Forum Topic

Compulsory digital ID for all adults in the UK proposal

I find this news quite shocking....With all the scams and hacks going on, do you think digital IDs are a good idea?  I do not and will not agree to this.I think this proposal is beyond ridiculous!

Ivonne Holliday ● 403d157 Comments

A Tony Blair policy that Starmer is trying to crowbar in before he is thrown out, one commentator put it.I think the point has been made that a Passport card that many already have in Europe would meet most requirements.We seem to be getting all the disadvantages of an authoritarian state without any of the advantages - such as cheap energy.Labour are now the Stasi party without the benefits it would seem.

Ed Robinson ● 403d

A Tony Blair policy that went flop!I do not mind ID cards.  I have one, it is my driving licence and I have a passport too. I can prove that I am who I say I am.But I object most strongly to a digital one!  What a ridiculous thought!

Ivonne Holliday ● 403d

"But I object most strongly to a digital one!  What a ridiculous thought!"Er....why?

Michael Brigo ● 403d

Scammers? Hacking?  Do any of these come to mind?

Ivonne Holliday ● 403d

Children's names, pictures and addresses stolen in nursery chain hackhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62ldyvpwv9oI am adding this to my previous response as an illustration.

Ivonne Holliday ● 403d

Ivonne. One has to accept tha for mod people the Government has all the data needed for Digital ID cards: passports, driving licences, HMRC, NHS, etc and they work with other agencies such as credit checkers when validating identities such as passport applications.  To be honest, if you're worried about loss of your personal data then companies such as M&S, the Coop, Talk Talk just to name a few have already lost it to the dark web. I get the impression the government is taking cyber security seriously while many private companies have given it a lower priority as they've seen it as a cost on the bottom line.I think ID Cards probably have to happen. I'm not too concerned, I know if I carryout certain banking operations they'll want two types of identity, and some buildings such as the Gherkin will want to see photo ID before I get in. I guess if people don't like it blamethe criminals, not the government, and don't moan about illegal immigration.I'm not too concerned at present, but I would be if we weren't in the ECHR ...

Michael Ixer ● 403d

"I get the impression the government is taking cyber security seriously while many private companies have given it a lower priority as they've seen it as a cost on the bottom line"Wed 4 Jun 2025100,000 UK taxpayer accounts hit in £47m phishing attack on HMRChttps://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jun/04/100000-uk-taxpayer-accounts-hit-in-47m-phishing-attack-on-hmrc

Ed Robinson ● 403d

"I get the impression the government is taking cyber security seriously while many private companies have given it a lower priority as they've seen it as a cost on the bottom line"May 19th, 2025UK government confirms massive data breach following hack of Legal Aid Agencyhttps://therecord.media/uk-legal-aid-agency-data-breach

Ed Robinson ● 403d

This would be yet another unwarranted intrusion by the state into the personal life of each of us. It should be resisted also because the digital system Starmer is proposing is likely to be insecure. Imagine the chaos if the system were to be hacked into by a hostile entity. Passports fine because they are practical. Driving licences fine ditto. ID cards unnecessary and noxious. Write to your MP and to No 10. Insist that Starmer thinks again and drops it. Incidentally, has the PM thought how much hay Farage will make of a dubious idea from a PM under under pressure? Yet another Number Ten misstep?

Alexander MacLeod ● 403d

It won’t happen:It’s designed to work from smart phone appso everyone will have to have a smart phone?Mandatory means Advisory.. Labour are a puppet government and are finished.

Paul Beer ● 403d

The so-called Brit-Card will be subject to consultation and may well require legislationThe scheme will allow the verification of a citizen’s right to live and work in the UK.Under the plans, anyone starting a new job or looking to rent a home would be required to show the card on a smartphone app.It would then be checked against a central database of people entitled to live and work in the UK.It is hoped this would reduce one of the ‘pull factors’ for migrants to come to the UK.Look, they have ID cards throughout Europe and many other parts of the world. It is a straightforward method of managing who's who and what they can and can't do. Not very different to Passports, Driving Licenses etc. I don't really see what all the fuss is about in all honesty.

Gerry Boyce ● 403d

"required to show the card on a smartphone app"Oddly enough it won't be required if you sign up to assisted state suicide."Under the plans, anyone starting a new job or looking to rent a home would be required to show the card on a smartphone app."There is already a system for employers to check if you are entitled to work in the UK.

Ed Robinson ● 403d

Just because European countries have ID cards is not a justification for having them here. Intrusion by the state should be kept to a minimum. Linking the idea to controlling immigration is  a subtle and rather sneaky way of introducing something that many citizens would consider sly and objectionable.

Alexander MacLeod ● 403d

I'm not saying that EU countries widespread use of ID cards is justification for them to be introduced here, it is just a matter of fact and maybe perspective. I think it is one of the elements that would help control immigration; a number of other countries and bodies have said that a lack of ID cards is acting as one of the magnets or pull factors that makes this country more attractive to migrants; I accept that point.How else, realistically, can we hope to control who should work here legally, or rent a property, or receive benefits they are entitled to etc if we can't tell who they are. No-one needs to have a driving license, or passport so why not a compulsory Brit Card?

Gerry Boyce ● 403d

Ed. The HMRC case wasn't a breach of the HMRC systems, it was phishing of tax payer to (as far as I  know) gain sufficient information to gain access to accounts. It appears the HMRC antifraud systems identified issues,  better than many commercial organisations.Roughly a decade ago I was involved in a financial investigation that involved criminals putting malware on the PCs of clients of execution only brokers. That allowed the fraudsters to manipulate the LSE to make their money, but none of the financial organisations' systems were breached. Often the easiest target is the customer's PC or email account, or just social engineering the customer, as in the HMRC case.The legal aid agency is probably a case of such agencies being starved of government cash. I didn't say all goverment systems were perfect. Some of the police systems are several decades old - although cumbersome it probably makes them more difficult "hack"! Who writes malware for 1980s systems when Microsoft is easier and has more plentiful targets?Nothing's going to be 100% secure but the more secure your system is it's more likely the criminals will go elsewhere where the security isn't so good. The exception to that will be state security services ... Obviously, the MoD case of Afghan asylum seekers' data being leaked by emailing Excel spreadsheets was a terrible security lapse but, again, not a case of systems being breached, but one of poor practice.What doesn't seem to have been thought through is how those without a mobile device or passport will use the system.I also know that monitoring of the Internet being done by government agencies means they will sometimes notify companies they have a security issue - but I don't know if I'm supposed to know that. But there's good people at the NCSC and GCHQ, plus they draw on skilled people within security consultancy companies. But my original point is the government already has all your data needed for ID Cards. You perhaps should be more concerned about which of you data have been moved to the US by Google, Meta, Microsoft, etc post Brexit?

Michael Ixer ● 403d

'There is already a system for employers to check if you are entitled to work in the UK.' But it clearly isn't working that well given the amount of people who are allegedly working here illegally. I suppose legislation would help to tighten up the requirements about ensuring people show their ID cards and that these have been verified.Look, I suppose many details will need to be figured out and discussed and agreed etc, but in principle, it can only help to tighten up control here, which is what a lot of people seem to be very concerned about.ID cards may well be a useful tool.

Gerry Boyce ● 403d

"But it clearly isn't working that well given the amount of people who are allegedly working here illegally."Yes there is a system already where employers can check.If you employ people off the books or if they are ghosting someone in the gig economy then it will not help nor will this online id.Are people really so disconnected from reality of actual life that one would ask such questions?

Ed Robinson ● 403d

As with most things there is corruption and a lack of enforcement which has nothing to do with Id cards.With the economy now spiralling down hill there will be even less focus on enforcement and no sign of corruption reducing.

