Forum Topic

Two vile attacks in one day

-  In Eastern Ukraine, a Russian multiple ballistic rocket attack on the centre of Sumy killed at least 34 people and injured 117 more. 20 buildings were damaged, including four educational institutions, as well as cafes, shops and five apartment buildings. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g4262x4x1o-  In Gaza, the IDF air strike destroyed the intensive care and the surgery departments of the  Ahli Arab Hospital, the last fully functional hospital in Gaza City. Missiles hit a two-storey building. People, including some patients still in hospital beds, were filmed rushing away from the site.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjr7l123zy5oYou have to ask, what kind of people can commit outrages like this?

Richard Carter ● 108d57 Comments

Mr Carter,I note how the progressive left and your posting in particular will froth at the mouth in criticising Israel for 'apartheid based genocide' against the Palestinians whilst ignoring what is happening in Sudan. (Read thread specific to this conflict)The hypocrisy is gloriously exposed in this article."Greta Thunberg’s moral siege of Israel"https://www.spiked-online.com/2025/05/07/greta-thunbergs-moral-siege-of-israel/I thought this young person was an activist to 'save the planet'.So I must assume she believes Israel is contributing to its destruction more than any other country.

John Hawkes ● 83d

"Abbas calls Hamas 'sons of dogs' and demands release of Gaza hostages"https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g20pj6epvo'Mahmoud Abbas has called Hamas "sons of dogs" in a fiery speech in which he demanded the group release the hostages it is still holding, disarm, and hand over control of Gaza in order to end the war with Israel.The president of the Palestinian Authority told a meeting in the occupied West Bank that Hamas had given Israel "excuses" to continue its attacks on Gaza, and told it to "release the hostages and be done with it".The remarks were the strongest against the group that the president has delivered since the war began 18 months ago.(NOTE) A Hamas official condemned what he called Abbas's "derogatory language" towards "a significant proportion... of his own people".Whose side do you take Mr Carter ?

John Hawkes ● 94d

Steven,You seems to suggest that the UK can police the world when the reality of a safe space in Wandsworth is a 2mx2m gazebo outside Clapham junction weather and staff permitting.You also seem to suggest that the UK is in a fit state to take part in a war despite it not being able to secure it's borders.Now should I listen to the pro war lobbyist that was funded by these countries recently - that they now seem opposed to or should I make my own mind up?I think if the UK wants to take the European view then perhaps staying in the EU would have made sense.Equally if you do not want to take an anti US view then it's probably wasn't a good idea on spending all that money on a US nuclear deterrent.Personally I do not see any UK interests in various actions which seem to go against international law being it a greater Israel or the destruction of Yemen on the request of the Saudis.In short you are telling me that those that have taken foreign money and sold the UK short for decades now have the UKs interests at heart. I don't think so.Where was the preparation for this long anticipated war? What next, asking the Chinese to send us goods so we can go to war with them?The reality of the UK unless you have been asleep for decades is it can not even make it's own steel.Let's just remember it was Thatcher that imported Soviet coal to close the UK mines down which has had a direct impact on our energy securitySo now the Russians are bad Russians having been bad then good then bad ..The Afghans are bad having been bad, good then bad.The US are now bad having been bad then good now bad.The Europeans are now good having been good, bad now good.I could go on but forgive me in thinking perhaps it is the UKs view that is changing before going to war with whatever country whilst at the same time importing their energy!

Ed Robinson ● 97d

I  think your reference to Greenland and Iraq misses the point, Ed. You seem to think this is a debate about which country has the moral high ground. So to answer the accusation that Russia has illegally invaded Ukraine, you counter with America’s invasion of Iraq and threatened annexation of Greenland, suggesting that Russia and America are morally equivalent. I don’t think that is true, but that is not the point. The fact is that countries in Eastern Europe now fear intervention by Russia. That is why Finland after years of neutrality has now joined NATO. If Putin after capitulation by Ukraine is emboldened to seek territorial gains in other countries in order to fulfil his dream of reconstituting the Soviet Empire, what do you think will happen? There will be a war in Europe which could easily escalate into a nuclear conflict. That is why it is important to deter him now.

