Forum Topic

Gratuitous comparisons between Israel and the Nazis are unjust and offensive but they are not necessarily motivated by anti-Semitism. The motivation in my opinion in my opinion is largely political. The left have mostly abandoned socialism in favour of anti-racism, anti-elitism, anti-imperialism etc. Through this ideological lens they see the Palestinian as the victims of colonial oppression by the Israelis.  The main problem in maintaining this position is that Israel was itself the victim of an appalling pogrom on October 7 whose perpetrators promised to repeat the atrocity ‘again and again’. Any nation would be expected in these circumstance to eliminate the threat against its population. To counter this the strategy employed by left wing supporters of the Palestinian cause like Owen Jones is threefold. Firstly they attempt to downplay the events of October 7 by glossing over the ghastly details and insisting that the attack should be seen in the context of Israeli persecution of the Palestinians (‘the war didn’t begin on October 7’). Secondly they minimise the ongoing threat to Israel, arguing that Hamas are powerless to carry out the extermination of the Jewish population of Israel enjoined by their Covenant. And thirdly they try to suggest that in any case the Israelis are just as bad as Hamas by accusing them of genocide, an accusation which inevitably associates Israel with the crimes of the Nazis. But of course there is no evidence that Israel wishes or has ever attempted to exterminate the Palestinian nation. On the contrary, the IDF have tried to avoid civilian casualties as far as possible by giving advance warning of raids and moving non-combattants to safer areas. So they widen the meaning of the word genocide to include ethnic cleansing.as a form of cultural genocide. Unfortunately Trump’s absurd plan to turn Gaza into a beach resort, foolishly echoed by Netanyahu, lends weight to the conspiracy theory that Israel’s war aim has all along been to gain ‘lebensraum’ for its citizens at the expense of the Palestinians when the truth is that Israel simply wants security on its southern border.

Steven Rose ● 35d

Ms Bond'"Never Again" is embraced by many of all religions and races regarding all genocide everywhere but sadly there seem to be some who think it should only apply to them and their way of life'.'some who think it should only apply to them and their way of life'.Are you referring to the Jews in Israel ?They certainly have experienced genocide which makes them take extreme measures to protect themselves when threatened with annihilation by Hamas (declared openly in their Charter - please read it) and other Islamist groups.Would you not support that were you to be in their situation ?But you are right, their have been other genocides which of course in no way invalidates what Israel has suffered nor what it is doing to prevent such happening again.Most seem to have been carried out in Africa often by Arabic and thus Muslim groups.1) 'The Rapid Support Forces (RSF) of SUDAN and its allied Arab militias started to commit organized mass killings of Masalit civilians and also targeting other non-Arab communities around El Geneina during the Sudanese civil war (2023–present). The events included torture, rape, and looting and were described as the worst atrocities against civilians so far in the 2023 conflict in Sudan.'2) The Rohingya genocide is a series of ongoing persecutions and killings of the Muslim Rohingya people by the military of Myanmar. The genocide has consisted of two phases to date: the first was a military crackdown that occurred from October 2016 to January 2017, and the second has been occurring since August 2017.3) Widespread human rights violations by the Chinese Communist Party against Uyghurs and other Muslim minorities have often been characterized as genocide.4)Genocide of Ukrainians during the current Russo-Ukrainian War5) Genocide in Tigray6) The Iraqi Turkmen genocide refers to a series of killings, rapes, executions, expulsions, and sexual slavery of Iraqi Turkmen by the Islamic State.7) The Yazidi genocide was perpetrated by the Islamic State throughout Iraq and Syria between 2014 and 2017. It was characterized by massacres, genocidal rape, and forced conversions to Islam. Over a period of three years, Islamic State militants trafficked thousands of Yazidi women and girls and killed thousands of Yazidi men.8) The Darfur Sudan genocide is the systematic killing of ethnic Darfuri people which has occurred during the war in Darfur. The genocide, which is being carried out against the Fur, Masalit and Zaghawa ethnic groups9) The systematic extermination of the Bambuti pygmies by rebel forces in the Democratic Republic of the Congo10) Massacres of Hutus during the First Congo War11) Elements of the AFDL and the Rwandan Patriotic Army (RPA) systematically shelled numerous camps and committed massacres with light weapons. These early attacks killed 6,800–8,000 refugees and forced the repatriation of 500,000 – 700,000 refugees back to Rwanda12) The Rwandan Civil War. During this period of around 100 days, members of the Tutsi minority ethnic group, as well as some moderate Hutu and Twa, were killed by armed Hutu militias. Although the Constitution of Rwanda states that more than 1 million people perished in the genocide, the actual number of fatalities is unclear, and some estimates suggest that the real number killed was likely lower. The most widely accepted scholarly estimates are around 500,000 to 800,000 Tutsi deaths.13) The Armenian genocideThis was the systematic destruction of the Armenian people and identity in the Ottoman Empire during World War I. Spearheaded by the ruling Committee of Union and Progress (CUP), it was implemented primarily through the mass murder of around one million Armenians during death marches to the Syrian Desert and the forced Islamization of others, primarily women and children. carried out by the Young Turks, included massacres, forced deportations involving death marches, and mass starvation. It occurred concurrently with the Assyrian and Greek genocides; some scholars consider these to form a broader genocide targeting all of the Christians in Anatolia. Approximately 90% of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire were killed or expelled. The share of Christians in area within Turkey's current borders declined from 20-22% in 1914, or about 3.3.–3.6 million people, to around 3% in 1927.I could go on but you can read more about them onhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocidesI think the Guardian article and the continual depiction of the deaths in Gaza in Israel's defensive war as 'genocide' somewhat belittles the term.Please stop using it in this context.Further do you understand why the genocides described above received so little if any publicity and protest compared with the actions of Israel ?Geo-political hypocrisy or antisemitism ?

