Forum Topic

The Economist view of the Reform manifesto

In short, Farage might not outlast a lettuce eitherhttps://archive.is/20250508175732/https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/nigel-farages-economic-plans-are-a-disaster

Michael Brigo ● 80d38 Comments

Just had a quick look at the Daily Mail and government figures. I think the government figures are by nationality not place of birth.It looks as though the DM has added in census data which I believe includes country of birth. Not the same thing as nationality.For some nationalities the rate may be misleading.

Ed Robinson ● 74d

"Keir Starmer humiliated in Albania as he announces Rwanda-style 'hubs' to stop Channel migrants... only for Albanian PM to say they WON'T host one". - Mail Online.Not surprising that the Albanian Prime Minister was not keen on his country 'off-shoring' UK illegal immigrants.He might have to take back some of his own undesirable nationals who are also in this country !"The shocking rise of ruthless Albanian gangs who now control UK drug trade: Up to one in 36 men born in Balkan state but living here are in jail, according to first of its kind league table of criminals by nationality"https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14485991/Albanian-UK-criminals-nationality-data.html'Around one in every 36 Albanian men living in England and Wales are in jail, official data suggests.Almost 1,100 Albanians, including murderers, kingpins of the feared Balkan mafia which controls the UK drug market and rapists, were behind bars at the end of 2024. Just three were women'.Send them to Rwanda ?!

John Hawkes ● 74d

I am truly sorry and totally taken aback by your horrifying experience.  Such opposites!I wonder if it is a question of hospitals we were at.I had two hair-raising experiences and the NHS was fabulous both times.  The second one was when my son was born very prematurely.  Today he is a strapping and handsome man.I will always fight for the NHS tooth and nail - no doubt about it.I can understand that you are no fan of it, but I will always defend it - and perhaps start fighting for proper treatment at all hospitals.  I cannot understand why the agency worker from South Africa got into trouble.  It really does not make sense!

Ivonne Holliday ● 75d

Cancelling the Rawanda deal was pure political grand standings.Like any deterrent it was costly but it didn't cost £4 billion!

Ed Robinson ● 75d

Your experience of NHS care in hospital sounds wonderful Yvonne.  Mine at the Hammersmith was a nightmare with Caribbean and Indian staff who gave me medication the knew I was allergic to, pain killers they knew I didn't have the receptor for, then we're annoyed when I started projectile vomiting. Not one English person there except for the anaesthetist. The only person who took pity on me and gave me correct medication was an agency worker from south Africa and boy did she get in trouble for it.The NHS is not for me. Dismantle the whole rotten institution

Jenny Stone ● 75d

Ivonne,One of the reports I was reading was saying the pay is so low for social care that recruiting those from abroad with dependents was contributing to child poverty levels in the UK. Not something I had thought of.You can see where the government has got itself in a pickle.£29,000 is the minimum income to bring a spouse in the UK.£25,000 & £29,000 is now mentioned on the NHS employers website.£29,000 is Nurses Pay Band 4 with 3-4 years experience according to https://www.nurses.co.uk/careers-hub/nursing-pay-guide/ "Latest updates From 9 April 2025, care providers in England seeking to recruit care workers and senior care workers from overseas, or those switching from another visa route, must first provide proof that they have attempted to recruit a worker resident in England through working with regional partnerships. Minimum salary thresholds increased to £25,000 (£12.82 per hour), which applies to Skilled Worker and Health and Care visa holders on Agenda for Change pay scales. Deductions from a sponsored worker’s salary for business costs, immigration costs or business investment will need to be considered when determining salary thresholds. Certificate of Sponsorship fees increased to £525 for new work visas as well as renewals, and immigration and visa fees increased by 7 per cent. https://www.nhsemployers.org/articles/skilled-worker-health-and-care-visa

Ed Robinson ● 76d

Mr RoseIs it not somewhat confusing that Starmer, having realised that immigration is a key political issue, now seems to want to introduce a Conservative-like part solution to the problem."Keir Starmer humiliated in Albania as he announces Rwanda-style 'hubs' to stop Channel migrants... only for Albanian PM to say they WON'T host one". - Mail Online.Why does he not go back to the Conservative's original plan and negotiate with Rwanda itself ?He should get a sympathetic hearing as he is a 'beloved' Arsenal season ticket holder and one of their key sponsorship deals, as advertised on the team shirts, is one with the Rwandan government tourism initiative "Visit Rwanda".And I am sure the deportees would appreciate a club shirt signed by Starmer and their equally charmless manager Mikel Arteta.

