Forum Topic

20mph TYRANNY

The Daily Mail is, of course, famous for its ridiculous stories and silly headlines, but this one is its best ever: Tears of Prime Suspect writer Lynda la Plante  - the latest victim of the 20mph TYRANNY The story tries to induce sympathy for serial offender La Plante, who had managed to build up the staggering total of 24 points on her licence through speeding, mostly in 20mph areas As a result, she was banned from driving for six months. The whole story is worth reading, not least for a hilarious sob story that it would stop her from driving her beloved dog for his training walks – and she couldn’t hire a driver because she needed silence on her journeys (why she couldn’t just ask them to be quiet wasn’t explained) and, most absurd of all, her lawyer’s explanation that she had inadvertently broken the speed limit (at least 5 times) whilst concentrating on driving safely! https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-16024699/Prime-Suspect-writer-Lynda-La-Plante-breaks-tears-handed-driving-ban-end-career.html

Richard Carter ● 1d35 Comments

As Richard and Jonathan appear to be so troubled by vehicles going over 20mph. Why are you both not standing in the High street watching bikes and scooters shooting through the lights at great speed nearly hitting residents. This has now got beyond a joke, they don't even look at the lights. Why don't you both go and sit in the window of the coffee shop at the end of Chelverton Rd and watch residents nearly being run over.

Barbara Stevens ●

The whole saga of the 20 mph limit in Wandsworth perfectly demonstrates how a small minority can tyrannise over the majority in a democracy. It begins when a group of anti-car zealots with time on their hands canvass local councillors. The council then pretends to engage in a public consultation exercise  by uploading a poorly advertised online survey to which around 1% of residents respond. When 59% of the tiny number of respondents vote in favour, the council concludes that the new speed limit enjoys majority support and the 20 mph signs go up everywhere in the borough. Reasonable objections to the blanket limit are then dismissed by a series of arguments ranging from disingenuous to just plain rude, as this thread aptly demonstrates.

Steven Rose ●

What has right wing got to do with anything, you and Richard Think anybody who argues with you are right wing. Have you actually asked a manufacturer whether this slow driving effects their vehicles. It can affect your exhaust,  because we keep getting told to clear the exhaust and drive faster, so have to go down the A3 faster till it clears. May be slow down side roads, but to expect somebody to drive at 20 an experienced driver it is really irritating. Obviously Jonathan and Richard are not.

Barbara Stevens ● 47m

or 99% or so of residents were not that bothered.Hand your license in old man, if you can't manage to abide by speed limits it's time to stop driving before you hurt someone.

Michael Brigo ● 8h

"I simply don’t believe that you or anyone can drive at a steady 20mph"Nobody is asking you to drive at a steady 20, they are just telling you not to exceed 20. If you can't cope with that then you can't cope with not exceeding 30 or 40 and it's time you turned your license in.I would say "it comes to us all at some point" but I suspect once i'm your age it will all be robotaxis anyway.

Michael Brigo ● 8h

The ‘public consultation’ justifying the imposition of the 20 mph speed limit in Wandsworth consisted of an online survey. Out of 3382  responses,  1995 residents  said they were in favour. The number of  residents in the borough is 337, 655. In other words, the limit was introduced on the say so of 0.59 % of the residents. Truly, democracy in action!

Steven Rose ● 8h

Apologies, I posted this in the wrong place, higher up the thread: it should be here:The mistake Steven and others make is to regard 20mph as a target, when it isn't, it's a limit. Which means that it is perfectly in order to aim to drive at around 18mph so that you have a little spare in hand, so to speak. And at first it might seem strange, keeping below 20mph when you're used to driving at 30mph or more, but in fact you very soon get used to the lower speed. Just remember that it's about the safety of other road users, especially the more vulnerable ones. And please drop this absurd notion, one of the great myths of motoring, that to keep within 20mph you have to drive whilst keeping your eyes glued to the speedometer. It's ridiculous, as no one says that about 30mph, 40mph or any other speed limit. It's a crackpot idea that doesn’t survive a moment's rational thought.

