Forum Topic

Well done Keir.

At last, something to be proud of; Britain has recognised the state of Palestine. I hope, and believe, this brings us closer to peace for both Palestinians and Israelis. A two state solution is the only answer. End the bloodshed. Release the hostages. The sooner the better!

Gerry Boyce ● 1d20 Comments

Mr RoseYou are right to point out that Mahmoud Abbas is a very dodgy customer and the epitome of Arab politics in the Middle East.Note when he was elected and how he has maintained power ever since.No open elections by the populace but instead inter and intra party politics carried out by male leaders of different factions.Apparently - 'he has been serving as the second president of Palestine and the Palestinian National Authority (PNA) since 2005. He has also been the fourth chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) since 2004. Abbas is also a member of the Fatah party and was elected the party's chairman in 2009.Abbas was elected on 9 January 2005 to serve as President of the Palestinian National Authority until 15 January 2009, but extended his term until the next election in 2010, citing the PLO constitution, and on 16 December 2009 was voted into office indefinitely by the PLO Central Council. As a result, Fatah's main rival, Hamas, initially announced that it would not recognize the extension or view Abbas as the rightful president. Nonetheless, Abbas is internationally recognized in his position(s) and Hamas and Fatah conducted numerous negotiations in the following years, leading to an agreement in April 2014 for a Unity Government (which lasted until October 2016) and to the recognition of his office by Hamas. Abbas was chosen to continue serving as president by the PLO Central Council on 23 November 2008.Abbas has been subject to both criticism and controversy, having been accused of corruption, as well as distorting Jewish history and engaging in Holocaust trivialization.'

John Hawkes ●

Mr Boyce'There was a lot of sympathy towards Israel in the period after the attack by Hamas, but this has now gone because of the relentless and vicious genocide that Netanyahu is prosecuting with no interest in finding a negotiated solution.If they don't recognise Palestine now, there may well be nothing left to recognise shortly.'Are you suggesting that the actions of Israel in defending itself from attacks by Palestinians, and those of Hamas whose Charter declares an objective of the annihilation of Israel and the Jews are equivalent and both examples of genocide ?Do you foresee Hamas ever releasing the hostages and corpses it took in the October 2023 pogrom ?And are its actions both the reason many people have no sympathy with the cause of a Palestinian state and due to the risk it would subject Israel to have good reason to hope it never happens ?

John Hawkes ●

"So it understandable that the Israelis are reluctant to agree to an independent state on the West Bank which could  be governed by a terrorist organisation dedicated to the destruction of Israel."Well, the Palestinians have actually had to live with a nuclear-armed, US-backed Israel which has destroyed any chance of an independent Palestinian state. The Palestinians were there on the land. Apparently they had no right to defend themselves.

David Ainsworth ● 13m

Opinion polls suggest that if the Palestinian Authority, led by Mahmoud Abbas, were ever to hold an election on the West Bank, 80% of the electorate would vote for the Hamas candidate rather than Abbas. So it understandable that the Israelis are reluctant to agree to an independent state on the West Bank which could  be governed by a terrorist organisation dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

Steven Rose ● 13h

Hello Robert,I think there are other issues to add to the equation.  Israel trying (or determined) to take over the West Bank too, for example?

Ivonne Holliday ● 16h

"Obviously there needs to be a solution but recognition of a state controlled by terrorists is not the answer."Are you sure?"Terrorism doth never prosper: what's the reason?Why, if it prosper, none dare call it terrorism."(with thanks to Sir John Harington)

David Ainsworth ● 17h

I guess this is something that at least some of the nations involved have discussed for them to all do it at more or less the same time? So perhaps not necessarily related to UK politics? It could be public opinion, or it could be timed to coincide with the UN General Assembly meeting. I was reflecting that, if one ignores underlying details and nuances, we have an example of the Reynolds couple being held by the Taliban in Afghanistan whose release has been negotiated by Qatar, then the other example of the Israeli government's decision to bomb Qatar while the Qataries are trying to facilitate a ceasefire in Gaza. It's perhaps not the publicity that looks favourable for Netanyu and his government? (I'm phrasing it that way as I'm sure many Israelis didn't suppost the attack on Qatar in the same way it's obvious from this forum not all support the UK government's recognition of the Palestine State.)

Michael Ixer ● 19h

The political mood has not changed only Starmer frightened of his back benchers and independents.  Nothing new here if it was genuine he would have done it earlier.  The overwhelming electorate have had enough as the polls show.Obviously there needs to be a solution but recognition of a state controlled by terrorists is not the answer.

Robert Wheeler ● 20h

I suspect that the reason the UK, Canada, Australia, Portugal and very soon France are recognising the state of Palestine now is that they are sensing that the public and political mood has changed. There was a lot of sympathy towards Israel in the period after the attack by Hamas, but this has now gone because of the relentless and vicious genocide that Netanyahu is prosecuting with no interest in finding a negotiated solution.If they don't recognise Palestine now, there may well be nothing left to recognise shortly.