John Hawkes ● 76d

Mr RoseSpot on'But my main criticism is that Michael Rosen was kicking an open door. No one is saying that Nigerians and Brazilians and other nationalities have not made a vital contribution to the NHS'.Gaslighting of course.If one takes the positive contribution immigrants have made to the NHs as an argument in favour of uncontrolled immigration one could take a reverse position.Namely the perception that immigration has increased the incidence of gang based violence, knife crime and even shootings on London's streets. 'Keir Starmer's point was about uncontrolled immigration'.Quite a few Forum posters seem all for such a policy.

John Hawkes ● 76d

Ms Carter'Of course immigration has to be controlled.'1) How ?2) Why ?3) What do you think is an appropriate number of allowed immigrants ?Apparently (accoording to BBC News) 'net migration - the number of people coming to the UK, minus the number leaving - was 728,000 in the year to June 2024, according to provisional figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS).That was a 20% drop from the number of people who came in the 12 months to June 2023. The newly revised total for that period was 906,000, far higher than the previous estimate of 740,000'.4) Do you think such numbers place a strain on our social and housing services to who have to cope with the ongoing effect to the detriment of the indigenous population ?5) Do you believe all immigrants are working for our common good in the NHS and Social Care services  ?6) Do you think mass immigration of those from cultures and religions that differ, sometimes widely, from those of the mass of the indigenous UK population might change the nature, possibly for the worse, of our society ?Oldham, Rotherham ? 7) Do you care ?8) Do you think that the majority of immigrants are here seeking sanctuary from some form of oppression ?9) Do you think that a nation state has a right to decide who enters it ?10) In one respect was Powell right. Have you read the BBC News item - "Leicester: Why the violent unrest was surprising to many" 24 September 2022.'For decades, Leicester had a reputation as a model for cohesion - but the recent unprecedented unrest between groups of Hindu and Muslim men has raised difficult questions for a place that prided itself on its multiculturalism.In the 1951 census, just 624 people with South Asian heritage were recorded as living in Leicester. Now, 70 years on, the city has one of the highest proportions of British South Asians'.I am sure many sometimes find themselves in situations that cause them to think of themselves '"strangers in their own country" as a result of migration'.Reference to a speech in 1968 on the issue by Powell (a politician I have no doubt the majority in this country cannot recall and know nothing about) is pure gaslighting.And please, let's not go on about the medical care given to Rosen as if all the NHS staff involved were non-white immigrants.Bit of a slap in the face for those that just happened to be white British.And I repeat - the poem is sentimental rubbish.

John Hawkes ● 76d

Good morning Ed,I totally agree with you - appropriate levels of pay in the NHS and retention of its staff is absolutely paramount. Sadly, we are in a society that values professional footballers (who earn between £100,000 and £400,000 a week) above nurses who help save lives and look after people when they are ill. Of course, they are both paid from different "purses", but the comparison is not far fetched.Also, I was led to believe in the 90s that the use of agency staff was in cases of emergency.  Now, it is par of the course which defeats the purpose and is ludicrous.

Ivonne Holliday ● 76d

I don't think that Enoch Powell's phrase 'strangers in their own land'  forbids the use of the word 'strangers'in  any political speech about immigration. Keir Starmer was aimply making the point, among other reasonable points, that uncontrolled immigration undermines social cohesion. Instead of a nation committed to the same democratic  values and speaking the same language there is a danger that Britain will become an amorphous mass of peoples who are strangers to one another. What is racist about that? The reference to Enoch Powell by John McDonnell and other Labour backbenchers is a hysterical overreaction.As to Michael Rosen, it is well known that he had a severe reaction to covid and almost died. But a dreadful personal experience does not necessarily inspire a good poem. In my opinion Michael Rosen's offering is more a political tract  chopped up into separate lines than a poem. I quite liked the lines 'how to walk with a stick, how to walk without a stick', but apart from that it strikes me as devoid of artistic merit. But my main criticism is that Michael Rosen was kicking an open door. No one is saying that Nigerians and Brazilians and other nationalities have not made a vital contribution to the NHS. Keir Starmer's point was about uncontrolled immigration.