Ed Robinson ● 403d

Michael,I believe the M&S was a result of social engineering:"In late April 2025, attackers from the Scattered Spider/DragonForce group breached M&S via social engineering on a third-party contractor, not through direct system exploits."https://www.arcsystems.co.uk/news/cyber-security-breach-what-went-wrong-at-ms/UK government confirms massive data breach following hack of Legal Aid Agencyhttps://therecord.media/uk-legal-aid-agency-data-breach"HMRC staff sacked for data breach"One of them sent personal data of 100 tax payers to his person e-mail address!Following a FOI request by the Telegraph newspaper, the paper reports that 186 employees have been sacked so far out of 354 investigated. This was carried in a news piece by the tabloid The Sun"https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/hmrc-staff-sacked-for-data-breach

Ed Robinson ● 403d

It seems like a sensible proposal to me and I have a natural distrust of the governement. Digital ID's are widespread in Europe and I can't see any that have suddently turned into a totalitarian state as a result?

Michael Brigo ● 402d

"Digital ID's are widespread in Europe "I think you are confusing digital id with ID cards.The European Digital Identity (EUDI) is scheduled for implementation in 2026.

Ed Robinson ● 402d

I've just signed a petition against digital ID. It was on Facebook.

Barbara Stevens ● 402d

Hello Michael I,I do not mind the idea of an ID card, not at all.  What frightens me enormously is the idea of a Digital ID card. Of course the Government has all the data needed for Digital ID cards. I would rather have a physical ID card and not a Digital ID card. You give perfect examples of personal data loss with private companies.  They hold (held?) a lot of personal data but not photographs.  What worries me about the idea is that the information will be carried on mobile phones or any computer for that matter.  At what age will these Digital IDs be issued?  Will parents be carrying Digital IDs for their children?  Babies do have passports too. Will school children have to carry Digital ID cards on their phones? If a mobile phone is stolen from somebody regardless of their age, what happens? By definition, if the phone is stolen, then it has fallen into the wrong hands....  If the idea is to stop illegal immigrants getting jobs, forget about them entering the country in the first place, what happens with NI numbers?Also, the Digital ID cards will apply to UK citizens only.  What happens to UK citizens living abroad?  What happens to foreign citizens living very legally in the UK?  The EU settled status for a start. As you can see, carrying ID does not worry me in the least, I have a driving licence.  Digital IDs are a different matter altogether. As you know, laws are made to be broken or for every law there is a loophole....

Ivonne Holliday ● 402d

Apologies Michael I.The Digital ID is for adults, not children.  My mistake.

Ivonne Holliday ● 402d

The digital ID only applies to British nationals and those from overseas are exempt.  Many illegals are working in the black economy and will continue to do so, this will have zero impact so where is the benefit.

Robert Wheeler ● 402d

I am very much in favour of digital ID assuming it is well designed. But I worry about my 96 year old neighbour who does not have internet, is not online, and uses a landline. What arrangements will be made for non-digital lime her?
Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 402d

If one needs a Digital ID to claim UK employment then surely it would have to include foreign national with Indefinite Leave to Remain and work visas who can also work in the UK?

Michael Ixer ● 402d

Yes, Ed. The HMRC has internal anti fraud staff who look for staff breaches and then disciplines them. Most private companies don't have that level of policy enforcement, it's usually left to line management who can often be cavalier about policy breaches. Yes, many breaches begin with a social engineering exercise, others are poor technical configurations, sometimes it's a company's own staff who have a grudges or are being bribed.

Michael Ixer ● 402d

One would hope so!

Ivonne Holliday ● 402d

That is the problem.  This will do nothing to stop the black economy and illegal workers.

Robert Wheeler ● 402d

Nick. Im not sure those details have been thought through. There's a statement it won't be compulsory but I'm sure there's people in employment who don't have smartphones. I assume your 96 year old neighbour isn't working?

Michael Ixer ● 402d

Ms Holliday'I think this proposal is beyond ridiculous!'The whole point of this Labour plan is to divert attention both from Party splits with Andy "Cock of the North" Burnham and the fact that Labour has no idea how to stop the illegal immigration of boat people, an issue which will lose them the next election.Have they thought for instance how long it would take to implement such a system were it to get the go-ahead ?If one does not have a Smartphone will Labour give out iPhone 17s ?What's wrong with rounding these people up; detaining them in some ex-military facility; granting asylum to those genuinely qualifying for such and then reviving the Arsenal plan for the rest by shipping them to Rwanda ?

John Hawkes ● 402d

Mr Ixer'I'm not too concerned at present, but I would be if we weren't in the ECHR ...'How would a supra-national unelected body protect us from any perceived infringement of liberty by our elected government and our own courts ?

John Hawkes ● 402d

I am not particularly worried by this in principle and to be honest I find Ivonne’s hysterical posts risible.  However I suspect that Blair is now pulling Starmer’s strings and that does bother me.  I no longer have a valid passport because I haven’t needed to renew it and I relinquished my driving licence about 10 years ago, so digital ID would be useful for me.  Starmer’s reasoning is that digital ID is a way to tackle illegal immigration; ergo being able to identify illegal workers would be a deterrent🙄but the man is a deluded fool clutching at straws. However I would take this idea even further.  I would propose a national database that would record the DNA of everyone in the U.K.  It would be a mammoth task but it could be done systematically.  In order for such data capture to be effective it must begin from birth. DNA would be taken from: 1. Every baby born here 2. All babies and children who have been granted asylum here3. Every adult who has been granted asylum here 4. Everyone being housed in temporary accommodation/detention whist waiting for their claims to be assessed 5. Everyone who accesses GP, hospital snd dental services6. Everyone detained by the police for whatever reason7. Everyone in prison 8. Basically EVERYONE !!DNA samples can be taken in several ways but I believe the easiest and least invasive test is the buccal which is taken by a cheek swab and the result can be processed in as little as 2 hours if needed.  1.1.1. Technological advances have resulted in laboratory-based systems being able to process samples using direct amplification for short tandem repeat (STR) DNA profiling to produce a result within a couple of hours, that is rapid DNA profiling or rapid DNA. Many of these systems are automated for high volume throughput.1.1.2. Portable instruments that can produce STR DNA profile results within 2 hours for a small number of samples per run have also been developed. These devices extract, amplify and separate the amplified products and designate the profile in the single device and are therefore described as rapid DNA devices.1.1.3. Methods using rapid DNA devices could be deployed as follows.a. In locations where PACE DNA samples are taken (for example, custody suites) for processing buccal samples in order to obtain investigative leads during the custody retention period of the individual, or for immigration border control use.b. At incidents (incident scene, mass disasters, for example a terrorist attack) for processing samples in order to obtain investigative leads or to identify a deceased individual.Draconian, possibly?  Necessary to keep us and future generations safe, definitely!Smelling salts needed for Ivonne!

Sue Hammond ● 402d

'Draconian, possibly? No sh*t, Sherlock!A national DNA database with genetic information on everyone, could you imagine, what fun for Nigel and his swivel eyed army of racists.Nice one, Sue. (By the way, how's the petition creeping along?)

Gerry Boyce ● 402d

Of course, anyone eligible for work would need to produce their ID card. Very easy to check and monitor. If you don't have a card then you can't work.Seems like an eminently straightforward and workable system to me.

Gerry Boyce ● 402d

Will the DNA test show up if you have eaten a swan lately?

David Ainsworth ● 402d

No problem, Ivonne, I suspect the "plans" are evolving to match the feedback! I'd have thought NI numbers would be a good primary key to base the ID system on. All (or nearly all) adults have one and they're also issued to foreign nationals paying tax in the UK. But I think it was Ed's point that it's not clear how this will deal with the shadow economy.It's becoming more common to need to prove one's identity. Not everyone has a passport and/or driving licence, and if some elderly people have their driving licence rescinded for health reasons that can become an issue. Hence the need for an identity document becomes more important.Not something I'd thought about, but the passport system must hold images of children. I'm sure that's more secure than the Kido nursery system (although it appears other nurseries using the same software service, Family, haven't been compromised).

Michael Ixer ● 402d

I think you might need to check your 'facts', Rob. ANYONE eligible to work here will need an ID card; no card, no right to work. Dead easy.The rest is implementation, monitoring and checking.

