Forum Topic

"The Art of the Deal" by Kier Starmer

"Starmer says UK will recognize Palestinian state unless Israel agrees to a Gaza ceasefire"I take this to mean that if Israel refuses to stop defending itself against attacks by the UK proscribed terrorist organisation Hamas (which still holds Israeli women, children and the elderly as hostages) then the UK Labour Government will recognise the state of Palestine which is a territory ruled partly by Hamas, Gaza and partly by the Palestinian Authority, the West Bank.Organisations neither elected and which hate each others guts.Does this position sound to anyone as being a diplomatic triumph and to have any logic to it ?Denying support to an ally under potential existential threat ?Or am I missing something ?Just because the weaselly French with a long history of appeasement are taking this position does not mean we should.We of course know it is to appease the anti-Israel pro-Palestinian faction in the Labour Party that is dependent upon the UK Muslim vote.And anyway, by the time I have finished posting this Starmer could well have changed his mind and said he was misquoted."Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others".Groucho Marx

John Hawkes ● 10d35 Comments

Mr Rose'By April 1945 Germany no longer represented a strategic threat to the Allies. But the Allies did not cease hostilities until the Nazis surrendered and laid down their weapons. Israel cannot afford to call a ceasefire which leaves Hamas in control of parts of Gaza, still holding their hostages.'Absolutely right.Too many on this Forum refuse to see the similarity between the German Nazi Party and the Palestinian terror group Hamas.Particularly their common desire to murder Jews.One wonders how many of them would have been supportive of our war against Germany after factoring in 'the Jewish question' ?

John Hawkes ● 7d

Mr Boyce'As a matter of interest John, what dog would you say that you have in this fight?'This conflict is one between two foreign national entities that does not directly affect me or the citizens of the UK.And neither is my proxy.Hence 'I do not have a dog in this fight'.But I do have a strong interest in which dog I would want to win.The fact is that like us, Israel is a member of a small number of countries that share what may be loosely termed 'western values'.In the main these are a democratically elected government; an  independent judiciary and legal system; and a free market economy.Arab countries lack these institutions and seem economically feckless by comparison. What for example have they contributed to the advancement of civilisation apart from providing us with oil and gas they happened to be sitting on ?If Israel falls to such countries surrounding it that in no way can be described as having the above institutions, we could well be next to be threatened.If you don't care, then that says more about you than it does about Israel.In more detail -1) I am passionately anti-racist and continual attacks on the world's only Jewish state are clear examples of racism, however much attempts are made to hide the fact by claiming you are just 'anti-Zionist' or 'anti-western imperialism'. That racism is called antisemitism which has been occurring for millennia , culminated in the genocide (in the true definition of the term) of 6,000,000 Jews  in WWII and carries on today. It is reflected in the many anti-Israel postings on this Forum by a well known group of people I collectively call the West Putney Palestinian Liberation Front. You now seem to be a new member !2) I see Israel as an ally in any conflict between the West and Islamic states. Islamic states that do not allow same sex marriage; suppress the rights of women; and also ban gay rights to the extent of hanging some gays from industrial cranes because of their sexuality. And particularly the terrorist extremists from those states who have been responsible for the deaths of hundreds of UK citizens in our homeland over the recent decades.3) But particularly, why is the right to statehood in Israel's case from amongst all other counties in the world so objectionable to you ? When push comes to shove, if you are against this concept and UN legal fact then you must presumably support Hamas (still holding Israeli women, children and the elderly hostage plus their corpses) and other Arab terrorists in their objective to destroy it. Is that your position ?4) But to end on a conciliatory note, I believe that steps need to be taken to set up a Palestinian state provided -a) it accepts the right of Israel to exist alongside it and signs a treaty to recognise this fact which currently Hamas and the Palestinian Authority do not.b) Israel is militarily prepared to defend its borders should the Arabs break their word.c) some definition of what territory this state should occupy and how it should be governed which is agreed by Hamas and the Palestinian Authority as is not the case now.Lots of hard work to be done.And Starmer, to win over the UK Muslim vote, saying the UK will recognise Palestine 'when Israel stops its aggression' (sic) rather than when Hamas stops its terrorist attacks will not help and make zilch difference to the situation.

