Forum Topic

Mr Rose'Two possible but contradictory explanations come to mind. One is that the first individual thinks Hamas have a right to govern Gaza while the second believes that the IDF are evil bastards who lure civilians to the food distribution points in order to murder them, but both are afraid to state their beliefs openly for fear of being accused of anti-Semitism. The other explanation is that they don’t actually agree with these suggestions but are reluctant to say anything that might be interpreted as support for Israel. But maybe they should speak for themselves'.You are absolutely right.But they cannot fear accusations of antisemitism for their posts make clear that this is the political and philosophical bedrock of the stand they take in the conflict.So many on this Forum are quite happy to froth at the mouth over what they see as Israel's 'appalling' conduct in this conflict using terms such as genocide and apartheid at the drop of a hat.And it is my view that they do think it right that Hamas should govern Gaza at whatever risk to Israel.But when asked for specific actions they would propose to resolve the situation, bearing in mind Hamas still holds Israeli captives and has vowed the annihilation of Israel and its Jewish citizens, they have no answer.They just post faux emotional links about starving children and the IDF shooting them.Either they can't think of any or they are quite happy with Hamas' objective yet are  too ashamed and cowardly to admit it publicly.So let's put the issue to these people one by one."Mr Carter,1) Do you think Israel has the right to exist ?2) What specific steps should be put in place such that Israel and Palestine can co-exist in the Middle East assuming you think they should ?".Messrs Ainsworth and Brigo and MSs Bond, Carter and Holliday can in the meantime be preparing their responses in order to enlighten us later.Collectively they might come up with a just, realistic and practicable solution.

John Hawkes ● 28d

Mr Rose,As usual you are far too generous in the allowances you make to the anti-Israel; anti-Zionist; anti-Jewish and in my view anti-semitic posters on this Forum.They might not declare their open support for Hamas because of course it is a criminal offence.But they never perpetually criticise this Palestinian terrorist organisation as they do Israel, and even any showing of disapproval for the October 2023 pogrom was fleeting and now its ongoing consequences are forgotten and not declared.Of course they could hardly not criticise this event at the time.Bad PR.But they could, as they do, divert attention from it to the subsequent Israel-Palestine war with faux-shock headlines regarding the deaths of children.To them they were deliberate acts by the IDF whereas similar deaths in October 2023 were of course ......?From the point of view of getting to the bottom of the current and historical Middle East conflict your posts are not only of a high intellectual standard but a refreshing burst of the truth.Alpha+ I would say compared with those of your pro-Palestinian opponents whose contributions I would give Gamma-. Any counter to your post is likely to be no more than a few links to some pro-Palistinian organisation or journalist.See today's comment piece in the Guardian from little Owen Jones - the white vested avenger.Or yesterday's contribution from Nour Abo Aisha.Both with 'heart wrenching' photos of crying children.Note that neither of them put forward any practical plans to resolve the conflict.As such we can hardly fault pro-Palestinian Forum posters for similarly being quick to criticise Israel but also having no idea of how to do so. Other than for somehow Israel to disappear.

John Hawkes ● 29d

I don’t believe that any of the critics of Israel on the Forum are sympathetic  to Hamas  (though opinion polls suggests that support for Hamas is quite common among British Muslims). One or two contributors are anti-Zionists, an attitude which borders on anti-Semitism since it effectively denies  Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state. But for the most part the critics have unthinkingly  adopted the Palestinian cause, holding Israel responsible for all the problems in the conflict. They selectively cite events which support this position (e.g. the naqba in 1948, the occupation of the West Bank in 1967, the blockade of Gaza from 2005 and now the death of civilians) while ignoring all the evidence which contradicts  their view (e.g. the attack on Israel in 1948 by the surrounding Arab states, the expulsion of Jews from Muslim countries, the militarisation of Gaza by Hamas, the rejection of Israel’s offer to withdraw from the West Bank in return for peace, the pogrom of 7 October, the support for Hamas in both Gaza and the West Bank). With this mindset they delegitimise every action taken by the Israelis to eliminate the threat from Hamas. So when the Israelis accidentally kill civilians, it’s a war crime, and when they move civilians out of harm’s way, it’s ethnic cleansing and still a war crime. And even when they kill Hamas militants, it’s Israel’s fault for having provoked Hamas in the first place.Quite why the left (for it is mainly the left, typified by the ‘Guardian ‘ and the BBC) have adopted the Palestinian cause in such a one sided way is difficult to say. There may be some latent anti-Semitism, which was the case of Labour under Jeremy Corbyn. There is certainly a degree of anti-colonialism in that the Israelis are seen as European imperialists who have stolen land from the indigenous people. On university campuses there is also a problem of intimidation, whereby students find it easier to go along with the prevailing ethos rather risk being ostracised for attempting to defend Israel. And of course the conflict offers ample opportunities to individuals who wish to display their humanitarian sentiments, though, strangely, they don’t apply them to the war in Ukraine.

