Forum Topic

War crimes

Can anyone think of a previous occasion where somebody has announced in advance they are going to commit a war crime?"If the Hormuz Strait is not immediately “Open for Business,” we will conclude our lovely “stay” in Iran by blowing up and completely obliterating all of their Electric Generating Plants, Oil Wells and Kharg Island (and possibly all desalinization plants!), which we have purposefully not yet “touched.” - The Orange One.

Michael Brigo ● 27d72 Comments

You really do have selective memory in that this conflict as you well know did NOT start on 7 October 2023.  The tolerance to the treatment and behaviour towards a part of the population had been heavily strained for years.If the Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin who could have brought peace to the had not been assassinated by an Israeli there might have been peace in the area.  Jews can and still do live all over world - not just in Israel however easy or difficult entry restrictions are made for those acceptable that Govt - from your comments you'd think they didn't.  We have freedom of religion here - and why not? Are you really saying it would been better for Britain not to have gone to war with Germany?  That country was once much further away from us travelwise.  I'm sure many families would have preferred not to have lost so many family members and not to have had the experiences of war that they did have.

Philippa Bond ● 21d

‘I should have used the term 'paddies' ….’Again, John, there is some confusion here. We would not normally refer to ourselves as Paddies or Boyos, as I pointed out previously, I think the term you might be struggling to find is ‘the lads’ or ‘the boys’. I guess, as a graduate of English lang. & lit. (Grade 2.1 - pending verification) you would be keen to be precise in your terminology; no bother,  I’m very happy to help. Of course, it would be far more beneficial if you took a trip over to Ireland to see for yourself; remember, it’s 45 minutes by plane and very reasonably priced by Ryanair - if you book in advance. You might want to reign in some of your more ‘1970’s’ lingo when you’re there, but the lads will soon sort you out. Oh, and yes, you are completely correct; The Republic of Ireland is a separate, sovereign state! Or, foreign, if you prefer, depending on your perspective.

Gerry Boyce ● 22d

Boycie'By the way, as far as I am aware, ‘boyos’ is generally associated with Wales; you might be a little confused there. No biggie! Definitely not something that is worth getting your manikini in a mess about'.You are correct.Of course the Welsh are British.I should have used the term 'paddies' to refer to the Irish who whilst seemingly having some right to abide in the UK as you yourself do, are of course from a foreign country.I again note yet another of your not very subtle anal references and your fascination with other men's clothing.Do you not think you need some form of counselling ?

John Hawkes ● 22d

Thank you, John. You see, it wasn’t that difficult. We can now close the file on ‘holes in the road’ for the time being.By the way, as far as I am aware, ‘boyos’ is generally associated with Wales; you might be a little confused there. No biggie! Definitely not something that is worth getting your manikini in a mess about. So that just leaves your views on Fulham outstanding.

Gerry Boyce ● 22d

Boycie'That’s you all over, John, over adamant, over- certain, and blissfully unaware of your own ignorance. That aside, you’re very prone to over-promise and under-deliver; not one update on the hole you promised to keep an eye on, and not one word on Fulham or kickball that you encouraged Steve to limit himself to!.Final update on the hole in the road in Southfields.It is now filled and traffic flowing smoothly.But I thought I had reported this fact and offered sincere thanks to you and the boyos for the effort you put in ?The rest of your comment just seems to read as hyperbolic verbiage."Sort yourself out" !But at least you have stopped posting comments relating to your anal fetishism !

John Hawkes ● 22d

Steven'I think that Arteta's main problem is that over half the first team are carrying injuries and had to withdraw from the recent internationals'.I don't shed too many tears for Arteta's selection problems as he has been given and spent a small fortune to build up what are effectively two first team squads.But today it's all about real sport namely the Varsity Boat Race taking place figuratively at least on our doorstep.Amateur, no bland 'management' interviews, no excuses for losing, genuine respect and handshakes between winners and losers, training done alongside study and a unique coming together of brain and brawn.Perhaps the last example of a great British sporting and educational tradition.COYDBs !🚣🚣🚣🚣🚣🚣🚣🚣

John Hawkes ● 22d

‘ Doubtless …..’‘….I have no doubt….’That’s you all over, John, over adamant, over- certain, and blissfully unaware of your own ignorance. That aside, you’re very prone to over-promise and under-deliver; not one update on the hole you promised to keep an eye on, and not one word on Fulham or kickball that you encouraged Steve to limit himself to! Sort yourself out!

Gerry Boyce ● 22d

Boycie'I suspect that anyone with a shred of humanity would look in horror at the callous, barbaric punishment that was dished out on Dresden, and continues to be inflicted on Gaza….and now on Lebanon too.'Notice anything in common with these incidents ?Of course.Carried out during a period of war by people being attacked by right wing religious or quasi-religious fascists who have the stated aim of annihilating them.Doubtless in WWII you would have marched in support of the Nazis, which by its claim of neutrality, is effectively what the Irish actually did.And you would have campaigned I have no doubt, for Churchill to be tried as a 'war criminal'.

John Hawkes ● 22d

I think that Arteta's main problem is that over half the first team are carrying injuries and had to withdraw from the recent internationals.

Steven Rose ● 23d

Yes, Steve, listen to John, at long last he is making sense. You focus on Arsenal and he’ll focus on Fulham; everyone’s winner!

Gerry Boyce ● 23d

That’s a very interesting post, Michael.I suspect that anyone with a shred of humanity would look in horror at the callous, barbaric punishment that was dished out on Dresden, and continues to be inflicted on Gaza….and now on Lebanon too.