Steven Rose ● 76d

Of course immigration has to be controlled. I should have made it clear that I am appalled by Starmer’s use of words: Island of Strangers.The remark has drawn criticism from Labour backbenchers, who have compared it to the late Conservative MP's inflammatory 1968 "Rivers of Blood" speech.In the speech, Mr Powell imagined a future multicultural Britain where the white population would find themselves "strangers in their own country" as a result of migration.Among those to make the comparison was the former shadow chancellor John McDonnell, who said on X that "Talk of an "island of strangers" shockingly echoes the divisive language of Enoch Powell".I disagree that Rosen’s poem is sentimental. He very nearly died of Covid but survived because of the care given to him by people who now might be regarded by some as strangers.

Jane Carter ● 77d

"Why do you think this is the case?"Ivonne, saddling trainee nurses with student debt and low pay leads to a shortage of staff putting more pressure on those that are staying.7 in 10 applicant applying to register to work outside the UK were Overseas-trained nurses.If you can not retain nurses recruited from overseas there is little point in just recruiting more. You need to retain the existing staff which will require more pay and fix the training issues."Registered nurses on average earn £25,653 (3) ($42,535) in the UK and $65,000 (4) (£39,201) in Australia"At the moment money is being wasted on agency fees and middle people.Fairy sure just repeating the same process and expecting a different outcome is a recognised condition. The current process has been repeated for decades.

Ed Robinson ● 77d

Some extracts from Keir Starmer's speech:'In 2023 (net immigration) reached nearly 1 million which is about the population of Birmingham, our second largest city. That's not control, it's chaos.''So when you have an immigration system that seems almost designed to permit abuse , that encourages businesses to bring in lower-paid workers rather than invest in our young people,  you're not championing growth,  you're not championing justice... You're actually contributing to the forces that are slowly pulling our country apart.''Migration is part of Britain's national identity ... I celebrate that ... But when people come to our country, they should also commit to integrate, to learning our language.'Can someone please explain what is wrong with Keir Starmer's speech. If, like Jane, you are 'appalled'by his words, do you think that net annual immigration of 1 million is sustainable? Do you think that businesses should continue to bring in pow paid workers from overseas rather than employing the millions of fit but economically inactive British citizens? Are you happy that 1 million immigrants to this country can't speak English?Michael Rosen's sentimental poem entirely misses the point. No one is denigrating the contribution made by immigrants to the NHS and other sectors of the economy. I am no fan of Keir Starmer, but what he is saying is that uncontrolled immigration puts undue strain on the infrastructure and undermines social cohesion. He is right, but it remains to be seen whether Labour can fix the problem.

Steven Rose ● 77d

Mr Wheeler'The majority of NHS staff are British nationality as shown by a quick google.  Hardly likely to have arrived on these shores as migrants'.And I presume the others working in the NHS who are not British have legitimate permission to reside and work in the UK.Let us also not forget that they are being paid to do what is asked of them and so this is a financial arrangement that is not only legal but satisfactory to both parties.

John Hawkes ● 77d

Hello Robert,My congratulations and hat off to your daughter!  She is one of those special and unique people who work at the NHS!!Immigration has been a sore subject for some time.  However, we must bear in mind that the vast majority of immigrants are legal immigrants, not boat people.And, among those legal immigrants, are people who come to work for the NHS.  Illegal immigration, on the other hand, is another matter altogether!

Ivonne Holliday ● 77d

Thank you Ivonne l am fully aware of the staff make up in the NHS with a daughter who is a breast cancer consultant and how badly managed the resources are.  However if you increase the number of people using the resources eg housing, schools, NHS it becomes a bottle that overflows.We have to stop the flow immediately of uncontrolled migration.

Robert Wheeler ● 77d

Hello Ed,Also, according to the Royal College of Nursing, in an article also dated November 2023:  "n England, patient demand has far outstripped modest growth of the NHS workforce. There are 43,339 roles unfilled in England’s registered nurse workforce now, compared to 43,452 in 2019.Since 2019, the patient waiting list for elective care has grown more than 4 times faster than the number of nurses recruited. Widespread regional variation across England also means there’s a postcode lottery for patient care, with some areas having significantly fewer nurses." I would also invite you to read this article from the British Medical Association dated April 2025.  It states:  "The NHS has long carried a stubbornly high number of unfilled vacancies, a problem that far predates the pandemic. As of September 2024, there were 107,865 vacancies in secondary care in England. Of these, 7,768 vacancies were medical, amounting to 4.9% of all medical posts."I invite you to read the information of recruitment of doctors in the UK, the average number of GPs per 1,000 inhabitants (and the table comparing this average with other countries).  There is the additional problem of nurses trained in the UK seeking posts in countries like Australia and New Zealand. Why do you think this is the case?

