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Interesting, Mr Hawkes, from a data security/resilience perspective. One assumes a murderous, fanatical terrorist group such as Hamas isn't going to have the same bureaucratic processes as a democratic state with a civil defence plan to protect citizens. We know from the IRA bombings in the city that IT devices don't react well to explosions and even paper records can be dispersed into streets if not in fireproof cabinets or safes. That's why some large organisations are keep data copies in deep storage facilities and their information is replicated in data centres around the globe. Even if Hamas were to use electric devices - after the exploding pagers in Lebanon would they trust any? - it's unlikely that, as a sanctioned terrorist group, that they would have access to Dropbox, Google Workspace or iCloud to save data off-site? So, given the ferocity of the bombardments and Israeli statements that they targeted Hamas locations, it's possible that any devices, paper, terrorists and hostages are buried, fragmented and mixed up? (Apologies if that sounds brutal but I suspect those concerns are why many hostage families protested against Netanyahu's strategy? That's obviously no excuse for Hamas taking hostages in the first place but we have to deal with the reality pragmatically; the clock cant be turned back now.)I believe Hamas have asked for heavy equipment to help with shifting rubble, and there's a possibility of Turkish earthquake recovery teams assisting, although they wouldn't have experience dealing with unexploded munitions.Some US negotiators seems to understand the situation and it would surely be sad if Trump's ceasefire plan failed to become a longterm peace because of what may now be the reality of the situation? Also, is it right that humanitarian aid that would assist starving children is withheld because of a situation that has nothing to do with them? I suspect if peace is truly wanted then looking after the younger generation might go part way to achieving it?

Michael Ixer ● 3d

'Steven, your responses are less coherent each time and are in danger of being libellous. FYI, I  have been on one Palestine march and, indeed, some people chanted "From the river to the sea" there. But to interpret that to suggest that I am antisemitic is, frankly, as silly as saying that, if I go to a football match where some people are shouting racist remarks, then I too am a racist'."Oooh - they don't like it up 'em Capn Mainwaring" !Mr CarterI am sure you are not a racist.You are just hypercritical of Israelis over and above any other peoples that are involved in ethnic or racial conflict.And I don't think being called antisemitic by those that question why you have this obsession with criticising a Jewish state constitutes a legal offence."Is Anti-Semitism Illegal?Antisemitism is not a criminal offense in itself, but it can be prosecuted under the law when it leads to actions such as assault or other crimes. The law punishes antisemitic acts, but the dividing line is often unclear, and suspects may receive some leeway. The law is complex, and many crimes are never investigated by the police, and many prosecutions collapse without conviction. Victims and witnesses of antisemitic incidents can seek justice through organizations like Campaign Against Antisemitism'. I think your views are antisemitic but that is just my interpretation of the  anti-Israel bias in your posts, which in a country like ours that offers freedom of speech, is my right.I don't think you are calling for assault or other crimes to be committed against Jews.However I have no doubt that there were many in the crowd you marched with who did.

John Hawkes ● 4d

Ms Holliday'Again, you have chosen to ignore the fact that some people do believe that Israel's occupied territories in Gaza and the West Bank are exactly that - occupied territories.  Not my term, but one universally acknowledged'.Universally acknowledged ?So no groups or otherwise disagree ?Israel has occupied Gaza because it is from there that Hamas is based and from where the Palestinians launched their racist pogrom against it in October 2023. It has not occupied the West Bank.It is governed by the Palestinian Authority led by Mahmoud Abbas who has somewhat peculiar views on Hitler.https://www.algemeiner.com/2023/09/06/palestinian-leader-abbas-says-hitler-only-killed-jews-social-role-usurers-latest-antisemitic-rant/'Jewish groups, Israeli officials, and foreign diplomats on Wednesday condemned a recent antisemitic speech by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas in which he claimed that Nazi leader Adolf Hitler did not hate Jews as a people but rather because of their “dealing with usury and money.”In an address late last month to the Revolutionary Council of Fatah, the political party headed by Abbas, the Palestinian leader ran through a litany of antisemitic conspiracy theories.“They say that Hitler killed the Jews for being Jews, and that Europe hated the Jews because they were Jews,” Abbas said. “Not true. It was clearly explained that [the Europeans] fought [the Jews] because of their social role, and not their religion. Several authors wrote about this. Even Karl Marx said this was not true. He said that the enmity was not directed at Judaism as a religion, but to Judaism for its social role.”

John Hawkes ● 4d

Ms HollidayRe you questions to Mr Rose -'1.  Those who attended marches where demotrators chant "From the river to the sea".  Please, do tell who they are.'They are Palistinians who somehow have gained the right of abode in this country and fellow travellers for their cause.You are a great one for digging out obscure sources to back up your claims of Israeli infamy.For this try reading the MSM including the BBC and the Guardian.2.  Those who deny Israel's right to exist as a Jewish homeland.  Please tell who they are.You for a start unless you precisely state otherwise.Amongst the marchers it includes those chant 'From the river to the sea' as a claim for a Palestinian state.If enacted Israel would not exist.3.  Those who called for an unconditional ceasefire on the part of Israel without making any demand on Hamas to return the hosstages (sp) and lay down their weapons.  Please tell who they are.No demands were made of Hamas until Trump in his Peace Plan.And they are refusing to do so as, medieval barbarians that they are, they are also refusing to hand back the corpses of those women, children and the elderly they killed in October 2023.These are the Palestinians you support it would appear.Trading in blood and flesh.4.  A number of contributors to Putney Forum fit into one or more of these categories - are effectively promoting the cause of Hamas how much they pretend otherwise.  Please tell who they are.Those like you who continually attack Israel and depict it as evil incarnate.The exact actions and political stance taken by Hamas.I am sure Mr Rose will answer for himself.