John Hawkes ● 8d

Mr Boyce'A group of some 600 retired Israeli security officials, including former heads of intelligence agencies, have written to US President Donald Trump to pressure Israel to immediately end the war in Gaza."It is our professional judgement that Hamas no longer poses a strategic threat to Israel," the officials said.'That's good news.Well done the IDF !

John Hawkes ● 8d

Why don’t you just do a little bit of reading into the Hannibal Directive and it’s use on the 7th of October, rather than getting hyper defensive and lumping it in with 9/11 conspiracy theories etc.I think there’s more than enough information to believe that this episode should be investigated fully by an impartial team and reported on. It’s too serious to be dismissed.

Gerry Boyce ● 9d

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_7_attacksI am very surprised you haven’t heard of the Hannibal Protocol or directive; anyway, the above is a link that will give you some information about it.

Gerry Boyce ● 9d

I would have to agree with you on my spelling.Yes of course all states should be held to account as well as organizations such as Hamas.Those of us that live in some form of a democracy have a duty to push for more transparency and then take on the chin what ever the truth is, correct any wrong doings if possible and move on.It would be nice to think that states including our own no longer participate in such practices but I suspect the opposite is true and it takes decades for the truth to come out. Unfortunately under Stasi Starmer it will get much worse!

Ed Robinson ● 9d

By April 1945 Germany no longer represented a strategic threat to the Allies. But the Allies did not cease hostilities until the Nazis surrendered and laid down their weapons. Israel cannot afford to call a ceasefire which leaves Hamas in control of parts of Gaza, still holding their hostages.

Steven Rose ● 9d

Interesting development, some sane voices coming through at last!A group of some 600 retired Israeli security officials, including former heads of intelligence agencies, have written to US President Donald Trump to pressure Israel to immediately end the war in Gaza."It is our professional judgement that Hamas no longer poses a strategic threat to Israel," the officials said."Your credibility with the vast majority of Israelis augments your ability to steer Prime Minister Netanyahu and his government in the right direction: End the war, return the hostages, stop the suffering," they wrote.I hope Trump does the right thing.

Gerry Boyce ● 9d

"And you Mr Boyce, who has no dog in this fight in reality....'.As a matter of interest John, what dog would you say that you have in this fight?

Gerry Boyce ● 9d

But what about the Hannibal Directive, which had been revoked in 2016, suddenly being used on October 7th? Has there been any independent formal investigation into this and report published yet?

Gerry Boyce ● 9d

Mr Boyce'Hmmm! Food for thought Robert. Thanks.'Sums you up really doesn't it.You have never even considered such an obvious solution.

John Hawkes ● 9d

Hmmm! Food for thought Robert. Thanks.

Gerry Boyce ● 9d

Mr Boyce'Otherwise, it (Israel)will continue to appear as a government that is unreliable, untrustworthy and completely autocratic.'Compared to the Governments of the surrounding Islamic states ?From today's Telegraph."Saudi Arabia executes eight people in one day"'Rise in capital punishment under Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, despite pledge to cut down on the death penalty'03 August 2025 2:08pm BSTSaudi Arabia has executed eight people in a single day amid a surge in the use of the death penalty for drug-related convictions.Four Somalis and three Ethiopians were executed on Saturday in the southern region of Najran “for smuggling hashish into the kingdom”, the Saudi Press Agency said.One Saudi man was executed for the murder of his mother.Since the beginning of 2025, Saudi Arabia has executed 230 people, according to an AFP tally of official reports. Most of those executions, 154 people, were on drug-related charges'.And you Mr Boyce, who has no dog in this fight in reality, will appear to be someone whose continual attacks on Israel with no criticism of those trying to annihilate it will simply come across as what I believe you to be - antisemitic.