Ivonne Holliday ● 77d

"The NHS would collapse without migrants."Instead of paying middle people money simply increasing wages (along with free training) would address the recruitment shortage.There is no excuse for not training and employing within the UK.People will push the low wage argument at every opportunity, of course they do not call it that but that is what it is."It can cost up to £12,000 to recruit a Nurse from abroad, and repayment clauses are designed to recover the balance of recruitment costs incurred in the event that the Nurse coming from overseas doesn’t complete their contract."https://www.nurses.co.uk/blog/are-repayment-clauses-causing-retention-issues-for-international-nurses/"In 2022/23, over 12,000 UK-registered nurses applied for a CCPS in order to register outside the UK, more than double the number the year before and 4 times more than in 2018/19. Overseas-trained nurses, who first qualified outside the UK and the EU, accounted for 7 in 10 of these applicants in 2022/23."https://www.health.org.uk/reports-and-analysis/briefings/nursing-locally-thinking-globally-uk-registered-nurses-and-their

Ed Robinson ● 77d

Hello Robert,Thank you for the article dated November 2023.Yes, the majority of NHS staff are British.  The very first paragraph of the article states: "Nearly one in five NHS staff in England report a nationality other than British. This briefing has statistics on the nationality of NHS staff for doctors, nurses and other groups, figures on EU nationals, and changes since the Brexit vote."I had a life-threatening illness in the early 2000s.  I can assure you that, at both hospitals I was at:- the consultants and doctors who attended me were mainly British;- most of the nurses were British - there was one Chinese that did not impress me much;- the majority of the cleaning staff were non-British; - the consultant in charge of my rehabilitation was Indian; and- the administrative staff were British.Except for the Chinese nurse I mentioned above, the staff were all very caring and lovely. I am talking out of personal experience, not hearsay. The moral of the story is: the NHS is not staffed 100% by British nationals.  All of the staff in the NHS, bar one or two exceptions, are fabulous.The most important things is not nationalities in the NHS, it is the care the patients receive.  This we must never forget!

Ivonne Holliday ● 77d

The majority of NHS workers are British nationals as confirmed by your own Government.https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7783/

Robert Wheeler ● 77d

But in 2023nearly 27 per cent of NHS nurses were from outside the UK (99,856 of the 372,605 nurses and health visitors recorded). The NHS would collapse without migrants.

Jane Carter ● 77d

The majority of NHS staff are British nationality as shown by a quick google.  Hardly likely to have arrived on these shores as migrants.

Robert Wheeler ● 77d

Thank you Jane, a lovely poem, very inspiring and a really true representation of NHS staff nationalities.  Yes, those people we rely on so much when we are very ill, who look after and care for us when we so need it.  Thank you!

Ivonne Holliday ● 77d

Well said Mr. Hawkes.  These are economic migrants not refugees.Neither main parties addressed or had a policy for integration into UK society thereby overwhelming hospitals, schools and housing.  Having just listened to the Justice Secretary nobody is addressing the need to get rid of foreign criminals immediately- don’t lock them up put them on a boat/plane and deport them immediately.Make ECHR work for us as other European countries do or leave it all together.

Robert Wheeler ● 77d

Ms CarterThis sentimentalism is not the basis for governing the country in a manner that satisfies both people like you who seem to have an 'open border' attitude to immigration and the effect it has on our society and traditional way of life, and those that do not.It begs the question that many immigrants, especially those arriving illegally in small boats, are not heart specialists, nurses or care workers but young males with no particular skills who just disappear into the fringes of society.Some home delivering Big Macs, others working for traffickers in the 'vital' nail bar, car wash  and cannabis growing sectors of our economy.Meanwhile we have millions of British people perfectly capable of taking on other menial work the immigrants do but would rather live on benefits.Those that do carry out tasks the British are unwilling or not skilled enough to take on are of course paid for what they do.And many immigrants, legal or not, come from countries that differ from ours in terms of language, religion and social norms making little or no effort to 'become British' in these respects but preferring to live in a micro-culture of their own.Hence at the extreme we have the Oldham child abuse scandals, ignored even now by the Labour Government for fear of causing 'racial offence'.So we end up with the much lauded by some 'multiculturalism' of Livingston and now Mayor Khan.This will radically change the country as we know it.And its good to see that Starmer has the guts to point it out as well as the fact that this societal change is not what many people want and are fearful of.You may think them bigoted but they have a right to hold such views and Starmer is wise to warn of the conflict these opposing views might generate. Oh and Rosen is a better leftist activist than he is a poet.