Gerry Boyce ● 23d

Mr Rose'Hamas could have avoided the death and destruction by returning the hostages and laying down their arms'.I am afraid you will never win this argument with those that are supporters of racist antisemitic Islamists.To them Jewish Israelis are the scum of the earth and Islamic Palestinians are poor, oppressed and downtrodden.Their supporters are genetically predisposed to this view and logic will never overcome this.I think you should turn your attention to advising Arteta on how to keep his nerve in the run up to the end of the season.And I will weigh up whether Silva thinks the Khans are as much interested in FFC as they are in the gourmet dining experiences on offer in the new Riverside stand and as such he should renew his contract,

John Hawkes ● 23d

Boycie'My old man was in the RAF, he joined immediately after the war in 1946.'Good timing !What a patriotic risk taker 😁

John Hawkes ● 23d

Boycie'‘c’mon Rudolph, time to fly….did you just do a massive shite? Or is that stench coming from Steve?’Yet more of your anal fixation and male sexual fetishism.Are such perversions common in Ireland ?Is it because I understand the state religion does not allow its priests to marry which must to some extent influence its views on sexuality giving it a male and even school boyish perspective.Is that why you focus on this topic in such a crude and excremental way ?Having said that, I am sure Boycie is not typical of Roman catolics and as a bad apple in the barrel creates the possibility of giving normal everyday worshippers of this faith a bad name.

John Hawkes ● 23d

Ms Bond'"A tiny population in a small country doing nothing more than protecting itself from annihilation by neighbouring Islamic states waging a jihad."'Which part of my claim do you disavow ?How would you personally describe the situation Israel finds itself in ?Come clean and tell us.'Which planet are you on?'Oh and your cheap little asides are making you sound like Boycie.Are you in anyway related ?

John Hawkes ● 23d

Mr Ainsworth'In Hamas' awful attack of 7 October: 1,195 people were killed, of whom ~60% were civilians.In Israel's war on Gaza since that attack, over 72,000 Palestinians have been killed (over 20,000 were children), of whom ~80% were civilians. And the killing continues.From the safety in Putney, would you say this was the exercise of proportionate force?'In a war of aggression and survival there is no such thing as proportionate force nor is it a 'number's game' which is how you seem to view it. Did we apply such principles when fighting back against the Nazis in WWII, an earlier attempt of fascist and racist genocide ?Or perhaps you might have sided with that antisemitic enemy. What I can say from the safety of Southfields is that if I were the leadership of the Islamic Palestinian terrorist group Hamas I would not have started a war that any sane (sic) person would have known could not be won.You do the Palestinians no favours by supporting it and continuing to support their Charter calling for the annihilation of Israel from peaceful affluent West Putney.Purely out of antisemitic sentiment and a juvenile attempt to maintain a perverted image of progressivism.If the Palestinians want peace they should call for it and negotiate for it with Israel.And if the Iranians do, they should negotiate with Trump.And you should keep your nose out of the situation and stop stirring the pot.Not of course anyone other than your fellow travellers cares a toss what you think.

John Hawkes ● 23d

Boycie'Forget about the word-salad, John, how's your hole-watch going?'Sorry if a post that is an attempt at conveying a point of view and not, unlike yours, just a cheap personal shot that you think is witty, is a bit of a challenge for you.But then I guess English is not your native tongue.Regarding the roadworks carried out by SGN, please personally accept my thanks for the work you did in finally completing the work, and pass them on to the other paddies as you all leave to go back to the 'ol sod.

John Hawkes ● 23d

Gerry, my late father was a PoW for most of the war in a camp in Silesia, what is now part of Poland. He was always very uncertain about the fire bombing of Dresden, it might have hastened his release but at that stage in the war it may not have made much difference as Germany had essentially been defeated; it just seemed  vindictive to him. He always thought Dresden was a beautiful city - he didn't talk about it in detail but I believe his journey as a PoW from his capture in Crete to the PoW work camp in Silesia meant he passed through it. He certainly saw the devastation in eastern Germany when he had to make his way westward where he met up with (I think) an American army unit - after nearly losing his life to a Russian aircraft trying to shoot anything that moved!I have a feeling he'd like to think the international agreements we developed over the year meant civilians were treated better than then. He was always a great supporter of Israel because of the Nazi's treatment of Jews but I do wonder what his views would be of recent events given his doubts about the bombing of Dresden civilians.

Michael Ixer ● 23d

It goes without saying, Michael,that I don't regard deliberate targeting of civilians, let alone children, as justifiable. But that is not what the IDF did. They targeted Hamas fighters who were often firing from residential neighbourhoods, as a result of which civilians died. Hamas could have avoided the death and destruction by returning the hostages and laying down their arms.

Steven Rose ● 23d

'Some of the contributors to Putney Forum are old enough to have parents who fought in the war, maybe some of them in the RAF. I am sure they don’t regard their parents as war criminals or complicit in war crimes.'Everything is so black and white with you; this binary view of things is beyond tedious.My old man was in the RAF, he joined immediately after the war in 1946. He described the utter devastation of Europe in the post war years, the poverty and desperation of people trying to survive in cities that were completely decimated. He could quite easily hold the view that the RAF fought heroically to repel the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain, whilst simultaneously holding the view that what Butcher Harris and Bomber Command did in the last year of the war, particularly in Dresden, was far from the RAF's finest hour.I don't really get, at all, your attempt to justify the destruction of Gaza by referencing WW2. Please, do not try and explain it again, at least not for my benefit, it's a repugnant argument.