Steven Rose ● 97d

Taking views on what ideally should or shouldn't happen is irrelevant. Outcomes are the important thing.It's very hard to get an independent view of the war as many countries have a financial interest including the UK. As with the CIA or other security services they do not have a good record when it comes to transparency & honesty so I wouldn't put much weight on any of their opinion.A reminder too that the UK I believe is still importing Russian oil although it now comes via that new member of Opec, India.Europe is still importing Russia Gas. The US replacement for some of the market that Russia had also has its own problems."If Putin,for example, decides to invade Lithuania"What if the US invades Greenland?What if the UK invades Libya or Iraq?Obviously it's not the best idea to become economically dependent upon countries for decades and then wake up and decide we have to go to war with them.It is also not a good idea to invade countries willy nilly and then to expect the rest of the world to take international law seriously.https://energyandcleanair.org/march-2025-monthly-analysis-of-russian-fossil-fuel-exports-and-sanctions/

Ed Robinson ● 97d

The issue as I understand it is Zelensky can't unilaterally give away Ukraine territory, that would be unconstitutional. He'd need a referendum to allow that, which is impractical while the war continues. So a ceasefire as originally proposed and Zelensky agreed to in order that detailed discussions can take place is needed. Obviously,  with what Trump is doing in the US with his unconstitutional actions involving masked ICE police disappearing people off the streets and ignoring court orders to return them he might not understand that, he perhaps prefers Putin's way of operating according to some US reports ...

Michael Ixer ● 97d

I am not sure, Ed, that I accept your premise that Ukraine is losing the war. This is the view propagated  by Donald Trump, but is it true? The front line has changed very little since the war began. In the view of some commentators, including Richard Dearlove, former head of MI6, Russia can't afford to go throwing resources for more than a year. There is no reason for the Ukrainians to capitulate now. I realise that the human cost of the war is appalling. Almost a million people on both sides have been nkilled or injured. It would obviously be a good thing to end the conflict, but I don@t see why peace shoud be achieved at Ukraine's expense. There is also the wider issue of European security. If Putin succeeds in annexing large chunks of Ukraine on the grounds thatthe population is largely Russian speaking, what bis to stop him making political or even territorial claims on the Baltic states where many people are Russian speaking? If Putin,for example, decides to invade Lithuania in order to create a land bridge to the Kaliningrad enclave, which is not impossible, will you also take the view that Russia is too powerful an enemy to resist?

Steven Rose ● 97d

Apologies Steven I've mistakenly abbreviated your name.

Ed Robinson ● 97d

Steve,You seem to imply that Ukraine can win this war. Is this view shared by any military commentators?As I have previously stated - the longer the conflict goes on the more territory and people Ukraine will lose.Outcomes for any agreement are far worse than those that have been on the table previously. Oddly enough the same is true for Gaza.In short feeding the war will lead not only loss of territory and Ukrainian lives but also a lot of the EU/UK support is by way of loans. Which will mean more asset stripping and further depopulation when/if peace comes.

Ed Robinson ● 97d

Mr CarterAs regards Gaza, BBC News reports more growing discontent by civilians over the the actions of the big brave balaclavered blokes of Hamas.https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c175z14r8pro"Anti-Hamas protests on rise in Gaza as group's iron grip slips"'Public criticism of Hamas is rare, with protests violently dispersed and opponents jailed, tortured and killed - this protest took place in Beit Lahiya in northern Gaza on 26 March."Out! Out! Out!"The voice in the Telegram video is insistent. Loud. Sometimes musical.And the message unambiguous."All of Hamas, out!"On the streets of Gaza, more and more Palestinians are expressing open defiance against the armed group that's ruled the strip for almost 20 years.Many hold Hamas responsible for plunging the tiny, impoverished territory into the worst crisis faced by Palestinians in more than 70 years."Deliver the message," another crowd chants, as it surges through Gaza's devastated streets: "Hamas is garbage.""The world is deceived by the situation in the Gaza Strip," says Moumen al-Natour, a Gaza lawyer and former political prisoner who's long been a vocal critic of Hamas.Al-Natour spoke to us from the shattered remains of his city, the flimsy canvas side of the tent which now forms part of his house billowing behind him."The world thinks that Gaza is Hamas and Hamas is Gaza," he said. "We didn't choose Hamas and now Hamas is determined to rule Gaza and tie our fate to its own. Hamas must retreat. "Since Hamas took control of Gaza in 2007 by violently ousting political rivals, a year after winning national elections, there have been three major wars with Israel and two smaller conflicts."Humanity demands that we raise our voices," al-Natour said, "despite suppression by Hamas".Hamas may be busy fighting Israel, but it's not afraid to punish its critics.At the end of March, 22-year old Oday al-Rubai was abducted by armed gunmen from a refugee shelter in Gaza City.Hours later, his body was found covered in horrific wounds.The Palestinian Independent Commission for Human Rights said Oday had been tortured, calling his death "a grave violation of the right to life and an extrajudicial killing".Your thoughts ?

