Forum Topic

Israel attacks Iran

Looks like Netanyahu has decided to start another war. I guess he thinks this will enable him to cling on to being Prime Minister even longer. Meanwhile 223 people have been killed while trying to reach areas designated for aid distribution over the past two weeks, including 57 on Wednesday. Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 40d135 Comments

Michael Brigo ● 30d

A provocative analysishttps://www.spectator.co.uk/article/trumps-iran-strike-is-a-victory-for-the-free-world/"To America and Israel, the free world owes a debt – for courage, for clarity, for doing what had to be done. When the moment came, they did not hesitate. They bore the weight, braved the cost, and moved with the strength history demands........"

John Hawkes ● 31d

Ms Bond'So how many Palestinians are still imprisoned without charge?And don't pretend they are all criminals.'How many of them do you think are criminals ie terrorists ?While you Goggle that, try to find out how many Iranians have been imprisoned, tortured or murdered for being homosexual and trying to promote gay rights; or being female and trying to promote women's rights to wear what clothes they want and to be able to walk the streets whilst unaccompanied by a male relative ?Or even to walk the streets carrying a dog ?There's human rights for you !Luckily Trump has seemingly removed the ability of these medieval Islamo-Fascists to spread their evil thinking further across the Middle East and thence Europe under the threat of them using nuclear weapons.Was he right to do this in your opinion ? 

John Hawkes ● 31d

So how many Palestinians are still imprisoned without charge?And don't pretend they are all criminals.https://www.btselem.org/

Philippa Bond ● 32d

"Israel says it has killed a senior Iranian commander who helped plan Hamas's 7 October 2023 attack on southern Israel, in a strike on Saturday on the city of Qom.The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said the killing of Saeed Izadi marked a key point in the conflict. He was "one of the orchestrators" of the attack, which killed about 1,200 people and saw many others taken to Gaza as hostages, said IDF chief Eyal Zamir".https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn9yxrxwzzzoAnother one bites the dust.

John Hawkes ● 32d

Mr Ainsworth'"where your prejudiced attitude regarding the Middle East conflict derives from."'I'm surprised that you ask this'.But what is your answer ?

John Hawkes ● 32d

Mr Ainsworth'I did not deny that it held corpses. Nor that it had taken the hostages on October 7th.'That's probably because you think such actions are justified in the 'Palestinian freedom fight'.

John Hawkes ● 32d

Mr Ainsworth'Remind me what Ben Gurion wrote in 1938.'I am sure you keep an archive going back far beyond 1938 of what Israeli leaders have said to be used to justify the annihilation of their country.So why don't you tell us.And I think Mr Rose has pointed out your error regarding the currency of the Hamas Charter's intent.I am surprised you made one as I would have thought a copy of it would have stood proud on your bedside table !

John Hawkes ● 32d

The Charter of 1988, on which the Palestinians voted for Hamas, has never been repealed. It is obviously the charter followed by the fanatics who perpetrated rape, mutilation, torture, child abduction, murder and desecration on October 7.

Steven Rose ● 33d

Everybody knows that the Hamas today are exactly the same as The Muslim Brotherhood which is why neighbouring countries would not take Palestine refugees.  The rebranding didn’t work unfortunately.

Robert Wheeler ● 33d

2017 Hamas charter - not the 1988 one.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charterRemind me what Ben Gurion wrote in 1938.

David Ainsworth ● 33d

Hamas Charter (1988):'Israel will exist and continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it.''(Peace) initiatives and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.''The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees and the rocks and trees will say."O Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him." 'David Ainsworth:'Can you show the section of the charter to which you refer, please?' (in reference to 'Hamas' genocidal charter).'You fail to notice that that "The Charter was notable for accepting a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders ...'It would be hard to find a clearer example of gaslighting!

Steven Rose ● 33d

"where your prejudiced attitude regarding the Middle East conflict derives from."I'm surprised that you ask this. The whole thing derives from your frenzied fantasy-driven imagination, not any reality. You remember when you "saw the light" rather late and rejected your relatively liberal attitudes. Returning to your childhood in a "reverse Corinthian"?You stave of the threat of your own understanding of this with your oft-repeated "More gaslighting, more gaslighting, why does everybody gaslight me?"

David Ainsworth ● 33d

Mr AinsworthWhat a droll little troll you are !Correct my spelling by all means but why not answer a few direct questions that I have posed you ?Not easy for a Zionist (and thence Jew) hating racial bigot to do, but if you put your mind to it we would all benefit in knowing where your prejudiced attitude regarding the Middle East conflict derives from.

John Hawkes ● 33d

Mr Ainsworth'"What about the statement that ‘Nobody wants to see Israel and its citizens anihilated’? Well Hamas does, as demonstrated by their genocidal Charter."Can you show the section of the charter to which you refer, please?.Read it yet ?

John Hawkes ● 33d

Mr Ainsworth'Libya, Egypt, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Iran (in process - awaiting TACO* Trump's final dispensation) all pretty well neutered, or worse.'What do these countries have in common ?Mostly they are dysfunctional Islamic entities, often promoting or carrying out terrorism against the West.Not deserving much sympathy in my view though Egypt seems to have been pressured by its populace to modernise as they see a more rosy future is possible if they steer clear of the Islamist  fanatics.Hence the Palestinians being turned back at the border.And Syria, post the fascist dictatorship of the Assad family, seems to be talking quite sensibly to the West.I doubt that having thrown off the shackles of Islamic rule and becoming a westernised country with a liberal outlook and economy, Türkiye will step in to help the mad mullahs of Iran.Similarly Pakistan, a member of the British Commonwealth with a large diaspora in the UK doing very well thank you.So Mr Ainsworth you might be disappointed these countries don't sign up for the anti-imperialist philosophy of the West Putney Palestinian Liberation Front and take on Trump on behalf of peace loving Iran.

John Hawkes ● 33d

Yet again as a replacement for any real argument you use "Gaslihting" but you even fail to spell it correctly after all that practice.Oh such a doughty crusader! Or maybe doughy.

David Ainsworth ● 33d

Is the Middle East really so awful or do you all have a psychotic, perhaps even unconscious racial grudge against it ?Libya, Egypt, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Iran (in process - awaiting TACO* Trump's final dispensation) all pretty well neutered, or worse. So it might appear so. And it, of course, was all their own fault.* I know. You cannot depend on consistency from Trump, so I think that Iran will get the full treatment anyway.Pretty neat, though it has taken decades and trillions of dollars, plus untold numbers of dead. Possibly Turkey and Pakistan should look out? Pakistan, of course already has the Bomb, but Erdogan has expressed a desire. Steady now!

David Ainsworth ● 33d

Mr Ainsworth"The Charter was notable for accepting a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders without, however, recognizing Israel.""Will Israel accept 1967 borders?"Why should Israel accept this as a positive gesture on behalf of Hamas ?It seems to require them to accept 'a Palestinian state within the 1997 borders'.What are these borders and what territory would this state claim ?Yet there's more !'without however, recognizing Israel'.So it did not recognise Israel 50 or so years ago and still does not today.Do you believe this is a reasonable position for them to take and do you support them over it ?In the last 50 years Israel Israel has defended itself against attacks and within a framework of democracy and the rule of law, developed the most, perhaps the only, dynamic and innovative modern society in the region.And what it has given the West in terms of technology, health sciences and culture has been vast.What have the the Arab states given us apart from doner kebabs ?Oh and 'Big Oil' !

John Hawkes ● 33d

You obviously cannot read, understand and remember. Yours is at least a good strategy to confuse the opposition.You avoid/fail to notice that:- "The Charter was notable for accepting a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders without, however, recognizing Israel.""Will Israel accept 1967 borders?The majority of the Israeli public opposes reverting to pre-1967 borders. A 2011 study found that, because of security concerns, 77 per cent of Israelis oppose returning to pre-1967 lines, even if it would lead to peace between Israel and neighboring Arab states."

David Ainsworth ● 33d

Mr AinworthYou state "I only denied that "it still holds hostage women, children and the elderly".So how would you describe the hostages ?And how far would you go to defend Hamas and avoid the truth ?https://www.independent.co.uk/news/hamas-gaza-benjamin-netanyahu-israel-american-b2764253.htmlI know this item is 13 days old but do you have a better and more up to date source than The Independent and Associated Press ?If so please share it with us.- Total hostages captured on Oct. 7, 2023: 251- Hostages taken before the Oct. 7 attack: 4, including 2 who entered Gaza in 2014 and 2015 and the bodies of 2 soldiers killed in the 2014 war- Hostages released in exchanges or other deals: 148, of whom 8 were dead- Bodies of hostages retrieved by Israeli forces: 43- Hostages rescued alive: 8- Hostages still in captivity: 56, of whom Israel believes 33 are dead. Netanyahu has said there are “doubts” about the fate of several more.- The hostages in captivity include: 5 non-Israelis ( 3 Thais, 1 Nepalese, 1 Tanzanian), of whom 3 (2 Thais and 1 Tanzanian) have been confirmed dead

John Hawkes ● 33d

Perhaps Iran’s proxy fighters Hamas and Hezbollah could stop using hospitals as shelters for rockets, guns and putting Palestine people as human shields.As an aside where were the military arms that Iran wanted to take out at this hospital?

Robert Wheeler ● 33d

Ms CarterYou state -'Nobody on this forum has denied Israel’s right to exist or has expressed anti-Semitic views'.In so many words you are probably right because those that do believe it and hold these views are sneaky and careful in what they say.But is it not a strange coincidence that it is only Israel that on a daily basis is criticised for its actions ?Actions which in many instances are no worse, bearing in mind it is under existential attack, than those being carried out by numerous other countries - from China to the Republic of Congo.But Messrs Carter, Ainsworth, Brigo and MSs Holliday, Bond and if I may point out, yourself never bang on about such whilst you do regarding Israel. Why is that ?Is Israel really so awful or do you all have a psychotic, perhaps even unconscious racial grudge against it ?

