Forum Topic

VJ Day and how our split society came about.

"How the second world war shaped the sons of its soldiers" The Spectator.https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-the-second-world-war-shaped-the-sons-of-its-soldiers/I am at 80, probably one of the oldest posters on this Forum.And many would say I am sure, one of the most reactionary.But then I was born, brought up and formed in different times and under different circumstances.And every thing in this article rings a loud bell for me.I was 'shaped' as described above.My father fought for four years against the Japanese in Malaysia.And for years after his uniform truly did hang at the back of his wardrobe.(Well the jacket did but not the trousers leading to my bad dreams as a child as to what he would wear if called up again !)And we did play 'England vs Germany' war games in the street and were proud that we were victorious in reality.The nett of this might well be that I was inculcated with patriotism and love of country.And looked back at pride on what he and his comrades did to defend us from fascist tyranny in Europe and the Far East.A country that was homogeneous in race and culture and belief and proud of its history.Now it is 'multi-racial 'and 'multi cultural'.Is this for the better ?Divided between those that for generations have sided with its history and culture and those, often newcomers born elsewhere, that criticise it.And of course our education system which often derides and downplays our beliefs, culture and achievements so that younger generations, if they know anything at all of our recent past, are often taught to mock it and find it ridiculous. Is that for the good ?A petty example. Birmingham Council (the one that never collects household waste because of strikes by bin men) tries to stop the flying of Union Jack Flags but allows Palestinian flags to fly in Muslim areas."Fury as Labour-run council tears down 'dangerous' St George's and Union Jack flags from city streets (but Palestine flags are allowed in 'Muslim areas'.)" https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15003113/Fury-Labour-run-council-tears-dangerous-St-Georges-Union-Jack-flags.htmlFor those that can be bothered to read it, this Spectator article above explains some of this.

John Hawkes ● 4d48 Comments

Mr Hawkes. I'm just trying to point out that it's not sensible to think of everything in a binary, inflexible way. I know first and second generation immigrants from the Carribean and Indian Sub Continent who I'd consider very well integrated with British culture (some by marriage) while I know Irish and Scots who would perhaps want to be considered as integrated with European rather than British cultures ... yes, nothing wrong with a range of friends and acquaintances that incudes people from or with backgrounds of Irish, Scots, Welsh, other European countries, Asian, African and the Americas :-) Looking at NASA and other science institututions budget cuts there looks like being an influx of US immigrants to the EU and UK. Of course, they would be legal rather than illegal immigrants, although some might consider them refugees!Nitpicking? Nor really, just showing flaws in your logic.Flags? I've never had any urge to fly a flag. Most people don't seem to object to flying Ukrainian's flag, except the Reform party - who also seemed to object to the Pride flag; that seems pretty innocuous to me. There seems to be an assumption that those flying the Palestinian flag are supporting Hamas and Islamists, but could they be supporting Palestinians on the West Bank who are being threatened and driven off their lands by Israeli settlers? One, perhaps, can't be sure? (I believe that also includes Palestinian Christians. ) And I've seen a couple of flags of the Galatasaray Spor 1905, a Turkish football team displayed in Putney - lice and let live, eh?(Actually, correction, when I was holidaying on the Norfolk Broads with friends in the early 70s we did fly the Jolly Roger for fun and nobody seemed to take exception to it ...)Perhaps the lack of integration by immigrants was a result of the racism they encountered, particularly in the 60s, 70s, even 80s - particularly by some football supporters; oh, and I see it still exists now: https://news.sky.com/story/antoine-semenyo-man-suspected-of-racially-abusing-premier-league-star-is-released-on-bail-13414002I guess if people are comparing one to dogs, being rude to you, using derogatory terms about your race, telling one to go home it, etc it doesn't entice you to integrate and become patriotic about your new country? Just sayin'

Michael Ixer ● 3h

Mr Rose'I agree with your conclusion up to a point.  The enemy is any country which threatens Britain or British interests. These countries are never moderate democracies but some of them are regimes whose failings  Britain previously had overlooked.'I am afraid that many Forum posters are either naïve when it comes to the messiness of foreign policy or would never concede Britain 'deserves to have interests'.They would not consider Britain putting its own interests first because, as George Orwell wrote - “In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. 
They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. (now Palestine). In the 
general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident 
thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals 
are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse 
racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably 
true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of 
standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a 
poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping 
away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian (now pro-Palestine), but always anti-British.”They may have missed the nuance of Dr Johnson's quote - ‘Patriotism is the Last Refuge of the Scoundrel’ - but they would never choose to give their own country and its indigenous people any credit for having done any good for mankind in general.British (and American) patriotism in its purest sense is an anathema to them whilst that of Palestine and the countries of the EU is to be lauded.That is why so many posters on this Forum are so boringly negative and lacking in nuanced argument regarding world politics.An outcome of lack of decent education and the politics of 'multi culturalism'.