Gerry Boyce ● 23d

Meanwhile, Israel's version of the Brownshirts is busy wreaking havoc on the West Bank:https://edition.cnn.com/2026/03/31/middleeast/israeli-settler-attacks-tayasir-latam-intl

Richard Carter ● 23d

While Bomber Harris is now excoriated for his policy of ‘area bombing’, designed to weaken German morale, it is not true that the RAF is criticised for targetting military objectives as well as German industries, in the course of which hundreds of thousands of civilians died. On the contrary the RAF is considered to have made a vital contribution to the war effort. RAF veterans till recently marched in front of the .Cenotaph. Their medals, including those won by the Dam Busters, are admired on the ‘Antiques Road Show’. The Dam Busters film starring Michael Redgrave and Richard Todd is quite often shown on daytime television. Some of the contributors to Putney Forum are old enough to have parents who fought in the war, maybe some of them in the RAF. I am sure they don’t regard their parents as war criminals or complicit in war crimes. They are rightly proud of their parents’ contribution. Yet some of them are happy to brand the Israelis as criminals even though the IDF have made far more effort to avoid civilian casualties than the Allies.

Steven Rose ● 23d

Oh, by the way.  I totally agree with Macron's statement yesterday.  Paraphrasing, "less talking [from Trump] would help."

Ivonne Holliday ● 23d

Steven. So you consider the over 60,000 children estimated killed or maimed in Gaza possible Hamas supporters and hence legitimate targets? https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/two-years-hellish-war-have-devastated-gazas-childrenIsn't it just possible that a breeding ground has been created for the next generation of supporters of Hamas or similar terrorist groups amongst those who've survived? To me, it appears there's no longer term strategy for a lasting peace - the easiest approach must surely to be looking at a two state solution but with settlements expanding legally and with no constraints in the West Bank that looks increasingly unlikely? And whatever happened to the "Gaza Riviera" of Trump’s dreams?

Michael Ixer ● 23d

Ho Ho Ho! Fact checking Santa popping in once again:‘ British aircrew, such as those who carried out the Dam Busters raid in which around 1500 civilians were killed, including 1000 Russian slave workers, are regarded as heroes’. Steve is, yet again, using the passive tense to suggest this ‘opinion’ is widely held, when, in fact, it is his own amoral view of a disgraceful episode of the Second World War. Once again he reveals himself and his character that lacks so much. I am sure you are all well aware of Bomber Command and the reputation of Bomber Harris.‘c’mon Rudolph, time to fly….did you just do a massive shite? Or is that stench coming from Steve?’ Ha Ha Happy Easter folks!

Gerry Boyce ● 23d

Hello Steven,Apologies for this very delayed reply but it could not be helped.I'll answer you in the order of your post:1) Did the YouGov poll give a breakdown of respondents?  I mean, did they say how many were taxi drivers, UBER drivers, trades people who drive vans?  Or were the respondents just people who drive 4x4s for 1 mile down the road?2)  Are you the only person on the Forum whose political judgement is not influenced by like or dislike of politicians?  In my case, my dislike of Trump as a man is enormous.  But his nonsensical statements that he would stop the Russia-Ukraine war on his first day in office or that the Israel-US-Iran war would only take four weeks do not help. On your question, I was not aware that the ceasefire in Gaza worked. I seem to remember that the ceasefire came into effect and Israel continued bombing Gaza.Does Trump merit credit for anything that he does?  Of course he does, but  nothing of substance has yet materialized. As for the Trump Derangement Syndrome, please give us a break!  I think the one suffering from derangement syndrome is Trump himself!3) Israel is spearheading the attacks on Iran with the help of America that, by coincidence, is very interested in Iran's oil (as with Venezuela) and the stocks of uranium.  Is Iran constructing a nuclear bomb?  Where is the proof?  Negotiations with Iran did not fail, Trump withdrew from the  Iran nuclear agreement (also known as the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA)) in 2018 - he called it a global disaster.  Of course, it was an agreement signed by Obama and anything Obama did was a disaster in Trump's eyes....  That is a different line to the one you take.  Trump is no saint or saviour...4)  Why do we have to deal with Iran by means of a war?  The  JCPOA was working very well indeed.  We cannot go back to 2018 but, in all honesty, as the saying goes, "the pen is mightier than the sword" or, in this case, the bombs.  The regime in Iran is horrific but the only effective way to deal with it is by its own people getting rid of the regime.  The reason I mentioned the overthrow of Mossadegh is because there are many similarities - and some people in power do not - or choose not to - learn lessons from history, regardless of the century it happened.....  So, you wholeheartedly support Trump and Netanyahu.  It is your prerrogative.  As far as I am concerned, it is the quiet ones that worry me most and, in this instance, it means Russia and China.  Finally, NATO is a defensive organization by nature.  It is not an organization that is a lap dog to US's whims.  Trump's rudeness towards the UK and Europe is childish, reprehensible and certainly not statesmanly. 

Ivonne Holliday ● 23d

Richard, the IDF did not kill 70 000 civilians in Gaza. Many of the casualties were Hamas fighters, including some of the psychopaths who carried out the massacre of October 7. And not all the civilians killed were actually civilians. One of the freed hostages recounted that she was held in a apartment by a ‘journalist’. No one denies that the scale of death and destruction in Gaza was awful. But that does not prove that the IDF deliberately targeted the civilian population. If that were true, why did they give advance warning of their attacks? Michael, your point about carpet bombing no longer being acceptable implies that the IDF carpet bombed Gaza. This is simply not true. If they had done that, there would have been hundreds of thousands of casualties. I only introduced the issue of Allied bombing to make a point about hypocrisy and selective indignation. British aircrew, such as those who carried out the Dam Busters raid in which around 1500 civilians were killed, including 1000 Russian slave workers, are regarded as heroes,  their medals feted on the ‘Antiques Roadshow’, while the IDF are viewed as war criminals. Why is that? And what about Iran? The IRG probably killed around 40 000 peaceful protesters over two weeks in January, one of the worst massacres this century. Yet where are the protests on the streets of London? As I say, hypocrisy and selective indignation.