Gerry Boyce ● 402d

Nope Gerry the black economy in Britain is worth 150billion in lost taxes a year so listening to all those Labour MPs saying it will stop the boats this morning is beyond daft. https://www.accountancydaily.co/billions-lost-tax-%C2%A3150bn-black-market#:~:text=The%20black%20market%20in%20Britain,of%20Economic%20Affairs%20(IEA). The vast majority who work here are legal and paying into the system so exactly what is the point of this card?  As Ivonne has said we have driving licences, passports, NI numbers for work.

Robert Wheeler ● 402d

"the black economy in Britain is worth 150billion in lost taxes a year"And people want to destroy it? Destroy a successful area of our economy?

David Ainsworth ● 402d

Mr Hawkes. The ECHR has the ability to test any UK legislation within the bounds of the agreement of human rights the UK has signed up to. In many instances that will in practice be the UK's Supreme Court. I can't think off the top of my head any examples of where judges are elected (you may have an example?); in the US the president appoints Supreme Court judges, in the UK there's an independent judicial appointments committee and the Council of Europe has a judge representing each member country selected from nominees by each country. These are elected from nominees by members countries by a assembly containing elected members from each member country.  They're not directly elected but an indirect result of an election process across the Council of Europe states.Personally, I just feel more comfortable knowing there's a backstop that can moderate any excesses by a UK government given we've no written constitution.

Michael Ixer ● 402d

You can always trust Boyce and Ainsworth to post a stupid comment.

Sue Hammond ● 402d

SH: Suggest you read 1984.

Alexander MacLeod ● 402d

Sue, perhaps something for you to discuss with Mr Farage? Interestingly, isn't the NHS looking to build a database of DNA to help in diagnosis of long-term health issues?

Michael Ixer ● 402d

I don't think anyone said the ID card will stop the boats, Robbie, you may need to check those 'facts' again.The point of the card is to make it tougher to work in the UK illegally. So that is a good thing for all of us, Rob, who are working legally, paying our dues etc.There are of course, passports and driving licenses, but no-one is obliged to have one of them. An ID card would simplify the process of identifying who has a right to work.If you don't have an ID card, you don't have a right to work. I think you'll get on board when you look into it.

Gerry Boyce ● 402d

No smartphone appNo digital ID.It’s not going to happen.The country can’t afford.Hands up who voted for this hopeless bunch of politicians…. as it your bloody fault.Best P

Paul Beer ● 402d

Paul, I suspect this country's track record with large projects, particularly IT ones I suspect you're probably correct.  But I suppose they could outsource it to Alphabet or Meta ...

Michael Ixer ● 402d

No i'm not.At least 8 european countries have digital ID cardshttps://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/uk-news/full-list-countries-digital-id-32556771Remind me, is Sweden a totalitarian state? What about Belgium?

Michael Brigo ● 402d

I'm not being funny, Paul, but as far as I understand it, the ID card will only be required for people who want to work here.If you're retired, or not capable of working, then I assume it won't apply. You might not need one.By the way, it's impertinent to ask people how they voted, aren't you aware it's a personal matter? Frankly, you should keep your nose out of other people's business.Have a good one!

Gerry Boyce ● 402d

Mr Boyce'A national DNA database with genetic information on everyone, could you imagine, what fun for Nigel and his swivel eyed army of racists.'What malevolent use of this information could Reform UK make of this even if they could gain access to it ?And are you suggesting all Reform supporters are 'swivel eyed racists ?Do you not think there are concerns over immigration and the UK's inability to control it amongst Labour supporters even if such do not worry you ?

John Hawkes ● 402d

Mr Ixer'Interestingly, isn't the NHS looking to build a database of DNA to help in diagnosis of long-term health issues?'Doubt if Messrs Carter or Ainsworth will be participating.

John Hawkes ● 402d

Mr Boyce'If you're retired, or not capable of working, then I assume it won't apply. You might not need one'.But a similar registration system might be very useful to control who is entitled to take advantage of our benefit system, making those illegal immigrants that have made no contribution to its funding less enthusiastic to come here to be supported by it.

John Hawkes ● 402d

I do dislike smartphones. I'm just going to go to the vets and have my Digital ID added to my microchip. Job done.

David Ainsworth ● 402d

Yes suspect it would be farmed. The cost will be eye watering how will it be paid for?Obviously selling our data will make billions in years to come.

Paul Beer ● 402d

'What malevolent use of this information could Reform UK make of it..?' Oh, you know, mass deportation of swan eating ethnic minorities etc. To say 'all' Reform voters are swivel eyed racists might be stretching it a bit.Are there concerns over immigration and the UK's inability to control it amongst Labour supporters? Very much so, John, but racism, targeting minority groups, stirring up hatred etc. is another matter all together.

Gerry Boyce ● 402d

I think control of benefits is an important issue and should be dealt with fairly to all; the host community and immigrants. I can well understand why people coming here and being able to take advantage of a system they have not contributed to, will be a drain on limited resources and be seen as unfair by many. However, when migrants come and apply for asylum and are left in the doldrums for years in hotels or whatever other accommodation the state sees fit to put them up in, and given vouchers for food, and taxis to doctors surgeries etc, whilst they go through a very slow process of considering their application....all the while ensuring the are not allowed to work!  Then I find it pretty rich to blame the asylum seeker for the failure of the system. Often, it is a tone of debate and the target of blame that I find unacceptable.

Gerry Boyce ● 402d

I'm quite in favour of some sort of ID card, especially for people who don't have a passport or driving licence. But Digital? On your phone?What about all the phones that are snatched in the street? won't they be making their way to people smugglers, if they're not already.

Elizabeth Balsom ● 402d

I totally agree with you, Elizabeth.

Ivonne Holliday ● 402d

Sorry Michael B,Sweden doesn't have a government Digital Id card. There is a collaboration between banks. Perhaps you should read the article!Get BankIDBankIDhttps://www.bankid.com To get a BankID, you must have a Swedish personal identity number, be a customer of one of the banks that issue BankID and be identified with a valid ID.

Ed Robinson ● 402d

Gerry you are deluded to believe this ID would not evolve especially if and when CBDC is introduced.The ID cards will be a powerful control tool for everyday lifeyou would be foolish to trust any government to protect the people Gerry trying to embarrass those Labour voters… we can all agree it’s a totally shambles.20 million in the U.K. who are Awake will create plenty of pushback… Gerry if you want to help then thank you Best P

Paul Beer ● 401d

Don't we have enough of our own, Driving License, Passport, Nectar Card, Tesco Card, Boots, Bank Card, Electoral Register. Birth Certificate. etc etc etc.

Barbara Stevens ● 401d

"20 million in the U.K. who are Awake"Source?

David Ainsworth ● 401d

Petition is at 1,704,569Big Brother Watch found 63 per cent of Britons do not trust the Government to keep personal information securehttps://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/campaigns/no2digitalid/

Ed Robinson ● 401d

So my point still stands, there are countries in Europe that have them and they haven't turned into Orwellian nightmares.

Michael Brigo ● 401d

I'm guessing Paul Beer doesn't like vaccines, thinks chemtrails are real and isn't sure if the Earth is round or flat.Am I right Paul?

Michael Brigo ● 401d

Interesting, Ed. But I guess most of them trust the government to look after the personal information they supply to obtain a driving licence and passport? And the electoral register? I wonder if the real objection is they don't trust the government not to lose their information or if they're really concerned about the government misusing their information? I suppose it could be both.Is the objection because it's a digital token rather than being a booklet like a passport or a driving licence's plastic card?Are those people comfortable giving personal information to the US government to obtain as ESTA visa waiver, or will be ok giving it to the EU to obtain an ETIAS visa waiver when that scheme becomes operational. I suppose the EU might follow the GDPR but US Federal doesn't have an equivalent to that ...Given the information Meta, Google, Amazon, etc hold on UK citizens I wonder if concerns a out privacy and data protection are really logical and perhaps based on convenience and a sort of casual cost v benefit analysis?People should be concerned about how their personal information is being used but are they always consistent?