John Hawkes ● 1d

You have a point, Ed, but I think it is a bit overstated. The Soviet Union turned from from friend to enemy as soon as the war ended, but that is not evidence of an absurd game of shifting alliances, as you seem to suggest. Roosevelt and Churchill were perfectly well aware that Stalin was a brutal tyrant, but the Allies needed the Soviet Union to defeat Nazi Germany  who represented the greater immediate threat at the time. They probably did not realise that Stalin would create an iron curtain around Eastern Europe after the war and point rickers at Washington and London.In the same way the West helped the Taliban to repel the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan but did not realise that once they achieved power they would destroy Bhuddist monuments and repress women.Your account of the British Mandate in Palestine is somewhat misleading. It is not accurate to say that the Israelis were first regarded as terrorists and then became allies. The British did not regard the whole Jewish population as terrorists, only violent groups like the Stern Gang and the Irgun. Once the State of Israel was eclared, the British supported the Israeli government who also proscribed the violent groups. It was decades later that the leader of the Irgun, Menachem Begin, won the election and became Prime Minister.As regards the Russian oligarchs,  the Ryssia of 2000 was very different from the Russia of today. Regarding Trump, he has always been despised by the progressive Left, sometimes unfairly, but only a few idiots regard America as our worst enemy.Yes, Ukraine was corrupt, like every other republic in the former Soviet Union. But Zelensky has taken steps to reduce corruption, firing generals, for example, who were misappropriating finds.To answer your question, the enemy fall into two two categories: those who commit crimes against their own people and those who threaten Britain. The second category unfortunately takes precedence over the first. Sometimes the enemy falls into both categories at once, like Russia, and then the problem is simpler to identify. But on other occasions Britain has to  tolerate an unpleasant regime, like Syria, in order to stave off worse threats.