Richard Carter ● 8h

The mistake Steven and others make is to regard 20mph as a target, when it isn't, it's a limit. Which means that it is perfectly in order to aim to drive at around 18mph so that you have a little spare in hand, so to speak. And at first it might seem strange, keeping below 20mph when you're used to driving at 30mph or more, but in fact you very soon get used to the lower speed. Just remember that it's about the safety of other road users, especially the more vulnerable ones. And please drop this absurd notion, one of the great myths of motoring, that to keep within 20mph you have to drive whilst keeping your eyes glued to the speedometer. It's ridiculous, as no one says that about 30mph, 40mph or any other speed limit. It's a crackpot idea that doesn’t survive a moment's rational thought.

Richard Carter ● 8h

Jonathan, I simply don’t believe that you or anyone can drive at a steady 20mph. There must be brief periods when you exceed the limit before adjusting your speed. That is why prosecutions over minor instantaneous infractions of the speed limit are inherently unfair. A much more sensible approach is to measure average speed.Your claim that the imposition of speed limits is entirely non-political is belied by your characterisation of critics of speed restrictions as ‘right wing’.

Steven Rose ● 9h

An interesting article on the 20mph limit:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8e94pe6w9roIs the problem psychological? After years of driving at 30+ mph, 20 mph just seems too slow? After all,why should it be more difficult to drive at a steady 20 mph than 30 mph?I also wonder if the gear ratios on most manual cars were designed with a 30 mph minimum cruising speed in mind? If so, electric cars which don't have gears and new models with speed assist, plus newly qualified drivers will be trained in obeying the new lower limit, and their insurance company may insist on a black box to monitor their driving ... or they will if they're caught speeding!

Michael Ixer ● 9h

Steven, I didn’t advise anybody or anything. The advice letters were written by the police not me. I just held the speed gun.If there’s any ideology involved in the pros and cons of 20 limits, it’s on the side of the critics, often right wing, who dislike any infringements of their “right” to drive as fast as they want where they want. I can’t see any ideology involved in promoting safer roads - even the Tory council agreed safety issues were non-political - so I fail to understand your point.In West Putney there were two consultations about the 20 limits. This was the first part of Putney to get the 20 limit on a zonal basis. The first one proposed the limit with enforcement through speed bumps, chicanes etc. it passed with a bare majority. Then a revised plan was put to residents: 20 limits with no physical enforcements of any sort, just signs. It passed with a large majority and that is what was brought in.Later, the council was persuaded to propose a borough-wide scheme and that of course went to a borough-wide consultation. It passed - 20 limits are generally very popular, especially on residential roads. Nothing ideological there either.As far as I can tell, from a considerable distance, the process in Wales was badly handled and the government lost the confidence of the people. But that loss of confidence involved many other issues, not just the speed limit.If I can drive my car at 20 then anyone should be able to. It’s just a matter of concentration.

Jonathan Callaway ● 10h

I think Ivonne has explained the problem very well, Michael.

Steven Rose ● 10h

Hello Jonathan,I find sticking to 20mph not that easy, hence I am checking on my speedometer all the time.  Coming down Putney Hill from Tibbet's Corner makes it more difficult as you are going downhill. I keep checking as I can go up to 22 or 23mph very quickly....  My car does have a speed limiter, but it only works above 30mph.....  We have a speed indicator device on our road and it very rarely shows green smiley face....  It mostly shows the speeds above 21mph in red but does not show the speed if speeds are above 30 - on a 20mph road.....  "Telling" the driver with signs to slow down are as useless as a chocolate teapot....  Grrrr 

Ivonne Holliday ● 10h

"it is impossible for any driver to stick rigidly to a 20mph limit without the aid of a special maximum speed function on the car"Go on then, tell us why it's impossible, I literally cannot wait.

Michael Brigo ● 11h

Jonathan, it is impossible for any driver to stick rigidly to a 20mph limit without the aid of a special maximum speed function on the car. Indeed it would be dangerous even to try to maintain this limit (or any fixed limit) since drivers would need to keep their eyes more or less permanently fixed on the speedometer rather than on the road. So your advice to fine people if they minimally exceed 20mph, allowing no leeway, seems ideological rather than practical.The backlash that has followed the Welsh government’s imposition of a blanket 20 mph limit in built up areas in the principality suggests that the policy was introduced at the instigation of zealots at the Senedd without proper public consultation. I am not aware that there has been any public consultation in Wandsworth. It is perfectly true that there have been significantly fewer road accidents in Wales since the limit has been in force, but it is quite possible that this could have been achieved by reducing the speed limit on the most dangerous roads, particularly residential streets, rather than imposing a blanket limit which has provoked widespread frustration and annoyance.