Michael Ixer ● 401d

Mr Boyce'Are there concerns over immigration and the UK's inability to control it amongst Labour supporters? Very much so, John, but racism, targeting minority groups, stirring up hatred etc. is another matter all together. 'As most if not all illegal immigrants are of a different racial group and cultural heritage from the indigenous white British majority, it is impossible to separate a desire to limit immigration from reference to race.The throwaway accusations of racism against those that question the Labour Government's immigration control measures is just diversionary obfuscation.

John Hawkes ● 401d

Hello Michael I,Apologies for butting in....I think the main concern of digital IDs is the issue of scams and hacking as well as phone theft.  At least, these are my main concern; I do not mind having an ID card, but the digital one is the one I particularly do not like.How will the ID card arrive or how will we know where we are supposed to "collect" it from?  How will we know it is the real one?  What happens if your phone is stolen? 

Ivonne Holliday ● 401d

‘ 20 million in the U.K. who are Awake…’ Presumably, not woke though? Can you name four politicians that you admire Paul; national and / or international so I can get a handle on this group of wide eyed individuals?

Gerry Boyce ● 401d

Ms Stevens'Don't we have enough of our own, Driving License, Passport, Nectar Card, Tesco Card, Boots, Bank Card, Electoral Register. Birth Certificate. etc etc etc'.Will I be eligible for Sainsburys 'special offers' if I prove my identity with my Nectar Card ?

John Hawkes ● 401d

Hi, Ivonne. No problem with those questions; I've been pondering how things like phone loss, theft, etc would be handled. However, as this is just an "idea" I don't think those questions can be or have been answered yet; I would imagine there's a lot of detailed design and testing to be done. Estonia and the Netherlands have digital identity systems that seem to be operating satisfactorily, and I've come across industry bodies that specialise in setting standards for identify management so it's definitely something that being considered. I think it's watch this space?

Michael Ixer ● 401d

Hello David Would suspect it’s actually more.At least 40% didn’t take the mRNAgood guide on who’s Awake in U.K.Since vaccine passports millions more are nowAwake… David what do you understand when I say Awake.Best P

Paul Beer ● 401d

Thank you, Michael I.I will certainly will watch this space, like a hawk! :-) :-)

Ivonne Holliday ● 401d

Gerry,Can you name four politicians that you admire?

Ed Robinson ● 401d

Didn’t vote in the passed 2 elections or any council elections I have very little respect for any Politicians especially after lockdown and vaccine passport debacle and 2030 agenda.Hopefully change is on the way… Best P

Paul Beer ● 401d

If I am challenged to prove my legitimate UK citizenship, would I have the right to challenge the challenger to prove his/her right to challenge me ?...."and so on ad infinitum".

John Hawkes ● 401d

Hello Michael Like to be healthy and safeso thankfully myself and family are mRA vaccine free.Feel strongly about process food and drinks sold in supermarket that cause health issues.Strongly object to council giving planning permission to 5G towers that are closer than 300 meters to properly’s EMF’s have made my wife unwell so  activity involved in our councils planning process.Best P

Paul Beer ● 401d

Of course I can, in fact I could name a lot more, but the ones that come to mind immediately are; Mo Mowlan, Gordon Brown, John Major, Ken Clarke, Charles Kennedy, Caroline Lucas, Clement Attlee, Jimmy Carter, Yitzhak Rabin, Mikhail Gorbachev, Angela Merkel and Volodymyr Zelenskyy.No too impressed with the current MP’s I’m afraid. The list of politicians that don’t impress me is much longer, but, c’est la vie, as they say in Italy.

Gerry Boyce ● 401d

How will you get the change you want if not through the ballot box? You know people fought and died for your right to vote? You are making a big mistake by not exercising it.If you can’t think of who you would like to see, ask someone who doesn’t have the right to vote and vote on their behalf (unless it’s Nigel, then don’t bother! 👊😎).

Gerry Boyce ● 401d

"David what do you understand when I say Awake."Dunno. Maybe that you have forgotten your bugle?Or that you are distributing the Jehovah's Witnesses magazine?

David Ainsworth ● 401d

"Can you name four politicians that you admire?"I take that as a no then Gerry, as you have named just two with the rest being dead or ex-politicians.I have to admit I can't. The couple that I might I would have to research and even then as with Rory Stuart, I may think there OK but then subsequently find that they may have possibly been working for foreign governments/organizations without declaring it to the UK voters.

Ed Robinson ● 401d

"Can you name four politicians that you admire?"I take that as a no then Gerry, as you have named just two with the rest being dead or ex-politicians.I have to admit I can't. The couple that I might I would have to research and even then as with Rory Stuart, I may think there OK but then subsequently find that they may have possibly been working for foreign governments/organizations without declaring it to the UK voters.

Ed Robinson ● 401d

"You know people fought and died for your right to vote?".Well, it may seem thoughtless, lazy or ungrateful, but not voting when you do have the right to vote is not the same as not voting because you do not have the right to vote at all.I believe that some places do have compulsory voting.Perhaps voting in elections should be a compulsory qualification for posting in this Forum?

David Ainsworth ● 401d

Sadly haven’t found any party for my vote since Blair’s debacle.Now I’am Awake can see that the UN and WEF control the agenda of Governments globally.Nobody should be hungry or homeless.It’s a crime we need a change.Best P

Paul Beer ● 401d

I can’t believe I left out Nelson Mandela, the most inspirational of all!

Gerry Boyce ● 401d

If we want only live politicians then I would mention the following that impress me; Jacinda ArdernMark CarneyKim LeadbeaterPresident of Guyana, Ifraan Ali.Rory Stewart.I think Rory would make a great ambassador or mayor, not sure he would step back into front line party politics. There are plenty of good politicians out there trying to change things for the better. It’s easy to be cynical and say they’re all the same, all bloody liars, in it for themselves etc. But it is not the case. There are better and there are worse ones. These, imho, are the good guys. Not perfect Ed, but who is?

Gerry Boyce ● 401d

Why not vote for The Greens, Paul. If you are fed up and cynical about the rest, which I understand why you would feel that way, then vote for the environment. Future generations will thank you.

Gerry Boyce ● 401d

Yes, I take your point about not voting as a choice as opposed to a denial of your ability. I’m guessing pretty much everyone here votes, at least most contributors seem pretty engaged politically, so not sure it would make any difference. But maybe a cap on the length of posts wouldn’t be bad; I find some of the 50,000word dissertations somewhat in need of a little editing.

Gerry Boyce ● 401d

"Not perfect Ed, but who is?"There is a big difference between not being perfect and holding up people as good politicians that didn't follow the ministerial code never mind the Nolan principals, never mind misleading the HoC multiple times.It's not unexpected however given the quality of journalism in the UK that people can be fooled so easily.The UK is not France where they have just jailed a former president. Until the UK stop giving honours, positions, TV programmes and air time to corrupt politicians UK outcomes will continue to be poor.

Ed Robinson ● 400d

I wouldn't use the expression 'holding up' Ed, I think it over-eggs it a bit.The politicians I admire are no saints, they have flaws, but many of them have had the charisma, integrity and vision to reach across political divides to achieve remarkable things. You're patronising little comment about people being fooled by journalism hints at quite a smug, self-satisfied attitude, don't you think, Ed? As regards the Nolan Principles; honesty, integrity, objectivity, accountability, selflessness, openness and leadership, they are very good general principles that are rightly applied to public officials. Similarly, the Ministerial Code is a good useful guide and tool.But to judge politicians by how near or far they matched up to these principles without any context on what they were trying to achieve, or overcome, then I find that myopic and simplistic.It is pretty revealing that you have only come close to almost naming one politician you admire, but then backtracked because of some suspicions you have. Why don't you hop off your high horse, leave the judging to those who are in full possession of the facts and can take a balanced view of things, and applaud politicians who do remarkable things; rather than low energy sniping from the back row.