John Hawkes ● 33d

I couldn't agree more with Miki Zohar. Meanwhile....* In Gaza, at least 30 out of 36 hospitals have been damaged or destroyed by Israeli strikes since October 2023.* In Lebanon, around 40 hospitals were hit by Israeli attacks during their 2023 to 2024 campaign against Hezbollah.* In Iran, one confirmed hospital ICU in Kermanshah was hit by Israeli strikes this week, injuring 15 staff members and patients.

Richard Carter ● 33d

Mr Ainsworthhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Hamas_charter"The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Arabic: ميثاق حركة المقاومة الإسلامية حماس), referred to as the Hamas Covenant or Hamas Charter, was issued by Hamas (the Islamic Resistance Movement) on 18 August 1988 and outlines the organization's founding identity, positions, and aims.In 2017, Hamas unveiled a revised charter, without explicitly revoking the 1988 charter.The original Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and described its members to be god-fearing Muslims raising the banner of Jihad (armed struggle) in "the face of the oppressors." ****The charter defines the struggle to be against the Jews****and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic Palestinian state in all of former Mandatory Palestine, ****and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel****. The charter has been criticized for its use of antisemitic language, which some commentators have characterized as incitement to genocide. Hamas's 2017 charter removed the antisemitic language and clarified Hamas's struggle is with Zionists, not Jews.'Gaslihting change at the end."struggle is with Zionists, not Jews.'' A Zionist is a supporter of Zionism; a person who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel'.Ergo Hamas and their fellow travellers do not believe the state of Israel inhabited by Jews should exist.Albeit Israel has a more pluralistic society in political and religious terms than most countries - for instance the Islamic (sic) Republic of Pakistan.

John Hawkes ● 33d

Mr AinsworthPalestine does exist.From Wikiperdia.'Palestine, officially the State of Palestine, is a country in West Asia. Recognized by 147 of the UN's 193 member states, it encompasses the Israeli-occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, collectively known as the occupied Palestinian territories, within the broader geographic and historical Palestine region. Palestine shares most of its borders with Israel, and it borders Jordan to the east and Egypt to the southwest. It has a total land area of 6,020 square kilometres (2,320 sq mi) while its population exceeds five million people. Its proclaimed capital is Jerusalem, while Ramallah serves as its administrative center. Gaza City was its largest city prior to evacuations in 2023'.The following countries do not recognise itEurope: Andorra, Austria, Belgium, Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Moldova, Netherlands, North Macedonia, Slovenia, Switzerland, England, Monaco, San Marino and PortugalAmericas: Bahamas, Canada, Mexico, Panama, United States, Trinidad and Tobago, Barbados and JamaicaAsia: Japan, Myanmar, Singapore, South Korea and ArmeniaThe Middle East: IsraelOceania: Fiji, Kiribati, Federated States of Micronesia, Nauru, Australia, New Zealand, Samoa, Solomon Islands, Marshall Islands, Palau, Tuvalu and TongaAfrica: Cameroon and Eritrea.This lack of recognition and the 'occupation' of the West Bank and Gaza (intriguingly 'governed' by Palestinian groups that do nor recognise each other !) by Israel is because these groups, particularly Hamas do not recognise the right of Israel to exist.Hamas invaded Israel from Gaza and has the obliteration of Israel and the annihilation of the Jews living there written into its Charter. Once extreme Palestinian antisemites and their fellow travellers in the West (Putney !) come to terms with Israel's right to exist then perhaps meaningful negotiations can take place over how these Middle East neighbours can live peacefully side by side.

John Hawkes ● 33d

Obviously I meant nobody on this forum!

Jane Carter ● 34d

"What about the statement that ‘Nobody wants to see Israel and its citizens anihilated’? Well Hamas does, as demonstrated by their genocidal Charter."Can you show the section of the charter to which you refer, please?

David Ainsworth ● 34d

"Jane says, ‘No one on this forum has denied Israel’s right to exist or expressed anti-Semitic views’. The first part of this sentence is not strictly true: at least one person has repeatedly denied Israel’s right to exist."Does Palestine have a right to exist?

David Ainsworth ● 34d

"But in my opinion unfounded accusations of genocide and remarks like ‘Israel is weaponising the Holocaust’ and ‘Jews are always playing the victim’ are deeply offensive. ‘"Have you any particular examples?

David Ainsworth ● 34d

Ms Grant:-Times of Israel, 7/3/25"The next 24: These are the remaining hostages presumed alive in GazaTwo dozen men — fathers, soldiers, security guards, tech workers, dreamers, dancers and more — are still captive after over 500 days, along with the bodies of 35 others"https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-next-24-these-are-the-remaining-hostages-presumed-alive-in-gaza/"it still holds hostage women, children and the elderly plus corpses of those taken in the October 2023 attack."I did not deny the "plus corpses of those taken in the October 2023 attack." section.Does that help?

David Ainsworth ● 34d

You wrote "it still holds hostage women, children and the elderly plus corpses of those taken in the October 2023 attack."I only denied that "it still holds hostage women, children and the elderly".I did not deny that it held corpses. Nor that it had taken the hostages on October 7th.

David Ainsworth ● 34d

I think Jane’s post is well meant but I don’t agree with her conclusions. Jane says, ‘No one on this forum has denied Israel’s right to exist or expressed anti-Semitic views’. The first part of this sentence is not strictly true: at least one person has repeatedly denied Israel’s right to exist. As to the second part, it depends on how you define anti-Semitism. If you mean Nazi style Jew-baiting, then obviously not. But in my opinion unfounded accusations of genocide and remarks like ‘Israel is weaponising the Holocaust’ and ‘Jews are always playing the victim’ are deeply offensive. ‘What about the statement that ‘Nobody wants to see Israel and its citizens anihilated’? Well Hamas does, as demonstrated by their genocidal Charter. Unfortunately some people on the forum have dismissed this as an empty threat given Israel’s military power. Well Hamas obviously doesn’t have the means to kill everyone but it certainly has the ability to brutalise and murder a thousand Israeli citizens. Is Israel supposed to live with that?‘The criticism of Israel has focused on the terrible destruction of Gaza and the huge number of killings, especially children’. Yes, the devastation and death toll are aweful, though it is likely that almost a half of the casualties are actually Hamas militants, some of whom may have participated in the massacre of October 7. But how is the IDF supposed to eliminate an enemy that shelters behind the civilian population? Critics of Israel need at least to address that question.‘Yes, some sort of peaceful agreement must be reached.’ Peace would obviously give respite to the beleaguered people of Gaza but peace on what terms? Hamas has no intention of giving up. They seek an ‘agreement’ which would leave them in control of Gaza, in return for which they might hand  over  few hostages still alive. Israel can’t and won’t allow Hamas to stay in power.

Steven Rose ● 34d

You appear to have brain or heat stroke Mr Ainsworth. As I pointed out up thread there are men and women still being held hostage (alive and dead) by Hamas. I have seen their photos even if the Times of Israel hasn't shown them, which I very much doubt, as the photos are on display at Hostage Square in Tel Aviv.You do the work.

Lucille Grant ● 34d

Mr Ainsworth'Times of Israel.Photos.No women, no children, no elderly.'What photos are you referring to ?What do they prove ?Is the AP an unreliable source ?So who are the hostages listed by AP ?Would you concede that women, children and the elderly were kidnapped, and some sexually assaulted, tortured and murdered October 2023 ? And the corpses ?Did they include those of women, children and elderly ?I am beginning to feel sorry for you that in your hatred of Israel and the Jews you can stoop so low as to include such pathetic arguments and denials. You embarrass yourself and reduce to dust any pro-Palestinian support arguments you might put forward.Have you convinced yourself you are not an antisemite ?

John Hawkes ● 34d

Times of Israel.Photos.No women, no children, no elderly.Do the work.

David Ainsworth ● 34d

Mr AinsworthYou refute the claim '"it (Hamas) still holds hostage women, children and the elderly"'No, they do not'.Yet according to the Independent online quoting The Associated Press Thursday 05 June 2025 11:41 BST- Total hostages captured on Oct. 7, 2023: 251- Hostages taken before the Oct. 7 attack: 4, including 2 who entered Gaza in 2014 and 2015 and the bodies of 2 soldiers killed in the 2014 war- Hostages released in exchanges or other deals: 148, of whom 8 were dead- Bodies of hostages retrieved by Israeli forces: 43- Hostages rescued alive: 8- ***Hostages still in captivity: 56, of whom Israel believes 33 are dead. Netanyahu has said there are “doubts” about the fate of several more***.- The hostages in captivity include: 5 non-Israelis ( 3 Thais, 1 Nepalese, 1 Tanzanian), of whom 3 (2 Thais and 1 Tanzanian) have been confirmed dead.Has the situation totally changed in the last 12 days or does the West Putney Palestinian Liberation Front have an information source that AP does not ?

John Hawkes ● 34d

Ms Carter'Nobody on this forum has denied Israel’s right to exist or has expressed anti-Semitic views'.Explicitly perhaps not but it is only the actions of the Jewish state of Israel that are ever criticised so I think one is entitled to infer something from this fact.'the terrible destruction of Gaza and the huge number of killings, especially of children.'What is your understanding of what brought this about ?Perhaps you might begin with what happened 7th October 2023.Apart from in the main Mr Rose and myself no one else seems to have attempted to explain what happened then and since.

John Hawkes ● 34d

Hamas still have the body of at least one young female hostage. I know this for a fact having spent time at a weekly silent vigil for the remaining hostages (including their bodies) yesterday afternoon. If you wish to join me another time to show your empathy Mr Ainsworth please let me know.

Lucille Grant ● 34d

"it still holds hostage women, children and the elderly"No, they do not.

