Forum Topic

Hammersmith Bridge - A Fundamental Point

The continued closure of Hammersmith Bridge features from time to time on this forum in connection with Putney as a gridlocked zoom. What has become a yearly rally focussing on the closure allows people to protest about what is essentially the scandal of inactivity by the previous Conservative Government and now by the Labour Administration. The idea of further years in which the Hammersmith Bridge Rally reoccurs is depressing. It needs to be clearly understood that only pressure on the present Government may be the cause of funding being made available to solve a problem which at present seems gifted with eternal life.

Miles Thompson ● 23d32 Comments

Richard, you have argued throughout that the closure of Hammersmith Bridge has not affected traffic flow at Putney Bridge. Your evidence is that the number of cars crossing the river at Putney Bridge and the other West London bridges has actually decreased since the closure. But this fact does not prove your case. The most likely explanation for the decrease is that more people are working from home since the pandemic. It is quite possible that traffic flow at Putney Bridge migh5 have decreased still more if Hammersmith Bridge had not been closed.The assumption behind your view is that all the motorists who used to cross the river at Hammersmith have abandoned their cars and now use alternative means of transport. This is inherently unlikely. Many people crossing the river need their cars either for  business or because their destination is not well served by public transport. These individuals necessarily must use another bridge, adding to congestion.Philippa’s quip that loosening your belt is no cure for obesity is true. But tightening your belt when you are overweight is likely to lead to painful stomach cramps and a visit to the doctor. Closing bridges to cars is not a cure for traffic congestion. Would you be in favour of closing Putney Bridge as well? Why not close all the bridges? That would certainly solve the problem of congestion.Road pricing , which you advocate, is controversial. I accept that a fixed road tax for motorists regardless of the number of journeys they make is somewhat unfair. But road pricing would depress economic activity when businesses are already facing increasing taxes. It would also be regressive, affecting poorer families most. Furthermore it would constitute a form of double taxation on motorists who already pay VAT on fuel. And it would turn the UK into a surveillance society.

Steven Rose ● 11d

Hello Richard,It will come as no surprise to you but I disagree with you on this matter.You say that wherever the vehicles come from, is not a significant issue as far as you can see.  I could be very rude about this, but will not be.Do you really believe that all the cars on our roads belong to Putney residents?  Do you really?  Wow!!

Ivonne Holliday ● 11d

Front Page now about Hammersmith Bridge.

Barbara Stevens ● 11d

We and other car drivers are using Kew Bridge to get to the M4, whereas in the past we would have used Hammersmith Bridge.  I expect thousands of other drivers are doing the same to reach this very popular route out of London. You say there are too many cars, but cross over the river from congested PHS and the traffic is far less, and parts of central London are empty. You go on about facts, Richard, but the fact is our experiences don’t agree with you.

Martine Guy ● 11d

I think you may have caught a dose of BarbaraStevensitis, Martine. You want to get to the M4 etc, I understand that, but it's up to you what route you choose, I haven’t tried to direct you.

Richard Carter ● 11d

Well the obvious answer is Richard doesn't need anything other than his bike, he rides everywhere, doesn't have relations or friends he needs to visit and couldn't care about anybody else needing to travel. Obviously instigating the 15 min cities. What about our future generation needing Universities, or working not close to home.  Richard is obviously retired and is unable to see further than his bike.

Barbara Stevens ● 11d

No I don’t really understand your point either, Richard.  If we want to reach the M4, M25 and M40 where do you suggest we cross the river? Sometimes using the train isn’t an option and we want to use our car.

Martine Guy ● 11d

Quite a few comments here so I’ll try to keep my answers brief.I don’t really get Martine’s post that “Traffic does have to choose a different route if Hammersmith Bridge is closed” because she misses out the essential point that it’s not a fixed level and can choose not to go at all.Ivonne brings up the fact that we don’t know for sure where cars are coming from/going to, but that isn’t really a significant issue as far as I can see. And I do not agree that the partial closure of the bridge has had an enormous effect: where’s the evidence for that other than in people’s minds?Michael also picks this up, and in saying that Putney Bridge traffic northbound is flowing freely leaves out the point that that is now; feeing choke points earlier will inevitably cause a similar effect elsewhere: it’s an illusion to suppose that freeing one point cures everything because the network as a whole isn’t able to carry the volume of traffic that wants to use it. As he concludes, “there's too many cars for the available road space.” Amen to that!And Peter Higgins’ comment that anyone who crosses those bridges will tell you that “these [bridge] crossings are more congested than they were before Hammersmith Bridge closed as well as the surrounding areas" is dubious: relying on anecdotes is not evidence.Finally, Philippa accurately sums up the situation: "If you build it:  they will come” is the equivalent of loosening the belt to cure obesity.

