Forum Topic

Now will people see Hamas and their supporters for what they really are?

Mr Hawkes posted a long thread yesterday that provoked just one response. Maybe it was just too long for most forum posters to read?I woke this morning to the news that Hamas has provoked Israel by sending a female body that is neither Shiri Bibas nor any other known hostage. I am not  only disgusted that Hamas and their supporters behave in such an inhumane manner (witness the handing over of bodies yesterday) but would like to point out  what some of us have said since the massacres of 7 October 2023 - Hamas (and it appears many Palestinians) do not want peace.So those of you blinded by so called peace marches for the past 15 months, think on that.You've all been hoodwinked.

Lucille Grant ● 40d114 Comments

Mr AinsworthYou respond to Mr rose thus - "The Nazis, as far as I am aware , didn’t rape or mutilate their victims before murdering them. Nor did they take photographs of themselves with severed heads and send the pics back home."But you don't want me to argue about these further comments'.Well, feel free to argue with me who also deplores your continual defending by whataboutary, victim shaming and diversionary gaslighting the actions of the 'brave Palestinian Hamas freedom fighters' in their actions to displace the Jews from their territory Israel.I wonder why that is ?But as you seem to be able to trawl out other people's posts from 2019, perhaps you can prove me wrong and repost some of yours that show any that approach unequivocal support and sympathy for Israel's plight and just a teensy weensy touch of criticism for the atrocities Hamas has perpetrated.Without the latter being retrospectively justified by the actions of GB 'imperialism', Balfour, the unacceptable actions of a few Jewish settlers, the rantings of extremist Israeli politicians.......

John Hawkes ● 29d

Mr Ainsworth'"On September 29-30, 1941, ... according to reports by the Einsatzgruppe to headquarters, 33,771 Jews were massacred in this two-day period [in Babi Yar, Kyiv]. This was one of the largest mass killings at an individual location during World War II. It was surpassed only by the massacre of 50,000 Jews at Odessa by German and Romanian units in October 1941 and by the two-day shooting operation Operation Harvest Festival in early November 1943, which claimed 42,000-43,000 Jewish victims."By this I assume you are saying that in the past at the hands of German Nazis the Jews suffered bigger pogroms than the one inflicted on it by Hamas fascists last October and thus should think themselves lucky.Am I correct in interpreting your post in this manner ?

John Hawkes ● 29d

"In any case I don’t want to get into a discussion over whose crimes were more obscene."And yet here you are carrying on discussing it. You further post "The Nazis, as far as I am aware , didn’t rape or mutilate their victims before murdering them. Nor did they take photographs of themselves with severed heads and send the pics back home."But you don't want me to argue about these further comments.

David Ainsworth ● 30d

I wasn’t actually thinking about the number of victims. The Nazis, as far as I am aware , didn’t rape or mutilate their victims before murdering them. Nor did they take photographs of themselves with severed heads and send the pics back home. But maybe I am wrong. In any case I don’t want to get into a discussion over whose crimes were more obscene.

Steven Rose ● 30d

Mr Rose, you write:-"Hamas ... carried out a dreadful pogrom on October 7 as bad if not worse than anything perpetrated by the Nazis."Yes, it was dreadful, but I think that you are factually mistaken in your comparison there.As Lucille Grant wrote here on 13/11/19:-"On September 29-30, 1941, ... according to reports by the Einsatzgruppe to headquarters, 33,771 Jews were massacred in this two-day period [in Babi Yar, Kyiv]. This was one of the largest mass killings at an individual location during World War II. It was surpassed only by the massacre of 50,000 Jews at Odessa by German and Romanian units in October 1941 and by the two-day shooting operation Operation Harvest Festival in early November 1943, which claimed 42,000-43,000 Jewish victims."

David Ainsworth ● 30d

Mr RoseBetween us you and I have made all of these points repeatedly in the past.It is only those that have a racial prejudice against Jews who refuse to engage with us on them.Yes - I'm afraid that the singling out of and accusing Israel and the Jews of racism, apartheid, genocide etc whilst ignoring all other countries and ethnic groups (eg China and many Middle Eastern and African countries) that are actively carrying on in this way IS founded on antisemitism.

John Hawkes ● 30d

Ms Bond'the different way in which they are treated in their own homeland'So you agree with me that the Palestinians do have a homeland.By that I mean Gaza and the West Bank.Is that your understanding as well ?