John Hawkes ● 9d

I wouldn't agree about the BBC and their use of on the ground reporters and the conditions under which they are attempting to gather facts.It is an incredibly difficult situation for journalists given that they are not allowed on the ground, but the reports I have seen from the BBC attempt to back up their claims with evidence.I agree with you regarding transparency but I don't know why you have no confidence in 'Western Journalists'. Facts are facts, no? If they are backed up with evidence then they may well be compelling.Why don't Israel allow journalists and investigators in to see for themselves? It does no favours to the Israeli government other that make them look shifty and criminal.Scrutiny is essential.

Gerry Boyce ● 9d

Mr Boyce''Has there been any formal investigation yet to find out how many Israeli civilians were killed by the IDF under the Hannibal protocol in place on October 7th.?'Please explain what this protocol is and why the IDF would choose to deliberately kill its own citizens.Rather than just spewing up gobbets of unevidenced claims of Israeli maleficence why don't you just simply explain what you  mean by them ?

John Hawkes ● 9d

Mr Brigo'Israel also attacked a boat in international waters, killing 9 civilianshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Gaza_flotilla_raid'As recently as that ?

John Hawkes ● 9d

Mr RobinsonYour English spelling is pretty appalling but I note your Hebrew looks pretty good to me !If states must be held to account, a point I tend to agree with, how should the same apply to terrorist groups like Hamas that make claims to statehood ?I note how far back you have to go to dig up more accusations of Israeli infamy.Before 2005 ?

John Hawkes ● 9d

Mr RoseLogic or rational evidence based discourse on this topic is way beyond Mr Robinson.Humour will always escape him !

John Hawkes ● 9d

Mr Robinson'There is plenty of evidence the British State was possibly still is involved in terrorism.'Where is this taking place and what evidence do you have for it ?What purpose do you think you are serving when you make these audacious claims but can never back them up ?Other than to show antipathy if not worse to Israel and now your own country.

John Hawkes ● 9d

I am all in favour of transparency, Gerry.  But I have no confidence in Western journalists to investigate the facts impartiallly , least of all in the BBC who throughout the conflict have shown outrageous bias, not least in their use of Palestinian journalists on the ground without informing their viewers that these reports were made under Hamas censorship.

Steven Rose ● 9d

Only in your opinion Gerry.  Your whole conspiracy theories are nearly as bonkers as the Covid vaccine theories.Israel is a democratic sovereign country who were invaded by terrorists.  Release the hostages and end this war.  Why not?

Robert Wheeler ● 9d

First time, as far as I am aware, that the Hannibal directive was used against civilians was October 7th.Rather than you speculating about how many Israelis were killed by the IDF, both civilians and soldiers that day, Stephen. - we can all link to various on line pages and sites to get information about it from various sources; official analysis, eye-witness accounts, unofficial opinions etc. - it is essential that Israel permits  journalists and investigators in to carry out their own investigations and gather facts. Not only relating to October 7th but the ongoing massacre in Gaza.Otherwise, it will continue to appear as a government that is unreliable, untrustworthy and completely autocratic.

Gerry Boyce ● 9d

Whenever Arabs commit terrorist acts against Israel there is a nasty tendency to blame the victim. So, for example, it is alleged (without evidence) that the car bombs placed outside the Israeli embassy and a Jewish charity, injuring 20 people, were part of a Mossad operation. In the same way the attack on the Twin Towers on 9/11, killing thousands, is alleged to have been a Mossad-CIA plot. Many Muslims actually believe this. ( I have met at least one who assured me that the story is true). The allegation that the Israelis applied the Hannibal Directive on October 7 and killed several hostages is a variation on this theme.  In this case there is evidence that in the chaos of October 7 a few hostages were killed and wounded by friendly fire. But the idea that Israeli troops were trying to kill hostages rather than allow them to be abducted is unthinkable. What they were trying to do was to stop the vehicles which Hamas were using to take the hostages into Gaza. The motives for this obviously risky and controversial policy were twofold. Firstly the Israeli troops on the ground calculated that, despite the risk, the hostages would stand a better chance of survival if they could be rescued than if taken into Gaza. The fact that so few hostages have survived bears out this view. Secondly Israel cannot afford to let their enemies think that its citizens can be abducted with impunity for this would only lead to further abductions in the future. Potential kidnappers have to made aware that they risk being killed if they attempt operations of this kind.