Steven Rose ● 23d

"A tiny population in a small country doing nothing more than protecting itself from annihilation by neighbouring Islamic states waging a jihad."Which planet are you on?  Are you sure you haven't been the subject of alien abduction?

Philippa Bond ● 23d

Even for a terrorist state that is vowed for your destruction?  Unfortunately Gaza and now Iran has been decades in the making with no political headway until the Abraham Accord.Peace is possible but not if Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map.

Robert Wheeler ● 24d

Just because something was acceptable 80 odd years ago it's necessarily so now.Carpet bombing of civilian infrastructure as both the allies and the nazi's did then would rightly be considered a war crime now.

Michael Brigo ● 24d

What a laughable response! "The IDF did not deliberately target civilians" yet, somehow, over 70,000 of them were killed by the IDF, including 248 journalists and media workers, 120 academics and over 224 humanitarian aid workers. In the first two years of the supposed use of proportionate force, more than 10 % of the population was killed or injured. And all you can do in trying to defend this is a cheap bit of whataboutery!

Richard Carter ● 24d

Unlike the Allies, who firebombed German cities in the Second World War, killing around half a million German civilians, the IDF did not deliberately target civilians, as is proved by the fact that they gave advance warning of planned attacks. Hamas could have prevented thousands of civilian deaths by a) allowing civilians to hide  in their tunnels (reserved for militants) and b) avoiding firing at the IDF from residential blocks, not to mention c) returning the hostages and d) laying down their arms.

Steven Rose ● 24d

In Hamas' awful attack of 7 October: 1,195 people were killed, of whom ~60% were civilians.In Israel's war on Gaza since that attack, over 72,000 Palestinians have been killed (over 20,000 were children), of whom ~80% were civilians. And the killing continues.From the safety in Putney, would you say this was the exercise of proportionate force?

Richard Carter ● 24d

Forget about the word-salad, John, how's your hole-watch going?

Gerry Boyce ● 24d

Steven'I don't believe for one moment that Richard or the other opponents of the attack on Iran or the campaigns in Gaza or Lebanon actually support Iran or Hamas or Hezbollah. 'I think you are too generous in your assessment.We should not forget the comments he has made.'Their one-sided neutrality, supposedly condemning all sides, but reserving the most vocal condemnation for the Israelis' is just a shady cover for their antisemitism which they define as nothing more than legitimate expression of 'anti-Israel' or 'anti-Zionism' beliefs and the supposed atrocities Jews have initiated.Whilst at the same time offering unswerving support for Islamists and Islamic states and their atrocities carried out in the name of 'freedom fighting'.For, with all of the horrors of global conflict occurring in Africa and the Middle East why do they focus sole attention on what Israel is doing ?A tiny population in a small country doing nothing more than protecting itself from annihilation by neighbouring Islamic states waging a jihad.We fool ourselves if we do not acknowledge that the surging rise of rampant antisemitism has now reached the shores of this country.And that its antisemitic propagators are as likely as not to be affluent, white, middle class, middle aged racist West Putneyites as they are to be poor, immigrant, uneducated and also racist, supported by a white demographic that can, apart from the religious aspect, be also so described.

John Hawkes ● 24d

John, I don't believe for one moment that Richard or the other opponents of the attack on Iran or the campaigns in Gaza or Lebanon actually support Iran or Hamas or Hezbollah. They prefer to adopt a position which might be called one-sided neutrality, supposedly condemning all sides, but reserving the most vocal condemnation for the Israelis  who from the safety of Putney they accuse of using disproportionate force. While paying lip service to the notion that Israel has the right to defend itself, in practice they condemn any measures taken by Israel to neutralise the threats it faces while they propose no alternatives themselves. According to this mindset Israel should simply put up with rocket attacks from Hezbollah, murderous incursions from Hamas and a potential nuclear threat from Iran.

Steven Rose ● 25d

Thank you, John, for clarifying you speak for yourself. Others can do likewise. As far as your hole-watch is concerned, I appreciate your updates and wait with bated breath to see how things develop.Have fun!

Gerry Boyce ● 25d

BoyciwBoycie''Who is the ‘we’ (wee?) you are referring to, John?'If I used the collective term 'we' in my post of 13:29:00 perhaps I should have used 'I'.Thank you for correcting me.I was perhaps wrongly believing that others had views similar to mine.Nice to see that your urology fetishism is unabated.But surely you can do better in trying to make it sound more a humorous penchant rather than a true expression of your personality, were you not to post what one might expect to see more likely written by a boy on the wall of a primary school toilet than coming from what I assume you to be, namely a grown man.On another matter, I have just spoken to your gangmaster and he assured me SGN roadworks will be complete and traffic flowing freely in Southfields in two days time.Of course if you had spent more time with your pick and shovel and less on puerile attempts at fetishist urological humour this would have finished already !☘️😁

John Hawkes ● 25d

You still haven’t answered the question, John. Flouncing about in your frillies does not constitute an answer. Who is the ‘WE’ you claim to be a mouthpiece for?

Gerry Boyce ● 25d

Mr Carter'Finally, we get, yet again, the confusion between what Iran (and Hamas, etc., etc.) says, which is it wants to destroy Israel and what it’s capable of doing – whilst Israel, having destroyed Gaza, is now doing the same thing in Lebanon. How easy it is for you to spout this nonsense while you’re “sitting in the comfort of Putney.”Hamas and other Palestinian groups are only incapable of fulfilling their Charter aim of annihilating Israel because they were defeated by it and crushed in a war they stupidly started in October 2023.A cause we know you share with them.Israel did not set out to destroy Lebanon which in the not too distant past was a multi-ethnic multi-religious haven of Western style civilised life amongst a neighbourhood of backward fascist Arab states.What Israel is doing is pushing back on and pre-emptively destroying the Iranian backed terrorist group Hezbollah which is intent on attacking and destroying it from southern Lebanon.A cause we know you support alongside your fellow West Putney freedom fighter and antisemite Mr Ainsworth.

