Forum Topic

"Actually I said over 20 000 fighters killed. This implies more than 20 000 but less than 30 000, representing a ratio between 1 : 1 and 2 : 1"Computer says No.Does over 20,000 mean anything up to 30,000? Google AI:-No, "over 20,000" does not mean anything up to 30,000. The phrase "over 20,000" strictly refers to any number greater than 20,000, and it doesn't imply an upper limit. It could be 20,001, 25,000, 30,000, or even 20 million. This is a key distinction in mathematical and literal interpretations: Over 20,000: Any number x such that x > 20,000.Up to 30,000: Any number x such that x ≤ 30,000. The phrase "over 20,000" only establishes a lower boundary, not a range. To indicate a range between two numbers, you would need to be explicit, for example, "between 20,000 and 30,000." Still, it was a good try, I suppose.----------------------------------You write"As to the strikes on the homes of Hamas militants, I think that is probably true, though the Israelis also held back if too many civilian casualties were likely to result. But the responsibility for those civilian deaths lies mainly with the cowardly Hamas terrorists who used their own families as shields.""On Human Shields"Neve GordonLondon Review of Books, 1/12/23"In the early 1990s I worked at Physicians for Human Rights – Israel. Not long after the Oslo Accords were signed we moved from offices on Gordon Street in Tel Aviv to larger premises on Allenby Street, not far from the Great Synagogue. Walking home from work one day, I noticed a small plaque near the synagogue’s entrance. Written in Hebrew and English, it says: ‘The Lehi used the basement and attic of this synagogue as a secret arms cache. It was discovered by the British during the “great curfew” imposed in July 1946, and the weapons were confiscated.’Lehi was a Zionist paramilitary organisation that operated primarily against the British forces in Mandatory Palestine, but it was also among the groups that carried out the 1948 Deir Yassin massacre, killing at least 107 Palestinians. Four years earlier, the group had assassinated Walter Guinness, also known as Lord Moyne, the British minister resident in the Middle East. Later terrorist attacks included the assassination in 1948 of the Swedish diplomat Folke Bernadotte, the United Nations mediator between Israel and Arab countries.The first provisional government of Israel declared Lehi a terrorist organisation and arrested more than two hundred members, but offered them a general amnesty before the first elections in January 1949. Thirty years later, Israel introduced the Lehi ribbon, honoring the militant group’s ‘activity in the struggle for the establishment of Israel’ and in 1983 a former leader of the organisation, Yitzhak Shamir, became prime minister. It was around this time that the plaque was placed in front of the Great Synagogue commemorating its role in the Zionist struggle for liberation – namely, hiding arms deployed in Lehi’s terrorist attacks.A few kilometres from the Great Synagogue, in Ramat Gan, the first elementary school in the city was used for similar purposes. Its plaque says that the place was used by the Etzel during the 1930s and 1940s for weapons training and as a secret arms cache.Etzel, a Hebrew acronym for Irgun Zvai Leumi (the National Military Organisation), is the group that bombed the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946, killing 91 people and injuring scores of others. Led at one stage by Menachem Begin, the paramilitary group also participated in the Deir Yassin massacre and several other terrorist attacks before morphing into the ‘Freedom Party’ (Tnuat Herut). A letter to the New York Times in December 1948, signed by Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein and others, described the party as ‘closely akin in its organisation, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties’. In 1977, it became the major partner of the newly formed Likud, which has been ruling Israel on and off ever since.Synagogues and schools were not the only places Zionist paramilitary groups used to hide fighters and equipment. The Magen David Adom (Red Star of David) station in Netanya has a plaque which says that ‘the medical centre was used to cover and camouflage the operations of Haganah’s command centre in Netanya – the military arm of the state to come.’ This plaque also suggests that the pre-state use of civilian sites as a cover for military purposes is something that Israelis today should be proud of.The use of civilian sites by paramilitary groups was in no way unique to Mandatory Palestine. When the Prussians occupied France in 1870, the French francs-tireurs or free shooters were ‘farmers by day and fighters by night’. From the American Revolution and the Italian Risorgimento to anti-colonial struggles in Malaya, India, Sri Lanka and Vietnam as well as Algeria, Angola and Palestine, militants have hidden among civilians in what we now call people’s wars. Given the asymmetry of power between non-state paramilitary groups and national armies, the ability to blend into the civilian population was necessary for military survival. Today, hi-tech state militaries deploy new surveillance technologies and enhanced weapon systems to find and kill militants much more easily, driving paramilitary groups across the globe to move into densely populated urban settings where they can conceal themselves more easily. Hamas, in this sense, is no outlier.It has consequently been accused by Daniel Hagari, an Israeli military spokesperson, of using human shields. ‘Our war,’ Hagari said, ‘is against Hamas, not against the people in Gaza. Especially not the sick, the women, or the children. Our war is against Hamas who uses them as human shields.’Hagari was referring not to the remaining Israeli hostages held by Hamas in secret locations across the Gaza Strip, but to the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian civilians who were unwilling or unable to flee when Israel instructed them to. Many of them have been taking refuge in hospitals, schools and mosques. They are cast as shields because Hamas has built what are believed to be hundreds of kilometres of underground tunnels beneath Gaza and the people above are in the way of Israel’s ability to destroy the tunnels. An IDF spokesperson said last week that ‘Hamas has been systematically using hospitals in Gaza to run its terror machine. Hamas built tunnels underneath hospitals ... using the protected status of hospitals as a shield.’Hagari’s claim that Hamas uses human shields should be understood as a pre-emptive legal defence against accusations that Israel is committing war crimes and crimes against humanity in Gaza. The Geneva Conventions prohibit the use of human shields: ‘The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations.’ In other words, it’s legal to bomb a site protected by human shields (provided legal principles, such as proportionality, are followed). The subtext of Hagari’s accusation, then, is that Hamas is to blame when Israel kills civilians or destroys hospitals because Hamas has used them to ‘shield’ its tunnels.In recent years the ‘human shield’ accusation has been adopted by several state militaries trying to justify the killing of civilians in Mosul in Iraq, Raqqa in Syria and elsewhere. This justification, however, functions only in one direction. When state actors kill civilians, it’s become standard to describe them as human shields. But when non-state actors attack military targets in urban settings, the civilians they kill are still recognised as civilians.When Islamic State captured Mosul in 2014, for example, there were no human shields in the city, but two years later, when the American-led coalition was preparing to retake it, headlines across the world warned readers that the jihadist militants were using 100,000 civilians as human shields. Israeli citizens living next to the military command headquarters in central Tel Aviv have never been cast as human shields, even though Hamas has targeted it. This is not to condone the brutality of IS or Hamas, who have frequently targeted civilians, but to show how state militaries exculpate themselves from the killing of civilians.Besides the Great Synagogue in Tel Aviv, the primary school in Ramat Gan and the medical facility in Netanya, there are more than fifty other buildings in Israeli cities that have plaques commemorating how they were used to hide combatants and weapons before 1948. The British armed forces sent infantry troops to raid civilian sites that they suspected of being put to military use. In the Gaza Strip, the Israeli armed forces have sent in ground troops only after bombing.Thirty thousand tons of bombs have so far been dropped on Gaza, and more than two hundred mosques, two hundred schools and over forty hospitals and other medical facilities have been damaged or destroyed. More than five thousand children and around ten thousand adults have been killed. Most of them were civilians. The attempt by the Israeli authorities to justify their carpet bombing and blame Palestinians for bringing disaster on themselves through the use of ‘human shields’ is not only political sophistry, but forgetful of Israel’s own history."