John Hawkes ● 97d

A phrase from the first Trump administration. Others consider it "a provable falsehood". If facts are unclear possibly better to say "a disputed fact", ideally with evidence? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_facts

Michael Ixer ● 105d

What is an alternative fact? Something is either factual or it's not there is no alternative to a fact.

Andy Pike ● 105d

Mr Rose'would it not be more straightforward to answer John Hawkes’ question directly?'Ms Bond has rarely if ever answered a direct question I have posed her.To be honest and perhaps a little ungallantly I have to say I don't think she has the intellectual ability to do so.Her speciality is obfuscation and gaslighting which require more cunning than intelligence. 

John Hawkes ● 105d

'https://ww2history.com/experts/Tami_Biddle/Churchill_s_response_to_Dresden'https://msbond.com/yet_more_irrelevant_comments

John Hawkes ● 105d

Ms Grant'Mr Brigo I think you'll find certain Middle Eastern states eg Iran enabled Hamas far more than Mr Netanyahu ever did.But don't let facts get in the way of your antipathy.'It's not only antipathy he displays nor ignorance  but a childlike delight in trying to provoke by making stupid comments.My primary school playground was full of such types making infantile comments.

John Hawkes ● 105d

Ms Grant'Perhaps  Hamas shouldn't have butchered, raped and taken Israeli (and other nationalities) hostages, Mr Brigo?'I doubt if he believes this actually happened.

John Hawkes ● 105d

Mr Brigo'Perhaps Netanyahu shouldnt have enabled Hamas?More victim shaming, gaslighting and bogus conspiracy theory trawled up during the hundreds of hours you must spend looking for it.(BTW Elvis is alive and living on the moon).It appears that according to you the actions of Hamas were instigated by Netanyahu.When are you going to admit that Hamas is a terrorist organisation determined to annihilate Israel and its Jewish citizens and take a stand for the 'good' in this conflict rather than keep banging on in support of the 'evil' ?It's not clever: just pathetic.

John Hawkes ● 105d

Ed, your words, ‘What we can do is not to make the situation worse’, imply that you wish to stop supplying arms to Ukraine. A ceasefire would be a good thing. But a decision to stop providing the Ukrainians with the means to defend themselves while Russia continues to attack will inevitably end with the defeat of Ukraine. Is that what you want?

Steven Rose ● 105d

The article says all you need to know. Whether you choose to believe alternative "facts" is up to you

Michael Brigo ● 105d

The UK is like Pontius Pilate - it has nothing to do with any of these atrocities.However the UK is actively supporting the Israeli government both militarily and politically.It has also extended the war in Ukraine and along with the West supplied cluster munitions and worse depleted uranium shells.Look no further than Serbia and Iraq to see the long term effects on the future generations.Realistically we can't fix the Israel/Palestine issue, nor can we fix the Ukraine/Russia issue though military means no more than we could fix Northern Ireland.What we can do is not to make the situation worse.Just to refresh people minds the UK rewards those that cover up, lie, deceive the public not to mention imprison & torture journalists.Perhaps if we fix our own country first we may be able to help others?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65032671

Ed Robinson ● 105d

Phillipa, rather than post a reference, would it not be more straightforward to answer John Hawkes’ question directly? Was Britain entitled to bomb Germany during the Second World War given the enormous number of civilian casualties caused by the air raids? Why is it that the Dam Busters raid, for example, which killed 1600 civilians, including 1000 Russian slave workers , is celebrated, with 34 of the returning air crew having received medals, while the Israelis, who give warnings to the civilian population in Gaza about imminent air raids, are accused of genocide? It would be interesting to hear your opinion.

Steven Rose ● 106d

https://ww2history.com/experts/Tami_Biddle/Churchill_s_response_to_Dresden

Philippa Bond ● 106d

Mr Brigo I think you'll find certain Middle Eastern states eg Iran enabled Hamas far more than Mr Netanyahu ever did.But don't let facts get in the way of your antipathy.