Steven Rose ● 30d

Michael, if you don't wish to communicate with John, that is your choice. But I hope you are prepared to communicate with me. If so, why not tell me whether you think the Israelis are deliberately targeting civilians?Richard, you really should stop labelling criticism of your views as a 'smear'. The category about which you ask includes you, Gerry and a number of other contributors to the Forum who I would call the 'Israel can do nothing right brigade'. I am afraid that admitting that Israel suffered a murderous assault on October 7 2023 does not count as being open minded. Being open minded also implies a willingness to appreciate that Israel cannot tolerate the presence on its border of a massive terrorist organisation dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish state and the extermination of its Jewish population. You dismiss this threat by arguing that Hamas lack the means to kill all the Jews in Israel. This is obviously true, but they are clearly capable of raping, mutilating and murdering a thousand with a promise of more to come. It you were an Israeli citizen rather than sitting in the safety of Putney, I don't think you would be quite so dismissive about the threat posed by Hamas. None of this, of course, means that Israel should be immune to criticism. I and several other people on the Forum have been critical of Israel's policies, from the settlements on the West Bank to the tactics of the IDF. But I see no willingness on the part of critics of Israel on the Forum to see both sides. Instead they offer relentless criticism of Israel with no recognition of the attempts by the IDF to reduce civilian casualties, no understanding of the difficulty of eliminating terrorists who shield behind civilians, no compassion for the hostages and no solution other than a unilateral ceasefire by Israel leaving Hamas intact.

Steven Rose ● 30d

What a feeble response that is! But actually, it's worse than feeble because of its reference to "a category of contributors to the Forum who, on the topic of Israel and the Palestinians, only posts material critical of the Israelis while never mentioning Hamas and the hostages."  Now Gerry Boyce can speak for himself, but I really would like to know who this category is supposed to contain. As far as I know, everyone here who has been critical of the Israeli response to the murderous October 7th has done so many times, so the claim that this supposedly "one-sided approach is a professed wish for peace but it is always peace on Hamas’ terms" almost reaches Hawkesian levels of smears.However, I'd like to refer to a different aspect of the IDF's behaviour, in its slaughter of the 10 Palestinians, including 5 children, waiting for emergency food, and specifically to the IDF response to their aktion. The attack, it said, was a "technical error" aimed at a claimed Islamic Jihad terrorist but which fell "dozens of metres" from the target. But the worst part of heh response was the statement that "the IDF regrets any harm to uninvolved individuals:" that's a classic non-apology apology, the kind of garbage anu corporate body spews out when a mistake is made - and "regrets" hardly fills the bill here: "regrets" is the kind of thing that follows something relatively trivial like a missed appointment not the killing of 10 innocent civilians. And, the inevitable conclusion of the statement: "The incident is under review." How many times have we seen this statement, only for nothing to come out of the review.This all more closely resembles the view of an organisation that sees the Palestinians as less than human, as does the latest plan of Israel Katz, the actual Minister of Defense in the Israeli government, to set up a camp to house the population of Gaza. Lebensraum in Gaza and the West Bank and now this concentration camp plan, what does this begin to look like to anyone other than an apologist for the Israeli governemnt?