Gerry Boyce ● 400d

I don’t agree, Ed, that the problem is simply one of corrupt government. It is true that many of the leading figures in the current government, starting with Keir Starmer, are venal. This was demonstrated by the freebies scandal. But the fundamental problem is that the Labour movement no longer stands for anything other than a vague mission to improve the lot of an undefined group called ‘working people’. The party was founded by utopian idealists who wanted to take the means of production into public ownership. Except for a fringe element no one in the party wants to do that now. Instead Labour has accepted the need for a market economy. Only some vestiges of its former ideology remain, such as a vague feeling that profit means exploitation and that the poor are poor because the rich are rich. Unfortunately these ideological remnants prevent Labour from running a market economy successfully. The prejudice against the profit motive has led to an expansion of state activity which is somehow regarded as more noble than private enterprise. So for example the number civil servants has increased by 34% since 2016, reaching over half a million FTEs in 2025. This increase is a drain on the public purse, which can only be met by higher taxes on ‘working people’. The notion that the wealth of the rich is the cause of the poverty of the poor is the motive behind calls among the Labour grassroots to redistribute wealth through the tax system by introducing a higher rate income tax band and a wealth tax. We have already seen an example of this in Rachel Reeve’s disastrous decision to increase employers’ NI contributions, on the grounds that employers can afford to pay more, which has slowed growth and increased unemployment.

Steven Rose ● 400d

Good morning Steve,I agree with some points you make but not all.For example: You indicate that Labour has accepted the need for a market economy and then: "Only some vestiges of its former ideology remain, such as a vague feeling that profit means exploitation and that the poor are poor because the rich are rich."It is true that for the last decade or so, the poor have become poorer and the rich much richer.  For example, Thames Water bills have been increasing enormously of late while infrastructure has not been updated and their executives have been taking eye-watering bonuses....  I call that profiteering and dishonest.  This is just an example.You say that "the number civil servants has increased by 34% since 2016, reaching over half a million FTEs in 2025".  I do not think that is the fault of the Labour government only, do you?The issue of NI contributions increase for employers "because they have the broader shoulders" was, and continues to be, idiotic, narrow minded, brainless and an imbecile decision of monumental proportions.

Ivonne Holliday ● 400d

I accept that most of the recent  growth in civil service numbers has taken place through Conservative administrations, mainly as a result of Brexit and the pandemic.  But the number grew by 2000 FTEs in the first quarter of this year, reaching 516 455, the highest figure since 2006.

Steven Rose ● 400d

"leave the judging to those who are in full possession of the fact"It's amazing given the recent revelations in the news that have taken years to come out that anyone can claim to be in full possession of the facts.Perhaps Gerry has another list of those that hold those that are in "full possession of the fact"!

Ed Robinson ● 400d

They are not called the uni-party for nothing.Points made against Labour can also be made against the conservatives. Or the other way around.Unless there is an agreement across the political spectrum on stardards and true reform and people stop give political cover to their preferred flavour of the uni-party then we will keep spiralling downwards.Many are still in denial about the extent of the problem, clinging to the UK's democratic system as if it's  a faith and can't be improved.

Ed Robinson ● 400d

"It is true that for the last decade or so, the poor have become poorer and the rich much richer."Longer than that. The last 4 decades."The wealth gap in the UK has significantly widened, especially since the 1980s, with a substantial increase in absolute wealth disparities even as relative wealth inequality has been high and relatively stable for decades. This surge in the absolute gap is largely driven by wealth generated from asset growth, particularly in the housing market, leading to higher living costs for those with no wealth and making it increasingly difficult for younger, less wealthy generations to build assets. Key Trends in the UK Wealth GapWidening Absolute Gap:While the proportion of wealth held by the richest 10% has remained fairly consistent over recent decades, the absolute value of their wealth has grown enormously. Increased Concentration of Wealth:Since the 1980s, the wealth gap has widened to its highest recorded level, second only to the US among advanced economies. Dominance of Asset Growth:The rise in net household wealth has been significantly influenced by capital gains from assets, especially housing, rather than increased savings, which has stretched the wealth distribution. Lack of Financial Buffer:The widening gap leaves a large portion of the population with little to no wealth, making them vulnerable to the rising cost of living and with limited financial assets to fall back on. Impact on Generations:Wealth inequality is now more pronounced across generations, with individuals born in the 1980s facing greater challenges to acquire wealth compared to earlier generations. Drivers of the Wealth GapHousing Market:The UK's housing market boom has been a significant factor in the rise of net household wealth and the widening gap between those who own assets and those who do not. Inheritance:The intergenerational transfer of wealth plays a key role, favoring those with wealthy parents and making it harder for others to climb the wealth ladder. Wealth Concentration:There is a trend toward the consolidation of resources into fewer hands, with wealth accumulating and amplifying over time. Consequences of the Wealth GapEconomic Impact:The wealth gap can undermine productivity, growth, and the ability to reach net zero targets.Social Impact:It reduces social cohesion and can damage faith in democracy. Life Chances:Wealth has a significant impact on life chances and outcomes, with those lacking assets facing higher levels of poverty. (AI)

David Ainsworth ● 400d

To fill the ideological void Labour have adopted a number of isms to convince themselves that they are the righteous party viz anti-racism (e.g. cancelling the Rwanda scheme), anti-colonialism (e.g handing over the Chagos Islands to Mauritius), anti-elitism (e.g. imposing VAT on private schools and extending IHT to family farms), environmentalism (e.g. forcing people to buy expensive heat pumps). All these go down well with a section of the metropolitan bien pensant left who dominate the Labour leadership. But they have little interest for and in some cases positively alienate Labour’s traditional voters many of whom are turning to Reform.

Steven Rose ● 400d

"forcing people to buy expensive heat pumps"What are you on about?

Michael Brigo ● 400d

I am surprised you ask. The government is planning to reach 600 000 heat pump installations by 2028 with the aim of phasing out gas boilers altogether by 2035. Heat pumps are noisy, expensive to install and expensive to run when electricity prices are high.

Steven Rose ● 400d

Pretty much everything you said is wrong. No clue on the 600,000 target but nobody is being 'forced' to do anything.

Michael Brigo ● 400d

"What does the gas boiler ban mean for me and my home?November 2023"Note the date, the ban applied to new homes.Now the latest news is:"The ban on the sale of new gas boilers in 2035 has been scrapped, according to reports released on 7th January. It’s thought the new Future Homes Standards (due to be announced by the Government later this year) will no longer include a ban on gas boilers in new builds. This means gas boilers will still be a viable option for homes across the country."https://www.britishgas.co.uk/the-source/greener-living/gas-boilers-ban-2025.htmlhttps://www.greenmatch.co.uk/boilers/gas/ban

Ed Robinson ● 400d

This is the problem with this country, a ban on boilers in new homes is now thought to be no longer applicable. So? Just hang on ‘til someone decides to give ‘clear’ guidance later on this year, which possibly or likely is to be revised a short time later. How are homeowners , architects, designers , builders or developers supposed to advise clients? ‘ I dunno mate, wait and see’. Jesus! What a mess.

Gerry Boyce ● 400d

Hello David,I totally agree that in the 80s, the housing market went completely mad.  But it was not only the private market but the purchase of council houses was allowed by individuals living in them at the time of purchase.  Nothing said they could not be sold or rented out.  Remember Dame Shirley Porter?One very important difference between the '80s and now is that mortgages then were much easier to get.  Then greed took hold, mortgages of up to 125% of the asking price for a property were granted and the rot set in then. Remember the period of negative equity?To be honest, I cannot remember homelessness in the '80s.  Better said, I cannot remember people sleeping in the street then.  But social housing building was reduced in the 80s but virtually stopped completely in 2010 or thereabouts when funding stopped for this purpose.When the EU introduced the Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive (ATAD), the response of the UK was to hold a referendum which resulted in Brexit.  All sorts of excuses were found but ATAD was the reason behind this, most strongly by the then Euro Sceptics.....I am not too sure I follow your statement of generational inheritance.  I can see no wrong with this.  Why not?  What alternative(s) do you have?  Tax avoidance and evasion I do mind enormously, but if I have worked very hard during my working life, why could I not leave my assets (however big or small) to my children? They will be taxed, even after I am dead!As for wealth concentration, can you imagine what this will be like with the introduction of AI?