John Hawkes ● 35d

Mr RoseRe Mr Carter's comment you are right in both spelling out the lack of political reality of the suggestion it quotes and also calling out the gratuitous racist insult made in it. 'The proposal to send Palestinians to Sudan and Somalia is absurd. These countries would never accept  Palestinian refugees and have already rejected the idea. However the use of the word 'lebensraum' is uncalled for. It is possible to criticise Israeli policy in Gaza without making  gratuitous comparisons between Israel and the Nazis, which are both offensive and inaccurate'. However we all know from Mr Carter's comments and those of a few others on this Forum their attitudes to and opinions of Israel and the Jews.They verge towards the antisemitic but deviously just stop short of being made explicit.His use of the term lebensraum is just one such example as well as it being an attempt to demonstrate his intellect, albeit by using Wikepedia for little known terms.As usual he indulges in victim shaming and diversionary whatabotary.For some like him Israelis are Nazis !He chooses to forget of course that Hamas, the 'boy band' of so called freedom fighters he seems so much to admire initiated this current conflict last October, with its attack on Israeli and the killing, sexually assaulting and kidnapping of women, children and the elderly.Many are still held (see below) as are a stash of corpses.Forgets or thinks irrelevant or insignificant ? One just does not know.But to remind him of the hostage situation, the following is taken from today's AP.'Here are details on the hostages released:Total hostages captured on Oct. 7, 2023: 251Hostages taken before the Oct. 7 attack: 2 who entered Gaza in 2014 and 2015, and the bodies of 2 soldiers killed in the 2014 warHostages released in exchanges or other deals: 147, of whom 8 were dead. Bodies of hostages retrieved by Israeli troops: 41Hostages rescued alive: 8Hostages still in captivity: 59, of whom Israel believes 35 are dead.(NB We know that HAMAS has a stash of corpses some of whom were returned  with great publicity and fanfare just recently. Nice people !)The hostages still in captivity include:— 13 soldiers, of whom Israel has declared 9 to be dead— 5 non-Israelis ( 3 Thais, 1 Nepalese, 1 Tanzanian), of whom 2 (1 Thai and 1 Nepalese) are believed to still be aliveStill, on the brighter side on Tuesday morning Hamas claimed that Israel had killed four of its senior officials. It named them as Mahmoud Abu Watfa, the director-general of Hamas's Interior Ministry; Issam al-Da'alis, members of Hamas's political bureau; Ahmed Omar al-Hatta, a senior leader; and Bahjat Abu Sultan, responsible for Hamas's internal security apparatus.They can run but they cannot hide !___

John Hawkes ● 38d