Richard Carter ● 30d

I am afraid, Ivonne, that I have to agree with John on this issue. What you  wrote was that Hamas’ attack was ‘beyond horrific, despicable and reprehensible’ but  that Israel ‘had its eye off the ball’ and ‘that was then and today is today’. Your comment from ‘but’ onwards was inappropriate. You are equating Israel’s incompetence with Hamas’ savagery, as if one  somehow balances the other. That is exactly like saying that a woman was attacked in Tooting High St but on the other hand she shouldn’t have been walking alone. That is victim shaming. The comment ‘that was then’ also downplays, not the savagery of the attack, but the traumatic effect of the atrocity on Israel. Remember that Hamas vowed to repeat the attack ‘again and again’. Israel at that moment realised that it was no longer possible to live with Gaza ruled by Hamas, which had been the policy for twenty years. Hamas had to be eliminated. I am in favour of courteous debate but if you make provocative comments you must expect a robust response.It is not true that John is entirely one-sided in his approach. He has said, and I would agree, that Israel’s campaign has been excessive at times. I think the charge of genocide against Israel is a gross libel. I also don’t think that the IDF sets out to kill civilians. If that were true, why would they give warning of impending attacks (which is more than Coalition forces did in Iraq and Syria)? But the IDF in my opinion are reckless in their effort to eliminate Hamas militants. If their cameras pick up a couple of terrorists walking down the street, the IDF will often take them out regardless of who is around. That at least my interpretation of the latest tragedy reported by the BBC when children were killed. It’s not morally justifiable but it is hard to justify any war. Coalition forces did the same thing during the war in Iraq. I remember when the Americans destroyed the house of a senior Iraqi commander, killing his family. The Allied bombing campaign in the Second World War was even worse.The solution is for Hamas to lay down their arms, release the few hostages still alive and leave Gaza so that the Palestinian population can begin to rebuild their lives under a moderate leadership prepared to coexist with Israel rather than destroy it.

Steven Rose ● 32d

Genocide has, I understand, a very specific legal definition which I think includes an intent to erase a population? Personally, I'll leave that to the lawyers. There are, however, Geneva conventions which cover things like targeting of civilian infrastructure, and the disproportionate killing and maiming of civilians as collateral damage,etc. (I don't think comparisons with, for example WWII, are relevant as these may be UN conventions agreed after that time, perhaps derived from atrocities in that and subsequent wars?) Obviously, terrorist groups don't play by any rules or conventions - perhaps why they're defined as terrorists? They may have a genocidal intent - in Hamas's case the stated aim of erasure of Israel and its Jewish population may be within the definition. However, given the disproportionate military might between Israel and Hama, and the strength of allies supporting Israel, that aim seems an unrealistic one? It would seem the only ally Hamas have - assure from other terrorist groups in Gaza and the Lebanon - is Iran, who might assist in that aim. I can see that as a reason to avoid Iran having nuclear weapons, although there's a debate whether military action versus negotiations is the better pathway; is there a risk of alienating the sizeable Iranian opposition to their current religious government by bombing civilians? (I understand the use action did attempt to minimise civilian casualties?) I can't see any of Israel's other neighbours wanting to enter into armed conflicts with Israel: Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, UAE, etc would seem to have too much to lose? There is a danger those states may need to contend with populations upset by the large number of Palestinian deaths in Gaza but, being cynical, the authoritarian nature of many of those states might assist with containing that?It seems the only westerners with access to Gaza recently are UN and other agencies such as MSF because, as we're continuously told by organisations such as the BBC, journalists from US, UK, EU, etc aren't given access. Is it correct to say the spokespeople from those organisations are anti-Israel or are they personally affected by witnessing the killing and maiming of children, lack of medical, food, fuel, water etc aid, and destroyed infrastructure such as hospitals? Their reports seem to be consistent whether interview in Gaza or outside which surely minimises accusations of coercion by terrorists within Gaza?I'm not sure arguing about whether it's the responsibility is Hamas's, Israel's, or if the UN is biased, is of much help to children suffering in the conflict who must surely be innocent having had no place in determining Gaza's future or past rulers? If Israel, or perhaps more accurately the IDF, are now the effective occupiers of Gaza do international agreements mean they are now responsible for rectifying the humanitarian situation created by the conflict?Note the question marks! I've posed these as questions: I don't claim to have answers, some facts are tricky to ascertain and some points may not reflect my views, but I can see why others might support them. (I'll take any personal attacks as an inability to state a rational and coherent argument, and an indication of ignorance …)

Michael Ixer ● 33d