Ivonne Holliday ● 400d

After announcing the BritCard will be mandatory for those who work in the UK they have suddenly remembered that Northern Ireland is part of the UK.A lot of back peddling going on apparently.Why do people support these clowns?"BritCard: a mandatory national digital identity that would be issued free of charge to all those with the right to live or work in the UK, whether they are British-born nationals or legal migrants. The BritCard would be a verifiable digital credential downloaded onto a user’s smartphone, which could be instantly checked by employers or landlords using a free verifier app."By introducing a mandatory, universal, national identity credential - BritCard - the Labour Government has the opportunity to build a new piece of civic infrastructure"https://www.labourtogether.uk/all-reports/britcard

Ed Robinson ● 400d

If it is called a Britcard, then I assume it applies to Britain, not the UK.  Therefore, the North of Ireland does not come in to play.  If the ‘powers that be’ have not really considered this, then I assume that would be a little bit of an  absolute f*ck up, guys. Anyway, let’s see how it plays out.

Gerry Boyce ● 400d

If you think Keir Starmer is hopelessly out of his depth, consider what his rival, Andy Burnham, has to offer.His view that ‘We’ve got to get beyond this thing of being in hock to the bond markets’ must win the prize for the most stupid comment made by a politician this year. As one journalist put it, that’s  like a rock climber saying that we have to get beyond this thing called gravity.Andy Burnham is apparently urging the Labour Party to embrace ‘Manchesterism’, which he defines as business-friendly socialism’, in which the state should seize control of ‘the basics of life’ (i.e. housing, energy, water, rail). Oh, and the state should also borrow £40 billion for new council housing. Never mind that the annual interest payments on government borrowing already stand at £100 billion, more than the country spends on defence.What about his own record on council house building as Mayor of Manchester? In May 2024 he announced he was going to build 10 000 houses by 2028. In over a year Manchester has  started construction on just 10, not 10 000, just 10.

Steven Rose ● 400d

Definitely says UK even the .gov website.Seems to have upset all parties in Northern Ireland. BBC "NI parties unite in criticism over Starmer's digital ID scheme" "Why will it be a legal requirement in some instances?To help tackle illegal working, it will be a legal requirement for employers to check your digital ID as proof of your right to work, for instance before you start a new job.That’s because only UK citizens and legal residents will be able to have one – so those coming here illegally, will not be able to prove their right to work.However, we will ensure there are alternative routes to obtain the digital ID for those who cannot use a smart phone, or need extra assistance."https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/digital-id-scheme-explainer/digital-id-scheme-explainer

Ed Robinson ● 400d

Given up whanging on about heat pump conspiracy theories then and just moved onto something else?

Michael Brigo ● 400d

The heat pump story is not a conspiracy theory. The Conservatives originally set a target of installing 600 000 heat pumps per year by 2028 with the aim of phasing out gas boilers by 2035. Ed Miliband is supposedly poised to abandon the 2028 deadline for 600 000 heat pumps but has not done so. As regards gas boilers, Miliband has denied that Labour ever had a plan to phase them out by 2035. But he has declined to say whether there would be a ban on fossil fuel heating on new builds in the future. Meanwhile he has introduced a ‘boiler tax’ on firms which fail to install a sufficient number of heat pumps. This cost will be passed onto the consumer through higher prices on boilers. The price increase has been estimated to be £120, making them less affordable. He has also relaxed the rules on noise pollution resulting from noisy heat pumps. He has spent £700 million on heat pump subsidies since becoming Secretary of State.So while there are no plans to force homeowners to rip out their gas boilers, it is fair to say that Labour intends to make gas boilers less affordable while encouraging the use of heat pumps even though they are expensive to install, noisy in operation and expensive to run when electricity prices rise.

Steven Rose ● 400d

I see the Swiss have just voted for digital ID Cards by a narrow margin:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdr624j16jpo

Michael Ixer ● 400d

Thankyou for admitting that you were wrong and nobody is going to be forced to have a heat pump.Incidentally my dad has one and it's basically whisper quiet - it makes a noise but you can't really hear it over the general backgroup noise of the outdoors.

Michael Brigo ● 399d

I have a digital ID in Spain. The only time I seem to need it is when I login to a government or my local council website and it pops up a little ID request that I then use the digital ID to validate. All painless and tbh I have no idea what all the fuss is about in the UK.

Matt Palmer ● 399d

"All painless and tbh I have no idea what all the fuss is about in the UK."A preference for human interaction?"A significant portion of the population still prefers or needs human interaction, with one in three UK adults preferring to do all their banking in person, according to a 2023 survey." (AI) (OK, ha-ha for me using it in this case)

David Ainsworth ● 399d

Hello Matt,How lovely to hear from you!  The problem is not the idea of ID cards, the problem is the idea of digital IDs considering the level of scamming and hacking going on in the UK.  Does it happen often in Spain?Also, the level of phone thefts is really alarming....  What happens in Spain if somebody does not have a smart phone or their smart phone is damaged say by dropping it accidentally.I suppose the idea of digital ID cards is that they would be much cheaper to "produce" compared to physical ones.

Ivonne Holliday ● 399d

Hi and thanks, Matt. I think if one does a pros/cons analysis Digital IDs make sense, but I think there's a lot of hysteria at the moment because of the cyber attacks on some well known UK brands: M&S, JLR, Coop, Harrogate, British Library, ... and, of course, the UK doesn't have a great track record of carrying out projects!

Michael Ixer ● 399d

This thread is about digital ID cards but Labour's plan to introduce them is symptomatic of its performative style of government, going through the motions of running the country while actually achieving nothing. The three most important tasks facing the government on the domestic front are cutting the  welfare bill, stopping illegal immigration and reducing energy prices for the consumer. Unfortunately the government is prevented from taking the necessary steps to achieve these aims by large numbers of its own MPs and party activists who regard cutting welfare payments as cruel, deterring and deporting illegal immigrants as racist and making energy cheaper as environmentally destructive. So instead Labour pretends to deal with these problems by taking a series of irrelevant measures, some of which are positively harmful. On the economy Rachel Reeves has tried to maintain welfare spending  by taxing the rich, most notably in her disastrous decision to increase employers' NI contributions, which has slowed growth and increased unemployment. On illegal immigration, Keir Starmer has come up with digital ID cards, a hugely expensive measure, open to abuse by government, which will do nothing to deter migrants since dodgy employers working in the black economy will not bother to ask for ID cards. And as regards energy, Miliband has promoted the idea that green energy will reduce bills whereas the opposite is true. Heat pumps are much more expensive to install than gas boilers whose use he is discouraging by his boiler tax.

Steven Rose ● 399d

To answer David's point first. I can simply walk down to my local council office, take a number and wait my turn. They are highly efficient - it's just easier for me to do things via my laptop or phone. No reason why you can't do it in person though.The 'ID' is kind of just a file, you can copy it anywhere you like to keep it safe. When I changed my phone over last year you just run through a v simple process to install it on the new device.I should say that at this point it is not compulsory to have it - it's more a convenience for those who choose to use it.Personally I have no issues with it at all - I can see why people are wary but there seems a lot of overblown big brother hysteria to me.

Matt Palmer ● 399d

Interesting analysis from Steve, straight in from 1980s.

Gerry Boyce ● 399d

The potential danger of digital IDs is illustrated by China where you now need them to catch a train, apply for a job, buy a SIM card, open a bank account or rent a flat. This means that the Chinese authorities, by the simple expedient of freezing the ID card, have the power to prevent citizens from travelling, make them unemployable, keep them incommunicado, penniless and homeless. Do we want to give that much power to the state?

Steven Rose ● 399d

Steven Rose: In China you cannot apply for a job without a digital IDAlso Steven Rose: In the UK digital ID won't work because dodgy employers working in the black economy will not bother to ask for ID cards.