Lucille Grant ● 106d

If Netanyahu hadn't enabled them maybe they couldn't have?

Michael Brigo ● 106d

Perhaps  Hamas shouldn't have butchered, raped and taken Israeli (and other nationalities) hostages, Mr Brigo?

Lucille Grant ● 106d

Perhaps Netanyahu shouldnt have enabled Hamas?https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Michael Brigo ● 106d

And my response was mentioning that Gaza not being 'a 'featureless bit of desert' was that c.1950 when your first photo was taken, while under Egyptian ownership Gaza bloomed. Now under Hamas, not so much, as your recent photograph illustrates. Meanwhile Hamas scum flourish underneath Palestinian civilians being bombed by Israel.

Lucille Grant ● 106d

try reading the comment i already made before you posted yours. do keep up.

Michael Brigo ● 106d

'Mr Brigo that photo c.1950 was when Gaza was under Egyptian control'.Whoops Mr Brigo !Any comments for Ms Grant ?

John Hawkes ● 106d

Mr Rose'The Palestinians could have developed it economically but Hamas chose to construct an underground fortress to launch continual rocket attacks on Israel'.It often occurs to me that perhaps there must be something in the male Arab psyche that engenders self-pity and prefers fighting rather than putting any effort into economic development for the benefit of the general populace - whose opinions of course are never asked for.In complete contrast to the attitude of the Israelis.Perhaps it is because, living on the vast and profitable revenues of natural resources such as gas and oil they never had to.And even the extraction of these assets was generally carried out through the technological skill and resources of western, particularly American, corporations.

John Hawkes ● 106d

Ms Grant'Hamas hiding in its tunnels while civilians die above them'.Cowards.Then Hamas turn round in faux shock and horror and say how many Palestinian civilians have been killed in such circumstances.They never state how many were true non-combatant civilians and how many were Hamas terrorist fighters embedded amongst them.

John Hawkes ● 106d

Mr BrigoThank God for that.Under existential threat in a state of war any country has the right to take extreme measures to defend itself and destroy the enemy.That is what Israel is doing.We did so as part of our efforts to crush Nazi Germany when we bombed Dresden.Would you have objected to that ?

John Hawkes ● 106d

Gaza is not noted for it's natural beauty indeed.

Michael Brigo ● 106d

Mr Wheeler'They are also none to keen on Christians either putting us all back to the dark ages'.Spot on.I am uncertain if Hamas base their cause on a religion or whether they are just inadequate blokes who can't get a girlfriend and like carrying guns, wearing balaclavas and killing people. But the religion they are associated with and believed by most of their supporters (though not I assume by The West Putney Palestine Liberation Front) is an unreconstructed and unreformed one that has not moved on into the modern age since its formation in the 9th century.For example note its unprogressive attitudes towards the treatment of women and as well as sexuality and gender.In my view it is beginning to pose an extreme threat to western values and social norms.Not just in its acts of violence ('Manchester Arena bomber Hashem Abedi's horrifying assault on three prison officers last weekend') but also how it influences the behaviour of British institutions from the police to higher education.

John Hawkes ● 106d

Ms Holliday'On 7 October 2023, Hamas-led militant groups launched a surprise attack on Israel, in which 1,195 Israelis and foreign nationals, including 815 civilians, were killed, and 251 taken hostage with the stated goal of forcing Israel to release Palestinian prisoners."Who claims that this is true ?And do you think this was a civilised way of trying to achieve this objective ?Statements by anonymous contributors to Wikipedia need to be analysed carefully and in this case taken with a pinch of salt.For in truth Hamas' Charter gives a definitive understanding of their attitude towards Israel and its Jewish citizens (still haven't heard if you have read it yet ?).Annihilate Israel and its Jews.

John Hawkes ● 106d

Ms Grant'As for Richard comparing Russia's invasion of Ukraine with Israel's fight back against Hamas - words fail me'.Bearing in mind everyone knows his antipathy towards Israel and its Jewish citizens and his uncritical and unwavering support for the Palestinians and seemingly sometimes their terrorism, no one should be surprised by his comparison.

John Hawkes ● 106d

Gaza is not noted for its natural beauty, which Ivonne suggested is the reason why Israel invaded the territory and now wishes to annex it. I don't think this explanation is true. Israeli forces invaded Gaza in order to eliminate the threat from Hamas. Furthermore Netanyahu  has no desire to annex Gaza, only to create Israeli controlled buffer zones to ensure security.

