Forum Topic

An ageing student writes

Gdn today:-"Starmer defends engaging with Israel, saying refusing to do so would be student politicsStephen Flynn (SNP) asked why the Israeli president was being invited to Downing Street. He said Isaac Herzog was someone who “called for the collective punishment of the Palestinian people and who signed the artillery shells that destroyed their homes, their families and their friends”.Starmer replied:We have suspended arms that could be used in Gaza. We have sanctioned extremists. We suspended trade talks.But the point he raised is a very serious one. We all want an outcome that ensures peace, that the hostages get out, that aid gets in under a two-state outcome. It is the only way we will get peace in a region that has suffered conflict for a very, very long time. I will not give up on diplomacy – that is the politics of students.""--------------------------------Peter Oborne:-"In October 2023 he [Herzog] claimed that all Palestinians in Gaza were "unequivocally" responsible for the 7 October Hamas attack on southern Israel."It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved," he said in remarks that South Africa submitted to the International Court of Justice (ICJ) during its genocide case against Israel."---------------------"The Netanyahu government’s handling of the war in Gaza is “leading Israel to pariah status,” Health Secretary Wes Streeting warned Tuesday, ahead of Israeli President Isaac Herzog’s visit to the U.K.Herzog is set to visit Britain this week “to show solidarity with the Jewish community, which is under severe attack and facing a wave of antisemitism,” according to his office.But, Streeting, who narrowly held his north London constituency last year against a challenge from a pro-Palestinian candidate, said the Israeli president must be held accountable for the worsening humanitarian situation in Gaza.“He needs to answer the allegations of war crimes, of ethnic cleansing and of genocide that are being levelled at the government of Israel,” Streeting told Times Radio on Tuesday. “He needs to explain how, when we have seen so much evidence of the atrocities being perpetrated by the Israeli army, how he can possibly claim that the IDF is the most moral army in the world.”The health secretary stressed while Hamas’ attacks against Israel on Oct. 7, 2023 “united the world in condemnation,” they could not “be answered with a level of civilian innocent loss and suffering that we’re seeing in Gaza.”Streeting added: “This Israeli government is leading Israel to pariah status and finding itself increasingly isolated on the international stage.”" (Politico 9/9/25)

David Ainsworth ● 39d42 Comments

Michael, I am not sure you understand my point. It has been suggested that Israel is wrong to inflict collective punishment on the Palestinian population of Gaza for the crimes of Hamas since Hamas and the Palestinians are not the same thing. I think the distinction between the two is rather facile. Hamas won the election in 2006 with almost half the popular vote despite its genocidal charter. Since then Hamas has enjoyed widespread support among Gazans, to the extent of recruiting an army of up to 40 000 militants, almost a fifth of the population. You will also recall the exultant cheers of the civilian population as the body of the German/Israeli girl, who had evidently been raped and tortured, was paraded on the back of a truck around the streets of Gaza after October 7. So no, with the exception of a few brave Palestinians who have tried to stand up to Hamas, it is not so easy to distinguish between Hamas and the civilian population. But even so  the IDF have tried to reduce casualties among non-combatants.There are several parallels between Hamas and the Nazis. The Nazis also came to power after winning almost half the popular vote in an election, they too had a programme to exterminate the Jews, they too wished to impose their will on the surrounding region and they too enjoyed considerable popular support until they started losing the war.I don't think there were many voices raised in protest in Britain  against the campaign to defeat the Nazis. No one, or hardly anyone, said it was wrong to inflict collective punishment on the German people because of the actions of Hitler and the Nazis. The Allies prosecuted the war until the Germans surrendered. But Hamas have not surrendered. They are still firing on Israeli soldiers, they are still holding the hostages, they are still stealing food, they are still administering punishment beatings to the few Palestinians who actively oppose them. Yet many people in this country are calling on Israelis to agree to a ceasefire which would leave the remnants of Hamas' army, still numbering perhaps 20 000, in control of parts of Gaza until the next pogrom. Why would the Israelis do this?I won't answer Gerry's abusive rant except to say that the accusations of genocide and torture are hysterical blood libels.

Steven Rose ● 38d

You don't seem to understand Israel's negotiation tactics.Israel has killed negotiators before."Reports indicate that Israel has killed negotiators or been accused of doing so, particularly in the context of assassinations of militant leaders who also participated in ceasefire discussions. There are also historical instances of Israel being linked to the killings of other mediators. Doha airstrike (September 2025): Israel conducted an airstrike in Doha, Qatar, targeting Hamas leaders, including chief negotiator Khalil al-Hayya, during a meeting to discuss a US-backed ceasefire proposal. Hamas reported that while senior leaders survived, the attack killed five of its members and a Qatari security officer. The strike was widely condemned for endangering ongoing negotiations.Assassination of Ismail Haniyeh (July 2024): Israel killed Hamas political leader Ismail Haniyeh in Tehran, Iran. As a senior figure, Haniyeh was the chief Palestinian negotiator in ceasefire talks. His death was seen as a major blow to diplomacy and drew international condemnation.Assassination of Ahmed Jabari (November 2012): Before launching Operation Pillar of Defense, Israel assassinated Ahmed Jabari, the deputy commander of Hamas's military wing. According to Palestine Nexus, Jabari was involved in ceasefire negotiations at the time, and Israel chose to assassinate him instead of accepting the offer. Famous historical instanceAssassination of Folke Bernadotte (1948): UN mediator Folke Bernadotte was assassinated in Jerusalem in 1948 by the Zionist paramilitary group Lehi (also known as the Stern Gang). He was on an official mission to resolve the Arab–Israeli conflict."

David Ainsworth ● 39d