Steven Rose ● 2d

Mr Hawkes. Thanks for posting the full article. Perhaps not everyone's experiences are the same, or perceived to be the same? My late father was an orphan brought up in a local authority home. I believe he felt it was his duty to fight the facists (he and a friend had joined the Territorial Army before war broke out over their fears of rising facism in Europe, although I'd note my father was never a supporter of Labour or socialism). I believe he had a cynical view of war (it might be necessary to quell tyrany but there was no glory in it), patriotism and authority because of his disadvantaged upbringing. Similarly, his agnostic views stemmed from the ridiculousness of both sides praying to the same god to kill and defeat the other side in war.The initial months of the war were quite illuminating for him: sailing around the Cape, visiting Cape Town and seeingTable Mountain, then stopping off in Egypt. As a motocycle despatch rider, he was able to go off and visit the pyramids; no queues in those days, but apparently local custodians weren't happy - but who'd argue with the British Army!He saw action after being transferred to Crete; another opportunity to explore a new land on his motorcycle when not passing messages between the British and Anzac forces. I think after the initial German parachute drop, inadvertently into rather than near the British forces, he had some sympathy for the German paratroopers, many were younger than him and been told the British would shoot them rather than take prisoners. (My father for some reason had been taught German in school - in spite of being brought up in a home he had a reasonably good education - so could communicate with them.) My father liked Crete so much that he went back with my mother and me when he retired in the mid '70s, although it had changed significantly from his memories. although we did chat over some glasses of Mavrodaphni wine which seemed to conform to his memories from, I assume, his unofficial excursions ... I do admire him riding a motorbike on what must have been mainly donkey and cart tracks in those days!When Crete later fell to the Germans he spent the remainder of the war in a Germany POW work camp (strictly against the Geneva convention) in Silesia (now part of Poland), so didn't see much action after that. Although, he apparently had an interesting journey in a cattle truck, through the Balkans via (I believe) Dresden to the work camp. He had an "interesting" learning experience in the Balkans calling a Croat a Serb, to their annoyance, but fortunately as a POW was under the protection of the German army!Interestingly, my father never hated Germans. That's possibly because he was in a work camp which, although guarded by German soldiers, was run by local Germans - I think an elderly man who owned the open cast mine, his daughter, and some others who would not have been called up for military service. My father could obviously understand what the locals were saying and got the impression they weren't anymore impressed with the deprivations of the war than he was.I think being able to communicate with the enemy in their own language may have been an advantage for him. At times he was apprently called on to act as a translator and on one occasion was complimented on his language skills by a German officer as his Greman was "more correct" than the local version wherever he was at that time.When he had to make his way westward after the German guards fled in the wake of the Russian advance, he did see some of the devastation in eastern Germany and that made him feel uncomfortable with the bombing of Dresden (which he described had been a beautiful city) and the killing of so many civilians at that late stage of the war - even though it may have hastened his release.As I say, he didn't seem to have any grudges against Germans and when a German family moved into the next road to us during the 1960s he went round for a chat; I think partly to practice his German and also he was intrigued to find out why the family had moved to Essex where we lived at that time. (I think the man was carrying out agriculture work as I seem to recall a tractor parked in the family's driveway. )However, my late mother hated Germans for decades as her only experience of them was faceless Luftwaffe pilots dropping bombs and random V-weapons falling on London killing some of her friends. However, even she realised times change and when the German husband of a friend died of a heart attack around 25 years ago she was very upset. (He was of a similar age to me and helped my mother with some small jobs when I couldn't get to Essex because of my work.) In fact, although in her younger days my mother appeared a little xenophobic she seemed to overcome that; she was quite welcoming to some of the more recent Polish immigrants wnen others were being rude to them. When she was younger, my mother worked as a secretary for the Church Army. Although sho had time for the missionaries she dealt with who she considered practiced Christianity, it instilled a dislike of organised religion in her. She had to facilitate and take minutes that senior CofE clergy (eg Bishops) attended and felt they were arrogant and self important. Although she was a Christian she was never a regular church goer.Perhaps in both my father's and mother's experience it was a case of meeting people to understand they're not radically different to oneself?As a corollary to the VJ aspect in the subject line, an uncle of mine was called up later in the war and sent to the far east. He was lined up to go and fight in Japan but never saw action as Japan surrendered. I suppose he and his young wife who he'd married just before departing to the east may have been thankful the atomic bombs were dropped. However, my uncle did make it to Japan and Hiroshima (after a specialist US group had done an initial clean up). My uncle never spoke to me about this but my cousin has a picture of him with a couple of army comrades taken in what's obviously Hiroshima. My cousin thinks his father was affected by seeing the devastation of a civilian city that saved him from action and a high possibility of death. My own father - after narrowly escaping being straffed by a Russian fighter plane (shooting anything that moved?), then meeting up with US forces and repatriation from Germany - was put into a fitness training course with a view to being sent out to the far east, but the war ended before army had been able to compensate for his survival rations as a Germany POW.Probably because of my parents negative views of authority (whether army, church, politicians, etc) I've never had a strong feeling of patriotism although I feel fortunate to be a UK citizen, and I'm proud to be a Londoner and think it's good other people want to visit or live here; there must be something good about it!I suppose my own formative years were late 60s, early 70s during the anti Vietnam war times, flower power - unfortunately, I didn't get to San Francisco until the early 80s - and the so called permissivesociety with the All You Need Is Love, Wishing Well, Imagine, Politician, Ohio, Eve of Destruction, A Walk on the Wild Side, Rebel Rebel, etc music era, so I'm not really enamoured with the British establishment of the Victorian era :-) Perhaps in the hippy age patriotism rather than ideals - which might include fighting antisemetic facists - seemed more important than patriotism for many post war baby boomers as Germans and Japanese were now our friends while our former Russian and Chinese friends were now our enemies? Perhaps the current difficulties with multiculturalism were caused by the racism of the 60s and 70s that created a barrier between cultures and slowed or inhibited integration? There are certainly some benefits: middle eastern and Buddhist Indian, Chinese and other far eastern foods have great veggie and vegan options, and hasn't Carribean, African and Indian music influenced and enhanced our popular culture as well?Anyway, my original point was, it's happened for good or bad! We have to live with it :-)(I was also born less than ten years after the war ended. As far as I know my father had discarded his uniform well before I was born and wanted to also leave the children's home and prison camp of earlier times, and move on to a happier time of working with motor cars as a mechanic, owning and maintaining a home, and having a family life with my mother and me.)

