Forum Topic

Wrong and 40,000 times wrong

Here we go again.A cabinet minister caught out and blaming advisors for her attempt to defraud the tax man of £40,000.Not the first time this minister has been investigated for dodgy dealings with home ownership.So alongside the Free ticketsFree suitsFree glasses Now three houses has been found out.Will she resign? Will she heck as likeWill she be sacked? Will she gack as likeQprfc Corrupt to the core the lot of them

Andy Pike ● 4d59 Comments

Mr Ainsworth'Promising to stop small boat crossings within two weeks of winning power does sound a bit of a Trumpian promise. Perhaps he will use gunboats and drones.'Well it should work.Yvette Cooper standing on the shore like Canute and pleading 'please go back' was not a great success !

John Hawkes ● 1d

Farage has quickly found her a place where she will shine:-"the party will establish a new Department of Preparing for Government.“I will in the next few weeks open up a new department within the party leading on the experience that Nadine [Dorries] and others have. And others will come. Others with experience will come. Don’t worry about that,” he said.The Reform leader brought forward his speech from 5pm to 1pm on Friday after Angela Rayner resigned from government. Farage said the government was “deep in crisis” after Rayner’s resignation over her tax affairs, and warned party activists to prepare for an election in 2027.“We have topped over 100 of the last opinion polls, our lead is between 10 and 15 per cent against any of the other parties and I tell you what, given the state that we’re in, I think we can increase that lead further yet.”In a speech that resembled Farage’s greatest hits, he promised to stop small boat crossings within two weeks of winning power, begin mass deportations, ban the Muslim Brotherhood and “scrap ridiculous harmful wasteful net-zero”.Dorries, former Tory MP and cabinet minister, announced she would defect from the Conservative Party to Reform late Thursday night. In between Farage’s address, Dorries made a short speech on the main conference stage, telling Reform members the upcoming election would be the most important in generations." Promising to stop small boat crossings within two weeks of winning power does sound a bit of a Trumpian promise. Perhaps he will use gunboats and drones.

David Ainsworth ● 1d

And she has resigned.

Robert Wheeler ● 2d

It seems clear that this would not have been referred if not for continuous pressure.It is also clear the matter could have been cleared up fairly quickly and the reason for the error exposed.Unfortunately no one is accusing her of doing anything she hasn't accused other people of doing. So she is going to get the same treatment.It is also clear that some supports are making excuses on various platforms.As a minister I think you do need to be extra careful in these matters.Worth following Dan Neidle who is pretty fair in his analysis.

Ed Robinson ● 2d

TTK and Gobby pontificating on tax evasion:https://www.instagram.com/reel/DOJNnD1CEgl/?igsh=NDd6cWtxc2hrcHI4

Sue Hammond ● 2d

Oh, I thought the illegal act you referred to was in relation to Angela. I must have got the wrong end of the stick.

Gerry Boyce ● 2d

Gerry, how can Kemi Badenoch be investigated under the ministerial code when she is not a minister?

Steven Rose ● 2d

Angela Rayner's lawyers insist they did NOT give her tax advice and say they are being 'scapegoated'The high-street conveyancing firm she used to buy a flat issued a devastating statement saying they had calculated the stamp duty based on the information she provided.It could prove a fatal blow to the deputy prime minister who had sought to lay the blame for her troubles on her advisers.In her tearful interview on Wednesday she said she had received incorrect advice over the amount of stamp duty to pay.But today the small family-run conveyancing firm which dealt with her property purchase, Verrico & Associates, based in Herne Bay, Kent, hit back.Managing director Joanna Verrico said: 'We acted for Ms Rayner when she purchased the flat in Hove. We did not and never have given tax or trust advice. It's something we always refer our clients to an accountant or tax expert.

Sue Hammond ● 2d

For all of us!!!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2d

‘  But does it really matter? There is no comparison between a disputed story and an illegal act.’Are you not aware, Stephen, that the investigation is to discover if she has broken the ministerial code? It’s not a criminal investigation.