Steven Rose ● 106d

and.....? My response was to the statement about Gaza being a featureless bit of desert.

Michael Brigo ● 107d

Robert,I was replying to Lucille Grant. No, I do not belive in Muslim Brotherhoold PR machine in the slightest.

Ivonne Holliday ● 107d

Mr Brigo that photo c.1950 was when Gaza was under Egyptian control.

Lucille Grant ● 107d

Ivonne you write “ The difference between an invasion and an attack is that Hamas did not try to control Israel in the same way that Russia has been doing with Ukraine since February 2022.”. No the difference is that Hamas want to destroy Israel eg Hamas aka Palestine declared open war on Israel.  Hamas has no interest in controlling Israeli’s it is not in their mandate which they clearly state, they want to kill all Jews.They are also none to keen on Christians either putting us all back to the dark ages.Please stop believing the Muslim Brotherhood PR machine.

Robert Wheeler ● 107d

Hello Lucille,Apologies, I did not mean to be so curt but friends arrived unexpectadly and I pressed submit by mistake.We talk about Hamas attacking Israel on 7 October 2023.  What they did was and continues to be totally unforgivable.  Please, do understand - and I have repeated this constantly - I do not defend nor condone Hamas by any stretch of the imagination! What I am saying is that Hamas attacked Israel on 7 October 2023 and carried out the most despicable and unforgivable acts.  It was a terrorist attack and not a prolonged and extensive military operation.  The difference between an invasion and an attack is that Hamas did not try to control Israel in the same way that Russia has been doing with Ukraine since February 2022. Was Israel right in repelling the terrorists?  Without a shadow of a doubt.But the subsequent attacks on Gaza by Israel have also been terryfing and equally unacceptable.  The photographs Michael Brigo posted today at 16:34hs about Rafah in 2021 and 2025 illustrate the point perfectly. It was decimated.  As you know, I disagree with Nethanyahu's policies and have done so for some time. Something you agreed with at one point well before the 7 October attack.How do you fight terrorism?  My goodness, an impossible question to answer.  I was brought up in my early teens in a country that had terrorism.  The difference there was that it was political terrorism and not based on religious differences.  Different times, different tactics but I survived an attack on a train I was travelling on (terrorists on one side and military on the other) as well as snippers on a building when I was in a taxi.  From what I experienced all those moons ago to what I am learning about the Gaza war now, I can say that neither side is totally wrong and neither side is a totally correct. Of course I cannot defend the attack of 7 October 2023.  Neither can I defend the decimation and destruction of Gaza.  I repeat myself, not all Palestinians that live in Gaza are part, followers or supporters of Hamas.  What Richard was trying to highlight is that attacks happened on Palm Sunday (beginning of Passover) both from Russia and Israel.  Both attacks were despicable, moreso in such important dates.  Nothing to do with the size of country or area. I hope I have explained myself properly.  Thank you.

Ivonne Holliday ● 107d

Featureless strip of desert, circa 1950

Michael Brigo ● 107d

Sorry Ivonne but what is your point? I'm more than well aware of what happened on 7/10/23. Hamas invaded Israeli territory to butcher and torture Israelis, while also taking living and dead civilians hostage. They could not have achieved this if they hadn't invaded. Wikipedia is inaccurate as is often the case and the invasion by Hamas was recorded by the terrorists themselves..

Lucille Grant ● 107d

Ivonne I don't know where you get the idea that Gaza is beautiful. It's a featureless strip of desert from which Israel unilaterally  withdrew in 2005. The Palestinians could have developed it economically but Hamas chose to construct an underground fortress to launch continual rocket attacks on Israel. Only a small minority of Israelis, mostly religious fanatics, want to annex the territory. What most Israelis want is security from future attacks. In Netanyahu's view this requires the elimination of Hamas as a military force and the creation of buffer zones: one on the border of Gaza and Egypt to prevent weapons being smuggled in and one between Gaza and Israel to stop assaults such as the pogrom of October 7.

Steven Rose ● 107d

Hello Lucille,"On 7 October 2023, Hamas-led militant groups launched a surprise attack on Israel, in which 1,195 Israelis and foreign nationals, including 815 civilians, were killed, and 251 taken hostage with the stated goal of forcing Israel to release Palestinian prisoners."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_war

Ivonne Holliday ● 107d

Hamas hiding in its tunnels while civilians die above them suggests a guerrilla type war. Where is western support for Palestinians rebelling against Hamas? None, so far as I can see.