Steven Rose ● 12h

Hello IvonneYes, 20 on residential roads is what we (the Putney Society) campaigned for but it has since been extended to some but not all main roads. Speeding is enforced by both the cameras and the police. All fines, Sue please note, go to central government so there is no agenda to add to the council’s or the mayor’s revenues. I took part in a speed check exercise some years ago, with PCSOs and a local councillor, on Westleigh Ave before the speed bumps were put in place. We had a speed gun that recorded speed only (no photos) and the PCSOs recorded the reg numbers of the fast ones. Everyone doing 24 or more got an advisory letter but the few real speeders (top speed that day was 41mph!) may have got a sterner letter. No prosecutions, on this occasion at least. Some of the drivers were stopped and got a lecture. Enforcement is a problem though. I remember photographing a set of skid marks by a mini roundabout on Chartfield. They changed direction where there had obviously been a collision, but they continued through a fence into a local resident’s drive where their car was damaged. Whoever it was must have doing WAY over 20.  The police agreed to step up spot speed checks thereafter but it was a token effort. There does seem to be a lack of consistency about when to fine a speeder. Some get a ticket at 22, most at 24 or above. The answer? Stick to 20, it’s not difficult!

Jonathan Callaway ● 13h

Hello Richard,I totally agree with residential roads having a 20mph limit.  I disagree totally and utterly with Roehampton Lane being made a 20mph.  The A3 end of Roehampton Lane is a dual carriage way until the intersection with Roehampton High Street.  There are two cameras coming from the A3, one just after the turning and another by Clarence Lane.  Nothing thereafter, even if there is a hospital and a very big school.  As you know, I also disagree with that speed limit on certain stretches of URR and LRR.  By the way, I was "caught" by the camera on Putney Hill just before Chartleigh Av driving at 24mph.  So, I did  the speed awareness course.  When I said that speed is enforced by the Police who gives a margin of tolerance of 10% + 2 I was told that the Highway Code states clearly speed limits. I replied that the Highway Code does not enforce speed but the police do.  I agreed that the camera on Putney Hill is "administered" by TfL which obviously is programmed for speeds of 23mph and above.  So, as a result, we have a few tiers of enforcement which I believe is wrong.When Community Roadwatch carried out various speed checks on our residential road, they never considered anything under 25mph.  I carried out a count of traffic on one instance during the 1 hour the officers were there.  I prepared an Excel table with the relevant information and sent it to the Council.  Their response was that 82% of the cars were compliant and I replied that the statistics showed there was a speeding car every 73 seconds (number of speeding cars over time).  Silence.But now cameras are programmed for for different speeds, some above 21mph, others above 22mph and others above 23mph.    It is a true mess and totally unacceptable.

Ivonne Holliday ● 15h

Well in my opinion they are NOT a tyranny and I am perfectly entitled to that opinion and particularly entitled since so many people seem to be totally incapable of driving anywhere close to any stipulated MAXIMUM speed.  It seems many people do not like or want any changes in their lives but in truth we all have to change as we go along and adapt to new circumstances.Many people do not seem to know the UPDATED Highway Code or even adhere to road signs and we should all read it - it has information on road rules for ALL of us on the roads not just drivers and following an updated version of the Highway Code would mean we were all safer on the road and less likely to make bad decisions ie WE have to change.  If we were to end up in court those  Highway Code rules will get taken into account.  The 20 on a speed sign is a MAXIMUM speed limit not minimum yet it doesn't seem to be treated as that.  Cars and bikes themselves CANNOT see around corners yet are propelled around them as if they could.I think everybody driving in a country they are not used to and with different rules to the one in which I would hope they actually took and passed a driving test should also take a British driving test having studied the updated Highway Code.I do think that signs should be clearly visible and sensible and a lot of them are not.  If the signs are not clear then there should be a way of easily assessing and addressing that rather than creating ill-will.  Those road signs that alert you as to how fast you are actually travelling are good at that although I understand are expensive to install. Maybe new technology will change that.  Those would be good where there has been a speed change.There certainly used to be two Maximum Speed Signs in Oxfordshire somewhere literally a couple of feet from each other giving two completely different speeds.  Not a place you could stop and take a photo unfortunately.Road signs should not be obscured by overgrown trees and hedges and should not be placed so low over cycle lanes making the cycle lanes unusable. Somebody somewhere should be checking this and people should be able to alert the authorities easily when they see this.  www.fixmystreet.com used to be good for things like this because they could do the work of finding out where exactly to send the report and you could check on whether other people had reported something and on the results of any reports. All cyclists should have speedometers IMO AND pass a test!  And those illegal electric ones which can travel over 15mph should be either licensed and registered as motorcycles and be travelling on the road or be crushed.  Their riders should take tests.  Shops selling these bikes should be prosecuted.