John Hawkes ● 30d

Philippa, your implicit comparison of Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians with the Nazis’ persecution of the Jews betrays an appalling level of ignorance and prejudice.In the first place European Jewry offered no threat whatever to the Nazi regime, whereas Hamas deny Israel’s right to exist and carried out a dreadful pogrom on October 7 as bad if not worse than anything perpetrated by the Nazis.Secondly the Hamas Covenant actually advocates the obliteration of Israel and the extermination of its Jewish population whereas Israel has never advocated the genocide of the Palestinian people and has tried wherever possible to avoid civilian casualties in Gaza by giving advance warning of raids and moving people to safer areas.Your repeated accusation of genocide against Israel is simply an anti-S3mitic slur. Many nations conduct wars in which large numbers of people, both soldiers and civilians, are tragically killed, the war in Ukraine being an obvious example.  But the accusation of genocide is only levelled at Israel. Here is a question for you. In 1943 the RAF conducted an air raid on Hamburg in which over 40 000 civilians lost their lives, more than the number of civilians (as opposed to Hamas combattants) who have died in Gaza.  Would you say that Britain was guilty of genocide?

Steven Rose ● 30d

Apparently I am quite pedantic.But facts matter - to me at least

Michael Brigo ● 30d

Mr Hawkes - your refusal to see past your armchair at the way the Palestinians have been treated and the different way in which they are treated in their own homeland with restrictions on travel and othe freedoms enjoyed by other Israelis  - even from their home to the factory they own making life and living difficult reminds me of my FIL telling me how the German townsfolk living near the concentration camp that he and his colleagues liberated denied all knowledge of what was going on.They learnt a lot more when they were given a tour and had to bury the bodies.

Philippa Bond ● 30d

Ms Bond'The long and unremitting torture of the Palestinian people including breached human rights and apartheid being practised.Ridiculous hyperbole.Palestinian people are suffering because they are fighting  a war caused by their refusal to accept the right of the state of Israel to exist.And for also showing a complete indifference to putting their efforts and the wealth of their Arab allies and neighbours such as Saudi into the development of their recognised territory, namely the West Bank and Gaza. Do the Palestinians and other Arabs that live and vote in Israel where they have representatives in the Knesset complain of 'breached human rights and apartheid' or is it just certain westerners such as you who for some reason I aim loth to accept, cannot accept the reality of the state of Israel as a haven and homeland for the Jews ?

John Hawkes ● 30d

Mr Brigo'You said Hamas committed genocide - they have not.Had you said 'Hamas are genocidal' then I would have agreed with you'.Pedantry ?The have not carried out the genocide of the Jews, to which they are committed in their Charter, simply because of the defensive actions of Israel and the IDF.Though they did carry out a pogrom last October and still hold women, children and the elderly hostage (remember) plus  hoarding a stash of corpses to use to trade for the release of their terrorists legitimately imprisoned by Israel.You make a poor advocate for Hamas, relying as you do on word spinning rather than the presentation of evidence.

John Hawkes ● 30d

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/israelis-no-longer-blush-calls-palestinian-exterminationIsrael blockading aid to Gaza again in contravention of international law.

Philippa Bond ● 31d

...elicited some interesting replies...

Philippa Bond ● 31d

Israelis bulldozing Palestinian homes in the West Bank.  Not allowing them back for a year. 

Philippa Bond ● 31d

No. Mr Hawkes said it at 01/03/25 11:41:00

Michael Brigo ● 31d

It was me that said that and I was interrupted while posting.  I actually meant the genocide perpetrated on the Palestinian people whether or not they are members of Hamas. However it illicited some interesting replies.The long and unremitting torture of the Palestinian people including breached human rights and apartheid being practised is documented in the Btselem, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty websites to mention just three.

Philippa Bond ● 31d

You seem to have missed my point (yet again)You said Hamas committed genocide - they have not.Had you said 'Hamas are genocidal' then I would have agreed with you.

Michael Brigo ● 31d

Mr RoseThere is no need because anyone with any form of political perception and reads what this group stands for in its Charter and sees what barbaric acts it carries out will see it for what it is - 'a genocidal organisation'.It is only the antisemites, Palestinian and British, that close their eyes to this fact and give it support.More shame on them.