Lucille Grant ● 107d

Uncalled for Ivonne. Israel WAS invaded on 7/10/23 but fought back and repelled the invaders back into Gaza. The area we are debating here is a fraction of the size of Ukraine! As for Richard comparing Russia's invasion of Ukraine with Israel's fight back against Hamas - words fail me.

Lucille Grant ● 107d

"There Are None As Blind As Those Who Will Not See".There is none as deaf as those who will not hear.

Ivonne Holliday ● 107d

"fighting a war for survival against this group" Well it seems like Israel just about has the upper hand?

Michael Brigo ● 107d

Ms Holliday'Hamas attacked Israel in October 2023 but did not invade it, at least not in the scale of Russia invading Ukraine'.How far into another country's territory constitutes an invasion ?If Nazi Germany has simply landed at Dover, killed, raped and kidnapped just a few British citizens and encroached no further, would this have denied the UK the right to fight to repel them ?'Israel has one of the strongest armies in the world and their intelligence is also very highly ranked.  They did admit, however, that they "dropped their guard down on 7 October 2023".Gaslighting and victim shaming again Ms Holliday."It's Israel's own fault".Totally irrelevant to the case against Hamas attacking Israel.'As far as I understand it, not many have been launched by Hamas recently'.How many do you think Hamas should have been allowed to launch before Israel had a right to respond ?I am glad Churchill was not in a position to need ask for your advice before planning to defend London against Nazi German V1 and V2 missiles. 'And there are some that wish Gaza to become the Riviera of the Middle East......'.Even you must know that this was a stupid plan from Trump which no one took seriously.On the other hand perhaps some Gazans might support this plan as at least it would give them some peace and more to the point a meaningful job.'not all Palestinians agree with Hamas'.Especially those that have Hamas terrorists living next door.And what actions are they taking to curtail their brutal activities ?I have not read much about such and how successful they have been.Perhaps they are waiting for the next Gazan General Election to express their views. 'while there is a clear victim in the Russia-Ukraine war, it is not so clear cut in the case of Israel and Gaza'.Says you !"There Are None As Blind As Those Who Will Not See".Just be honest and answer the questions I posted earlier.

John Hawkes ● 107d

Mr Wheeler'It infuriates me that posters cannot see the difference between two Sovereign states fighting for survival.  Ukraine was invaded by Russia, Israel was invaded by Hamas'.Most people can.It is only the anti-Israel/Jewish posters that claim to see a similarity: the faux condemnation of Russia (yet ignoring the genocide by Arabs in Sudan) giving them cover to maintain their continual attacks on Israel.Israel, unlike Russia viz a viz Ukraine, is under attack by a terrorist Palestinian organisation Hamas and is fighting a war for survival against this group which has the avowed aim  in its Charter of annihilating Israel and its Jewish citizens.Hamas, an organisation which, and I know repetition of this fact embarrasses and irks many anti-Israel/pro-Palestine fellow travellers, was responsible for the pogrom against Israel last October and still holds Israelis and Israeli corpses in its underground bunkers.And it is an organisation that has no qualms over imbedding its troops amongst civilians in hospitals and schools etc. with the obvious understanding that some will suffer as collateral damage in its war with Israel as the latter takes them on in its battle for survival.Such will of course gain sympathetic comment and support from the naïve and gullible who cannot see through the true aim of this Hamas tactic. Hamas let us not forget is also a UK government proscribed organisation - "A proscribed organisation is an organisation or group that is illegal to join or show support for, because it has been identified as being concerned in terrorism. Proscription is the banning of an organisation based on an assessment that it commits or participates in, prepares for, promotes or encourages, or is otherwise concerned in terrorism. Proscription sends a strong message that terrorist organisations are not tolerated in the UK and deters them from operating here".Something Mr Carter and his cohorts Ainsworth, Brigo and Holiday choose to ignore, in their fanatical hatred of Israel - perhaps at their peril ! Supposed concern for civilian casualties to my mind is bogus as little concern is ever shown for those that happen to be Jewish.Concern for Palestinian casualties is perhaps just propaganda fodder with no real concern for the civilian casualties, as I fear is true of the many anti-Israel posters on this Forum.Why don't the West Putney Palestinian Peoples' Front get to the point and spell out -1) if they believe Israel has the right to exist as an independent state within its internationally recognised borders ?2) if they believe it is legitimate for Hamas to continue to ignore this right and continue to attack them as has been happening for months ?4) if they believe Israel has a right to defend itself from such attacks ?4) if they have an understanding of what Hamas is fighting for, which if granted would cause it to stop attacking Israel ?5) if they think the tactic of Hamas to involve civilians in their means of warfare is legitimate and not a war crime ? I look forward to reading responses to the above as it will help me understand why they are so anti-Israel; verging even perhaps on demonstrating antisemitic sentiments.