Gerry Boyce ● 2d

"Have just learnt that he is being joined by Nadine Dorries....  Oh, that is really bad news!"For one of them? Or for both?

David Ainsworth ● 2d

Have just learnt that he is being joined by Nadine Dorries....  Oh, that is really bad news!

Ivonne Holliday ● 2d

Oh, and I forgot to mention the Derek Trotter of politics...

Ivonne Holliday ● 2d

"There is no comparison between a disputed story and an illegal act."Very true, Actions, not words.

David Ainsworth ● 2d

Hello Michael I and Jane,I totally agree with both of you.  I think we should wait for the result of the enquiry (which I hope is truly independent) to see how matters should proceed.  But it is true that Angela Rayner, as DPM and Minister for Housing, is in a difficult position and hiding behind the "it was the advice I received", regardless of her difficult circumstances, does not seem to hold water.But Kemi Badenoch, while trying to score political points, she should know better than reacting to mud in somebody else's "back yard" without considering the mud in her own.  The saying:  "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones" comes to mind.From my point of view, neither are suitable people for high office.  I find it difficult to find one politician that is.

Ivonne Holliday ● 2d

Attempts by embarrassed Labour supporters to deflect criticism from Angela Rayner seem to take two forms. One strategy is to elicit sympathy over her disabled child. However her child’s situation has nothing whatever to do with her decision to pay stamp duty at the wrong rate. For what it is worth, I don’t personally believe that she intended to engage in tax evasion. But the fact that the property  in her constituency was declared her primary residence for the purpose of council tax while her flat in Hove was declared her primary residence in respect of stamp duty suggests at the very least that she was engaged in tax avoidance. This is not a good look for a Housing Minister, especially in the light of her òwn criticism of Tory tax dodgers. The other strategy is to suggest that Kemi Badenoch is just as bad, demonstrated by her disputed claim to have received an offer from Stanford when she was 16.  Again, for what it is worth, I don’t believe that Kemi made up this story. Why would she do so? There is no conceivable political advantage in a claim to have received an offer from a university almost thirty years ago. In all probability there is some confusion. It is possible that she received a communication from the university (not necessarily from the Admissions Officer with a formal offer) suggesting that she might be given a place and a partial scholarship for a degree course, which might lead to a place at the medical school. Maybe Kemi, then a teenager, misunderstood what was being said. Maybe her memory is at fault now. don’t know. But does it really matter? There is no comparison between a disputed story and an illegal act.

Steven Rose ● 2d

You don't know if she tried to evade tax or knowingly avoid it; that will be reported on, irrespective whether you have made up your own mind about it.'someone who seems to already own a house in Manchester, to have the money splash out on buying a seaside second home in trendy Brighton..' Again, she says the Manchester home is in a trust for her child, all that stuff about a 'seaside second home' is catty and inaccurate.You say this story shows how well politicians are paid, well maybe, but this is my point exactly, why single her out.The stuff about using her child as an excuse, I think, is pretty poor on your behalf.I think you could probably level the charge of 'do as I say not as I do' against many politicians, and I agree, it is very irritating. Which is why Boris breaking lock down rules infuriated so many.

Gerry Boyce ● 3d

John, not everyone shares your binary, black and white, good and bad view of the world. The detail is often in the details. Don't confuse a knee-jerk panicked reaction with decisiveness; he'll make a decision when the fact are put in front of him.

Gerry Boyce ● 3d

Mr Wheeler'Richard you really need to stop assuming any criticism of the Government is only coming from The Mail.  Can l suggest you start getting your news from a full range of sources.'At least he is yet to find some obscure article in an Arab news media that proves this criticism is in fact generated by Netanyahu and the IDF !

John Hawkes ● 3d

Mr Boyce'this complex matter' is not complex at a political level and a firm and decisive political leader should not need an 'inquiry' to decide how to act on it.But then of course the leader is Starmer........

John Hawkes ● 3d

Mr Boyce'However, if this was a case of poor advice then it is a sightly different matter.'Does not give confidence that she has the ability to select the right advisors in her capacity as a Government Minister.