David Ainsworth ● 6d

"Is it even plausible that the IDF, one of the most effective armies in the world, could have repeatedly missed their targets over almost two years of conflict, overwhelmingly hitting civilians while allowing fighters to get away unscathed?"They did not miss their targets. The IDF were targeting known Hamas where they were known to live. And they lived with family or among neighbours. The IDF were willing to kill a certain number of civilians "accidentally", as when they targeted tented camps to get some Hamas figures."‘Lavender’: The AI machine directing Israel’s bombing spree in GazaThe Israeli army has marked tens of thousands of Gazans as suspects for assassination, using an AI targeting system with little human oversight and a permissive policy for casualties""During the early stages of the war, the army gave sweeping approval for officers to adopt Lavender’s kill lists, with no requirement to thoroughly check why the machine made those choices or to examine the raw intelligence data on which they were based. One source stated that human personnel often served only as a “rubber stamp” for the machine’s decisions, adding that, normally, they would personally devote only about “20 seconds” to each target before authorizing a bombing — just to make sure the Lavender-marked target is male. This was despite knowing that the system makes what are regarded as “errors” in approximately 10 percent of cases, and is known to occasionally mark individuals who have merely a loose connection to militant groups, or no connection at all.Moreover, the Israeli army systematically attacked the targeted individuals while they were in their homes — usually at night while their whole families were present — rather than during the course of military activity. According to the sources, this was because, from what they regarded as an intelligence standpoint, it was easier to locate the individuals in their private houses. Additional automated systems, including one called “Where’s Daddy?” also revealed here for the first time, were used specifically to track the targeted individuals and carry out bombings when they had entered their family’s residences.The result, as the sources testified, is that thousands of Palestinians — most of them women and children or people who were not involved in the fighting — were wiped out by Israeli airstrikes, especially during the first weeks of the war, because of the AI program’s decisions.“We were not interested in killing [Hamas] operatives only when they were in a military building or engaged in a military activity,” A., an intelligence officer, told +972 and Local Call. “On the contrary, the IDF bombed them in homes without hesitation, as a first option. It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home. The system is built to look for them in these situations.”"https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/"It is likely hat the Israelis have killed over 20 000 Hamas and other fighters, a ratio of civilians killed to fighters killed near to 1 : 1. This still represents a tragic loss of civilian life, but the ratio is far better than in comparable counter insurgencies, not much worse, as claimed by the 'Guardian'."Well, no. "Spiked", as usual is being selective in their quotes. As the total of deaths is over 60,000, it would be a kill ratio of 2 to 1. And as "The Gaza ministry of health lists only people whose bodies have been recovered, not the thousands buried under rubble," then the real Gaza civilian death totals are likely to be higher. So the kill ratio may be more like 3 to 1. And "Spiked" does not mention any proportions for women, children or elderly, in their calculations. I suppose that they just consider that many of them could be "terrorists".The Guardian article is more measured than "Spiked"'s attempted hatchet job:-https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/aug/21/revealed-israeli-militarys-own-data-indicates-civilian-death-rate-of-83-in-gaza-warStill, if this is what fits your case, carry on trusting "Spiked" and "The Spectator". Their rage must prove that they are right.