Steven Rose ● 9d

Israel also attacked a boat in international waters, killing 9 civilianshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Gaza_flotilla_raid

Michael Brigo ● 9d

I think the days of ministers resigning in many countries may have pasted.Countries including the UK (as acknowledged by the USA with regards to the Irian coup) carry out false flag operations. It's why states must be held always to account. Of course there are always people that think their state would not do such a thing, however history tells us otherwise."The operation ultimately became known as the "Lavon affair" after the Israeli defense minister Pinhas Lavon, who was forced to resign as a consequence of the incident. Before Lavon's resignation, the incident had been euphemistically referred to in Israel as the "Unfortunate Affair" or "The Bad Business" (Hebrew: העסק הביש, HaEsek HaBish). Israel publicly denied any involvement in the incident until 2005, when the surviving agents were awarded certificates of appreciation by Israeli President Moshe Katsav.[3]

Ed Robinson ● 10d

It is well known that Mossad have assassinated individuals designated as enemies of Israel. The Lillehammer affair was a botched attempt to kill one of the terrorists who had participated in the massacre of Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics of 1972. Instead they killed an innocent person by mistake. An assassination operation of that kind is rather different from an alleged false flag bomb attack with no other purpose than to make the Palestinians look bad. The incident referred to by Ed occurred in 1994 when terrorists set off a car bomb outside the Israeli embassy and thirteen hours later set off another car bomb outside the London HQ of one of the largest Jewish charities. A total of 20 people were injured.  Two Palestinians were convicted of conspiracy to cause explosions in 1996 and lost their appeal in 2001. Their case was reviewed by the European Court of Human Rights in 2007 who concluded that their trial had been fair. The only evidence that this was a false flag operation is a statement by Annie Machon, a former MI5 officer, who claimed Mossad were likely to have been responsible for the attack in order to achieve key Israeli goals. Does anyone apart from Ms Machon believe that the Israeli PM would have sanctioned an attack in which Israeli embassy staff and other Jews would be injured and possibly killed purely for propaganda purposes? No Israeli politician could hope to survive a scandal of that magnitude.

Steven Rose ● 10d

".the idea that Mossad planted a bomb in London is an absurd conspiracy theory."Possibly, possibly not - as I mentioned there were allegations which were fairly widely reported. Perhaps you should ask MI5 or wait another 20 plus years!"Annie Machon, the former MI5 intelligence officer and author has claimed that the internal MI5 never disclosed investigation concluded the bombing was likely a Mossad false flag operation successfully designed to achieve key Israeli objectives"https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_London_Israeli_embassy_bombing

Ed Robinson ● 10d

Has there been any formal investigation yet to find out how many Israeli civilians were killed by the IDF under the Hannibal protocol in place on October 7th.?

Gerry Boyce ● 10d

But who would have thought Mossad would murder an innocent person on the streets of Norway?https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillehammer_affair

Michael Ixer ● 10d

Really, Ed, the idea that Mossad planted a bomb in London is an absurd conspiracy theory. What possible policy objectives could Israel have in carrying out a dreadful act of terrorism in a friendly country? I can just imagine the scene at Mossad HQ:Moshe: I know, guys, let's plant a bomb in London and we can blame it on the Palestinians.Esther: Isn't that rather dangerous? What if the plan is discovered or someone talks out of turn? Wouldn't that be a diplomatic disaster for Israel? And we might kill Jews. How would that look?Moshe: Don't worry your pretty little head over that. It'll be just like last time. You remember 9/11, when no Jews died, because we told all the Jewish businessmen with offices in the Twin Towers to take the day off. Well we can do the same thing in London. We'll just tell the Jews to make sure they avoid the area when the bomb explodes. I'll take it to the PM.