John Hawkes ● 31d

https://www.annefrank.org/en/topics/antisemitism/antisemitism-form-racism/

Philippa Bond ● 31d

I am astonished that there is any need to debate whether Hamas is a genocidal organisation. The Hamas Covenant of 1988 states the following:‘Israel will exist and will continue to exist until,Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.’‘The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him’. (Article 7)‘The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement  Day.’ (Article 11)‘Initiatives and so-called peaceful solutions are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement’. (Article 13).On October 7 2023 Hamas terrorists implemented their genocidal aims by embarking on a rampage of rape, mutilation and murder directed at almost 1000 civilians, including children, a pogrom which they promised to repeat ‘again and again’. On that day there was no distinction between ‘stating and doing’.How many Jews do Hamas need to murder before it is ok to accuse them of genocide? 5000? 10 000? 100 000? At the moment Hamas do not have have the ‘capacity’ to exterminate the whole Jewish population of Israel. Should the Israelis wait until they do?

Steven Rose ● 32d

Mr Carter'Indeed, and neither is confusing an aim with the total lack of capacity to carry it out'.I assume you are referring to Hamas' aim to annihilate Israel and the Jews living there ?They may not be capable of doing this in its entirety as they probably could not organise a kebab barbeque in a takeaway.However they can carry on randomly killing and perpetrating terrorism - that is unless Israel keeps its foot on their necks.

John Hawkes ● 32d

"FYI: Stating an aim is not the same as doing."Indeed, and neither is confusing an aim with the total lack of capacity to carry it out.

Richard Carter ● 32d

Mr Brigo'Ummm, have Hamas committed genocide? I think not, committed terrible crimes for sure but not actual genocide.FYI: Stating an aim is not the same as doing'.Thank you again for correcting me regarding the actions of the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas.However our friend Wiki states - 'Genocide is violence that targets individuals because of their membership of a group and aims at the destruction of a people'.Might you not agree that this describes the actions and intentions of Hamas ?My consolation, in which I am sure you will join me, is that so far they have failed.

John Hawkes ● 32d

"leading ultimately to the Hamas genocide"Ummm, have Hamas committed genocide? I think not, committed terrible crimes for sure but not actual genocide.FYI: Stating an aim is not the same as doing.

Michael Brigo ● 32d

Ms Bond'The assassination of Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Rabin who worked for peace, signed the Oslo Accords and was a Nobel Peace Prize winner is ignored.Why is that?  Is it because those who followed him into power were Jewish extremists who were not interested in peace and more interested in power?'Or because the Palestinians also ignored it leading ultimately to the Hamas genocide ?

John Hawkes ● 32d

Ms BondThis unfortunate event happened 30+ years ago.What has it to do with the terrorism Hamas are perpetrating today ?Why are you always taking the side of Hamas whilst being hypercritical of Israel in this conflict ?What has caused you to take such a one sided almost antisemitic position over it ?I hope you do not find this too personal and of course feel free not to answer.But did something happen in your private life that has made you so anti-Jew ?

John Hawkes ● 32d

'I wrote (under the heading "Trouble on the Channel - coming soon?"):-'Anyone have any idea what this post is all about other than trying to patronise people by suggesting they have no idea whoDavid Ben-Gurion was ?

John Hawkes ● 35d

Just the other day was the anniversary of the massacre at the cave of the patriarchs.https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2014/2/24/remembering-the-ibrahimi-mosque-massacreThere are extremists in all faiths.  The info on Yigal Amir is interesting.

Philippa Bond ● 35d

The assassination of Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Rabin who worked for peace, signed the Oslo Accords and was a Nobel Peace Prize winner is ignored.Why is that?  Is it because those who followed him into power were Jewish extremists who were not interested in peace and more interested in power?

Philippa Bond ● 35d

Michael, I think there are several parallels between Hamas and the Nazis:1) Both groups rose to power through an election, after which they murdered their political opponents and suppressed all dissent.2) Both are associated with a claim to remedy a historical injustice -  in the case of the Nazis it was the Treaty of Versailles and the war reparations imposed on Germany after the First World War, in the case of Hamas it is the creation of Israel on what they consider to be Muslim lands.3) Both are tainted with violent anti-Semitism of genocidal proportions.4) The Nazis enjoyed wide (though not universal) popular support, just as Hamas do.