John Hawkes ● 4d

Hello Steven,Thank you for your reply.I questioned your understanding of the English language because repeatedly many people on this Forum have condemed the attack by Hamas of 7 October 2023.  Something people like you have decided to ignore.I am enormously annoyed as the same questions keep being asked - time and time again - when replies have already been given and wantonly ignored.Again, you have chosen to ignore the fact that some people do believe that Israel's occupied territories in Gaza and the West Bank are exactly that - occupied territories.  Not my term, but one universally acknowledged.On the question of Hamas, nobody denies that they are despicable beyond recognition.  That does not mean that all Palestinians are!!!  Have Hamas been horrific?  Beyond a shadow of a doubt!  Has Israel been horrific?  Yes.  Why you ask?  The destruction of Gaza was against Hamas but more importantly, it was the pursuit of gaining territory which, as Daniela Weiss stated, "it is so beautiful, we want to live there". Of course Hamas had to liberate hostages - what else???But Israel's government must stop behaving like bullies and destroying everything in their wake.  If you really want peace, then stop the Israel's control on Palestinians land, air and sea movements.  This is what creates terrorists groups.I have no hesitation is saying Israel has a right to defend itself.  On the same breath, I do think Palestinians have a right to live on their land.  And this does not mean Hamas!  Yes, they are murdering political opponents because they want to stay in power.  Again, I repeat myself, Hamas are despicable!  That does not mean I have to automatically side with Israel. I think that Netanyahu and his government are horrific too.  Netanyahu because he wishes to cling onto power and not be subjected to a trial.  It seems to me that Hamas and Netanyahu have a few things in common!

Ivonne Holliday ● 4d

I don’t understand why you question my understanding of the English language, Ivonne.  What words or expressions have I misunderstood? Equally, I have no idea why you are ‘enormously’ annoyed. Annoyed about what, exactly? But to answer your question, both  Michael Brigo and Richard Carter, by their own admission on the Forum, have attended marches organised by the Palestine Solidarity Campaign. Demonstrators at these marches, including last weekend, have regularly chanted ,’From the river to the sea’, an anti-Semitic slogan which advocates the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state. Richard Ainsworth has consistently denied Israel’s right to exist, suggesting that the Jewish inhabitants of Israel are colonial invaders who have stolen the land from the Palestinians. Lastly, many contributors, including Michael and Richard as well as Jane Carter and Gerry Boyce, have consistently called, whether implicitly or explicitly, for a halt to Israel’s campaign without insisting as a pre-condition that Hamas must first return the hostages and lay down their arms. As far as I am concerned, all these individuals, however much they may denounce Hamas’ brutality, are effectively pawns in Hamas’ strategy, which is to maintain their power in Gaza by persuading  liberals in the West to put pressure on their governments to withdraw support from Israel. Keir Starmer’s ill-conceived  decision to recognise Palestine without demanding anything from the Palestinians in return (e.g. a recognition of Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state) shows that Hamas’ strategy has been partly  successful. Fortunately President’s Trump’s intervention, insisting that an Israeli ceasefire must be accompanied by the return of the hostages and disarmament by Hamas, has undermined Hamas’ plans. But it remains to be seen whether Hamas will actually give up their weapons. They have already started to return to the areas of Gaza vacated by the Israelis where they are now murdering their political opponents.

Steven Rose ● 4d

Mr Pike'The Hamas murderers who have re taken control of Gaza or the palestinian residents of Gaza who are being executed and murdered by Hamas?Maybe you need to have different colour tea towels to show who ypu support'Might be a difficult decision to make for the usual anti-Isreal/anti-Semitic suspects on this Forum.BBC News reports that 'Israel reacted angrily after receiving only four bodies instead of the expected 20, calling it a breach of the deal.According to Hamas officials, some of the hostages’ bodies remain trapped under the rubble of buildings destroyed by Israeli bombardment, and the group has requested the entry of heavy machinery to help with the search and recovery'.So these disgusting, barbaric Palestinians don't even know the whereabouts of the corpses of the kidnapped women, children and elderly they kidnapped.That shows you the concern for the respect for human life they show.And also BBC Verify has 'authenticated graphic videos that show a public execution carried out by Hamas gunmen in Gaza last night.The videos show several men with guns line up eight people whose arms are tied behind their backs. They are in a public square surrounded by a large crowd. While BBC Verify cannot confirm the identity of the masked gunmen, some appear to be wearing the green headbands associated with Hamas.Moments later, the gunmen open fire killing all eight. Shouts of Allahu Akbar - God is greatest in Arabic - can be heard from the crowd as the gunmen stand over the bodies'.https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cvg02zp7j2rtAnyone who shows any support or sympathy for Hamas needs to look deep into their conscience.

John Hawkes ● 5d