John Hawkes ● 25d

Boycie'Who is the ‘we’ (wee?) you are referring to, John?'Thank you for yourself demonstrating and hence proving my description and explanation of your behaviour and personal inadequacies I made in an earlier post.

John Hawkes ● 25d

BoycieYou accuse Mr Rose of 'smugness, arrogance and whilst claiming yourself to be demonstrating 'etiquette'.Surely no one could accuse you of demonstrating any form of social etiquette regarding your posts on this Forum !'Smugness' however does sum you up, as well as 'arrogance' which sadly is not shown as being an attribute worthy of being attributed to you positively if based upon the quality of your posts and argument.  Perhaps better descriptions of you might be crude, common, vulgar, foul mouthed and being a bully boy who delights in delivering personal insult against those who disagree with him based upon some urological fetishism you seem to partake of. And thinks himself a wit !I am sure not someone who one would want to upset in a Dublin pub or even leafy West Putney !☘️😟

John Hawkes ● 25d

Who is the ‘we’ (wee?) you are referring to, John?

Gerry Boyce ● 25d

Mr Carter'I’ve stayed away from this forum for some time, and reading the tripe here from the usual suspects (Steven Rose, Robert Wheeler – but no Hawkes, and I thought he would have been wetting himself in excitement over all the bombing. Perhaps he was).'How nice to see you back on the Forum with a typically charming balanced and perceptive comment !I note that like Boycie you too are concerned over my physical well being.Both of you seem obsessed with matters urological.Somewhat perverted and creepy to my mind.Perhaps Ms Carter should try to obtain some NHS therapy for you regarding this.But I am sure you will be pleased to know I am perfectly fit and well though why any grown man (which is what I assume you are) should find another's health an appropriate subject for sarcastic comment does escape me.As regards the bombing of Iran I am all in favour of it providing it is done carefully and judiciously and causes less deaths of Iranians than the number they have already suffered from the hands of their own Islamic theocratic and unelected 'government' for their civil disobedience.And it restricts the efforts of Iran obtaining nuclear weapons with which to threaten Israel and the West in general, a point I have no doubt you would disagree with me upon.

John Hawkes ● 25d

Boycie'I've no idea where Steve gets off speaking on behalf of the people of Putney or Iran for that matter, but as far as I am concerned, if you want to know what I think, Steve is full of shite!'We do NOT wish to know what you think on this or any other matter.At least Mr Rose puts forward reasoned arguments concerning the issues he feels strongly about.We are free to agree or disagree with him again in a civilised and adult manner.All you can do is to counter with ignorant and yobbish posts that reveal exactly the type of person you are.Please stop degrading the Forum with your presence.

John Hawkes ● 25d

A quick response:1. You keep misunderstanding the phrase “the usual suspects.” It does not, as you falsely claim, imply criminal intent, it's just a normal, often used phrase: see, for example, the Cambridge Dictionary definition says it as “the people or things you would expect to be present somewhere or doing a particular thing.”2. Then you claim, ludicrously, that “there is no evidence that Trump intends to 'flounce' out of the war, leaving others to clean up his mess.“ But that’s exactly what he’s doing, saying it’s now up to the European countries to free the Strait of Hormuz. Let me remind you, before his foolish war the Strait was free. Remember Colin Powell's quoting of the Pottery Barn rule: “If you broke it, you fix it.”3. Finally, we get, yet again, the confusion between what Iran (and Hamas, etc., etc.) says, which is it wants to destroy Israel and what it’s capable of doing – whilst Israel, having destroyed Gaza, is now doing the same thing in Lebanon. How easy it is for you to spout this nonsense while you’re “sitting in the comfort of Putney.”

Richard Carter ● 26d

'A few points of etiquette to begin with.' Is there no end of Steve's talents? or smugness? Anyway, he is obviously struggling to work out what Trump might have done other than carry out a surprise aerial bombardment of Iran at the behest of Netanyahu.Given that there was no imminent threat of attack by Iran that would give Trump the unilateral authority to order immediate military action, he should have gone to Congress; they have the exclusive power to declare war, not the president. This was an illegal attack. If military action was indeed deemed necessary, and Congress had approved it, then a clear strategy should have been developed with clear aims and a rigorous risk analysis run.There should have been discussions with other countries to ensure they understood the reasons, the aims and the plans and could decide themselves how much they were prepared to engage with the endeavour.You know, basic competent planning......Instead, we get a complete shit-show; no plan, no clue, no legal authority; just an asshole in the Whitehouse threatening the Global economy, security etc and slagging off allies and telling them to get oil themselves if they want it, while Netanyahu bulldozes southern Lebanon and murders medics, journalists etc.And, to top it all, sanctions on buying oil from Putin have been lifted so he can carry on bombing the crap out of Ukraine and threatening Europe.Yes, Steve, I can see why you are so confused with the whole thing, but then again, you're the guy who wanted the BBC to fly tout-suite over to Trump to pay him 10 billion dollars. You're smugness, arrogance and 'etiquette' is doing a hell of a lot of heavy lifting in my opinion.

Gerry Boyce ● 26d

Well, Richard, you certainly made up for your recent silence on this issue.A few points of etiquette to begin with. There is no need to describe political opponents as 'the usual suspects'. Disagreeing with you is not yet a criminal offence. And I think 'says' would be a politer alternative to 'bleats' when reporting opinions contrary to your own. And  the reference to incontinence pants is nit funny, just disgusting.That said, let me engage with the substance of your post. First, there is no evidence that Trump intends to 'flounce' out of the war, leaving others to clean up his mess . On the contrary, he is threatening to invade Kharg Island and attack power plants if the Iranians don't agree to abandon their military nuclear programme and stop arming terrorists.Secondly, it is all very well for you sitting in the comfort of Putney to say that Iran represents no threat to Israel. That is not how the majority of Israelis see it and neither would you if you lived in Israel. Iran has repeatedly said that it wishes to wipe 'the Zionist entity' off the map. It has financed and armed terrorist groups which have continually attacked Israel. And it is a short technical step away from producing a nuclear bomb. Do you really think that is a threat which can be ignored?