Richard Carter ● 11d

Suggest you pinch yourself and wake up Philippa.

Barbara Stevens ● 12d

Why would it be improved by the bridge opening?"If you build it:  they will come."  Surely what will happen is that all the cars and more that are going elsewhere or are just staying at home will then decide to try to cross the bridge - and just block up the other side of the bridge?Of course since it isn't suitable for all those who might want to try and cross it in their individual cars - there will either be gridlock or there will have to be some demolition. How much will be needed?  And then the pinch points will just be moved somewhere else.  Or what else do you suggest?

Philippa Bond ● 12d

I think it is important not to get confused between 'traffic' and the number of vehicles passing a particular point.The charts that Richard has posted indisputably show that the number of vehicles crossing bridges including Putney have fallen. However, anyone who crosses those bridges will tell you that these crossings are more congested than they were before Hammersmith Bridge closed as well as the surrounding areas. This is confirmed by a whole range of statistical data which shows that delays have risen and average speeds have fallen over the last few years confirming that traffic and congestion is much higher.I can't offer a complete explanation as to why this might be and I suspect the reasons are going to be quite complex. The data on this is a bit confusing because of Covid and changing transport patterns. However, one thing is becoming increasingly clear - congestion has got worse since Hammersmith Bridge was closed and is likely to be improved by the bridge reopening.

Peter Higgins ● 12d

"The interesting point is that the LRR and PBR have large build ups of traffic but, as I understand it, the north bound Putney Bridge is usually free flowing? That implies the bridge isn't the constraint but that traffic is either being throttled entering the bridge, either by constricting the entrance to it or by traffic crossing between LRR and PBR in both directions causing "turbulence" for traffic from LRR, PBR & PHS northbound trying to enter the bridge thus slowing its entry, or possibly both."Perhaps they should do what they did on the Wandsworth side of Wandsworth Bridge?https://www.layersoflondon.org/map/records/wandsworth-bridge-1969/gallery/1There would need to be some demolition, of course.

David Ainsworth ● 12d

I think Ivonne is on the right track here. I was thinking that all we're doing is looking at certain bridges in one direction. Nothing is being considered about traffic flows coming into the area or across the area. The interesting point is that the LRR and PBR have large build ups of traffic but, as I understand it, the north bound Putney Bridge is usually free flowing? That implies the bridge isn't the constraint but that traffic is either being throttled entering the bridge, either by constricting the entrance to it or by traffic crossing between LRR and PBR in both directions causing "turbulence" for traffic from LRR, PBR & PHS northbound trying to enter the bridge thus slowing its entry, or possibly both.Keep in mind, depending on their final destination, some people might go further than the bridges in Richard's chart: Vauxhall, Lambeth, Waterloo, Blackfriars, Southwark, ...To do a proper, rigorous analysis one needs to know the details of traffic flows in, out and at sufficient points across the area ... (to me, it seems similar to a fluid dynamics problem) but the only conclusion is there's too many cars for the available road space! It's probable that other changes in or around the area - banning turns, shutting off rat runs, further parking & stopping restrictions. etc might affect traffic flows ...One would have thought the consultants TfL use to model traffic flows should be able to gain insight into this? (But if it's analogous to fluid dynamics that might mean trying to solve some complex, difficult partial differential equations!)

Michael Ixer ● 12d

I agree with you, Martine.We must bear in mind that all the cars we see in Putney do not belong to Putney residents and their trips commence elsewhere; some come as far away as Portsmouth.  That is without including cars that come from the M4 or M40 and use the M25 to get to the A3..... We also have to consider that the A3 finishes at the top of Putney Hill and West Hill.So, there are too many cars!  Yes, but many (at times most) are vehicles that start their journey elsewhere.So, the statistics shown by Richard are based on manual counts.  None of them were able to differentiate local cars and vehicles from others.....The closure of Hammersmith Bridge has had an enormous effect, unfavourably for Putney residents but bliss for residents on Castlenau....