David Ainsworth ● 34d

Nobody on this forum has denied Israel’s right to exist or has expressed anti-Semitic views, unlike Owen Jones whose views are deplorable. Nobody wants to see Israel and its citizens annihilated. The criticism of Israel has focussed on the terrible destruction of Gaza and the huge number of killings, especially of children. Yes some sort of peaceful agreement must be reached and yes Hamas are Barbarians. So I agree Pax

Jane Carter ● 34d

Ms Carter'Perhaps this is, therefore, time, to finish arguing over Israel, at least for the time being?'You are probably right as there is, to put it simplistically, a large anti-Israel faction on this Forum and a smaller pro-Israel one.Some in my opinion in the first faction do not accept the right of Israel to exist as an independent democratic state as endorsed by the UN.Some even appear to be antisemitic.They would like to see it and its citizens annihilated.I am one of the latter faction that fully accept Israel's right to exist and defend itself against attacks and pogroms by racist, fascist Islamist Arabs.Not that I have any connection with Israelis or Jews.But I have always hated bullies which most Islamists are with regard to Israel, and I tend instinctively to support the bullied.That being said I do not believe that all of Israel's  actions have been politically wise though I doubt in the main the stories of its so called genocide and apartheid against Palestinians, stories that mostly flow from Hamas sources or a misguided or biased UN.The civilian casualties resulting from its reaction to being attacked are often the unfortunate result of how they are cynically, cruelly and casually used by Hamas.Obviously some sort of peaceful agreement has to be arrived at between Israel and the democratically elected rulers of Palestine; Gaza and the West Bank.This is unlikely to happen should Hamas want to participate, not least because it still holds hostage women, children and the elderly plus corpses of those taken in the October 2023 attack.And it gave up democracy in 2007.These people are barbarians not peace seekers. So yes - "Pax".

John Hawkes ● 34d

What is the harm in engaging in an exchange of views, providing it is polite and rational.In my view those who wish to close down a discussion fear to have their prejudices challenged.

Steven Rose ● 35d

I’m suggesting it now.

Jane Carter ● 35d

Do you have a desire to stop discussing the issue?

David Ainsworth ● 35d

I haven’t noticed any desire on the part of critics of Israel to stop discussing the issue (see the latest thread on the ‘Jerusalem Post’).

Steven Rose ● 35d

You may well be right but your points apply to both sides in the debates on Israel. Perhaps this is, therefore, time, to finish arguing over Israel, at least for the time being?

Jane Carter ● 35d

Owen Jones’ diatribe in the ‘Guardian’ illustrates some (though not all) of the  failings which have vitiated debate on Israel in the Forum:1) a tendency to select facts which support a particular viewpoint while ignoring those that contradict it2) a habit of using exaggerated language and, when challenged, pretending that  the words use don’t mean what every knows they mean3) a refusal to discuss objections raised by others or to answer questions.

Steven Rose ● 35d

I fear it might seem that my posts on the current Israel and Iran confrontation are one sided in favour of Israel.To counter this I suggest you read a different perspective in an article by Guardian journalist Owen Jones, the young boy who is always photographed in that paper wearing a vest."The warmongers were wrong about Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. Now watch them make the same mistake about Iran". https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jun/18/iraq-afghanistan-libya-warmongers-always-wrong-iran-attacks-nothing-change-minds Some tasters - 'As the G7 issues a statement declaring that Israel has a “right to defend itself”, you have a right to ask if you are losing your mind. Israel launched an unprovoked onslaught on Iran. Its excuse – that Tehran may acquire a nuclear weapon'."The horror, the horror !"'No country in the Middle East is as great a source of regional instability and terror as Israel: it’s not even close'."If only the Jews would crawl back to the ghettos of Europe and give back the Palestinian homeland".There you are Messrs Ainsworth, Brigo and Carter, and MSs Carter, Holliday and Bond, mea culpa.

John Hawkes ● 35d

This is why it is vital to OUR national security that Israel succeeds in at least reducing the terrorism and nuclear capability of Iran.More word salad I'm afraid.https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-britain-needs-israel-to-win-against-iran/'Iran operates hit squads in the UK with the explicit aim of assassinating British citizens it deems to be enemies. In 2023 the then security minister Tom Tugendhat gave MPs details of how the police and security services had detected at least 15 ‘credible threats’ to kill or kidnap UK citizens and residents in 2022. Iran, he said, had been gathering information about Jews as a ‘preparation for lethal operations’.In his statement, he named an IRGC (The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps member Mohammad Mehdi Mozayyani, who had ‘worked to conduct a lethal operation against Iranian dissidents here in the United Kingdom’. Iran International, an Iranian opposition television station, was forced to close its London office because the threat to its staff was so serious. Last month, three alleged Iranian spies appeared in court charged with targeting UK-based journalists so that ‘serious violence’ could be inflicted on them.The import of Mr Tugendhat’s statement has been widely ignored, not least by the government in which he served and the current Labour government. Neither has proscribed the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC), the terror arm of the regime. In a subsequent interview with the Jewish Chronicle, one of the few outlets to cover the Iranian presence in the UK, Tugendhat said:"We have very clear intelligence about the activities of hostile regimes in the UK and we keep a very close eye on what their agents and those close to them are doing. We know that the Iranians are using non-traditional sources to carry out these operations, including organised criminal gangs. They are paying criminal gangs to conduct surveillance. Basically, the Iranians are using crooks based in Britain to spy for them… We have been seeing threats and Iranian operational activity directed against them [Israeli and Jewish targets in the UK]. I do not issue these warnings lightly".The director general of MI5, Ken McCallum, has said that "Iran’s ‘aggressive intelligence services’ are actively planning terrorist attacks on British soil, calling it ‘the state actor which most frequently crosses into terrorism’".Last October MI5 said it had foiled at least 20 regime-backed terror plots in the UK since 2022.But it is not just Iranian terror operations that pose a threat to UK safety. The regime is also behind an extensive network of organisations, mosques and student bodies that are a more insidious concern. There is, for example, no bar on alleged links with the IRGC, so the Islamic Centre of England (ICE) has been able to operate as a charity with impunity. This is despite being described last year by the then chair of the Commons Foreign Affairs Select Committee, Alicia Kearns, as the IRGC’s ‘London office’'. Yet doubtless some on this Forum see Iranians as downtrodden brown freedom fighters defending themselves from wicked white Israeli oppressors.

John Hawkes ● 35d

Michael Brigo ● 36d

Am I going to have to send Mr Tickle round to cheer you up?

Michael Brigo ● 36d

Mr Brigo'wake up Mr Grumpy'.I see you have your reading book out from the children's library !

John Hawkes ● 36d

Mr AinsworthYou suggested people not read what you called my 'word salad' posts.(Very yoofish term !) 'Richard CarterDate/Time: 16/06/25 15:28:00Steven, if I could offer a (no doubt) unwelcome piece of advice, I suggest you leave off pursuing this series of posts attempting to justify Israel’s attempted genocide in Gaza: there’s a real danger of your beginning to resemble the endless, repetitive word salads of that poor Hawkes, and that’s not a fate I’d recommend anyone'.So why did you not follow your own rules when posting this diatribe ?-------------------------------------------------------'2011 article from the Christian Science Monitor:-"Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979.Breathless predictions that the Islamic Republic will soon be at the brink of nuclear capability, or – worse – acquire an actual nuclear bomb, are not new.For more than quarter of a century Western officials have claimed repeatedly that Iran is close to joining the nuclear club. Such a result is always declared "unacceptable" and a possible reason for military action, with "all options on the table" to prevent upsetting the Mideast strategic balance dominated by the US and Israel."https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/1108/Imminent-Iran-nuclear-threat-A-timeline-of-warnings-since-1979/Earliest-warnings-1979-84Gdn 2015:-"Leaked cables show Netanyahu’s Iran bomb claim contradicted by MossadGulf between Israeli secret service and PM revealed in documents shared with the Guardian along with other secrets including CIA bids to contact Hamas.Binyamin Netanyahu’s dramatic declaration to world leaders in 2012 that Iran was about a year away from making a nuclear bomb was contradicted by his own secret service, according to a top-secret Mossad document."https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/23/leaked-spy-cables-netanyahu-iran-bomb-mossadFrance24 in 2023:-"Israel has a widely known but undeclared nuclear program. As of January, Israel was believed to possess a stockpile of around 90 nuclear warheads, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.Tehran denies seeking a nuclear bomb but has breached limits on uranium enrichment set in a US-brokered 2015 deal following former president Donald Trump's withdrawal from the agreement and reimposition of sweeping sanctions."https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230922-netanyahu-at-un-issues-nuclear-threat-to-iran-later-retracted'-------------------------------------------------Goes on a bit doesn't it !And when are you going to answer my question asking how, on your tour of the Middle East states, especially Iran, did you find Israel in comparison ? I will not be upset if you use the usual smug and offensive  language when responding to me. Or perhaps with your patent and unashamed hatred for the country, you could you not bear to expose your sensitive soul to its society and people ?

John Hawkes ● 36d

It's a free speech forum, I can post to you if I want to, feel free to not read or reply.Enjoy your siesta, hope you feel better when you wake up Mr Grumpy.

Michael Brigo ● 36d

Mr Brigo'BTW - you are starting to sound a little hysterical - perhaps it's time for a lie down'?And you are your usual insulting and somewhat pathetic self, believing himself to have sense of humour.Please do not post anything to me unless it contains at least a germ of a serious argument relating to the topic at hand.

John Hawkes ● 36d

"Many on this Forum, do want Iran to have a nuclear weapon."Evidence for this? I for one am on the record at least twice in this thread saying I am totally against it.BTW - you are starting to sound a little hysterical - perhaps it's time for a lie down?

Michael Brigo ● 36d

Hello Steven,Please read the following link:https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-andAlso please note the date of the article.