Philippa Bond ● 15h

@PhilippaWell in my opinion they are a tyranny.  You really must accept that you are not always right about everything Philippa even though you are obviously convinced that you are.🙄  The hectoring, lecturing tone of many of your posts is extremely patronising too so you shall now be known as ‘Patronising Philippa’! 😽

Sue Hammond ● 17h

I think the safety case for 20 mph speed limits is difficult to argue - unless one consider the economic benefits of a few additional road deaths a worthwhile trade off. I rarely drive these days but one of the last times I used a Zipcar it took over an hour to drive from Croydon to Euston, then to Putney circa 11pm, and recently a morning minicab journey taken by friends from East Putney to St Pancras took an hour and a half; traffic, bus lanes, reconfigured junctions, etc seem to impose a natural traffic speed of less than 20 mph! (Sensible for them as one has mobility issues so with luggage public transport would be a problem. ) Interestingly, minicab drivers constantly on the road and not known for their tardiness seem to cope with 20 mph limits, otherwise they'd lose their jobs ...I do wonder if use of stick (fines from cameras) rather than carrot (education, cheap public transport, investment in tube lifts, etc) would help with acceptance of speed limits, LTNs, box junctions, etc? Perhaps feed some money from fines back into subsidising public transport? And is it now time to add duty and VAT on aviation fuel in addition to APD?Errant cyclists are another problem: I nearly got taken out by a cyclist whizzing though a red light at Wigmore Street - another cyclists stopped at the lights exclaimed "that was a bit close!" (Normally I'm more alert, but I was puffed after running up a static escalator at Bond Street - I'm assuming it wasn't a planned "hit job" by someone on this forum :-)!)

Michael Ixer ● 18h

20mph zones ARE NOT a tyranny.  Signs need to be clear and simple because there are so many of them and we are not getting any cleverer.  If they are not clear we should be complaining about them to get them made clear.  Sometimes where a change has been made there is an additional sign erected for a time to show that but whether that helps will depend on how often you use a route.  It may only be an outrageous newspaper headline that alerts us!We are being bombarded by media headlines designed to be both divisive and objectionable as a divisive and self-serving attempt to get us to click on them/get readers.  It wouldn't be surprising if all those rubbish headlines however they are generated are causing some part of that intellectual decline as we get tired of looking for the truth past the headline and stop reading!

Philippa Bond ● 19h

Hello Steve,It is very well known, and documented but do not have time to provide links now, that the box in the junction of New Kings Road and Wandsworth Bridge Road makes fortunes for H&FBC.  That is just one example.

Ivonne Holliday ● 19h

Back to topic.Generally scathing about the 20mph tyranny because in my opinion it has been expanded far too much and is being implemented mainly for generating income.  However I have no sympathy for La Plante because she is a prolific offender and her mitigation excuses were risible.  I note that she employed ‘Mr Loophole’ as her defence counsel- well his reputation has taken a severe knock with this failure.  In my opinion LP got off lightly and she can well afford a chauffeured service for the next 6 months.A fair numbers of the lycra brigade cycle in excess of the 20mph limit so when are they going to be fined, and repeat offenders banned from cycling?

Sue Hammond ● 19h

What has the last post got to do with speed limit. Why change posts just because you want an argument. This is England.

Barbara Stevens ● 20h

" perhaps you think that only the Palestinian version of events should be reported?"Not at all but it's noticeable how Israel never manages to give any evidence for their 'alternative facts'

Michael Brigo ● 20h

In March this year the High Court ruled that Croydon Council had unlawfully used Low Traffic Neighbourhoods as a means of raising revenue through fines rather than for any environmental benefit. Thus the idea that councils use traffic violations as a money earner is not 'a well worn worn right wing myth' but an established fact. Or do you dispute the High Court judgment?As to Israel, my point is that frequently the media take statements by Palestinian sources, even from Hamas, as established fact. I was merely pointing out that according to Israel the warehouses were being used by Hamas to store weapons. But perhaps you think that only the Palestinian version of events should be reported?