Ivonne Holliday ● 12d

I do not agree.  Traffic does have to choose a different route if Hammersmith Bridge is closed.  If we want to use the M4, M25 or M40 we cannot use our preferred route of going over Hammersmith Bridge, instead we have to use Kew Bridge or Putney Bridge.

Martine Guy ● 12d

“ even if the [PHS/Putney Bridge) junction were redesigned, the  congestion along Putney High Street would be reduced still further if Hammersmith Bridge were reopened.” Not only is there no evidence that the Hammersmith Bridge partial closure has actually caused the congestion in PHS, but there is a category error here. You appear to be assuming that the amount of traffic is fixed, and that it has to go somewhere: neither of those is true. Demand for road space is not immutably fixed, but is elastic: if space is restricted, people at the margins decide it’s not worth driving (traffic evaporation) If it road space is increased, people at the margins decide to join the traffic, so that it is soon congested again. This quote from the urbanist Lewis Mumford is relevant here: “Adding highway lanes to deal with traffic congestion is like loosening your belt to cure obesity.” At present, we are using congestion to regulate the level of traffic, which is a particularly stupid way of doing it, costing as it does as much as £30 billion annually. I much cleverer way would ro introduce variable road pricing, so that it would cot the driver much more in peak hours than at times when there was very little demand. It’s an idea that’s been around for a long time – the Smeed Report in 1964 proposed it here, but it’s never been tried, although the technology now exists to do so. It has double advantages: reducing congestion and pollution, and freeing the roads so that public transport, specifically buses, would be much more effective (carrot and stick). But the power of the motor lobby is such that, sadly, governments have run scared and done nothing apart from crude measures like London’s congestion charge.

Richard Carter ● 12d

Rather less time, Barbara  than it will have taken for you to understand it...

Richard Carter ● 12d

The graph, Richard, is interesting. It shows that the total number of drivers  crossing the river in West London has declined. It could be that the closure of Hammersmith Bridge has encouraged former motorists to seek alternative modes of transport but I suspect that a more likely explanation is that more people are working from home since the pandemic. Nevertheless it stands to reason that even if the junction were redesigned, the  congestion along Putney High Street would be reduced still further if Hammersmith Bridge were reopened.

Steven Rose ● 13d

May be Michael, but you still had to drive home and leave in the first place which ever way you went.

Barbara Stevens ● 13d

How long did it take you to draw the little coloured picture Richard.

Barbara Stevens ● 13d

Steven. Although that might seem a common sense argument it may not be entirely correct. Many may just divert onto another route, but some may decide to skirt around parts of Londonon the M25;some might even decide the tran is better, at least for part of the journey. I know back in the day, when I drove a lot on business, once the M25 was open, I'd drive out of London then drive back into my destination as it was often quicker than crawling through London. 

Michael Ixer ● 13d

"It is obvious that the closure of any bridge across the Thames (assuming that the same number of car drivers wish to cross the river each day)  will increase congestion along the other bridges and approaches."Unfortunately, your assumption is wrong, as these DfT figures show.

Richard Carter ● 13d

Richard, whatever the consequences of the reconfiguration of the junction at Putney Bridge, it is obvious that the closure of any bridge across the Thames (assuming that the same number of car drivers wish to cross the river each day)  will increase congestion along the other bridges and approaches. How could it be otherwise? I am pretty sure that if Putney Bridge were closed to motor traffic for any reason, the same eco-protesters who have been demonstrating at Hammersmith Bridge would tell us that Putney Bridge was meant for pedestrians. And if Wandsworth Bridge became impassable as a result, they would assure us that it had nothing to do with the closure of Putney Bridge.

Steven Rose ● 13d

Mr. Carter, you obviously have not read Fleur Andersons post on the front page of Putney Forum.