Steven Rose ● 35d

"There must be negotiations for peace in the Gaza strip.  Who do you think, or suggest, should take part in the negotiations?"Well, in response to this paragraph last August:-"This conflict can only be restored by moderate Palestinians distancing themselves from Hamas and entering into serious and meaningful discussion and negotiation with Israel over how they can share this part of the Middle East."I wrote (under the heading "Trouble on the Channel - coming soon?"):-"Nope, moderate Palestinians are not respected by Israel. Meanwhile the land is whittled away by the illegal occupier. I cannot see any hope of a one-state solution (shared) nor a two-state solution (separate). With Israel backed by the USA, she cannot fail. The coming US election will make very little difference, whoever wins.The most likely result is a one state solution, basically an Israel between the river and the sea, with very few Palestinians remaining there.Where will the majority go?You may well ask."-------------------------------------“Every school child knows that there is no such thing in history as a final arrangement — not with regard to the regime, not with regard to borders, and not with regard to international agreements.”— Ben Gurion**, War Diaries, 12/03/1947 following Israel’s “acceptance” of the U.N. Partition of 11/29/1947 (Simha Flapan, “Birth of Israel.”)How would you feel as a member of the Palestinian majority?--------------------------------------**For the juveniles, if any:-"David Ben-Gurion; born David Grün, [born in Płońsk, Poland]; 16 October 1886 – 1 December 1973) was the primary national founder and first prime minister of the State of Israel." He was tougher than he looks.

David Ainsworth ● 35d

Mr Ainsworth'"like saying that the Nazis should have been part of postwar reconstruction of Germany"You mean that they weren't? What had happened to them all then?'As usual in an attempt at showing how clever/witty/smart you are you miss the point.The Nazi Party (equivalent to Hamas) was not involved in the reconstruction of Germany though doubtless individual Party members were.So of course a self elected genocidal and racist terrorist organisation like Hamas should not have any say in the reconstruction of Palestine and Israel as for a start it does not believe Israel should exist.Whether some individuals of good faith in its organisation, were such to exist, participate is another matter.

John Hawkes ● 35d

Talks are going on with Saudi Arabia, US and Israel.  Many Arab states have normalised relations with Israel.  However no Arab states will allow the Muslim Brotherhood (Hamas) which is why Palestinian refugees were not allowed initially into Egypt and Jordan.  One wonders why.  Hopefully Arabs can arrive at a solution that does not allow this hatred of Jews.

Robert Wheeler ● 35d

Ms Carter'It’s not a question of good v evil'.But in reality it is though.1) Israel wish to abide in the territory defined by the UN after WWII as the state of Israel.2) Hamas have a declared policy in their Charter of wishing to annihilate Israel and its Jewish citizens.How in simplistic terms of 'good' and 'evil' would YOU describe 1) and 2) above ?

John Hawkes ● 35d

Hello Steven,There must be negotiations for peace in the Gaza strip.  Who do you think, or suggest, should take part in the negotiations?  Israel and ..... ?  Is the Palestinian Authority relevant in the Gaza strip?  Or, in your view, should it be Trump and Netanyahu?

Ivonne Holliday ● 35d

My point, Steven, comparisons between the Nazi party in Germany and Mamas in Palestine are invalid.  

Michael Ixer ● 35d

After prosecuting the leading Nazis the Allies attempted a programme of denazification. This proved impractical since 10% of the German population i.e. 8 million people had been members of the Nazi Party. So it is true that a number of former Nazis rose to high office in postwar Germany. But these individuals no longer pursued Nazi ideals. Nazismas mo longer a political force. The German penal code specifically prohibits Holocaust denial and the dissemination of Nazi propaganda.  The situation in postwar Germany is very different from a proposal that Hamas as a party should be part of the future government of Gaza.

Steven Rose ● 35d

"like saying that the Nazis should have been part of postwar reconstruction of Germany"You mean that they weren't? What had happened to them all then?

David Ainsworth ● 36d

"I think many Palestinians believe their land has been taken from them and handed to Israel"And what do you think about that?"Is Netanyahu prepared to kill everyone in Gaza to eliminate Hamas?"No, he doesn't need to kill everyone, just a very large number. Or expel them, of course. Probably both. It is, after all, what has been done all round the world for centuries, and people from Europe have done it quite a lot. If you intend to settle somewhere and stay, it is what you do. And then you rewrite the history. Plant trees over the ruins.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples

David Ainsworth ● 36d

To say, Ivonne, that Hamas, a genocidal terrorist organisation, should be involved in the future government of Gaza is rather like like saying that the Nazis should have been part of postwar reconstruction of Germany or that ISIS should contribute to the new regime in Syria. In any case the Israelis will never allow Gaza to be governed by Hamas, who threaten the very existence of Israel.