John Hawkes ● 3d

Mr Boyce“But as a parent of a disabled child, I know the thing my wife and I worry most about is our son’s care after we have gone, so I can completely understand and trust that the deputy Prime Minister was thinking about the same thing here'.Don't you think MPs using their children especially if they have some disability to gain sympathy and score political points somewhat sick-making ?

John Hawkes ● 3d

Mr Boyce'Am I correct in thinking that you believe her behaviour is uniquely deplorable, and no other politicians are behaving similarly?'I don't think I have used the word 'deplorable' to describe her behaviour.My view is that it is hypocritical behaviour coming from a Labour Deputy Prime Minister and Housing Minister to use all the doubtless legal tax avoidance measure to reduce the cost of her second home.Especially from an individual that in the past has declared that Britain is in 'the middle of the most acute housing crisis in living memory', while Sir Keir Starmer the Labour leader has warned that second homes 'can impact the availability and affordability' of local properties'.Also Housing Minister Matthew Pennycook has spoken in Parliament about the 'negative impacts of excessive concentrations of short-term lets and second homes', which affect 'local services' as well as 'the availability and affordability of homes for local residents to buy and rent'.The Admiralty Arch pad I see as a reasonable pied a terre for a senior politician close to the HoC.But for a Labour MP from a 'working class background',  someone who seems to already own a house in Manchester, to have the money splash out on buying a seaside second home in trendy Brighton looks like a bit of a slap in the face for many struggling to find and afford to pay for somewhere to live.And shows how well paid politicians are.Also, how many 'normal' people would consider putting the Manchester home in a Trust ?Yes, she has a disabled child as a trust beneficiary but using this as an excuse does not look good.Are 'other politicians are behaving similarly?'I don't know but is not Labour the Party of upright principles ?Wasn't Johnson hounded out for being seen in the number 10 garden during Covid lockdown eating cake ?And has not Rayner herself expressed extreme views on the Conservative Party ?According to The Independent 'Rayner made headlines when, speaking of Conservatives at Labour’s conference in September, she said: “We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute pile …of banana republic…Etonian…piece of scum.”Nice to think of the attention the Labour Deputy Prime Minister would give to the 70% of the population that did not vote for her Party.'Surely you agree that she has been attacked far more than many other politicians. Why do you think that is the case?'I do not agree she has.It is nothing to do with being northern, ill-educated, a woman or 'working class'.It's an objection to the old Labour credo - "Do as I say not do as I do".

John Hawkes ● 3d

As far as I can see every paper is leading on this including the Guardian.Just a point shouldn't the minister fir Housing understand basic housing rules lije stamp duty? In the same way the Chancellor shoukd be able to do sums. But at least she has managed some form of growth. The black hole is now double what it was when she took the job. That's impressive growth.

Andy Pike ● 3d

Nah Robert, Richard won't acknowledge those other papers because he doesn't want to stop using his old hackneyed 'Daily Fail' 🙄

Sue Hammond ● 3d

'If you are the Deputy prime minister who has spent the recent years campaigning on tax avoidance being a drain on  taX payers money you would surely make sure your own tax affairs were above reproach.' Absolutely right. However, if this was a case of poor advice then it is a sightly different matter. Nonetheless, I am sure it will be a wake-up call for her to ensure she gets the best advice available in the future.

Gerry Boyce ● 3d

I am sure she will furnish the investigator with all the relevant documents needed to establish the facts. In due course, hopefully sooner rather than later, the facts will be presented to the public, and harmony will be restored!It sounds as if this is all an unnecessary formality, as far as you are concerned Sue; Ginge is on a property binge. End of!

Gerry Boyce ● 3d

Good to see you have finally realised it is now not just a Labour/Tory issue but actually a Labour Party problem.Richard you really need to stop assuming any criticism of the Government is only coming from The Mail.  Can l suggest you start getting your news from a full range of sources.