Ivonne Holliday ● 36d

Mr Wheeler'Simple question - do you want Iran with a nuclear weapon?  Will the world be a safer place if they have one.  None of our security services believe it would be neither do Iran’s neighbours in the Middle East.'Many on this Forum, because they have a psychotic hatred of Israel and its Jewish citizens, do want Iran to have a nuclear weapon.Even though it would be in the hands of theocratic dictators  whose religion seems to find martyrdom and an apocalyptic end of the world desirable.Would they want Iran to use it against Israel I am not so sure.Let's face it the radiation might spread to West Putney !Perhaps they can answer.But placing Israel under constant attack and pressure, now boosted by nuclear weapons, does enhance their saviour complex which is their pretext for support of Palestinian and other Arab terrorism.As for Iran's Arab neighbours I doubt they wish the stability of their oil-rich and in the main tribal and undemocratic states to be disturbed.Even those that have large bolt holes in Kensington, Knightsbridge and The Bishops Avenue, doubtless with bomb proof safe rooms, to retire to.

John Hawkes ● 36d

Go look at the evidence, they were sticking to it right up until the point Trump pulled out.History is history, you can attempt to rewrite as much as you like but the evidence is there.Sorry if you don't like it.

Michael Brigo ● 36d

If you believe that he current regime in Iran would stick to any form of agreement (past or present) re nuclear weapons, while still affirming to eradicate the State of Israel, arming and financing their proxies in Lebanon, Yemen and Gaza, you are naive, Mr Brigo.

Lucille Grant ● 36d

Iran does not have nuclear weaponsIsrael does have nuclear weaponsIran is a signatory (for the moment at least) the NPTIsreal is not a signatory to the NPTIran allows inspectors into its nuclear facilities (for the moment at least)Isreal does not allow inspectors in.I fully agree that we don't want Iran to have a nuclear weapons but there was a deal in place to massively reduce the risk of that.

Michael Brigo ● 36d

"There are fascists pretending to be humanitarians - like cannibals on a health kick eating only vegetarians."

Philippa Bond ● 37d

But the difference is that Israel does not wish to destroy Iran whereas Iran is committed to the destruction of the State of Israel. Demonstrators in huge rallies in Teheran regularly cry 'Death to Israel'. This antagonism, which in some cases goes back to the creation of Israel in 1948, is shared by other Arab nations. That is why Israel needs a deterrent.

Steven Rose ● 37d

"do you want Iran with a nuclear weapon"no of course not, and that's why I was very happy (as was every other signatory it would seem) with the 2015 deal as it was before Trump pulled out.Equally I don't want Israel to have nuclear weapons either.

Michael Brigo ● 37d

You are quite right, Ed. I got that wrong. An arrest warrant has been issued for Putin. But the evidence against Putin is compelling. He initiated an unprovoked attack on Ukraine, he has stated that Ukraine has no right to exist as a sovereign state  his troops have allegedly  committed over 60 000 separate war crimes and he has allowed the abduction of over 20 000 children. What is the evidence against Netanyahu? His troops have tried to minimise civilian casualties, which is more than Coalition forces did in Iraq and Syria (or the Allies did in the war).  But Russia has not been accused of genocide, nor even ethnic cleansing at the ICJ. Why not? China has sent around one million Uighur Muslims to concentration camps and engaged in compulsory sterilisation. Yet China  is not facing a charge of ethnic cleansing? Why not? Who can have faith in the impartiality of either the ICC or the ICJ?

Steven Rose ● 37d

"Has the ICC issued an arrest warrant against Putin? No, just Netanyahu"A inaccurate statement, the ICC issued one for Putin over two years ago:They also issued one for the Hamas leadership.'On 17 March 2023, following an investigation of war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide, the International Criminal Court (ICC) issued arrest warrants for Vladimir Putin, the president of Russia, and Maria Lvova-Belova,"https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_arrest_warrants_for_Russian_leadershttps://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-pre-trial-chamber-i-issues-warrant-arrest-mohammed-diab-ibrahim

Ed Robinson ● 37d

Simple question - do you want Iran with a nuclear weapon?  Will the world be a safer place if they have one.  None of our security services believe it would be neither do Iran’s neighbours in the Middle East.

Robert Wheeler ● 37d

I doubt you will read the below as generally speaking you aren't interested in truth but figured I'd give it (another) go."The Iran nuclear agreement was called the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA) and was signed in 2015 by Iran and several nations, including the United States under the Obama administration.Under the deal, Iran agreed to dismantle much of its nuclear program and open its facilities to more international inspections in exchange for the lifting of economic sanctions. The signatory nations had intended to curtail Iran’s nuclear program to the point that if the nation decided to pursue a nuclear weapon, it would take at least one year, giving world powers time to respond, according to the Council on Foreign Relations. At the time, U.S. intelligence officials estimated that, in the absence of an agreement, Iran could produce enough nuclear material for a weapon in a few months. Iran had complied with the agreement, pulling back its proliferation by 2016. In return, the United States, European Union, and United Nations held up their end of the bargain by repealing or suspending their sanctions. The U.S. and other nations also unfroze about $100 billion worth of frozen Iranian assets, according to the Council on Foreign Relations. The Obama administration also cut secondary sanctions on the oil, which allowed Iran to significantly increase its oil exports. The deal came to a crashing halt after Trump unilaterally withdrew the United States from the nuclear agreement and reimposed sanctions lifted under the agreement in 2018 during his first term. Trump’s pullout severely damaged trust between the nations, and although the remaining signatory nations tried to salvage the agreement, Iran backed away from the terms.Iran abandoned all limits that the deal put on its program and enriched uranium to up to 60% purity — near weapons-grade levels of 90%.

Michael Brigo ● 37d

Richard, as has been pointed out, you complain about people adding to the debate on  Israel and there you go, posting on the same topic yourself. You have also complained in the past about rude treatment, but you are quite rude yourself, as demonstrated by your latest post. Why not cut out the personal remarks and concentrate on the issues?On Iran, ten years ago the Iranians were enriching uranium to 3.6% , which is sufficient for electricity generation. Now the enrichment has reached 60%, a level whose only purpose is the production of a nuclear bomb. Do you think Israel should wait until Iran, which like Hamas has called for the destruction of Israel, actually has a nuclear capability?As to diplomacy, the evidence is that Iran has simply been stringing it he rest of the world along for years, making small concessions here and there while inexorably moving to become a nuclear power. And once they they get a bomb, it will be too late to do anything about it. The problem with the Paris Agreement, negotiated by Obama, is that the Iranians only agreed to halt their nuclear weapon programme until 2030, not permanently, in return for the lifting of sanctions. Furthermore the Agreement did not say anything about Iran stopping its aggression against Israel through its proxies: Hezbollah, the Houthis and Hamas. That is why Trump called it a bad deal and withdrew.I agree that the dangers of war are all too obvious but doing nothing is also dangerous as is negotiating with an actor who is negotiating in bad faith.

Steven Rose ● 37d

Mr Carter'Steven, if I could offer a (no doubt) unwelcome piece of advice, I suggest you leave off pursuing this series of posts attempting to justify Israel’s attempted genocide in Gaza:  there’s a real danger of your beginning to resemble the endless, repetitive word salads of that poor Hawkes, and that’s not a fate I’d recommend anyone'.I'll be brief then.'attempting to justify Israel’s attempted genocide in Gaza'Unsubstantiated claim and sloppy and insensitive use of the term genocide in this context.Equivalent to attacking UK in WWII for bombing Dresden.And not wishing to be rude, may I ask are you always so patronising and smug ?Sorry you feel slighted for people deducing you are a supporter of Iran.After your visit what do you think of the country and its regime ?Ever been to Israel on your travels ?You do seem to show a strong anti-Israeli bias and find excuses for every attack made on them by Palestine and other Arab states.Still I suppose you can either support Arsenal or Spurs but not both.Keep smiling !😁

John Hawkes ● 37d

Steven, if I could offer a (no doubt) unwelcome piece of advice, I suggest you leave off pursuing this series of posts attempting to justify Israel’s attempted genocide in Gaza: there’s a real danger of your beginning to resemble the endless, repetitive word salads of that poor Hawkes, and that’s not a fate I’d recommend anyone.But to the point: this thread is about Netanyahu’s new war (as if he wasn’t involved in enough already), this time against Iran. The justification, as far as one can tell, is to stop Iran whilst it’s still on the brink of obtaining nuclear weapons. This excuse, which I certainly agree would be beyond terrible, is rather countered by the fact that Netanyahu has been playing the same record for at least 30 years, and yet Iran is (apparently) still on the brink…A far better approach would be to employ diplomacy; Trump foolishly withdrew from the Paris Agreement on Iran's nuclear program during his first spell, but there are suggestions, not least from Trump himself, that he is trying again. Perhaps Netanyahu was spooked by these suggestions, or is he (again) trying to rescue his failed political career in order to stay out of prison? Whatever, it is difficult to see a justification for the latest bombing, or whether a good outcome is likely to result; the dangers of the war are all too obvious.Oh, and before the usual smear brigade accuse me of being a supporter of the foul Iranian clerical regime, I can assure them that that is very far from the case. And, unlike many people here (I suspect), I have actually spent time in Iran – and, for that matter, in Ukraine since I have worked in the country often and have good friends there. I certainly have not forgotten the dreadful Russian invasion and nor, I am sure, has anyone else here forgotten it either.