John Hawkes ● 77d

Many Labour MPs are appalled, as am I , at Starmer’s speech. Michael Rosen’s poem says it all.I lay in bedhardly able to breathebut there were people to sedate me,pump air into mecalm me down when I thrashed aroundhold my hand and reassure meplay me songs my family sent inturn me over to help my lungsshave me, wash me, feed mecheck my medicationperform the tracheostomypeople on this ‘island of strangers'from China, Jamaica, Brazil, IrelandIndia, USA, Nigeria and Greece.I sat on the edge of my bedand four people came witha frame and supported meor took me to a gymwhere they taught me howto walk between parallel barsor kick a balloonsat me in a wheel chairtaught me how to use the exercise bikehow to walk with a stickhow to walk without a stickpeople on this ‘island of strangers'from China, Jamaica, Brazil, IrelandIndia, USA, Nigeria and Greece.If ever you're in need as I wasmay you have an island of strangerslike I had.Michael Rosen.

Jane Carter ● 77d

You will find out, if they have the balls to do it.

Sue Hammond ● 79d

oooh who are they?

Michael Brigo ● 79d

Apologise to Farage?  Not a hope in h€ll ! Perhaps certain forum members who labelled me a racist for agreeing with Farage when I joined UKIP and the Brexit party years ago, might also like to apologise to me?  You know who you are ...

Sue Hammond ● 79d

Thank you. I am not sure that an analysis with ‘Nigel Truss’ above the diagram can be considered entirely objective but let us assume for the sake of argument that the tax cuts proposed by Reform are risky. But this is a manifesto that cannot be implemented until 2029, giving plenty of time for sensible adjustment in the light of future economic circumstances. In the meantime, as Andy Pike pointed out,  the operative economic plan is the one concocted by Rachel from Accounts, who has managed to slow growth (and reduce the potential tax take) by her misguided decision to increase employers NI contributions.But given the Prime Minister’s statement today, it seems that Reform has already won the argument on immigration. His speech , in which he warned of Britain becoming ‘ an island of strangers’, could almost have been written by Nigel Farage who has long argued that excessive immigration undermines social cohesion. Perhaps all those Labour MPs who used to denigrate Farage as a racist and a xenophobe would now like to apologise.

Steven Rose ● 79d

Michael Brigo ● 79d

I was unable to read the article in the ‘Economist’. What exactly  are the criticisms of Reform’s economic policy?

Steven Rose ● 80d

Sorry forgot to add that Labour got public money whilst in opposition to develop and publish policies.

Ed Robinson ● 80d

Looks like they took Reform's general election policies on taxation only.This was when the economy was growing and expected to continue by almost everyone. Since the Labour budget and the talking down of the economy that is no longer the case.To be fair it needs to be compared with Labour's manifesto at the same time.The IFS reviewed both. They weren't impressed with Labour's either:"This is a manifesto that promises a dizzying number of reviews and strategies to tackle some of the challenges facing the country. That is better than a shopping list of half-baked policy announcements. But delivering genuine change will almost certainly also require putting actual resources on the table. And Labour’s manifesto offers no indication that there is a plan for where the money would come from to finance this.”https://ifs.org.uk/articles/labour-party-manifesto-initial-responsehttps://ifs.org.uk/articles/reform-uk-manifesto-reactionhttps://ifs.org.uk/news/main-parties-manifestos-tell-us-little-about-funding-individual-public-services-would-actually

Ed Robinson ● 80d

Yes it's always fun to try and guess what might happen in 4/12 years time.  Whose opinion shall we seek next?  Mystic Meg?🙅🏻‍♀️

Sue Hammond ● 80d

An interesting and informative article. Thank you, Michael.

Jane Carter ● 80d

Have they a view on the disastrous real time budget of Rachel from accounts? Thsts the one we are living with.

Andy Pike ● 80d