Robert Wheeler ● 3d

Because you never did with the last govt

Andy Pike ● 3d

@Mr BoyceIf Ginge was given the wrong advice either by a solicitor or a tax advisor (unlikely) then she needs to publish it in order to stop the speculation.  If the 'wrong advice' allegation is proven then she needs to sue the relevant party for consequential loss - i.e. damage to her reputation.  However if negligence is proven and she ultimately has to step down the financial liability on the advisor would be enormous and her compo would probably be enough for her to purchase yet another property ...However I am sure none of this will happen because Ange knew exactly whe she was doing.

Sue Hammond ● 3d

Good advice, particularly for those who are quick to convict based on whatever tripe the Daily Fail serves up.

Richard Carter ● 3d

'.....she either knew the rules but choose to ignore them.'You forgot to finish that sentence Robert, usually an 'either' is followed by an 'or'.

Gerry Boyce ● 3d

Just as a side issue; my understanding is that Starmer could sack Angela as Minister for housing, but not as deputy leader of the Labour Party. Presumably, that means that she would remain as Deputy PM, which would be a tad awkward I imagine.

Gerry Boyce ● 3d

What happens next Sue, is that the investigation into this complex matter is concluded and a report will be issued to the PM. Based on this, he will then decide what he is going to do.I hope, that if there was any attempt to knowingly evade tax, then Rainer may well have to step down. If it was a genuine mistake, based on misleading advice, then I imagine that may be the end of it.Irrespective of what Robert unconvincingly says, party politics are swirling all around this, which is understandable.My point regarding Rainer's background, gender and capability, were more to do with general context about how the press target her; not really specific to this matter and definitely not an attempt to justify any wrongdoing that she may have done.

Gerry Boyce ● 3d

I think it is clear that #RaynerTheBlamer has failed to convince us, (with the notable exceptions of Messrs Boyce and Ixer), that her tax misdemeanours were the fault of her advisers.  Her position in government is now untenable and she must go.  So will she do the honourable thing and resign or will Starmer sack her?  She clearly isn't honourable and Starmer clearly doesn't have the balls to do it, so what happens next?

Sue Hammond ● 3d

Not many 'working class' folk can afford an £800k flat on Hove lawns.

Andy Pike ● 3d

Yes a week is too long when you have constantly portrayed yourself for the “working class”.  By the way this is not a Tory/Labour issue in my mind, she either knew the rules but choose to ignore them.  That’s fine but then don’t portray yourself as working class when to many in this country £40k is a lot of money eg pensioners, farmers etc.

Robert Wheeler ● 3d

The Rayner issue is being seen by a hostile Tory press and a largely sympathetic Labour membership as a class issue. It should not be. A competent professional has been deputed to investigate and make an independent judgment based upon the facts, some of which at present are by no means clear. We are told to expect an outcome in a week or so. In this media-frenzy era is a week or so too long to wait?

Alexander MacLeod ● 3d

I agree, Michael, but the problem is that the optics re this issue  look really bad, especially for a housing minister. She’d be better off going now, claiming that she doesn’t want to be the story and a major distraction for the government.However, Kemi Badenoch is in no position to preach. She has blatantly lied about having been offered a pre medical scholarship at Stanford University when the university has stated categorically that no such course exists and they made no such offer. She too, or the Tory party, should consider her position.

Jane Carter ● 3d

As i understand the trust was initially set up using the money from the NHS compensation award.She then used this trust to buy her share of the Ashton house ( conveniently valued at £650k  inheritance tax threshold??)basically she has used her sons compo to put a deposit down on the Hove property.Interestingly she still shows the Ashton house as her main residence in the interests of members declaration.Admittedly you don't have to own the property you show as your main residence but this must surely raise issues of council tax liability.If you are the Deputy prime minister who has spent the recent years campaigning on tax avoidance being a drain on  taX payers money you would surely make sure your own tax affairs were above reproach.Unless you thought you'd got away with it....just saying.