Steven Rose ● 26d

I’ve stayed away from this forum for some time, and reading the tripe here from the usual suspects (Steven Rose, Robert Wheeler – but no Hawkes, and I thought he would have been wetting himself in excitement over all the bombing. Perhaps he was). Trump bleats that his NATO allies haven’t joined in his foolish war, but NATO, he should be reminded, is a North Atlantic defensive alliance, so there was no reason for it to become involved in an aggressive war far away from the North Atlantic that he didn’t even think to inform it that he was undertaking. And now he proposes to flounce away, inviting us to clear up the mess he has created! And I’m sick of reading the excuse that Iran wanted to eliminate Israel when it had no possible chance of even beginning to do. Before all this happened, Iran was a very long way from developing a nuclear bomb (despite Netanyahu’s endless claim of the last 30 years that it was weeks away from that), so the excuse that the threat was “imminent” is simply false. The regime in Iran is vile, make no mistake and I’d be perfectly happy to see it replaced, but stupidly bombing it from the air and hoping that would work was a fool’s errand, as was failing to realise that Hormuz Strait was a disaster waiting to happen. But no, whatever stupidity Trump undertakes is breathlessly applauded by the dismal trio (well, duo at the moment, pending a fresh supply of incontinence pants); the latest farce is all too likely to end in disaster, but no criticism of the perpetrator is contemplated.

Richard Carter ● 26d

Apologies Steven but will have to answer tomorrow at some stage.  Thank you.

Ivonne Holliday ● 26d

On the contrary, Ivonne, I do pay attention to what you and others write and indeed I quoted Michael’s actual words in my earlier post.1) I have no doubt that people are concerned about a range of economic consequences of the war. But it is not ridiculous to suggest that pump prices loom large. In fact the YouGov poll found that 69% of respondents mentioned petrol prices as having the greatest impact on their lives with unspecified costs coming in second at 12% and next heating bills at 11%.2) I am sure that you are capable of distinguishing between Trump the man and Trump the president. But personal dislike tends to influence political judgment. Just to take one example, how many contributors to the Forum have paid tribute  to Trump for bringing about a ceasefire in Gaza? The reason, I suspect, is that most of those who opposed Israel’s campaign in Gaza simply cannot bring themselves to give Trump credit for anything, no matter what he does. That is what is meant by Trump Derangement Syndrome.3) America is helping Israel defend itself from Iran as well as doing the rest of the world a favour. Are you happy that Iran is a short step away from constructing a nuclear bomb? If not, what do you think should be done about this,  negotiations having failed.4) Obviously you don’t support the Iranian regime. No civilised person could possibly support a bunch of murderers and thieves. But I am afraid Trump and Netanyahu are running the only game in town. If you don’t want them to deal with Iran, who is going to do it? The reference to Britain’s intervention over seventy years ago to overthrow Mossadegh is irrelevant. That (disastrous)  intervention was to remove a democratically elected leader. One of the aims in this case is to remove a tyrannical regime which murders its own citizens, which is why so many Iranians have supported the attack despite the obvious danger to themselves from missile strikes.I don’t underestimate the dangers of the American- Israeli intervention. It is is not clear that the Americans have a plan. But something has to be done to curb  if not remove the current Iranian regime.

Steven Rose ● 26d

Oh, Steven, it appears that you hear what you choose to and not what is being said to you.1)  People are concerned about the effect of increased fuel prices.  As I said before:  "It will affect all distribution services, be it food (due to higher oil prices and increased costs of fertilizers), drinks, clothes as well as delivery services from online shopping, just to name a few." Are you saying they should not be worried about this?2)  Trump is a bully and I dislike him enormously as a person.  But I am not incapable of separating the character of a person with the actions he/she takes.  The fact that I disagree with the attack on Iran as it happened does not mean that I am incapable of rational thought.3) a)Netanyahu is a bully as well and is the PM of Israel. By the way, Trump is the President of the US.  That does not give them the right to attack a country (particularly Trump) on hearsay. 3) b) People are so supportive of Zelensky and Ukraine because the country was attacked by Russia.  Ring any bells?  Israel wants to defend itself - quite rightly too.  Is the US defending itself?  What about Trump's "we will bomb them and destroy them (or words to that effect)?I am no sympathiser of Iran's regime.  That does not automatically mean that I agree with Netanyahu or Trump. 4) "... but not to the point of wanting to do anything about it, especially if (it?) caused economic hardship here."  Steven, you really are the limit!!!  "Do anything about it?"  What would you do about it?  Imitate 1953 when Britain and the US deposed Mossadegh (democratically elected?) and installed the Pahalavis?  I believe then it was a CIA-MI6 coveted coup.  Was it called Operation Ajax?

Ivonne Holliday ● 26d

I don’t believe that opinion in Putney about the war is significantly different from the rest of the country. A YouGov poll conducted on 9 March suggests that opposition to the war has risen to almost 60% with only 25% supporting it. Given the cheering that broke out in Teheran when the first bombs dropped, it is not unreasonable to suggest the war is more popular in Teheran than Putney.