Richard Carter ● 37d

Mr Ainsworth'Maybe nobody else here is opposed to the use of nuclear weapons in all cases'.I am and I am sure Israel is too.Thanks for digging out supporting opinion from 2011 and 2015.Whatever they say, everyone knows Israel has atomic weapons.Why would they not have them as a weapon of last result in a MAD defensive strategy bearing in mind the threats they live under.Threats from those whose religion seems to glorify martyrdom and for whom nuclear destruction might seem the ultimate route to what I understand the Quran calls Al-Qiyamah, which which covers what is commonly understood by the expression “Doomsday”, an end of the entire mankind. For were Israel to use nuclear weapons as a first strike on Iran then it would suffer not only from the spread of radiation, but a further loss of international reputation.Not only from you and your ilk that oppose it over all issues as a matter of 'principle' (though I don't know what that principle is), but also the wider and overwhelming majority of right-thinking people who support its right to exist and to defend itself from annihilation by its Arab neighbours.But I am not so sure that civilised and rational thinking exists among the ruling mad mullahs in Iran.This from Simon Tisdall, a Guardian columnist. He is a former Guardian foreign editor, US editor, White House correspondent, foreign leader writer and Observer foreign affairs commentator."Whether inept, driven by survival or corrupt, they are unfit to lead their countries, let alone make decisions that imperil the whole world".'Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran’s bellicose supreme leader, is the second leading culprit. (Others are Trump and Netanyahu).He should have been put out to grass in Qom years ago. The 86-year-old squats atop a repressive, corrupt theocratic regime that has lost touch with the society and people it ostensibly serves. Elections are fixed, judges are bent, media censorship is pervasive. The regime’s military incompetence, economic mismanagement and brutal persecution of young women, gay men and human rights defenders such as Nasrin Sotoudeh are notorious.Like Netanyahu, Khamenei is backed by hardline conservatives and opposed by reformers, but it’s him who calls the shots. His suspicious insistence on stepping up uranium enrichment, even though civil applications are lacking, ultimately gave Netanyahu an opening. Although he is said to be unwell, Khamenei is a key reason why Iran will not abandon its nuclear programme. Even without him, Netanyahu’s idea that it can be totally eliminated is fantasy'.

John Hawkes ● 37d

I guess that you win. Maybe nobody else here is opposed to the use of nuclear weapons in all cases. -----------------------2011 article from the Christian Science Monitor:-"Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979.Breathless predictions that the Islamic Republic will soon be at the brink of nuclear capability, or – worse – acquire an actual nuclear bomb, are not new.For more than quarter of a century Western officials have claimed repeatedly that Iran is close to joining the nuclear club. Such a result is always declared "unacceptable" and a possible reason for military action, with "all options on the table" to prevent upsetting the Mideast strategic balance dominated by the US and Israel."https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/1108/Imminent-Iran-nuclear-threat-A-timeline-of-warnings-since-1979/Earliest-warnings-1979-84Gdn 2015:-"Leaked cables show Netanyahu’s Iran bomb claim contradicted by MossadGulf between Israeli secret service and PM revealed in documents shared with the Guardian along with other secrets including CIA bids to contact Hamas. Binyamin Netanyahu’s dramatic declaration to world leaders in 2012 that Iran was about a year away from making a nuclear bomb was contradicted by his own secret service, according to a top-secret Mossad document."https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/23/leaked-spy-cables-netanyahu-iran-bomb-mossadFrance24 in 2023:-"Israel has a widely known but undeclared nuclear program. As of January, Israel was believed to possess a stockpile of around 90 nuclear warheads, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.Tehran denies seeking a nuclear bomb but has breached limits on uranium enrichment set in a US-brokered 2015 deal following former president Donald Trump's withdrawal from the agreement and reimposition of sweeping sanctions."https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230922-netanyahu-at-un-issues-nuclear-threat-to-iran-later-retracted

David Ainsworth ● 37d

Mr Rose'About the only thing I agree with, Ivonne, is that the war in Ukraine has all but been been forgotten. But why is that? Russia has killed over 100 000 Ukrainians, including 13 000 civilians, and abducted 20 000 children. Is the ICJ considering a case of genocide against Russia? No, just Israel. Has the ICC issued an arrest warrant against Putin? No, just Netanyahu. The international courts are thoroughly compromised, tainted by anti-Semitism'.Well put.Probably the lack of criticism of Russia can be put down to the still remaining belief amongst the far-Left (one that survived the butchering regime of Stalin for instance) that Communism has noble aims - equality for 'the people' and any unfortunate deaths and oppression are a price worth paying for a glorious future.Similar to today's forgiving attitude by some to the vile behaviour of Hamas and Islamist groups or states such as Iran.(see "In Gaza, Israel destroyed its reputation. Attacking Iran is a belated and dangerous attempt to restore it"Nesrine Malik.A typical and predictable pro-Arab anti-Israel diatribe by this writer to generate clickbait by reader comment BTL).Though doubtless the usual suspects will not read what you say and just metaphorically put their fingers in their ears and say "La, la le laa la".There can be little doubt surely that with all of the many other inter-religious or inter-ethnic wars and massacres taking place around the world, the only participant in the one that gets daily critical attention especially on this Forum is  Israel and specifically Netanyahu.This must be put down to antisemitism.If this is not the case perhaps Messrs Carter, Ainsworth, Brigo and MSs Carter, Bond and Holliday could explain.The UN is a costly joke regarding this issue.Obviously it is also driven by antisemitism as is proven by the actions of its 'relief' body UNRWA - 'From Philippe Lazzarini, UNRWA Commissioner-General GENEVA/ AMMAN“I acknowledge the completion of the investigation by the Office of Internal Oversight Services (OIOS) into the serious allegations that 19  area UNRWA staff members in Gaza were involved in the abhorrent attacks of 7 October on southern Israel.“The allegations were brought to the Agency’s attention in January.  In close consultation with the United Nations Secretary-General (SG), I immediately terminated the contracts of the staff in question, in the interest of the Agency, while the SG tasked OIOS to launch an investigation.  Additional allegations were brought to our attention in March and April and the concerned staff were added to the OIOS investigation'. And as I have pointed out before the ICJ prosecutor regarding Israel and Netanyahu, a Mr Khan (sic) KC, is currently under investigation for sexual offences.BBC News - "The most senior prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (ICC), Karim Khan, has denied allegations of sexual misconduct and asked for an immediate investigation.In a statement, he announced that he had asked the ICC's watchdog, the Independent Oversight Mechanism (IOM), to conduct the investigation.He also said he had requested an inquiry into what he termed apparent "disinformation" related to the case.This move follows recent media reports which cited a document outlining accusations against Mr Khan. They are understood to include unwanted sexual touching and "abuse".

John Hawkes ● 37d

About the only thing I agree with, Ivonne, is that the war in Ukraine has all but been been forgotten. But why is that? Russia has killed over 100 000 Ukrainians, including 13 000 civilians, and abducted 20 000 children. Is the ICJ considering a case of genocide against Russia? No, just Israel. Has the ICC issued an arrest warrant against Putin? No, just Netanyahu. The international courts are thoroughly compromised, tainted by anti-Semitism.Guterres' remark that the massacre of October 7 'did not happen in a vacuum' was outrageous, the more so coming from the head of a humanitarian organisation, and I am shocked that you or anyone could think 'it did not miss the mark by much'. How can a pogrom involving rape, mutilation, torture, murder and the desecration of the dead possibly be regarded as an act of resistance to the blockade of Gaza?  Regarding the blockade, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. But instead of developing the territory, Hamas used it as a base to send rockets over the border in pursuit of their declared objective of destroying the State of Israel and exterminating its Jewish population (see the Hamas Charter, 1988). The blockade of Gaza, except for food and medicine, was a response to Hamas' strategy of diverting dual purpose materials to build tunnels. The population were trapped in Gaza because neither the  Egyptians nor the Israelis were prepared to allow murderous jihadis to enter their country.  Who can blame them? Even so, Israel granted 18 000 visas to Palestinians to work in Israel before October 7. Unfortunately some of them used their permits to reconnoitre the kibbutzim and guide Hamas to their targets.I am afraid that when the Palestinians voted for a genocidal group like Hamas in 2006, they signed a pact with the devil, just as the Germans did in 1933 when they voted for the Nazis. Israel has no choice but to eliminate the threat from Hamas, just as the Allies had no choice but to remove the Nazi menace.  No one wishes to see continued bloodshed and destruction in Gaza. But the solution is in the hands of Hamas. All they have to do is return the hostages and leave Gaza, allowing the civilian population to rebuild their lives under a moderate leadership prepared to coexist with Israel.

Steven Rose ● 38d

Hello Steven,Thank you for explaining where 'botched' came from. I could not identify where the article posted by Richard came from. But it is freedom of the speech, is it not?  You may think that the UN's SG's remarks were inappropriate but he did not miss the mark by that much.  Since 2007 Israel has controlled Gaza's airstrips, land borders and territorial waters as well as freedom of movement. Do you not think there would not be a reaction to this?  Do I support Hamas' attack?  Of course not, but am not surprised.  Think about keeping a 15 year old confined to his house for that long. What would happen?  For starters, the reaction would not take that long! The reason I mentioned who had organized the GHF stems from the fact that both want Gaza emptied of Palestinians (to create a Middle Eastern Riviera), not because it is anti-Israeli. You are almost saying that, if someone does not support Labour (or any other party in government for that matter), they are anti-British! Trump and Netanyahu could be supporting martians for all I care, the killing of civilian Palestinians, who are very much in Gaza, is highly reprehensible.  I think you mentioned not long ago that 30% of Palestinians supported Hamas - which means 70% do not!  The problem is that you cannot identify Hamas terrorists - they do not wear a uniform - in common with all terrorist organizations.  But I can tell you, hand in heart, that children do not understand all these comings-and-goings but they are being killed.I am not too sure that GHF have distributed millions of meals to hungry civilians; that is to be corroborated in the future.  But some Palestinians have been shot because "they were Hamas".  Where is the proof and/or evidence of this?  You keep critisising the UN and other aid agencies.  That is your prerrogative but they do specialize in aid distribution.  As a comparison, would you be prepared to be operated on by a trainee surgeon because the experienced surgeon disliked you?We can argue about this till the cows come home. What we should recognize is that somehow, the Russian-Ukraine war has been forgotten or ignored by all.  That is equally reprehensible!

Ivonne Holliday ● 38d

Ms Holliday'No, I do not like Hamas one iota but that does not translate that I do like the Israelis'Why do you not like Hamas ?Why do you not like the Israelis ?Is there any ethnic or political group you do have a good word to say for ?