Andy Pike ● 3d

Interesting how all the disgusted of Tunbridge Wells have moved to Putney and seem to now be experts on stamp duty, trusts and no doubt cgt law.I understand the house in question was bought using a trust set up for her disabled son with his compensation money. I know from seeing the hagard face of one of my colleagues during a MiFID II implementation that trusts can be a complex legal nightmare. I could envisage there may be debates about whether an individual or trust might be acquiring the property and hence where the liability rested which could affect if that was the entitie's first or second property. Perhaps wait for the outcome of the enquiry which will no doubt look into all those complexities?

Michael Ixer ● 3d

Unsurprisingly Steven, I disagree with your assertion on why Rayner is constantly attacked. I think it has a lot to do with other factors. It may be the case that she has knowingly tried to evade tax, which would be a different matter. As things stand, and before the investigation is concluded and the report issued, I would agree with Ed Davey :“I understand it is normally the role of opposition leaders to jump up and down and call for resignations – as we’ve seen plenty of from the Conservatives already. “Obviously if the ethics advisor says Angela Rayner has broken the rules, her position may well become untenable.“But as a parent of a disabled child, I know the thing my wife and I worry most about is our son’s care after we have gone, so I can completely understand and trust that the deputy Prime Minister was thinking about the same thing here.“Perhaps now is a good time to talk about how we look after disabled people and how we can build a more caring country.”

Gerry Boyce ● 3d

Angela Rayner is not being attacked over this issue because she is (or was) working class or because she is a woman, but because she is a hypocrite. Back in 2017 she tweeted, '@jeremycorbyn correct to raise tax dodging issue, the public are furious with those who get away with tax avoidance'And in the same year she tweeted, 'HMRC staff cut as corporate/super rich tax dodgers not challenged, PM does not have the answers, tax avoidance damaging our country'.

Steven Rose ● 3d

I'm not sure you can still apply traditional labels like right wing etc.Probably as corrupt as many before them.As we have seen in Germany as well as the UK. You can get politics now that will say anything to get elected and once in they are very reluctant to leave.Although there are two new parties in addition to Reform, none of these are for me.

Ed Robinson ● 3d

Well, the British people did not want Labour to be socialist, and Starmer did not want to be one so no surprise that a cabinet minister turns Tory. I'd sack her for being completely naive. She surely lacks some basic political abilities. She obviously did not understand that the Tory majority media would still be out to get her. For them Labour is still the leftwing party and, as the country moves to the right, they will remain the main target.Shame, in a way. I've always liked red hair.

David Ainsworth ● 3d

I hear you Andy!

Gerry Boyce ● 3d

In a word she's a crook.A female crook or a working class crook. Not many working class have an 800k gaff in Hove by the way.The RTB issue was dubious , the old saying she did nothing technically wrong but it stank.On the council tax I think we are still waiting to hear what is her principal home and what is her 2nd home. She claims in the parliament records the Ashton property in her constituency  is her principal home, but to Hove council she claims that hove is her principal home.Also as  good Housing Minister perhaps she should give up her Admiralty Arch property for some of her beloved asylum(? Illegals) seekers

Andy Pike ● 3d

Dan Neidle is the person who's opinions on tax matters I trust be it houses or stables.I think if I'm not mistaken disclosing that she had a trust is vital for calculating the correct tax to pay.Of course if she should resign is not a tax matters. If she does resign will she come back 4 times as Mandleson did or 3 times as Priti Patel did!?!Worth reading all Dan's tweets not just the one I quitting here:"It's very unusual for someone to pay the wrong amount of stamp duty when they're receiving tax advice.There are probably three possibilities: (1) Ms Rayner got the law wrong(2) She didn't take the right advice(3) She didn't disclose all the facts to the law firm."

Ed Robinson ● 3d

I am confused John, you agree that she should be singled out, but you also say that she should be judged on her behaviour, just like everyone else.Am I correct in thinking that you believe her behaviour is uniquely deplorable, and no other politicians are behaving similarly? I guess my point is that she has admitted that her affairs are not in order and has given an explanation and has now said she will straighten matters out. Is that really so unacceptable and unique that she needs to resign?Surely you agree that she has been attacked far more than many other politicians. Why do you think that is the case?