Steven Rose ● 26d

In your opinion Gerry.  I have often found Steven’s posts polite, coherent and relevant.Nobody has answered my question which was when Putin is declared the victor as he watches Europeans agonise over the legality of this war and invades another European country will NATO be able to defend it?What on earth will that do to the cost of living……

Robert Wheeler ● 26d

I've no idea where Steve gets off speaking on behalf of the people of Putney or Iran for that matter, but as far as I am concerned, if you want to know what I think, Steve is full of shite!

Gerry Boyce ● 26d

Your comments, Michael and Ivonne, illustrate my interpretation of opposition to the war in this country:1) People are concerned about the effect on fuel bills and petrol prices. My 2) 'Trump is a bully'. In other words, dislike of Trump is a factor in opposition to the war which he is conducting.3) 'Netanyahu is a bully as well'. Netanyahu is the PM of Israel and is responsible for its policies. So disapproval of Netanhahu amounts to disapproval of Israel's part in the war. I was not suggesting that people in Putney are prejudiced against Israelis per se, though one or two contributors to the Forum are anti-Zionist and borderline anti-Semites. But I do wonder why people are so supportive of Zelensky, who is fighting for his country's survival against Russia which aims to destroy Ukrainian sovereignty, yet so disapproving of Netanyahu, who has attacked a country which openly declares it wants to wipe Israel off the map, incites terrorist groups to attack Israel and is trying to build a nuclear bomb.4) No doubt people are sympathetic to the plight of Iranians oppressed by a murderous regime, but not to the point of wanting to do anything about it, especially if causes economic hardship here.

Steven Rose ● 26d

Meanwhile in Lebanon: Israel's military has said it will occupy a swathe of southern Lebanon even after the end of the war against the Hezbollah armed group, Defence Minister Israel Katz said. He said the return of more than 600,000 displaced Lebanese residents would be "completely prevented" until north Israel's security was ensured.Mr Katz added that "all the houses in the villages adjacent to the border in Lebanon will be demolished in accordance with the Rafah and Beit Hanoun model in Gaza, in order to remove once and for all the border-adjacent threats from the residents of the north".Also, two UN peacekeepers were killed and two injured in an explosion today in southern Lebanon, 24 hours after another UN Peacekeeper was killed and one injured  by a projectile.On Saturday, three Lebanese journalists were killed in a targeted Israeli strike in southern Lebanon; Ali Shoeib, a reporter for Hezbollah-affiliated Al Manar TV, and reporter Fatima Ftouni and her brother, cameraman Mohamed Ftouni, both from Al Mayadeen channel, were killed in the town of Jezzine.Lebanese President Joseph Aoun described it as a "brazen crime" that broke the "most basic rules" of international law by targeting reporters, "who are ultimately civilians performing a professional duty.This is the second time Israel has been accused of targeting journalists in Lebanon since the US-Israel war against Iran began a month ago.On 18 March, Al Manar reported its presenter Mohammad Sherri and his wife had been killed in an Israeli strike in Beirut while they were sleeping.Elsewhere, The World Health Organization said on ​Saturday that nine ‌paramedics were killed and seven others wounded in ​five separate ​attacks on health care in ⁠southern Lebanon.The latest ​incidents struck medical ​teams in five separate villages, WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom ​Ghebreyesus said in ​a social media post.Oh, and then Israel's parliament passed a law making the death penalty a default sentence for Palestinians convicted in military court of lethal attacks.Sixty-two politicians, including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, voted in favour and 48 against the bill, championed by far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir.So pretty much the same old same old from Israel. I suspect that asking asking Steve to "avoid making wild statements based on prejudice rather than facts" is like asking Norman Bates to stop cosplaying his mother. 

Gerry Boyce ● 26d

I totally agree with you, Michael Ixer.  Trump and Netanyahu are absolute bullies who, in my view, do not think with their brains.  Trump acts like a brat in full tantrum as the BBC rolling news show:Trump tells the UK and other countries "go get your own oil" from Strait of Hormuzhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jke9v9xv9tThinking that higher oil prices are concern of car owners only is, quite honestly, a ridiculous idea.  It will affect all distribution services, be it food (due to higher oil prices and increased costs of fertilizers), drinks, clothes as well as delivery services from online shopping, just to name a few.We have all been concerned about the Iranian people for some time.  That does not mean we support an attack on the country with no plan, no clear vision, just "we will bomb the leaders out of existence"..... After 4 weeks of attacks (was the war not going to last for only 4 weeks?) there is no end in sight and US boots are being sent to Iran; this does not bode well.This constant chorus of "antipathy to Israel" is as untrue as it is boring.  There is not antipathy to Israel or its citizens but I would agree a dislike of Netanyahu and his government.  They are two separate issues altogether which some people find very difficult to understand!!!Thank you for your post, Michael Ixer.

Ivonne Holliday ● 26d

Steven. Wrong. 1) Personally, as I don't own a car and can no longer use Zipcar, I'm not too concerned about petrol prices. Obviously,  we must all be concerned about the global impact on energy, fertiliser, etc availability which will hit the poorestin the world worst. 2) I dislike bullies and Trump is a bully. 3) I have sympathy for Israelis but consider Netanyahu a bully as well. I'm not sure upsetting one's neighbours is a good strategy. 4) I have reasons to be concerned about people in Iran but I'm unclear if this action is helping or will help them if the current regime survives. Difficult to predict how this will evolve.It looks like the US may walk away from the action. With regard to information, it's well reported that the Iranian authorities are restricting access to external news, whether by blocking external Internet links or jamming broadcasts such as the BBC's.Perhaps avoid making wild statements based on prejudice rather than facts?

Michael Ixer ● 26d

Steven, I think we have already agreed to differ on the best way forward. There is no doubt that the strategy of negotiation and containment was flawed but the current conflict isn’t going to change the mindset of the Teheran regime. The opposite, in fact. That’s the problem. Any better ideas that don’t include the current fruitless destruction of men and materiel while leaving the ideology and fanaticism intact are welcome. Trump and Netanyahu are not going to bomb the regime away much as we would all wish it to happen.