John Hawkes ● 38d

Mr Ixer'I've not really  thought about this before but perhaps the change in ideas, attitudes, etc could be considered as differential and the embedding of ideas and prejudices as differential and integral calculus ... perhaps some have moved on at differing rates of views, etc and that determines the rate of integration of different cultures  ...  never thought about that before  - just a thought and point for (sensible) discussion.'Count me out on this one.My maths is not up to yours.Just A-level Maths and Further Maths and Times Tables !

John Hawkes ● 38d

Hi IvonneThe term ‘botched’ appears in the headline of the FT story reprinted by Richard in his post  near the beginning of this thread. The bias of the UN has been evident from the outset, demonstrated by the Secretary General’s inappropriate comment that the massacre of October 7 ‘did not happen in a vacuum’. Your explanation that the flaws in the relief effort of the GHF stem from the fact that the organisation is supported by Trump and Netanyahu exactly confirms my point. The opposition to the work of the GHF is based on the fact that  they are pro-Israeli. Their political affiliation should not matter. The important thing is that they have distributed millions of meals to hungry civilians. Rather than criticising them, the UN and other aid agencies should welcome the fact that  more food is coming in to Gaza, whatever the source.

Steven Rose ● 38d

Messes, Hawkes et al"Ah yes, the sins of 70+ years ago which excuse and explain what Iran is doing now."I've not really  thought about this before but perhaps the change in ideas, attitudes, etc could be considered as differential and the embedding of ideas and prejudices as differential and integral calculus ... perhaps some have moved on at differing rates of views, etc and that determines the rate of integration of different cultures  ...  never thought about that before  - just a thought and point for (sensible) discussion.

Michael Ixer ● 38d

Hello Steven,I have not heard that the GHF relief effort is 'botched' but it certainly has been unrealistic by opening 3 centres in the south and 1 in the centre of Gaza while the population was encouraged to move north.  One of the main principles of aid is that is is provided where it is needed, not where it is convenient for the provider(s).  The GHF has not even sought the assistance of the Red Cross or the Red Cresent who are experienced on these matters and, by the way, are independent of the UN.  Have you not heard - or know - of the International Humanitarian Law (IHL) and the four Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their Additional Protocols?You say:  "UN are a pro-Palestinian relief organisation who resent the presence of a pro-Israeli group with links to the Christian Right"....  Wow!!  The UN is big and it certainly is not just a relief organization!  You also demand concrete evidence that the GHF scheme is flawed.  For starters, it was "created" by two countries that want to see Gaza empty of Palestinians.  This has been said by both Netanyahu and Trump and has been widely reported in all media.  After stating: " [the GHF is a] pro-Israeli group with links to the Christian Right", are you sure you need more evidence?  I include below links to some articles you may care to read:https://www.npr.org/2025/06/05/nx-s1-5423324/doctor-says-many-he-operated-on-in-gaza-were-civilians-shot-while-trying-to-reach-aidhttps://www.cbsnews.com/news/gaza-humanitarian-foundation-ghf-breaching-rules-switzerland-authorities-say/https://abcnews.go.com/International/humanitarian-groups-heavily-criticize-new-aid-distribution-plan/story?id=122360739I reiterate what I said in a previous post:  "No, I do not like Hamas one iota but that does not translate that I do like the Israelis or, more to the point, their government."  I do feel sorry for the Palestinians and the Israelis but really dislike intensely Hamas and the Israeli government.

Ivonne Holliday ● 38d

Mr Hawkes,"sins of 70+ years ago which excuse and explain what Iran is doing now"I'm more interested in what is happening in the UK today.Gas and fuel installations now being destroyed on both sides.According to the pro-green and pro-war lobbies:          Such destruction has no impact on the climate (just like the Nord Pipeline).        It will have no impact on the number of refugees arriving on our shores.        It will have no impact on people fuel bills.        We will all be safer.The reality is the complete opposite and the participation of our government in the war will be forgotten just like the '53 coup.

Ed Robinson ● 38d

Mr Rose'And who has been foremost in criticising the GHF? The UN.  And why would they do that? Because the UN are a pro-Palestinian relief organisation who resent the presence of a pro-Israeli group with links to the Christian Right handing out food'.The facts seem to speak for themselves.But what is the UN other than a talking and propagandising shop where the vast majority of member states (most of whom we would describe as 'rogue' or at least malfunctioning) are rabidly anti-Israel, even anti-western.The UNRWA, involved in Palestine relief, itself admitted that some of its staff were involved in the October 2023 pogrom after Israeli accusations against the organisation, and fired nine of them.BBC News 29 October 2024"Why has the Knesset banned Unrwa now"?'After the 7 October Hamas attacks on Israel, allegations that some Unrwa staff were involved further amplified calls in Israel for the agency to be banned.The military claimed that in total, more than 450 Unrwa staff were members of "terrorist organisations". In the wake of the allegations, some 16 Western countries temporarily suspended funding for the aid agency.The UN investigated Israel’s claim and fired nine people, but it said Israel had not provided evidence for more allegations and Unrwa denied any wider involvement with Hamas'.

John Hawkes ● 38d

Mr Robinson'Let's not forget that Iran had a moderate democratic government in 1953 which was overthrown by the British and the US to keep oil profits'.Ah yes, the sins of 70+ years ago which excuse and explain what Iran is doing now.Or was the overthrow of the Shah of Iran in 1979 also a factor.'The Iranian revolution was the Shia Islamic revolution that replaced the secular monarchy of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi with a theocratic Islamic Republic led by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini'.Or one might blame the Ancient Greeks in 479 BC who went on the offensive, decisively defeating the Persian army at the Battle of Plataea, and ending the invasion of Greece by the Achaemenid Empire.The allied Greeks followed up their success by destroying the rest of the Persian fleet at the Battle of Mycale, before expelling Persian garrisons from Sestos (479 BC) and Byzantium (478 BC).

John Hawkes ● 38d

Mr Brigo'I couldn't stand to live in either of those countries, both have committed awful human rights violations.'Thought experiment.You are in a situation where you DO have to make a choice.Israel or Iran ?

John Hawkes ● 38d

My conclusion , Ivonne, is based on the fact that no actual evidence has been produced to suggest that the GHF relief effort is ‘botched’ other than that there have been firefights near the distribution points. In the absence of evidence it hard to attribute the criticism of the GHF to anything but prejudice. And who has been foremost in criticising the GHF? The UN.  And why would they do that? Because the UN are a pro-Palestinian relief organisation who resent the presence of a pro-Israeli group with links to the Christian Right handing out food. I may be wrong about this, of course. But I should like to see some concrete evidence that the GHF scheme is flawed.

Steven Rose ● 39d

Hello Steven,Yes, food aid is the same whoever distributes it.  The question must be do they have the know-how, experience and logistics.  Vehicles they all have. Countries have had to distribute aid to their citizens in case of natural disasters.  I would say the circumstances are very different.Of course we all agree that the food goes to the Palestinians and not Hamas.  The difficulty is how do you distinguish the one from the other?  The obvious answer would be the theft of food but it is also true that desperate people do desperate things.I do not think that the criticism of the GDF is based on right wing Christians in America (???????).  Fuelled by jealousy on the part of the UN....  Well, that may be your view but may I say that is utterly ridiculous! How did you get to that conclusion? 

Ivonne Holliday ● 39d

Nowhere near the middle east!I couldn't stand to live in either of those countries, both have committed awful human rights violations.

Michael Brigo ● 39d

Mr Brigo'70% of Israelis don’t trust government, including a third of coalition voters'In that case they will be voted out.Meanwhile in Tehran the mad mullahs will still be trying to make women wear Islamic not western dress; hunting down homosexuals; persecuting those that proselytize for Christianity; building up their nuclear weapons store in preparation for attacks on Israel and condemning dog owners.And the general population will have little or no say in these matters.Where would you prefer to live ?

John Hawkes ● 39d

"Why would the rest of the Israeli nation wish for a nuclear based WW3 ??"Who said they do? Not me!70% of Israelis don’t trust government, including a third of coalition votershttps://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-70-of-israelis-dont-trust-government-including-almost-half-of-coalition-voters/

Michael Brigo ● 39d

"..suggesting that they are secretly quite pleased that Israel is stopping Iran.."Some reports that the UK are actually participating in it with logistics, intelligence etc.Let's not forget that Iran had a moderate democratic government in 1953 which was overthrown by the British and the US to keep oil profits."UK and US governments backed Islamist forces to stir up unrest and even considered installing Ayatollah Kashani as a client leader following a coup"https://www.declassifieduk.org/iran-1953-mi6-plots-with-islamists-to-overthrow-democracy/

Ed Robinson ● 39d

Did you get a dictionary or not?

Michael Brigo ● 39d

Ms GrantExcellent.Spot on.All indisputable facts.'The fact that our Government, aka Starmer and Lammy, have voiced quite lily-livered statements, so perhaps they secretly are glad that Israel is doing the West's dirty work for them'.That is probably true of them both, but they are also the main players in a Government that has few principled positions in foreign affairs and who know there are more votes to be had in constituencies that have large Muslim populations than those in which the smaller number of UK Jews reside.

John Hawkes ● 39d

Hi YvonneMy aim was to question the narrative that the GHF scheme is ‘botched’. Food aid is the same whoever distributes it. The fact that there was gunfire at one of the GHF’s sites does not prove that there is anything wrong with the way they give out food. On the contrary, the GHF is trying to ensure that the food goes to civilians rather than Hamas, who have been stealing supplies and selling them on in order to finance their insurgency. The criticism of the GDF is based on their association with right wing Christians in America and is fuelled by jealousy on the part of the UN who see their monopoly of humanitarian aid threatened.StevenPSI agree with Lucille’s view that the comments from Keir Starmer and David Lammy have been rather half-hearted, suggesting that they are secretly quite pleased that Israel is stopping Iran from obtaining a nuclear capability.

Steven Rose ● 39d

Ms Holliday'that does not translate that I do like the Israelis'  Why is that ?Is it not a racist comment ?Am I allowed to say 'I don't like Palestinians' for I have read what Hamas has carried out and cannot find much condemnation of this coming from Palestine.