Steven Rose ● 36d

Hello Steven,I think that somehow you have misunderstood my reply. Or, better said, I was not clear enough.I did say that you kill one Hamas (ISIS, AlQada, IRA, KKK, etc) terrorist and you create 10 more. That has been a reality all over the world.  But, religious terrorism is frightening as the believers or followers are narrow minded normally, may I say extremely uneducated? Or religious fanatics?As far as the Nazis are concerned, they lost in WWI and could not get over losing their empire.  The fight in WWII was centered against the Jews but that does not really explain why they invaded Poland, France, Greece etc.  I think it was mainly a desperate attempt to rule the world.But the latter is incredibly important as history has a habit of repeating itself.  Mainly, in the aspect of the need to rule the world or believing your race is superior or supreme.  Be it the Ottomans, Germay, the US, Russia or whichever country you chose.The other problem we have is that many people confuse Hamas with Palestinians which is a travesty of common sense.  Not all Palestinians follow, admire or belong to Hamas, in the same way that not all Germans were Nazis.  Sadly, in Gaza, you cannot exclude Hamas from peace negotiations because they "govern" Gaza.  But why is Israel now bombing the West Bank that has an elected government?I do not have an answer on how to solve the problem in Israel and Palestine as I am not a politician or diplomat. However, if common sense were to prevail, a two-state solution for Israel and Palestine is ideal.  But this is difficult as both of them wish to conquer the Middle East. 

Ivonne Holliday ● 36d

Ms Bond'This problem did NOT start on 7 October but the bombing of Gaza was obviously triggered by what happened that day.ON THAT DAY GAZAN PALESTINIANS INVADED ISRAEL, SEXUALLY ASSAULTED, MURDERED AND KIDNAPPED CHILDREN, WOMEN AND THE ELDERLY MANY STILL HELD HOSTAGE, AND RECENTLY RELEASED IN A SICK PUBLICITY STUNT A FEW ALONG WITH BODY PARTS OF THOSE MURDERED.The continuous infringement and curtailing of Palestinian human rights and freedoms (FREEDOMS TO DO WHAT ? INVADE ISRAEL AGAIN) and incursions onto their recognised legal home territory IF BY THIS YOU MEAN GAZA, THAT IS WHERE ISRAEL WAS INVADED FROM ! with so many being detained without charge for years can do nothing but antagonise. WHERE WERE THEY DETAINED AND UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES. PROBABLY THE LIKELY EXPECTATION THEY WOULD PARTICIPATE IN TERRORIST ATTACKS IN ISRAEL.IF THEY DON'T WANT TO SUFFER 'ANTAGONISM' THEY SHOULD PUT DOWN THEIR ARMS AND SHOW A COMMITTMENT TO DEVELOPING THEIR HOMELAND - GAZA AND THE WEST BANK RATHER THAN WAGING WAR.

John Hawkes ● 36d

Steven. I'm not sure Nazi Germany is quite comparable to Hamas and Palestine. I think most Germans were aware that they were taking over other countries in Europe and by the end of the war many had realised the position the Nazis had put them in and brought about Germany's demise - my understanding is the allies then occupied Germany and brought about a framework in which it could be rebuilt.I think many Palestinians believe their land has been taken from them and handed to Israel, even though Israel was set up with a UN mandate, and are willing to support Hamas because they believe they are the ones who might rectify that. Continual bombardment by the IDF appears to be driving Palestinians further towards Hamas. Is Netanyahu prepared to kill everyone in Gaza to eliminate Hamas?A messy situation. You might think the Palestinians are wrong but if that's their perception it's what needs to addressed, I personally doubt further action by the IDF will help in the long run. Trump and Netanyahu's plan to ride Gaza of the Palestinians and redevelop it isn't winning many friends in the Middle East except perhaps in Israel?