Jonathan Callaway ● 26d

No, Michael (Brigo). The Obama deal of 2015 only permitted Iran to purify uranium up to 3.67% for peaceful purposes and specifically prohibited purification to weapons grade level. So Iran, having stockpiled over 400 kilos of uranium purified to 60%, is clearly in breach of the agreement.The reason, Michael (Ixer), that the war is less popular in Putney than Teheran has nothing whatever to do with the internet. I would attribute the opposition in Putney to 1) concern over petrol prices, 2) dislike of Trump 3) antipathy to Israel and 4) practical indifference to the plight of the millions of opponents of the Iranian regime.

Steven Rose ● 26d

If it was necessary to launch this attack on Iran that implies Trump was wrong when he said the previous attack had destroyed Iran's nuclear capabilities in June 2025 - bad intelligence or lies? Perhaps the Israelis had better intelligence regarding the attack success?Looks like Trump could now terminate the action without any regime change or the Staight of Hormuz being opened? Perhaps people in Putney have better information on the global military, economic, energy, etc position than those in Iran without proper Internet and other media access? The US military action doesn't seem too popular with Gulf states being attacked by Iran, and I'm not sure the continued bombing of Tehran and elsewhere is that popular with Iranians - some in the UK and EU are trying to get relatives out of Iran ...I suppose one positive is that Europe may decide its safer for energy security to invest in renewable and  nuclear to end its dependency on hydrocarbons - that would be good for the planet, if not too late?

Michael Ixer ● 26d

Yes it did probably have to come to this as Irans mission was always to wipe an independent country of the map eg Israel.  You guys had no problem when it was Putin attempting to wipe out Ukraine but appear to have a problem with trying to o support a country that is defending itself from terrorism.Iran has the right to exist peacefully as does Israel.  You guys are so obsessed with Trump you cannot see the victor in all of this which is Putin.  Is NATO now strong enough if he chooses to invade his neighbours in Europe?

Robert Wheeler ● 26d

I'm afraid that is simply not the case. There was a treaty in place that ALL parties were happy with, it worked perfectly well and the IAEA always reported that Iran was in compliance, as did the Trump administration until Israel convinced it otherwise and Trump broke the treaty in 2018

Michael Brigo ● 26d

Your phrase, Jonathan, that 'it never needed to be like this' suggests that there was a better way. What exactly. Years of negotiation have led to nothing. Iran is a short step away from constructing a nuclear bomb, it still threatens to wipe Israel off the map, it continues to arm and fund terrorist groups and in January the regime murdered upwards of 40 000 of their pen citizens. The outcome of the war us still uncertain. In addition to Americans and Israelis I believe that millions of Iranians also hope for an American victory. One of the ironies is that the war is more popular in Teheran than Putney.

Steven Rose ● 26d

Agreed, Jonathan. Though be careful, you'll be accused of TDS ... it's easier than trying to justify why Trump - or Hesgeth - was/are correct and haven't created a global mess?

Michael Ixer ● 26d

After being bombed for a month the mood in Iran, or at least in the IRGC, is increasingly hardline. No realistic negotiations are underway, the war is unpopular everywhere in the world except Israel, and Trump has quite clearly painted himself into a corner. This is already an epic disaster. He has to fold or escalate. I hope it’s not the latter. If real negotiations take place both sides will have to back down from some of their demands. I don’t see any signs of that. We will be lucky to see any commitment by Iran on a), b), c) or d).  I wish I could be less gloomy but this is Trump’s disaster and much as he’d love to declare victory and walk away I don’t think Iran will let him. They actually have the whip hand now. It never needed to be like this.

Jonathan Callaway ● 26d

Wiping Israel off the map would be a crime against humanity. Attacking civilian installations such as power plants would be a war crime unless they are also used for military purposes. Here lies the problem. If the Iranian military uses the power grid to conduct operations, then destroying the grid may be deemed a military necessity under Article 53 of the Geneva Convention. That is why Ukraine has attacked Russian installations. But I agree that attacking desalination plants would almost certainly be deemed a war crime since the use of mass starvation and by extension mass thirst is outlawed as a weapon of war. Of course the solution would be a just peace. In my opinion this would involve Iran agreeing a) to stop developing a nuclear weapon b) to withdraw its threat to wipe Israel off the map c) to cease funding and arming terrorist groups and d) to end the slaughter of its own citizens.

Steven Rose ● 27d

I would suggest you check your definitions. Attacking civilian infrastructure like power plants and desalination plants is a war crime.

Michael Brigo ● 27d

Attacking oil wells and power plants is not a war crime. It’s an act of war, nasty, no doubt, but not criminal. Yesterday, for example, Ukrainian drones struck a Russian oil refinery. Hardly anyone in this country would protest about that.  Wiping Israel off the map, on the other hand, would most definitely be a war crime, genocide in fact. Given repeated threats of that kind it is not hard to understand why Israel has taken the opportunity to attack Iran before it actually develops a nuclear weapon.

Steven Rose ● 27d

Actually I thought of one!Iran has promised at various times to wipe Israel off the map - that's announcing a war crime in advance.So I guess the Orange one and the Iranians have more in common than they think

Michael Brigo ● 27d

Spain's government says its airspace is closed to US planes involved in attacks on Iran.Defence Minister Margarita Robles tells reporters the government refused to "authorise either the use of military bases or the use of airspace for actions related to the war".The ban on the use of military bases was announced in early March, prompting an angry reaction at the time from US President Donald Trump, who threatened trade retaliation against Spain.Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez has described the US and Israeli attack on Iran as reckless and illegal. Muy bien, Senor Sanchez!

Gerry Boyce ● 27d