Steven Rose ● 10d

"Many if it's former leaders were also prescribed terrorists'.That is not unusual when a people are fighting for independent statehood."Precisely. Who the UK prescribe as a terrorist is very subjective as we have seen recently in Syria.There is plenty of evidence the British State was possibly still is involved in terrorism. With regards to the Dublin bombings of the 70' s we will have to wait another 50 years assuming material hasn't been destroyed by then. There is still material with held on the UK's support for the Taliban.Unfortunately we do not live in a country that has transparency when it comes to events. It is highly likely that the UK will become less transparent.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings

Ed Robinson ● 10d

"I also think it is highly tendentious to describe people convicted of terrorist crimes, including murder and others detained on suspicion of preparing terrorist acts as 'hostages'."Not everyone held by Israel are convicted or given a trial. Some of those including children are convicted by military courts."Almost 7,000 Palestinians detained without standard trials, NGOs report"https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-837695

Ed Robinson ● 10d

I also think it is highly tendentious to describe people convicted of terrorist crimes, including murder and others detained on suspicion of preparing terrorist acts as 'hostages'. The hostages  abducted by Hamas included toddlers and girls attending a pop festival.

Steven Rose ● 10d

Mr Robinson'It should be pointed out that Israel also holds hostages including women and children'.Hostages, in the main kidnapped CIVILIANS as those taken and still held by Hamas, or PoWs ?Details please.'There are also allegations of Israel planting a bomb in London'.Allegations by whom ?Details please.'Many if it's former leaders were also prescribed terrorists'.That is not unusual when a people are fighting for independent statehood.Do you condemn - Jomo Kenyatta in Kenya; Nelson Mandela in South Africa; Aung San Suu Kyi in Myanmar; Jawaharlal Nehru in India; Vaclav Havel in Czechoslovakia; Michelle Bachelet in Chile.There is no evidence that 'the UK has been known to support terrorism as in the Dublin bombings in the 70s'.This conflict was part of a nationalistic one with a mainly protestant majority in Northern Ireland wishing to stay part of the UK and a mainly catholic minority wishing to become part of Eire.After years of bombings and assassinations by the IRA in NI and the UK mainland I suspect some members of the UVF or the like took the fight below the border.  '"Annie Machon, the former MI5 intelligence officer and author has claimed that the internal MI5 never disclosed investigation concluded the bombing was likely a Mossad false flag operation successfully designed to achieve key Israeli objectives"Are you suggesting the Islamic bombings in the last decades that killed so many innocent men, women and children in this country were actually carried out by Israel ?What would they gain by this and how come its only you and this woman know about it ?The 'two state solution' in the US failed for many reasons and none of them inter-racial or religious.In the Middle East we have an Islamic group that wishes to annihilate a Jewish one.

John Hawkes ● 10d

It should be pointed out that Israel also holds hostages including women and children.There are also allegations of Israel planting a bomb in London. Many if it's former leaders were also prescribed terrorists.The UK has been known to support terrorism be it the Dublin bombings in the 70s or those liberals in Afghanistan called the Taliban in the 80's or Jihadi's more recently.Back to Starmer's and his policy announcement which makes as much sense as his Brexit policy.It's a nonsense for anyone to suggest that a two state solution is the answer to finding peace when you do not recognize that there are two states.A two state solution didn't work well in North America. States also become less important when people get equality, peace and stability. So I'm not in fan of the so called two state solution, although I'm not against there being two states I just think it will not resolve any of the issues."Annie Machon, the former MI5 intelligence officer and author has claimed that the internal MI5 never disclosed investigation concluded the bombing was likely a Mossad false flag operation successfully designed to achieve key Israeli objectives"

Ed Robinson ● 10d