Michael Ixer ● 36d

Col Brigo'Were I a military planner i'm sure i'd have other options'.Start by getting out your lead soldiers - dressed in a uniform of balaclava and face mask and place them on a map of Gaza and Israel.Across a long border in Gaza are tens of thousands of such fighters who have already invaded your country Israel; all of them Islamist fanatics who are pledged to annihilate you and whose religion as I understand it makes martyrdom in these circumstances worthy of certain afterlife rewards.https://islamqa.org/hanafi/seekersguidance-hanafi/31643/72-virgins-for-martyrs-making-sense-of-one-of-the-rewards-of-paradise/'The basis of this particular reward, with the number 72, is a hadith narrated in the Sunan of Imam Tirmidhi, in which the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said:“The martyr has six unique traits: he is forgiven immediately; he sees his seat in Paradise and he is saved from the punishment of the grave; he is granted safety from the great terror [of the Day of Judgment]; a crown of honor is placed upon his head, a ruby of which is better than this life and all it contains; he is married to 72 maidens of Paradise; and he is allowed to intercede for 70 relatives.”What option would you take to resist such aggressors and defend yourself, your family and your country ?Face them on land where perhaps they are intermingled with the civilian population or use targeted bombing ?Don't forget you would not have to make this choice if your enemy stated it would not attack you.Answers on a postcard please addressed to 'IDF, Tel Aviv'.

John Hawkes ● 36d

I am sorry, Ivonne, but I was not sure how to reply to your post. My question asked what the Israelis should do differently in order to safeguard their citizens  from the threat of Hamas and your answer was that the threat of Hamas cannot be removed in the foreseeable future.You stated that history teaches us that ideological terror groups cannot be eliminated. Is that really true? The Nazis were a group of fanatics with a genocidal ideology who, like Hamas, gained power and enjoyed popular support. But once the Nazi regime was militarily defeated and their leaders arrested, Nazism was eliminated as a political force.  To take a more recent example, the threat from Isis has been effectively removed as a result of military action.I agree with you that Israel and the Palestinians need to strike a peace deal. But Hamas cannot be part of that deal. They are not interested in peace based on a two state solution. Their charter makes it clear that they seek the destruction of Israel and the extermination of its Jewish population. They have to be removed if there is to be peace.

Steven Rose ● 36d

It's odd that it doesn't seem at all strange to some on here that there are so many Palestinians imprisoned in Israel awaiting release as part of the exchange of those held.  The last large group who were supposed to be released when the most recent three hostages were released have not been.This problem did NOT start on 7 October but the bombing of Gaza was obviously triggered by what happened that day.  The continuous infringement and curtailing of Palestinian human rights and freedoms and incursions onto their recognised legal home territory with so many being detained without charge for years can do nothing but antagonise.   

Philippa Bond ● 36d

Steven,I replied to this question on another thread.  Sadly, you did not reply.

Ivonne Holliday ● 36d

"But I would like those who criticise the IDF to explain how they are supposed to deal with a 30 000 strong army of militants who use the civilian population as human shields."I would like to think that better minds than ours could come up with something other than just dropping massive bombs from above.Were I a military planner i'm sure i'd have other options.

Michael Brigo ● 36d

No one on the Forum, with one possible exception, has defended Hamas. Everyone agrees that what Hamas did on October 7 was unspeakably wicked. But quite a few posters have criticised Israel’ s campaign to remove the threat to their citizens posed by Hamas, a fanatical organisation dedicated to the destruction of Israel and the extermination of its Jewish population. To my mind that is like saying ‘I don’t support the Nazis’ but then opposing the war effort of the Allies to defeat Nazi Germany. Some posters have taken a more sophisticated position. They agree that Israel has a right to defend itself but criticise the way the Israelis have gone about it, wreaking death and destruction on Gaza. I agree that the situation of the civil population in Gaza is tragic. But I would like those who criticise the IDF to explain how they are supposed to deal with a 30 000 strong army of militants who use the civilian population as human shields.