Steven Rose ● 21h

You used the word fact, I disputed it.On any Israel thread your immediate response is "Israel disputes" this - and at that point any evidence to the contrary is negated by you.Anyway, back to the 20mph limit - I cycle everywhere and I'm very much in favour of it :)

Michael Brigo ● 22h

Also the speed does suddenly change from 30 to 20 and not very clear.

Barbara Stevens ● 23h

Very strange would let me go into forum on computer, had to use phone.  If you have to continually use Kingston Hill, must be really frustrating for her. We go that way often to our boat club the blasted stumps down the road allowing cyclists is also annoying as they suddenly appear from nowhere.  It's alright certain people who don't go that way think its a joke her getting trouble. But are you forgetting its is going up a hill.

Barbara Stevens ● 23h

What does 'me disputing something is enough for you to give me the benefit of the doubt' mean? And what facts are you disputing?

Steven Rose ● 1d

"So not a ‘well worn right wing myth’ but a fact."I dispute those facts. As per your post on the genocide thread, me disputing something is enough for you to give me the benefit of the doubt.thanks

Michael Brigo ● 1d

The Welsh government, following widespread protests, has agreed to withdraw its blanket limit of 20 mph in built up areas. From September councils will be free to revert to a 30 mph on selected arterial and residential roads. This policy reversal suggests that the proposal was misconceived in the first place. Yes, it is clearly true that 20 mph is safer than 30 mph. But 15 mph would be safer than 20 mph and 10 mph would be safer still. You have to to strike a balance.You can be fined for minimally exceeding the 20 mph limit. Just recently a North London psychiatrist, Dr Gary Duffield, received 9 points for doing, 22, 22 and 25 mph.You are right about speeding fines. The money goes to central government. However fines for other infractions such as yellow box entry and banned turns do fill council coffers. A Freedom of Information disclosure regarding London boroughs such as Hammersmith and Fulham revealed internal emails celebrating high fine volumes and discussing traffic revenue targets. So not a ‘well worn right wing myth’ but a fact.

Steven Rose ● 1d

Actually, it was never every road in Wales, it was every road in a built up area - where 30 might have been the limit anyway. The statistical evidence proving that 20 is safer than 30 is easily available through a quick online search. It’s irrefutable. Wandsworth, incidentally, was the first Tory council in London to adopt a borough-wide 20 limit on residential roads. It had been resisted because previously only Labour or LibDem councils had adopted 20 limits. You can thank the Putney Society for this - they started campaigning around 2005 for 20 limits and it took about 10 years to get there. Having said that, the active support of one or two local (Tory) councillors was crucial. As for sticking to a 20 limit, it is as easy as sticking to any other limit. Most car speedometers indicate a slightly higher speed than your actual speed. Check it when you next pass a sign that tells your speed. Fines are not levied until you’re doing 24 (I am assured).  And claims that speed limit fines are imposed for  revenue generation purposes is a well worn right wing myth. Yes, myth. Yes, right wing and evidence-free. How can anyone not see those dayglo yellow boxes, like the one on Parkside?

Jonathan Callaway ● 1d

Actually, Jonathan, it is not always possible to avoid a speeding ticket by obeying the speed limit. Unless your vehicle has a maximum speed function, it is impossible to maintain a steady 20 mph.  At some point you will inevitably exceed the limit, usually because a slight incline in the road makes the car goes faster. And before you notice and adjust your speed, you can be photographed at 21 mph and fined.The imposition of universal 20 mph limits by local authorities is often unrelated to the dangers inherent in the roads themselves. On what basis, for example, did the Welsh government try to impose a 20 mph limit on all roads in the principality? The whole thing seems driven by a mixture of  cynicism and ideology. It gives local councils an opportunity both to swell their coffers by fining drivers and to advertise their concern for road safety.

Steven Rose ● 1d

Call me old fashioned but isn’t it possible to avoid a speeding ticket by sticking to the speed limit?In her case a six months ban for accumulating 24 points is lenient indeed.  In my court that many points would have got her 12-18 months!  I understand her lawyer, Mr Loophole, is even more expensive than the fines she received. This is the silly season indeed when this makes the front page of any newspaper, even the Mail! It’s not as if there aren’t any number of more serious problems out there: out of control wildfires everywhere, intractable conflicts in Ukraine and the Gulf, you name it.

Jonathan Callaway ● 1d