John Hawkes ● 39d

Mr Brigo'Israel seems determined to force it - just so the prime minister can keep his government together and therefore avoid going to prison on corruption charges.'That old chestnut.Why would the rest of the Israeli nation wish for a nuclear based WW3 ??

John Hawkes ● 39d

For those at the back who are still interested (including Messrs Brigo and Carter)in simple terms an answer to why Israel has taken its revenge on Iran now.Besides the fact that Iran is building its own nuclear bomb the regime there has vowed to destroy Israel for decades. It has no interest in a two state solution for Israel and Palestine, just to eradicate Israel. In order to do so it has funded and openly supported a number of proxies in the region, namely Hamas, Hizbollah and Houtis,for many years.  Iran is the biggest state sponsor of terrorism in the world and the British Secret Services know this all too well, having recently foiled a large Iranian plot here. This one has been reported. I wonder how many foiled terrorist plots go unreported? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c706wx05936oPeople who disagree with Israel's current stance are being naive. The fact that our Government, aka Starmer and Lammy, have voiced quite lily-livered statements, so perhaps they secretly are glad that Israel is doing the West's dirty work for them.Note - Israel's bombardment was precise, taking out military and nuclear experts, not specifically targeting highly populated civilian areas as Iran did in their retaliation yesterday.

Lucille Grant ● 39d

Mr Brigo'Go get yourself a dictionary.'Dog ate your homework ?!

John Hawkes ● 39d

Mr Brigo'I think you're wasting your breath i'm afraid Richard, Lucille and Mr Hawkes refuse to countenance anything that goes against IDF narrative'Ah diddums ! Why 'IDF narrative' implying that Israel is governed by its army and not its democratically elected Knesset which I am beginning to tire of repeating has Arab Palestinian electors and members.Just as you refuse to countenance any description of events in the Middle East that are not put out by the un-elected terrorist group Hamas, the Palestinians and now it seems Iran.We just have a different perspective on the situation and do  not both accept what seems to me to be factual, namely Israel was attacked by Hamas Palestinians in October 2023 and then retaliated.Perhaps in some circumstances excessively but it did not resort to murder, rape and kidnapping and nor is it using corpses as a bargaining chip.

John Hawkes ● 39d

Go get yourself a dictionary.

Michael Brigo ● 39d

Hello Steven,I agree with you that "in the chaos of conflict, it is not possible to determine the truth."  I think we are all aware of this.We are also aware that Israel does not allow foreign media into Gaza so, all the news we get, come from Palestinians or Israelis alone.  Therefore, they are all biased by definition.I also think that HGF has made life difficult for itself and there is no need for the UN to conduct a propaganda against them;  HGF have done it all by themselves. To get news from Gaza, I read a myriad of news media, not just British.  It is only by extracting common denominators, you know what is happening.  Be it the FT, Daily Mail, Al Jazeera, The Telegraph, The Guardian, Huffington Post - to name a few - they all incorporate the slant the wish.  But there are always parts of the information that is common to all.  I do not agree with you about: "If the Israelis wanted to fire on civilians queuing for food, they could equally well choose to fire at UN distribution points."  The fact that the Israelis have authorized three distribution points in the south of Gaza plus one in the centre.  There is starvation in Gaza and, when aid appears, of course the people will try to get their hands on it.  That does not mean they are all Hamas - do we have evidence of this?  I do not and very much doubt anybody does other thatn perhaps the hungry Palestinians trying to get food.No, I do not like Hamas one iota but that does not translate that I do like the Israelis or, more to the point, their government. By the way, satellite photography has shown the degree of devastation in Gaza.  I do not believe those satellites belong to Hamas or Israel.

Ivonne Holliday ● 39d

Mr Brigo'Hamas are murdering thugs/terrorists for sure. But I dont think they are fascists by the traditional definition?'Give me a definition where a fascist is not also a racist and in the main supports violence to get what he wants ?

John Hawkes ● 39d

Mr Carter"I'm sure some people in Gaza were kilkedby Hamas, but anyone unbiased would recognise that many were killed by the IDF'. Consider the report from Gaza in last weekend's FT: "Gaza's botched aid scheme ends in disaster." Pure victim shaming and gaslighting obfuscation.1) How many do you think were killed by Hamas and how many by the IDF that day in October 2023 ?2) What is the evidence for your claim that 'many were killed by the IDF' ?3) What do you mean by that loose term 'recognise' ?Is it 'choose to believe' ?4) What links reports of the October 2023 pogrom accepted as a true happening by the vast majority of the world's media with a report in one newspaper nearly eighteen months later claiming 'Gaza's botched aid scheme ends in disaster'.Good to see you back.Keep up your anti-semitic attacks for in a bizarre way their very ridiculousness and your desperation are comforting and prove how the majority of people, the decent ones, are on the right side of history.

John Hawkes ● 39d

In the chaos of conflict it is not possible to determine the truth. The fact that a number of Palestinians have told a Palestinian journalist who works for the FT that the Israelis have been shooting at civilians attempting to get food is not proof. Was Hamas absent from the scene? We are never told. That is because any Palestinian who talks about Hamas is likely to get himself killed.In any case this incident is clearly a part of a propaganda war conducted by the UN against the HGF, supported by the FT, as their headline 'Gaza's Botched Aid Scheme' demonstrates. There is no logical connection between the HGF aid scheme and  alleged misconduct by the  IDF. If the Israelis wanted to fire on civilians queuing for food, they could equally well choose to fire at UN distribution points.

Steven Rose ● 39d

It's not a religious thing, although not religious I have no issue with other religions.I just don't care about Israel in the same way that you don't care about Palestine. If you'd asked my two years ago I would have said something very different but now i'm afraid I see them as a rogue state. I don't want Israel to be destroyed, I just don't really care if it is - it got itself into this mess frankly. Equally I don't particularly care about Iran. As a parent of a late teenage boy though I would prefer to avoid WW3 and Israel seems determined to force it - just so the prime minister can keep his government together and therefore avoid going to prison on corruption charges.Also, Iran doesnt have nuclear weapons - Israel does - so we both know how this could end.

Michael Brigo ● 39d

Hamas are murdering thugs/terrorists for sure. But I dont think they are fascists by the traditional definition?

Michael Brigo ● 39d

Mr Brigo'they are acting like a rogue state.'If you mean Israel, then surely they are acting against the epitome of a rogue state namely Iran ?

John Hawkes ● 39d

Mr Brigo'Arab extremists are fascists?'How would you describe an Arab terrorist group like Hamas that in October 2023 committed a pogrom on Jewish women, children and the elderly and still hold many captive ?Humanitarian aid workers ?Or akin to Nazis ?No probably 'freedom fighters'.If they walk like a duck and swim like a duck and quack like a duck, I call that bird a duck.(Atributed to Indiana poet James Whitcomb Riley).

John Hawkes ● 39d

Mr Brigo'"Why don't you come out straight and tell us whether you would be quite happy if Iran itself annihilated Israel with atomic weapons rather than just use its proxies Hamas and Hezbollah""happy" - no"unbothered" - pretty much'.You make yourself quite clearly to be someone who, however much he might bang on about the plight of Palestinians, in fact has no concern about genocide and ethnic cleansing in overall terms.In a WWII context I take this to mean you would not have openly tried to join Hitler's Nazi coterie but would have been willing enough to man the gas chambers. Nice person.Any ethnic, religious or political groups in the UK you have your eye on now ?Jews obviously, but Muslims, Hindus, Afro-Caribbeans, white British ?

John Hawkes ● 39d

Sorry if you don't like it but i'm passed caring, they are acting like a rogue state.

Michael Brigo ● 39d

Arab extremists are fascists?

Michael Brigo ● 39d

Mr Brigo'I just suggested that she is unwilling to accept any contradicting viewpoint, at all. She simply puts her hands over her ears and goes la la la.I imagine the same as some German citizens did in WW2?'And why some (no names, no pack drill) do the same when it comes to defending Israel which, as in WWII, is still under attack by fascists; this time Islamist Arab extremists.And others (sometimes in in the same grouping as above) seem to defend Iran's right to have nuclear weapons that can only be used in such attacks.

John Hawkes ● 39d

""unbothered" - pretty much."No, that is completely wrong.

David Ainsworth ● 39d

I think you're wasting your breath i'm afraid Richard, Lucille and Mr Hawkes refuse to countenance anything that goes against IDF narrative.

Michael Brigo ● 39d

I should have explained, for those trying to navigate this thread's convoluted architecture, that the post was in response to Lucille's of 13/06/25 at 22:03:00.

Richard Carter ● 39d

I'm sure some people in Gaza were kilkedby Hamas, but anyone unbiased would recognise that many were killed by the IDF. Consider the report from Gaza in last weekend's FT: "Gaza's botched aid scheme ends in disaster." Its behind their paywall so I'll add a photo of the piece; you can read it by selectively enlarging column by column.The IDF tries to explain it by saying they fired "warning" or "additional" shots at people who, it said, had strayed  from the designated access route - like, presumably, Zaydan's mother when they and his sister, were lying down after gunfire had sounded. His mother started to stand up, only to be shot in the head by a sniper. Some warning shot, eh?

Richard Carter ● 39d

I just suggested that she is unwilling to accept any contradicting viewpoint, at all. She simply puts her hands over her ears and goes la la la.I imagine the same as some German citizens did in WW2?

Michael Brigo ● 39d

"Why don't you come out straight and tell us whether you would be quite happy if Iran itself annihilated Israel with atomic weapons rather than just use its proxies Hamas and Hezbollah""happy" - no"unbothered" - pretty much.