David Ainsworth ● 6d

Those who are biased against Israel eagerly cling to any story which appears to justify their prejudice. The 'Guardian' story claiming that the IDF have only managed to eliminate 8900 Hamas and other fighters, implying that 83% of the Palestinians killed were innocent civilians, is a good example. The figure of 83% is based on the assumption that that the 8900 fighters whom the IDF were able to identify by name represent the total number of fighters killed. This assumption, as the article from 'Spiked' points out, is unjustified. Even the authors of the report acknowledge that the true number of militants killed is likely to be higher, including operatives who could not be identified and Gazans who took part in the fighting but were not official members of Hamas or Islamic Jihad. In other words the figure of 83%, trumpeted by those who wish to convict Israel of wanton slaughter, if not genocide, is false. Is it even plausible that the IDF, one of the most effective armies in the world, could have repeatedly missed their targets over almost two years of conflict, overwhelmingly hitting civilians while allowing fighters to get away unscathed? If this were true, would not Israeli commanders change tactics rather than let their enemy escape?It is likely hat the Israelis have killed over 20 000 Hamas and other fighters, a ratio of civilians killed to fighters killed near to 1 : 1. This still represents a tragic loss of civilian life, but the ratio is far better than in comparable counter insurgencies, not much worse, as claimed by the 'Guardian'. It also means that there are still several thousand fighters left intact, hiding in the tunnels with their hostages, waiting for the day when they can emerge to carry out another massacre like October 7, as they have promised to do.

Steven Rose ● 6d

My BoyceI have read most of Orwell's essays specifically those in the Penguin paperback and most of his novels.The latter painted a patriotic and clearly defined view of  the attributes British life which I am sure he would have been sad to see diluted by multiculturism. He claimed -"In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. They take their cookery from Paris (*** Now the EU) and their opinions from Moscow. (***Now of course these opinions are derived from Islamism***) In the general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during 'God Save the King' than of stealing from a poor box."He would have easily spotted the Jew haters (HAMAS) masquerading as defenders of 'Palestinian liberation' as exemplifiers of 'doublespeak', taken from '1984', which they undoubtedly are.'The quote described what the animals witnessed at the end of their revolution, their leaders 'the pigs' were indistinguishable from the humans that they had overthrown' is apposite.Not quite sure in the Palestine/Israel conflict who you think are the revolutionaries and who are the humans.Perhaps you could help me here.

John Hawkes ● 7d

Interesting to read how Hamas terrorists use hospitals and patients as cover and also gain sympathy from western faux progressives when some are unfortunately and inadvertently killed by the IDF.https://www.spiked-online.com/2025/08/27/when-hospitals-become-battlefields/'When hospitals become battlefields.The Nasser Hospital strike in Gaza was a tragedy, not a ‘war crime’.Clever if callous tactics which this article makes very clear and might even give the antisemites on this Forum food for thought.Suggest people read the complete article, but here is an extract from it."The first point that needs making is that the Nasser Hospital has not been a neutral space during the war in Gaza. In fact, it has repeatedly been abused by Palestinian militant groups. In February 2024, the IDF arrested more than 100 militants inside the hospital, some of whom were directly involved in the 7 October 2023 massacre. Weeks earlier, freed Israeli hostage Sharon Aloni Cunio told CNN that hostages had been held in the hospital. In April, the hospital’s own director of nursing, Mohammed Saqer, revealed in a since-deleted social-media post that Palestinian Islamic Jihad had threatened him after he reopened wards to the sick and wounded.It is common knowledge that Hamas uses hospitals and schools as military bases, which is why Israel has had no option but to strike them at times. Mohammed Sinwar – who became the de facto leader of Hamas after the death of his brother, Yahya – was killed by the IDF at Gaza’s European Hospital in May. Nor was Monday the first time Israel has targeted the Nasser Hospital. In May, a strike on the complex killed notorious 7 October live-streamer Hassan Aslih, along with Ahmad al-Qidra, a senior Hamas militant'.

John Hawkes ● 7d