Gerry Boyce ● 20h

Mr AinsworthWe all know your rabid hatred of Israel and so for you the more pressure put on it by Western politicians to support their Muslim vote the better.You ask 'Has Israel ever carried out any massacres, rapes, assassinations, invasions, surprise attacks, ethnic cleansings, do you think? Has she been 'rewarded'?Well inform us of the massacres, rapes, and ethnic cleansings.The other actions you list were necessary for self defence against Hamas, a group that publicly declares its desire for the annihilation of Israel and the Jews which from what you post would seem to indicate you would support.Yes Israel does get financial and other support from the USA.Why is it that the oil rich Arab states are not so forthcoming with money and political support for Hamas and the Palestinians one might ask.

John Hawkes ● 21h

Hello Michael,That was my first thought.  What do they know that we do not?

Ivonne Holliday ● 21h

Mr Rose'They (Hamas) will greet his decision with joy and declare victory'.They are doing so already.I started a thread some time ago called "The art of the deal" referring to Trump, which recalled then how this did NOT apply to Starmer.Now he has recognised 'Palestine', a political, legal and territorial entity which does NOT exist other than in the form of Gaza run by a terrorist group Hamas which the UK has proscribed and the Palestine Authority run by ageing antisemite Mahmoud Abbas who claims Hitler killed Jews because of their 'social role' instead of religion."The PA leader was accused of Holocaust denialism after making the controversial remarks at his Fatah party’s Revolutionary Council"Hamas still hold numerous hostages and the corpses of those they murdered and show no intent in freeing them.Starmer has totally ignored this fact and obviously thinks it irrelevant.

John Hawkes ● 21h

"is their some intelligence information western governments have that's not publicly available?"What would that be?

David Ainsworth ● 22h

And Canada, Australia, Portugal … with France and others expected to follow today. For whatever reason views are challenging… is their some intelligence information western governments have that's not publicly available?

Michael Ixer ● 22h

"On the contrary, Israel offered the Palestinians an independent state on two occasions, 2000 and 2008, and their offer was twice rejected."The offer was not one of an independent state.

David Ainsworth ● 1d

"It is dangerous because he has effectively rewarded Hamas for their massacre  on October 7."Has Israel ever carried out any massacres, rapes, assassinations, invasions, surprise attacks, ethnic cleansings, do you think? Has she been 'rewarded'?Military aid from the U.S.: Total inflation-adjusted assistance since 1948 is over $300 billion, with a significant majority being military aid. Recent years have seen annual military aid to Israel at $3.8 billion, plus large supplemental packages. Israel's second major arms supplier is Germany.This won't change.

David Ainsworth ● 1d

You only have a border if you can protect it otherwise it's just a line on the map internationally recognized or not.Who will protect any such boarders?

Ed Robinson ● 1d

On the contrary, Israel offered the Palestinians an independent state on two occasions, 2000 and 2008, and their offer was twice rejected.

Steven Rose ● 1d

"It is meaningless because Palestine has no recognised borders"It is meaningless because Israel has no recognised borders with Gaza and the West Bank."The Israel-Gaza border is not an internationally recognized border and is heavily disputed. The exact contours and final legal status of the border have never been formally settled and were intended to be determined in future Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, which have so far proved fruitless.""Palestinian territories (West Bank and Gaza): The 1949 Armistice Agreements (the "Green Line") established temporary demarcation lines after the Arab-Israeli War. The final status of these borders was meant to be decided through negotiation. However, due to ongoing conflicts and the expansion of Israeli settlements, these borders have never been formally settled. The international community considers East Jerusalem and the West Bank as occupied territory.""Syria (Golan Heights): During the Six-Day War in 1967, Israel captured the Golan Heights from Syria. Israel annexed the territory in 1981, but this move has not been recognized by the international community.Lebanon: The border with Lebanon is largely based on the 1949 armistice line, which the United Nations verified and marked as the "Blue Line" in 2000. However, some disputes remain.""Internationally recognized borders:-Egypt: A mutually recognized and confirmed border was established with the Egypt-Israel peace treaty in 1979.Jordan: This border was formally recognized and finalized with the Israel-Jordan peace treaty in 1994."----------------------------------"The Israelis will never agree to the creation of a Palestinian state run by Hamas which threatens their own existence."More exact:-The Israelis will never agree to the creation of a Palestinian state. The current Israeli government is emphatically opposed to the creation of a Palestinian state. They have taken steps, such as expanding settlements in the West Bank, that make the prospect of an independent Palestinian state increasingly difficult to achieve.

David Ainsworth ● 1d

Keir Starmer's decision to recognise a Palestinian state is meaningless, hypocritical, dangerous and futile. It is meaningless because Palestine has no recognised borders, no constitution, two authoritarian not to say brutal administrations which are in deadly enmity while the territory itself is currently under Israeli occupation. The justification given by Starmer, that it is the moral thing to do, is pure hypocrisy. If he really believed that recognition was a moral imperative, he would have recognised Palestine upon taking office. Instead he has unsuccessfully used recognition as a ploy to blackmail Israel into accepting a ceasefire on Hamas' terms. It is dangerous because he has effectively rewarded Hamas for their massacre  on October 7. They will greet his decision with joy and declare victory. And it is futile because his claim that it represents the best 'hope for peace' and a two state solution is absurd. The Israelis will never agree to the creation of a Palestinian state run by Hamas which threatens their own existence.

Steven Rose ● 1d