Michael Brigo ● 39d

Mr RoseWe know Brigo is rude, and that civilised, calm rational debate is beyond his intellectual capability.'Tom Fletcher, the UN Humanitarian Coordinator, whose criticism of the GHF is quoted at length, is the same Tom Fletcher who recently made the false claim that 14 000 babies in Gaza would die within 48 hours, a claim later withdrawn by the UN.''UN aid chief Tom Fletcher expressed regret for his recent claim that 14,000 babies could die within 48 hours in Gaza without aid - a claim the UN retracted - in an interview with the BBC on Friday.Fletcher acknowledged a need to be "precise" with language, admitting that when he made the comments, “we were desperately trying to get that aid in.”I wonder if he has apologised and what cushy, highly paid international relief operation he now works for.I assume his original anti-Israeli claim was sourced from Hamas.

John Hawkes ● 39d

Mr Brigo'LA LA LA LA Lucille!'About the most sensible comment you have made for a long, long time.

John Hawkes ● 39d

Ms Grant'If you (Brigo) believe everything that comes from the UN or the Hamas Health Ministry'.Of course he does.In the main the first and certainly the second organisation spew out anti-Israel invective which he thrives on.The 'Hamas Health Ministry' - what a joke.Hamas is a terrorist fighting organisation and if given a thermometer would probably try to load it into a Kalashnikov !

John Hawkes ● 39d

Mr Brigo'So the American/Israeli company created to replace the UN food distribution company has said that Hamas is killing Palestinians. Do you have any evidence that isnt a quote from the GHF?'More of your gaslighting diversionary bullsh1t.Why don't you come out straight and tell us whether you would be quite happy if Iran itself annihilated Israel with atomic weapons rather than just use its proxies Hamas and Hezbollah ?

John Hawkes ● 39d

Mr Wheeler'Do you honestly think the world will be a safer place if Iran has nuclear weapons?'Keep an eye open for those on this Forum that do !They won't be able to explain why because their rationale is that "anyone who is the enemy of my enemy (Israel) is my friend".And this describes Iran, a fascist, misogynistic, homophobic, theocratic dictatorship that even made a recent declaration that said "having and carrying a dog" was un-Islamic.So also anti-canine ! But read what the UN says.https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/06/1164291 "Atomic watchdog says Iran not complying with nuclear safeguards"'The UN-backed atomic watchdog passed a resolution on Thursday declaring that Iran is not complying with its obligations regarding nuclear non-proliferation.The development follows serious warnings from the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) earlier this week that inspectors have been unable to determine whether Iran’s nuclear programme was “exclusively peaceful” – as per the terms of the 2015 nuclear deal from which the United States subsequently withdrew.A fresh round of negotiations between Washington and Tehran is slated to begin on Saturday in Oman, according to news reports, amid heightened geopolitical tensions linked to rumours of an impending Israeli attack on Iran.Following Thursday’s resolution vote by the IAEA’s board of governors – which passed by a vote of 19 for, three against and 11 abstentions - Iran’s atomic energy body reportedly announced plans to open a new uranium enrichment plant and increase production of enriched fissile material.The draft for Thursday’s resolution highlights serious and growing concerns since at least 2019 that Iran had failed to cooperate fully with the UN agency’s inspectors.Tehran has “repeatedly” been unable to explain and demonstrate that its nuclear material was not being diverted for further enrichment for military use, the draft text maintains.Iran has also failed to provide the UN agency with “technically credible explanations for the presence of [man-made] uranium particles” at undeclared locations in Varamin, Marivan and Turquzabad, it continues.“Unfortunately, Iran has repeatedly either not answered, or not provided technically credible answers to, the agency’s questions,” IAEA chief Grossi said on Monday. “It has also sought to sanitize the locations, which has impeded Agency verification activities.”According to Mr. Grossi, Tehran has stockpiled 400 kilogrammes of highly enriched uranium.“Given the potential proliferation implications, the agency cannot ignore [this],” he told the UN agency’s governing board on Monday'.So perhaps Israel stepped in just in time before the mad mullahs unleashed this weaponry on them.

John Hawkes ● 39d

Really, Michael, do you have to be so rude to Lucille? Surely you can make your point without suggesting that people you disagree with are stupid or deliberately obtuse. As regards food distribution in Gaza, it is obvious that the criticism of the GHF by the UN and other pro-Palestinian aid organisations is politically motivated. The GHF is seen as a rival to their monopoly of humanitarian assistance. Tom Fletcher, the UN Humanitarian Coordinator, whose criticism of the GHF is quoted at length, is the same Tom Fletcher who recently made the false claim that 14 000 babies in Gaza would die within 48 hours, a claim later withdrawn by the UN.

Steven Rose ● 39d

LA LA LA LA Lucille!Have a nice weekend too though :)

Michael Brigo ● 39d

I read all the reports Mr Brigo and have never in my life put my hands over my ears and gone 'lalala'. If you believe everything that comes from the UN or the Hamas Health Ministry, then I can't help you. Have a nice weekend.

Lucille Grant ● 39d

So the American/Israeli company created to replace the UN food distribution company has said that Hamas is killing Palestinians. Do you have any evidence that isnt a quote from the GHF?All of the reference numbers from WIKI below go to reputable news sources such as the BBC, Sky News and Al Jazeera (who you quoted in your links so they must be fine) Fully appreciate you will just put your hands over your ears and go LA LA LA instead of actually reading it, but thought i'd give it a go!"The Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF) is an American organization, based in Delaware, established in February 2025 to distribute humanitarian aid during the ongoing Gaza humanitarian crisis.[1] Formerly led by executive director Jake Wood until his resignation on May 25, 2025, it has the backing of the Trump administration and the Israeli government. It has been criticised by the United Nations and humanitarian groups for politicizing aid distribution, with well-established humanitarian groups saying the GHF is giving cover for Israel to pursue its aims to depopulate Palestinians from Gaza, and its former head questioning the group's impartiality and neutrality upon his resignation.[2][3]As of June 12, 2025, more than 220 Palestinians have been killed by Israel while seeking aid from GHF sites.[4][5] Survivors of the repeated mass killings perpetrated at the distribution sites have begun to refer to the Israeli-backed operation as traps or death traps rather than aid.[6][7] The United Nations aid chief Tom Fletcher, raised doubts about the humanitarian aspect of the foundation and concerns about Israel's involvement and intentions. Fletcher called the foundation a "fig leaf for further violence and displacement" for Palestinians in Gaza and a "deliberate distraction" to the ongoing issues within Gaza due to the war.[8] Fletcher said that the plan makes aid conditional on Israel's political and military aims, and "makes starvation a bargaining chip". Executive director Jake Wood said that it is the only aid model with the approval of Israel. A UN official accused GHF of "weaponizing aid". A UNICEF spokesperson said of the GHF after repeated mass shooting of starving Palestinians at distribution sites that, "These are not humanitarians, they are people with guns."[48]

Michael Brigo ● 39d

Al Jazeera, Reuters, CNN, Washington Post, NBC, New York Times and Euronews all  reported this, as well BBC and Sky News here. All can be found with a quick internet search.Is that sufficient for you, Mr Brigo? Just because the Guardian omitted to report it doesn't mean it didn't happen, you know.Reuters Headline: Humanitarian workers killed in Gaza ambush plamed on Hamas - JERUSALEM/CAIRO, June 12 (Reuters) - At least eight Palestinians who worked for the U.S-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation died in an ambush, the GHF said on Thursday, blaming Hamas militants for the killings that rocked the troubled food distribution operation.A bus carrying about two dozen GHF workers was raked with gunfire on Wednesday night as it headed to an aid centre in southern Gaza, the foundation said, adding that many of its staff were injured and some might have been kidnapped.GHF's interim director, John Acree, said his organisation had considered closing its centres on Thursday because of the bus ambush, but in the end, opted to remain open."We decided that the best response to Hamas’ cowardly murderers was to keep delivering food for the people of Gaza who are counting on us," he said in a statement.Al Jazeera quotes the Gazan Humanitarian Foundation as follows:'In its statement, the foundation, which on Saturday reported that it had been unable to distribute aid due to Hamas threats, said the attack on its team “did not happen in a vacuum”.“For days, Hamas has openly threatened our team, our aid workers, and the civilians who receive aid from us. These threats were met with silence,” the foundation said.“Tonight the world must see this for what it is: an attack on humanity,” the foundation added. “We call on the international community to immediately condemn Hamas for this unprovoked attack and continued threat against our people simply trying to feed the Palestinian people.”'https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gr1rk5nvxohttps://news.sky.com/story/controversial-aid-distributer-claims-hamas-has-carried-out-deadly-attack-on-bus-carrying-palestinians-13382379

Lucille Grant ● 40d

Of course not. But the deal (that was working) was limiting Iran to 3%. Trump violated the deal and pulled the US out.That said, I don't particularly care about Iranian nuclear sites taking a battering, i'm just wary of where it may lead.

Michael Brigo ● 40d

I am not sure that everyone agreed the deal with Iran was working. On the BBC News this evening  it was explained that ten years ago Iran was enriching uranium to 3%, enough for civil purposes.  Now it is enriching uranium to 60%. The only purpose is to build a nuclear bomb.  Does anyone on the Forum want Iran to develop a nuclear capability?

Steven Rose ● 40d

"Hamas fired on its own people, some of whom died."Evidence?

Michael Brigo ● 40d

All part of the same war. Iran supplies Hamas and Hezbollah. The latter declared today that they wouldn't help Iran by sending their rockets into Israel.As to your point about Gazans being killed while trying to obtain supplies, Hamas fired on its own people, some of whom died.

Lucille Grant ● 40d

There was a deal in place years ago - that everyone agreed was working. And then Trump unilaterally pulled out of it in his first time.History is important.

Michael Brigo ● 40d

It is interesting that both Saudi Arabia and Jordan allowed Israeli planes to carry out this mission over their airspace.  The US emptied its embassy’s in the Middle East days ago so it was clear as soon as Iran/US talks collapsed something would happen.Do you honestly think the world will be a safer place if Iran has nuclear weapons?  Starmer hasn’t got long to keep sitting on the fence and you guys have to decide does Israel have the right to exist?  Gaza has been clearly an Iranian proxy war leading up to this conflict.

Robert