Forum Topic

Ms Bond'Gaza has often been referred to as a huge open prison.'By you I know, but by whom else ?Gaza was once part of Israel in the sense that it came under Israeli control during the Six-Day War in 1967, when Israeli forces captured the territory from Egypt after being invaded by it.1) Before that, Gaza was under British colonial rule and later occupied by Egypt.2) In 2005, Israel withdrew its military and settlers from Gaza, leaving it to be governed by the Palestinian Authority.3) Thus, while Gaza is not currently part of Israel, it has a complex history of control and occupation by Israel.4) After Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005, there was a period of turmoil followed by Hamas governance beginning in 2007.5) It was in January 2006 that the Palestinian territories held what turned out to be their last parliamentary elections. Hamas won a bare plurality of votes (44 percent to the more moderate Fatah party’s 41 percent) but, given the electoral system, a strong majority of seats (74 to 45). Neither party was keen on sharing power. Fighting broke out between the two. When a unity government was finally formed in June 2007, Hamas broke the deal, started murdering Fatah members, and, in the end, took total control of the Gaza Strip. Those who weren’t killed fled to the West Bank, and the territories have remained split ever since.6) 2006 was the last free election.Perhaps Gaza would be ruled by the Palestinians if Hamas put governance and societal development ahead of its declared objective to annihilate Israel and kill all Jews.'Israel restricts the movement of Palestinians within the Occupied Territories, between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, into Israel, and abroad'.Because of the stated attitudes and intentions of some Palestinians towards Israel this is not wholly unreasonable.None the less, there seem to be plenty of Palestinians in London if the turn out for their marches is any indicator

John Hawkes ● 51d

Re point 4) below."Is Hamas’s grip on Gaza weakening?"https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/hamas-is-losing-its-monopoly-on-gaza/'The emergence of Yasser Abu Shabab and his ‘Popular Forces’ militia in eastern Rafah has become an unexpected fault line in the shifting landscape of Gaza. In recent days, a flurry of claims, counterclaims, and raw facts has begun to seep through the fog of war. Cracks are appearing in Hamas’s once unchallenged grip, and new and uncertain dynamics are taking shape. Where these currents will lead is unclear'.What one might have expected.There is no 'Palestinian' collective and unified political strategy or plan.How could there be when elections are never allowed to take place.Just a series of Islamist tribal factions fighting for power and domination.Anti-Israelism is a cover behind which all hide.------------------------------------------------------------------Posted by: John HawkesDate/Time: 03/06/25 14:21:00Y/N1) Israel is a democratic state.(As of June 2024, the State of Israel is recognized as a sovereign state by 164 of the other 192 member states of the United Nations. The State of Israel was formally established by the Israeli Declaration of Independence on 14 May 1948, and was admitted to the United Nations (UN) as a full member state on 11 May 1949).2) As such it has the right to exist and defend itself from attack by those who do not recognise this UN resolution.3) Hamas is a terrorist organisation that is proscribed by the UK, supported by the theocratic dictatorship of Iran and has a Charter that calls for the annihilation of Israel and its Jewish citizens.4) Hamas has NO democratic mandate to rule Gaza or carry out attacks in that territory's name.5) In October 2023 Hamas invaded Israel.6) Hamas still holds women, children and the elderly as hostages from that attack as well as corpses of those it murdered.7) Hamas is using these hostages as bargaining chips as Israel moves in to obliterate both the organisation and whoever remains of its leadership.Please participate Messrs Ainsworth, Carter, Brigo and MSs Bond, Holliday and Carter.-----------------------------------------------------------

John Hawkes ● 51d

At last the grown ups are beginning to show a sense of reality regarding the Middle East conflict.Well done Starmer.From today's Guardian.'A planned conference in New York this month that supporters of Palestine had hoped would push western governments to recognise a Palestinian state has weakened its ambition and will instead hope to agree on steps towards recognition, diplomats have said.The change to the aims of the conference, due to be held between 17 and 20 June, marks a retreat from an earlier vision that it would mark a joint declaration of recognition of Palestine as a state by a large group of countries, including permanent UN security council members France and the UK.Emmanuel Macron, the French president and a co-sponsor of the three-day conference with Saudi Arabia event, has declared recognition of Palestine as “a moral duty and political requirement”, but French officials briefing their Israeli counterparts this week reassured them the conference will not be the moment for recognition.That is now seen as a prize that will emerge from other measures, including a permanent ceasefire in Gaza, the release of Israeli hostages, reform of the Palestinian Authority, economic reconstruction and a definitive end to Hamas’s rule in Gaza'.I fear this move by Macron that will not go down well in West Putney nor with the masked, balaclavered, Kalashnikov toting Palestinian bully boys.I wonder how the latter group will react to the impositions and obligations placed upon them ?