Michael Ixer ● 3d

"British troops chopping people heads off!"Sad but vital to maintain our standard of living apparently.So they are "terrorists", of course.From "Declassifieduk":-"British officials were also keen to avoid any words which might suggest a popular uprising, and always played down the political roots of the rebellion. “On no account should the term ‘insurgent’, which might suggest a genuine popular uprising, be used”, Colonial Office official JD Higham stated.In 1952 a defence ministry memorandum stipulated that, from now on, the insurgents – previously usually referred to as “bandits” – would be officially known as “communist terrorists” or CTs."----------------------------However, in WW2:-"The MPAJA was the main anti-Japanese resistance force in Malaya during World War II. It was partly a re-formation of earlier communist groups and received support and training from the British. The British, initially wary of the communist influence, recognized the need for resistance against the Japanese and secretly allied with the MPAJA. The MPAJA, along with other smaller resistance groups and the British, formed a combined effort to fight the Japanese. After the war, the MPAJA was officially disbanded, but some members secretly kept weapons and later formed the Malayan National Liberation Army, which fought against the British return to power in the Malayan Emergency." (Google)------------------------Worth a look:-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Malayan_headhunting_scandal

David Ainsworth ● 4d

"The 80th anniversary of VJ Day today marks the passing of the generation that took part in the second world war. The few surviving veterans must now be a hundred years old, or virtually so. They are departing; most have already left. This seems an appropriate moment to reflect upon the next generation, those whose fathers fought in the war and who grew up in its shadow.Much has been written about the luck of the ‘baby boomers’, those born in the two decades after the war, who benefitted from post-war prosperity, buying houses cheaply and seeing their values soar. Later generations have envied their affluence. But less has been written about their mindset, which was so much shaped by the recent past. One might argue that as children, boomers were inculcated with one set of values, which as adults they were then pressured to renounce.What were the qualities we were taught to admire? Courage – obviously, duty, obedienceI am thinking especially of the boys, though of course women played a significant role in the war effort, and what they experienced must have influenced their daughters too. But for boys the war was formative; for better or worse, it sculpted their sense of what it meant to be a man.I am one of those myself, born less than ten years after the fighting finished. I grew up in a capital in which the effects of bombing were still visible in the occasional bomb sites which made exciting though generally forbidden places to play. For us, ‘the war’ meant the second world war, without need for further identification. War stories were ubiquitous, on the screen and in print; James Bond had served in the war, as had George Smiley. In the boys’ comics of my childhood, gallant British Tommies invariably overcame superior numbers of Germans, who were portrayed as mindless automatons and referred to contemptuously as ‘Krauts’ or ‘Jerries’. (This was at a time when the United Kingdom was seeking German help to join the European Economic Community.) We boys played a game called ‘commandoes’, loosely based on war stories we had imbibed.Our fathers had lived through the war. Many of them had served in the forces; their uniforms could be found hanging at the back of wardrobe. So had most of the schoolmasters who taught us. I remember one who had several fingers missing from one hand, and another whose face was terrifyingly scarred by burns. In my teens I once played squash against the father of a girlfriend, a fighter pilot with a ‘gammy leg’ as a result of injuries sustained when his plane had come down (he trounced me nonetheless). I am named after an uncle who had been rushed through training as a pilot and was killed in a plane crash on his 19th birthday.All the men we looked up to had been affected by the war, or so it seemed. Even those who had not been in combat had been damaged. The father of a schoolfriend of mine had been in the camps and was still so traumatised that the sight of anyone in uniform, even a humble traffic warden, could cause him to panic.It is a commonplace that sons model themselves on their fathers. For boys of my generation, their fathers’ war records could be a source of pride or shame. I was immensely proud of my father’s service as a naval officer and remain so, even since I discovered that some of what I had been led to believe was not wholly true. (His uniform still hangs at the back of my wardrobe.) I remember the state funeral of Sir Winston Churchill in 1965, a solemn occasion in which (so it seemed) the whole nation was in mourning. We accepted the myth that Churchill had promulgated: that the period after the fall of France, when Britain had stood alone against the Axis powers, had been our finest hour and that the eventual defeat of Nazi Germany made all the sacrifices worthwhile.What were the qualities we were taught to admire? Courage – obviously, duty, obedience, self-denial, reticence, restraint. These were the qualities that had won the war, or at least these were the qualities that had enabled our fathers to survive it. This is what being a man meant, then. They are not values that resonate today. Rather than keeping a stiff upper lip, we are encouraged to show our emotions; rather than keeping it in, we are supposed to let it all out. Like most of us today, I share these modern, peacetime values; yet I retain a respect for the men of my father’s generation. Without them, our lives would have been very different.‘I’m no good at being noble,’ Rick tells Ilsa in Casablanca (1942), ‘but it doesn’t take much to see that the problems of three little people don’t amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world.’ Rick, played by Humphrey Bogart, renounces his love for Ilsa, played by Ingrid Bergman, so that she can be with her husband, a resistance leader. He sacrifices personal happiness for the greater good. In The English Patient (1996), the moral is the opposite: the protagonist Almasy, played by Ralph Fiennes, is willing to surrender secret maps to his German captors if they will help him to find his beloved. The contrasting messages of these two films show how far we have come".

John Hawkes ● 4d

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