Michael Brigo ● 399d

Ivonne, I think those are reasonable questions, and I'm sure they will be discussed in detail as plans evolve. I note, looking at the Estonia system, there have been some issues with digital certificates meaning at one point many needed to be replaced and a supplier had to pay the Estonian government significant compensation. However, it would seem this security issue was dealt with and as far as I know not exploited. 

Michael Ixer ● 399d

In my opinion, Steven, that's a great case for retaining the ECHR as a backstop to any grab back of rights by a future UK government.

Michael Ixer ● 399d

"This means that the Chinese authorities, by the simple expedient of freezing the ID card, have the power to prevent citizens from travelling, make them unemployable, keep them incommunicado, penniless and homeless. Do we want to give that much power to the state?"Don't give Trump ideas! I was going to write that I wouldn't want to give that power to Netanyahu, but I realised that he already has most of that power over the Gazans. Mind you, digital has certainly helped him.

David Ainsworth ● 399d

I am flattered, Michael B, that you read my posts with such attention. But there is no contradiction. Clearly it is easier for the state to misuse ID cards in respect of automated systems than rather human interaction. So the lack of a valid ID card is unlikely to deter dodgy cash-in-hand employers and landlords (unless there are draconian punishments for those who break the law), but freezing ID cards will certainly prevent people from opening bank accounts and buying train tickets. ID cards also give the state the power to geolocate individuals.As to the ECHR, Michael I, I think the British people are perfectly capable of safeguarding their own human rights with recourse to a foreign court.

Steven Rose ● 399d

The point you made was that in China you can't get a job if the gov freezes your ID and yet in the UK apparently it will be irrelevant.So yes, there was a complete contradiction.

Matt Palmer ● 399d

If the British people are perfectly capable of safeguarding their own human rights then what are you worried about?

Michael Brigo ● 399d

'In May 2024 he announced he was going to build 10,000 houses by 2028'.It's September 2025, Steve. Do you have any idea how long it takes to design 10,000 houses? Consult with all the stakeholders, statutory bodies, local communities etc. This is before submitting planning applications and having them considered and, with luck approved. usually, consents come with a long list of detailed conditions which need to be discharged. Following this stage, there is the technical stage which requires building control approval. Which then needs a specification and schedule of works and building contracts which can be put out to tender. Once the tender stage is complete and a contractor is appointed, then a commencement date can be agreed.In connection with the above are party wall awards, licenses, 106 agreements etc etc. All of the above, and more, needs to be in place before a contractor can even begin to clear the site, and set up facilities for workers etc. Then, and only then can a shovel hit the dirt and groundworks commence.It amazes and baffles that you are so unashamed to pour forth your opinionated ignorance in public.

Gerry Boyce ● 399d

That the Government are total fools and constantly playing catch up.

Robert Wheeler ● 399d

The Chinese system make it impossible to get an official position without an ID card but that does not exclude the possibility of getting an informaljob. I am sure there are many people in China working cash in hand for dodgy employers. No ID system can eliminate illegal work entirely, There will always be employers eager to avoid tax and workers willing to do a job at reduced rates of pay if they have no right to work. That is why  Starmer’s plan to introduce ID cards is unlikely to deter illegal migration. Rolling out a digital ID system would also be hugely expensive. And I am not convinced that human rights legislation would necessarily protect British citizens from the system being abused by the state. Certain things have a way of being introduced incrementally on the pretext that they make life simpler. If there are objections, the refrain is likely to be, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear’.

Steven Rose ● 399d

Gotcha, so a couple of hours ago the Chinese system was terrifying overreach. Now it probably doesn't work?Feels a bit like you are constantly changing your story. A bit like how yesterday people would be 'forced to buy heat pumps' and now people will be encouraged.Oh well.

Michael Brigo ● 399d

Hello again, Michael I,The truth is, if you have been scammed once, you become highly sensitive to the issue.I read this on the BBC website and it made me cringe!'You'll never need to work again': Criminals offer reporter money to hack BBChttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w5n903447o

Ivonne Holliday ● 399d

It seems to me  that many of your posts are a series of ‘gotcha’ moments where you imagine that you have caught out people who challenge your prejudices. In this case, as in many others, your ‘gotcha’ is entirely spurious. The Chinese system is an example of unacceptable if not terrifying overreach. The fact that some people in China probably manage to live under the radar does not  alter the fact that the state, through its digital ID system, can and does exercise a great deal of control over the lives of Chinese citizens. The objection to Starmer’s plan is that it won’t deter illegal migrants  but it will subject everybody else to unnecessary bureaucracy  which could be misused by an authoritarian government. Where is the contradiction?On net zero, Miliband is not merely encouraging individuals to install heat pumps through (expensive) subsidies, - he is also imposing a boiler tax, in effect a fine, on heating companies which fail to sell a sufficient number of heat pumps. This will obviously reduce the number of gas boilers produced and the number of companies willing to install them. The tax will be passed on to the consumer by selling the boilers at a higher price. Miliband has not yet clarified whether the government will ban fossil fuels in new builds at some future date. Thus Miliband is creating a situation in which, when the boilers need replacing, people will find it difficult to to replace them with anything but heat pumps.

Steven Rose ● 399d

Hello Michael I,This is on the BBC website and it is very worrying indeed!'You'll never need to work again': Criminals offer reporter money to hack BBChttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w5n903447o

Ivonne Holliday ● 399d

"Thus Miliband is creating a situation in which, when the boilers need replacing, people will find it difficult to to replace them with anything but heat pumps."Indeed, and when the banks have closed down their last building, and, eventually, the last cash machine, we will be forced to be digital.

David Ainsworth ● 399d

Thanks, Ivonne. Yes, I saw the report on BBC News. It's something that some companies know they need to look out for. Companies do have controls; for example, some companies will only allow their systems to be accessed using a device owned, configured and controlled by them (give your identity credentials to someone else and they won't be of any use on thei devices). There may be ways around thst, but there are other monitoring controls that can be implmented, so anyone accepting a bribe is at risk of being discovered.Sadly, nothing is foolproof and some companies don't or can't afford to implement stringent controls. I think there's a number of cases of police people looking up information on individuals they shouldn't, but I'm told HMRC has strict controls over which taxpayers' files staff view and have to account for their actions if it's outside of their normal remit. What I find interesting is that if a company accountant didn't know where all the money is, who's using it and what it's being used for they'd be in trouble; data these days is an equally valuable asset but some companies are very cavalier about where it's stored, who's using it and what they're doing with it ...

Michael Ixer ● 399d

Yes you are correct, I do enjoy watching you twist yourself in knots!

Michael Brigo ● 399d

According to reports quoting Centre for Economic Policy Research (CEPR), the black economy is 25% of Spains GDP in 2025.The UK government is trying to mis-sell it on the back of reducing the black economy when effectively they are supporting the black economy due to their migration policy.Now they have just realized that Northern Ireland is part of the UK and will have to be exempt or it will mean many businesses closing down due to cross border employment and the back tracking of UK agreements with the EU ultimately putting the GFA at risk.

Ed Robinson ● 399d

I assumed they called it the Brit card cause it only applies to Britain, as opposed to the UK card, which would include Northern Ireland.

Gerry Boyce ● 399d

"I assumed they called it the Brit card cause it only applies to Britain, as opposed to the UK card, which would include Northern Ireland."Gerry,I have supplied links to the government website as well as Labour's website and the BBC news item.They all make it clear that it applies to the whole UK.Calling a "Brit Card" does not change its definition.
Also it is not refered to a Brit Card on the government's website.
Clearly either the government is trying to back away from the EU agreements & GFA or they forgot about Northern Ireland.
Neither is good news!

Guidance
Digital ID scheme: explainer
Published 26 September 2025
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/digital-id-scheme-explainer/digital-id-scheme-explainer
Digital ID scheme: explainerPublished 26 September 2025

Ed Robinson ● 399d

Cheers for the link, Ed.Hmmm! I wonder how this ID card will go down in the North of Ireland. The GFA enabled people to choose their identity, either UK or Irish. A BritCard will never be accepted by a sizeable section of the community there. I don’t know, I guess after the consultation they might rebrand it or leave the north out. Interesting conundrum.