Gerry Boyce ● 3d

Mr Boyce'Sure, I get that. My question is though, do you think she is unique, or that her abuse of the system is so outrageous and exceptional, that she deserves to be singled out the way that she has been?'Yes.She is a Minister of the Crown and Deputy Prime Minister.Enough of all this 'misogyny' and 'anti working class' guff.She has worked her way to the position she has just as in the past have even Old Etonians !Now she is judged on performance and behaviour and if she can't stand the heat should get out of the kitchen #.

John Hawkes ● 4d

I take your point about members of the public being treated one way and influential politicians being treated preferentially, and how unfair and irritating this is.My point is though, does this only apply to Angela or other Labour politicians, or should this apply to all politicians irrespective of which party they belong to.

Gerry Boyce ● 4d

So when you say three homes Andy, what do you mean? It sounds like you think she owns three properties, is that right? What about the RTB issue? what exactly are you hinting at? Ditto with the council tax matter, that you are so interested in, do you know something about it?

Gerry Boyce ● 4d

Mr BoyceI am not the right wing oress and nor am zi singling her out because she is a womanIt's because she is a crook who is now only paying it back because she got caught.She bought the property in May and has had 4 months to sort this out. She has been found out.It's not the first time she has "done nothing wrong" regarding her housing situation. Remember the RTB issue . Will be interesting to know what of her 3 hones she pays thd right council tax on

Andy Pike ● 4d

No she doesn’t deserve understanding because HMRC wouldn’t be as understanding with ordinary members of the public.  In any form of professional life you do not fiddle your books and then moan when you get caught out.Labour are trying to milk this working class female personality situation and it hasn’t washed with the general public.  I am sorry about her domestic situation but many in the same position would not do what she has tried to get away with.  If the latest polls are to believed Rayner, Starmer are Reeves are all finished.  Even your comment about her accepting gifts as “disappointing” is laughable for. Socialist party.

Robert Wheeler ● 4d

Sure, I get that. My question is though, do you think she is unique, or that her abuse of the system is so outrageous and exceptional, that she deserves to be singled out the way that she has been?

Gerry Boyce ● 4d

Last night we watched Football’s Financial Shame about the footballers who had been subject to fraud by their financial advisers.  It was a really good programme that left you feeling sorry for the footballers who lost pretty much everything and were being chased so ruthlessly by HMRC that some had been on the verge of suicide.  They had plausible explanations, but the taxman was merciless. I am not sure why anyone should feel sorry for Angela Rayner over this.  My husband and I are from working class backgrounds and have had moments of great stress in our lives, as have many people.  We pay our taxes and, no doubt, we will be asked for even more in the forthcoming budget.  She should have known better and had her financial affairs in order.

Martine Guy ● 4d

Angela Rainer has been relentlessly attacked by the right wing media because she is a woman, from a working class background, is left wing and competent.The fact that her tax affairs are not scrupulous and that she has accepted gifts of clothing etc. are naturally, a disappointment to many, including me.But is she really so unique in this? Why do you think she is being singled out for such venom and abuse?She seems to have given a plausible explanation of what happened and says she is now going to correct the situation. I think she deserves some understanding and support.

Gerry Boyce ● 4d

Mr Pike'A cabinet minister caught out and blaming advisors for her attempt to defraud the tax man of £40,000'.She blames this in the advice she was given by this first set of advisors.I wonder who they were ?One might have thought a Government Minister might have made a better choice !Then after the brouhaha she goes to another set who tell her she has to stump up !I suppose on a salary of £159,584 you can afford the fees these people cost.But of course in the end she is not paying but we are.And is it not unedifying that she uses her disabled son and his Trust as cover and the reason she has to take all these somewhat unusual measures. What it really comes down to is greed and putting more effort into her own affairs than into doing best for the people of this country.

John Hawkes ● 4d

Not sure where or how the ref to QPR crept into that post 🤔

Andy Pike ● 4d