John Hawkes ● 107d

Hello Robert,First and foremost, Hamas attacked Israel in October 2023 but did not invade it, at least not in the scale of Russia invading Ukraine.  Hamas attack has been, and continues to be, condemned by many on this Forum, including me - very vociferously! The issue of hostages is unforgivable.Israel has one of the strongest armies in the world and their intelligence is also very highly ranked.  They did admit, however, that they "dropped their guard down on 7 October 2023".Of course Israel wants the rockets stopped.  As far as I understand it, not many have been launched by Hamas recently.  I may be wrong.  But there have been many air raids by IsraelBut many Israelis wish to settle by the coast in Gaza as it is so beautiful....  And there are some that wish Gaza to become the Riviera of the Middle East......One thing I will also maintain very strongly is that Hamas is in Gaza but not all Palestinians agree with Hamas.  It is a bit like saying that all Northern Irish were part of the IRA. No!In Gaza, the level of destruction is horrific and, contrary to Ukraine where parts of its country have been invaded by Russia, Hamas has not invaded Israel.  Israel is destroying Gaza.  Since leaving Gaza in 2005, Israel has controlled the Strip and implemented an indefinite blockade of Gaza in 2007.  The current blockade prevents people and goods from freely entering or leaving the territory, leading to Gaza often being called an "open-air prison".  Egypt also imposed a blockade of Gaza in 2007.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_StripUkraine is fighting for survival because it was invaded and is a victim of aggression by Russia.So, in all, Ukraine has been invaded, Israel has not.  And, while there is a clear victim in the Russia-Ukraine war, it is not so clear cut in the case of Israel and Gaza.

Ivonne Holliday ● 107d

Ivonne my understanding is the last thing Israel wants is Gaza - it is a poison challis.  They want the rockets stopped and an acknowledgement that Israel can exist while Hamas along with many Palestinians are committed to Israel’s destruction.It infuriates me that posters cannot see the difference between two Sovereign states fighting for survival.  Ukraine was invaded by Russia, Israel was invaded by Hamas.  I wish everyone a peaceful Passover.

Robert Wheeler ● 107d

Good morning Richard,I agree with you, those attacks were horrific and unforgivable. To make matters worse, on Palm Sunday and the beginning of Passover. What Russia and Israel have in common is that the governments of both countries want to take over Ukraine and Gaza respectively.  Nothing justifies Russia's actions since February 2022.I have never, EVER, defended Hamas for its attack in Israel on 7 October 2023 by any stretch of the imagination.  But 18 months later, the destruction of Gaza is shocking and despicable.  I suppose the idea of a "Riviera" is too enticing for Israel.

Ivonne Holliday ● 107d

The implicit comparison between Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine and Israel's response to an appalling pogrom caused out by Hamas is unfair. As to the attack on the hospital on Gaza, the the result is tragic but the circumstances are not clear. If it is true, as Israel claims, that the hospital was being used as a shield by Hamas, then it loses its protected status under the laws of war. And generally there seems to be a lot of selective outrage concerning the conflict in Gaza. Israel is regularly condemned for  causing civilian casualties while Britain escapes criticism for similar actions (e.g. bombing ISIS in Syria, bombing Belgrade in the 1990s and the indiscriminate bombing of German cities in World War Two).

Steven Rose ● 107d

"You have to ask, what kind of people can commit outrages like this?"Perhaps countries where the citizens do not hold their governments to account on their foreign policy?The UK is involved in a number of conflicts around the globe which have resulted in high civilian casualties - including the two conflicts you mention.Perhaps those countries committing the atrocities you claim, looked at the UK and saw how those responsible for atrocities far worse were rewarded??

Ed Robinson ● 108d