John Hawkes ● 54d

Mr RoseYou write ' I can understand why people, seeing the dreadful situation in Gaza, criticise Israel. But I am disappointed that those same critics are reluctant to answer important questions, such as, 'Do you support Israel's right to eliminate the threat from Hamas, and if you disagree with their campaign in Gaza, how do you suggest they eliminate the threat?'I believe you are too generous in your acceptance of understanding why some people 'seeing the dreadful situation in Gaza, criticise Israel'.Most, be they at the UN or in leafy West Putney, are not criticising Israel for the often extreme measures it has had to take following the attack by Hamas in October 2023.Their appearing to support the Palestinians simply for its supposed defensive stance against unwarranted attack by Israel, (even as they attempt to annihilate Israel and its Jewish citizens), and then further criticising Israel for its genuine defensive actions against a proven invasion, is just gaslighting cover for their anti-Israel beliefs.'Do you support Israel's right to eliminate the threat from Hamas, and if you disagree with their campaign in Gaza, how do you suggest they eliminate the threat?'The answer to the first question is obviously 'NO'.And as they do not see Hamas' campaign in Gaza as a threat, they do not see a need to eliminate it.Just as I am sure in the UK in WWII many did not see Nazi Germany as a threat, or if they did assumed Chamberlainite negotiation was all that was necessary to avert it rather than Churchillian fighting resistance.I think Israel is right to adopt the the latter approach as fascist, racist opponents such as Hamas will not be appeased by talk as annihilation of their enemy is their only goal.'I think there are two reasons for a reluctance to answer questions of this kind. One is that some people have somewhat unthinkingly adopted a pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli position and don't actually have an answer. When pressed, they come out with statements like, 'Of course I disapprove of the atrocity of October 7, but that doesn't give Israel the right to kill so many innocent people etc.' But there are others who don't actually agree with Israel's right to exist but are afraid to speak out for fear of being accused of anti-Semitism'.Your description of both groups of people is probably correct. But with all of the anti-Israel commentators on this site I detect no fear of them being wary of the accusation of anti-semitism.And for some the description could well be right.

John Hawkes ● 56d

I agree with Andy that the Israel-Palestine situation is virtually impossible to resolve, at least not to the satisfaction of both sides. The problem is that Zionism and Arab nationalism, having lain dormant for centuries, emerged at the same time around the beginning of the last century, with the result that both groups lay claim to the same piece of land. The situation was made worse by the Holocaust, which made the creation of a homeland where Jews would be free from persecution a necessity.It is also true that our debates on the Forum are not going to change the situation on the ground. It is unlikely that Hamas, even assuming they can get internet coverage in their tunnels, any more than Netanyahu's cabinet log on to Putney Forum.That does not mean that it is pointless to discuss the conflict. But it is no good if only our transmitters are working with the receivers disconnected. People have to be prepared to listen to arguments from the other side and if necessary to answer questions.I don't agree with Nicholas' view that John Hawkes' questions are a 'waste of time' because they 'exclude the rights of the Palestinian people'. A question cannot include or exclude anybody's rights. If Nicholas doesn't feel that a simple yes or no to the questions is adequate, there is nothing to stop him posting a more nuanced answer.I can understand why people, seeing the dreadful situation in Gaza, criticise Israel. But I am disappointed that those same critics are reluctant to answer important questions, such as, 'Do you support Israel's right to eliminate the threat from Hamas, and if you disagree with their campaign in Gaza, how do you suggest they eliminate the threat?'I think there are two reasons for a reluctance to answer questions of this kind. One is that some people have somewhat unthinkingly adopted a pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli position and don't actually have an answer. When pressed, they come out with statements like, 'Of course I disapprove of the atrocity of October 7, but that doesn't give Israel the right to kill so many innocent people etc.' But there are others who don't actually agree with Israel's right to exist but are afraid to speak out for fear of being accused of anti-Semitism.   

Steven Rose ● 57d

Mr Evans'I suggest that you have completely ignored the rights of the Palestinian people'.Then let me add a further question - Y/N ?8) Palestinians have a right to live in and govern Gaza and the West Bank as their homeland providing these territories are not used as bases for terrorist organisations intent on the annihilation of Israel and its Jewish citizens.NOTE - This was Israel's position, as detailed below, but which Hamas is and always has been, intent on wrecking because of its racist and genocidal attitude towards the Jews.'In 2005, Israel disengaged from the Gaza Strip by dismantling all 21 Israeli settlements there. As part of this process, four Israeli settlements in the West Bank were dismantled as well. The disengagement was executed unilaterally: Israeli authorities did not coordinate with the Palestinian National Authority (PNA) to facilitate an orderly transfer of administrative power following the withdrawal of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) from the Gaza Strip.Proposed by Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon in 2003 and adopted by the Cabinet in 2004, the strategy was officially approved by the Knesset as the Disengagement Plan Implementation Law in June 2004. A deadline was issued for August 15, 2005, after which the IDF began evicting all Israeli settlers who were refusing to accept government compensation packages in exchange for voluntarily vacating their homes in the Gaza Strip. By September 12, all Israeli residential buildings in the territory had been demolished and the 8,000+ Israeli settlers who inhabited them had been removed. The dismantlement of the four West Bank settlements was completed ten days later'.

John Hawkes ● 57d