Barbara Stevens ● 13d

Mr. Carter, we have had traffic in our road for years now, that is why there is a sign on the URR, Charlewood Rd no left turn between 7 - 10 am. Which nobody takes any notice of Also traffic on Saturdays our road is jam packed from one end of the road to the High Street. That's why we had a petition. Why then is there so much traffic also coming down the lower Richmond rd, to make it's way over Putney Bridge. Because people in Barnes in vehicles are unable to use Hammersmith bridge.

Barbara Stevens ● 13d

"The continued closure of Hammersmith Bridge features from time to time on this forum in connection with Putney as a gridlocked zoom."But it really is important to point out that the gridlocking of Putney did not follow the partial closure of the bridge, but the much more recent botched reorganisation of the junction at Putney Bridge.

Richard Carter ● 13d

Miles makes a good point but a back bench revolt on this issue wouldn't be particularly effective.The argument about whether the bridge should or shouldn't reopen is effectively over. H&F Council accept it, Richmond Council accepts it, TfL accepts it, the Mayor accepts it and so do all the main political parties other than the Greens.The issue now is purely and simply about funding and it must be remember that this, or any other conceivable government must operate within  rigid fiscal constraints. It is likely there is a lot of horse trading going on among Labour MPs at the moment as to whose constituency should benefit from infrastructure spending.Labour looks set to get an absolute hammering in the May elections across the country except in London. The rise of Reform is a gift to Sir Sadiq as the first past the post system means it is basically a straight choice between him and Laila Cunningham and most Green and Lib Dem voters would never vote Reform.This situation weakens the had of Fleur Anderson and Andy Slaughter and we should expect a spate of good news announcements in constituencies that Labour have prioritised to defend.Sadly, I don't see this situation changing by the time of the General Election where both local MPs look likely to retain their seats and Labour's priority will be to prevent a Reform majority which reopening Hammersmith Bridge will not assist.

Peter Higgins ● 13d

Major infrastructure like traffic bridges over the Thames you would expect to be Govt funded or Govt organised funding (like the Tideway Tunnel) but the way everything has now been privatised nothing would surprise me any more.  It seems any deal in order to avoid the Govt having to pay because nobody wants to pay for anything in their taxes.  Nobody seems to want to be philanthropic either - and the Victorians had some great philanthropists who were only too happy to be seen to contribute to their home city.  It's definitely Mrs Thatcher's Me-Me-Me no-such-thing-as-society.  Tollbridge?Barbara. I walk or use public transport.  Taxi drivers could give you an answer.  I expect it would depend on the time taken and that would also depend on the time of day of the appointment - with some times generally more congested than others.  They would also know different routes to take.  If you look up the Hammersmith Hospital website (www.imperial.nhs.uk) you can try and use their website including using the bigger text to see the map of routes with times.Investigation should be made of where and why people are travelling especially to see if there are alternatives and whether they are looking at alternatives or just trying to repeat something they are used to doing.  It is much easier to get right across from West London to East London now on the Lizzie line which makes travelling East from London easier and there's also a new tunnel I haven't been through.  It's really great not to have to just use the old tube system to get to the major London train stations.  Things change!  We still need to get more tube stations and public buildings made step-free! Please support your MP - but remember there is a lot of infrastructure which needs attention!

Philippa Bond ● 19d

I'm not sure that such suchspeculations  are going to prove much...The point that I am making regards the importance of political lobbying within the Parliamentary system (rather than gatherings at Hammersmith Bridge which have yet to achieve anything) in order to bring about the reopening of the Bridge...for instance a Back Bench revolt

Miles Thompson ● 20d

You didn't answer my question how much more would a taxi cost now it is unable to go over Hammersmith bridge from Lonsdale Rd, Barnes.

Barbara Stevens ● 21d

https://www.imperial.nhs.uk/patients-and-visitors/help-support-and-feedback/patient-transportBut would your GP or whoever is referring you still be referring you to Hammersmith Hospital?There is info on the Imperial Health website taking you direct to a mapping website with alternative ways to get there showing the different amount of time it takes.If you are using private healthcare there I'm sure they would give you at least or even better instructions.You can also make the text larger and easier to read on their website.

Philippa Bond ● 21d

What if your disabled and need a taxi to go to Ducane Rd, Hospital. How do you get there from Lonsdale Rd, how much more will the Taxi cost.

Barbara Stevens ● 22d