Gerry Boyce ● 399d

you imagine that you have caught out people who challenge your prejudices.Maybe it’s your prejudices that others here are challenging. Your dislike of a Labour government and Starmer in particular means that any policy change they make meets with your contempt.

Jane Carter ● 398d

Jane, anyone who prefaces a post with 'gotcha' can fairly be described at taking a smug satisfaction in supposedly catching out someone whose views he disagrees with. In the case of the ID card his sense of triumph was unmerited because the contradiction which he thought he had exposed is no contradiction at all. Two objections have been raised to Keir Starmer's plan.  One is that the scheme will be hugely expensive but won't actually deter illegal migrants because dodgy employers won't bother to check whether they have the right to work. The ID system will simply place additional obligations on law abiding people. The other objection is that ID cards are at variance with British tradition (except during the war) and could be misused in future by an authoritarian government who wished to extend their use (as has happened in China). Now you can agree or disagree with either of these points but they are not in contradiction with one another. They can both be true.  So rather than question my motives in raising these objections, don't you think it would be more useful to explain why you think I am wrong? Just to take the first one, it is already illegal for employers to take on staff who have no right to work in this country. But dodgy employers are willing to break the law by paying immigrants cash in hand. What makes you think they bother to check whether a migrant has a valid ID card?

Steven Rose ● 398d

Steven, going back to one of your previous posts, surely the British public wouldn't vote in an authoritarian government."As to the ECHR, Michael I, I think the British people are perfectly capable of safeguarding their own human rights with recourse to a foreign court."

Michael Ixer ● 398d

I don't think, Michael, that the British people would vote in an authoritarian government. But the trappings of authoritarian rule such as security guards, surveillance cameras and now Id ID cards are already with us. I can see a future in which their use might be extended by a supposedly democratic government in order supposedly to protect the public.

Steven Rose ● 398d

I dont think security guards and surveillance cameras are examples of the trappings of authoritarian rule. They are there to fight crime and protect the public. Digital ID cards are clearly more controversial.

Jane Carter ● 398d

Maybe not. Steven, but it seems to me inadvisable to vote for anyone who wants to remove the backstop of the ECHR. By all means enter into negotiations to update it, or suspended parts of it for security reasons, but in my opinion anyone who wants to leave it has ulterior motives. I doubt you'll change my views on that.

Michael Ixer ● 398d

Labour, the Conservatives and Reform, I believe, all wish to stop illegal migrants and foreign criminals from using the European Convention on Human Rights to block deportation orders. The parties differ only on the means of achieving this. Labour and the Conservatives appear to think it is possible to disapply certain parts of the ECHR while Reform wishes to withdraw altogether.Withdrawal from ECHR does not mean that the British people would then be bereft of human rights. Many of these rights have existed in Britain for centuries. Indeed a British lawyer helped to draft the original Convention after the war. Other rights embodied in the Convention could be incorporated within British law if Parliament so wishes.

Steven Rose ● 398d

Interesting snippet from Liberty: What are politicians proposing?After the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) grounded the first planned flight of refugees to Rwanda, some politicians have raised the possibility of the UK leaving the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR).This would make the UK the first nation to voluntarily withdraw from the ECHR.The only other European nations not signed up to the ECHR are Belarus, and Russia – which has been expelled because of Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. I wonder why Steve is so obsessed with withdrawing from the ECHR? 🤣

Gerry Boyce ● 398d

I am hardly obsessed with withdrawal from the ECHR. I don't think I have ever posted about this issue  on the Forum and I haven't made up my mind about the options. But I note that the government is apparently looking into how it might 'reform' the ECHR.

Steven Rose ● 398d

"The only other European nations not signed up to the ECHR are Belarus, and Russia"I think you missed out Vatican City, Kazakhstan, Kosovo.There was a time when some people argued that leaving the ECHR would put the GFA at risk.I guess some will no longer will argue that as this proposal for Digital ID also puts the GFA at risk!

Ed Robinson ● 398d

This is Liberty’s view: Leaving the ECHR would put everyone’s rights at risk. The ECtHR is a person’s last resort for holding the state to account when it has abused their rights.The Government is already planning to weaken human rights in the UK through its Rights Removal Bill, which will make it much harder for people to get justice if their rights have been abused.Without the protection of the Human Rights Act or the ECHR, the UK Government would have the power to do whatever it wants to individuals’ rights with no threat of consequences.Leaving the ECHR would also breach the Good Friday Agreement, which requires that the Convention be directly enforceable in Northern Ireland. This would threaten the peace settlement. I certainly am not qualified to fully comprehend  how the ECHR could be reformed, and I certainly don’t look to politicians to give me a straight and truthful answer, so I’ll stick with the court as it is. Let the legal eagles do their job.

Gerry Boyce ● 398d

I think the government here will need to negotiate with the Irish government to figure out how the ID card could work in the north, given the porous nature of the border and the ability for people to live on one side and work on the other etc  I guess it will be a stroll in the park compared to all the shenanigans over Brexit with clowns like Mark Francois and the European Research Group 🤣 demonstrating their ignorance and arrogance in equal measures. Nothing in the North is ever straightforward, let’s see what happens. Definitely wouldn’t call it a Brit Card, that’s a hard no!

Gerry Boyce ● 398d

Interesting, Ed. Kosovo is a young nation and not yet recognised by all EU members. It apparently has aspirations to join the EU, a prerequisite of which would usually be to sign up to the ECHR. And as Kazakhstan is in Central Asia it think can be discounted as not being European. The Vatican City is an oddity, all its residents would have started with nationalities from other countries (the current Pope is a US citizen), and as its circa 800 citizens are mainly celibate males and nuns it presumably has a zero birth rate? Would it gain much from being an ECHR member?Ireland is an interesting case. Aside from any GFA issues it's also a member of the Common Travel Area (CTA). This is a long-standing arrangement not only between the United Kingdom and Ireland, but also includes the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands; it allows citizens of these areas to travel, reside, and work without the need for routine immigration control or special permission. That probably needs some thought with regards to identity cards?

Michael Ixer ● 398d

Liberty can afford to pose as the guardians of human rights because they don’t have to find the money to subsidise  illegal migrants and foreign criminals who exploit the ECHR to avoid deportation. The Convention was drafted in the aftermath of the war to safeguard citizens from totalitarian rule, both of the right and the left. But since then activists judges have interpreted provisions such as Article 3, prohibiting torture and degrading treatment, and Article 8, on the right to family life, in such a way as to prevent the deportation of individuals because the prison cells might be smaller in their homeland or because their children prefer to live in the UK. That is why Keir Starmer, who used to earn a living as a radical lawyer blocking such deportations, is now looking (as he admitted on Radio Four today) at ways of reforming the Convention.

Steven Rose ● 397d

Sorry Michael,My reply last night has failed.Anyway Kazakhstan like Russia is in both as both countries span the Ural river, which is the boundary between Europe and Russia.It's probably why many central Europeans are puzzled when we refer to them as Eastern Europeans."That probably needs some thought with regards to identity cards?"Yes it does seem that this threat to the GFA has been pulled out of a hat with no thought for the consequences to the GFA. There again Johnson's and Starmer's committed to the GFA has always been a bit suspect!

Ed Robinson ● 397d

Ed, this site  has a habit of throwing posts away or letter one making multiple entries.I've always considered Kazakhstan as a Cetral Asian State. and when I did a quick check last night Google's AI seemed to agree! But I can see it's western extreme does straddle the Ural River so on closer inspection, yes, agreed part of it is in Europe; however, I don't think an application has ever been submitted to join the ECHR, and I don't think their human rights record is very good? Anyway, I guess the moral is to double check AI results. (Interestingly someone from an AI company I was chatting to last week agreed a human sanity check was often a sensible idea!)

Michael Ixer ● 397d