Steven Rose ● 36d

I do not see posters on this topic ever coming to even a modicum level of agreement.There is a group with strong racial biases that see Arabic  Palestinians as an innocent yet unjustly oppressed group threatened with ethnic cleansing for no reason by Israel.There are indeed some who claim Hamas to be brave and morally upright defenders but no posters on this topic have done so. Likewise nobody on this forum has proposed the solution of the annihilation of the state of Israel. Making false accusations against other posters here is wrong and adds nothing to a constructive discussion

Jane Carter ● 36d

Ms Carter'"It also claim Hamas to be their brave and morally upright defenders.Their solution to the conflict is the annihilation of the state of Israel and its citizens".Not sure of the context in which these claims were made but certainly some claim Hamas to be their brave and morally upright defenders and even no doubt march on London streets in support.And the second sentence is correct as it is written and published in the Hamas Charter. I would hope that no one on this Forum would make such a claim on behalf of the terrorist group Hamas.Of course it is wrong to try to equate the deaths in terms of numbers, but the circumstances in which they happen can give some indication as to the relative bloodlust of the perpetrators.But what is legitimate is to analyse which group, Hamas or Israel initiated the circumstances that lead to the deaths.And who has the power to stop the fighting that might result in more: Hamas in my opinion.

John Hawkes ● 36d

Mr BrigoMy comment on the tens of thousands of Palestinians killed? (a number validated by both the IDF and NATO) ?An appalling yet preventable tragedy.Preventable by Hamas and other Palestinians ceasing to attack Israel, abducting its citizens and calling for its annihilation.And by giving Palestinians a vote as to whether they wish their 'government' to continue in this vein.And not embedding its fighters amongst the civilian Gazan population. https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/opinion/hamas-officials-admit-its-strategy-is-to-use-palestinian-civilians-as-human-shields/'An interviewer recently posed a logical question to Mousa Abu Marzouk, a senior member of the Hamas politburo: “Since you have built 500 kilometers of tunnels, why haven’t you built bomb shelters where civilians can hide during bombardments?”Abu Marzouk said the tunnels are “meant to protect us” from Israeli aircraft and facilitate attacks on Israeli targets.“Us” meaning Hamas. Not civilians'.You know as well as I do that this conflict could stop tomorrow if Hamas said it was ceasing its offensive against Israel and wished to negotiate a settlement that retracted its Charter that calls for the annihilation of Israel.Why do you think it does not do this ?Short direct answer please - no fudging or whataboutary.(If you can't answer perhaps Messrs Carter or Ainsworth can).You seem to relish the fighting that is occurring so far away from SW15 which you think is all the fault of one party - Israel.One might begin to consider that you suffer from a desire to be a brave freedom fighter by proxy !

John Hawkes ● 36d

It also claim Hamas to be their brave and morally upright defenders.Their solution to the conflict is the annihilation of the state of Israel and its citizens.Nobody here has made these claims. Reducing discussion to a series of personal accusations is counter productive. It’s not a question of good v evil. Once again, the 7 October massacre and the murder of the Bibas family is terrible as is the large number of children killed in Gaza. It’s not about equivalence either. However it’s easier to engage in the tragedy of one family than in vast numbers of unnamed deaths.

Jane Carter ● 36d

I thought you liked to be balanced? After all you are always asking us to condemn Hamas etcWhy no comment on the tens of thousands of Palestinians killed? (a number validated by both the IDF and NATO)Is it just because you simply do not care?

Michael Brigo ● 36d

I do not see posters on this topic ever coming to even a modicum level of agreement.There is a group with strong racial biases that see Arabic  Palestinians as an innocent yet unjustly oppressed group threatened with ethnic cleansing for no reason by Israel.It also claim Hamas to be their brave and morally upright defenders.Their solution to the conflict is the annihilation of the state of Israel and its citizens.Another group see Israel as a non-perfect but none the less thriving westernised political democracy run under the rule of law.Attributes that no one could claim applied to Gaza.Surprisingly many westerners benefiting from their residential advantages (eg Putney, UK) support the actions of Gazan Palestinians and have nothing positive to say in defence of Israel, its socio-economic achievements, what it stands for nor giving acknowledgment of what it has to do to survive.For what it is worth my views are summed up by this interesting and perceptive article by the ex-editor of 'Living Marxism' Brendan O'Neill.https://www.spiked-online.com/2025/02/20/the-death-of-the-bibas-family-is-a-stain-on-the-human-conscience/The closing summary is most pertinent regarding the overall situation and how leftist, western bien-pensants regard the matter.'The death of the Bibas family is a stain on the entire human conscience. An Islamist death cult came for a family of Jews and the self-styled virtuous of the West either said nothing or made excuses for it. Kfir’s short life and awful death is as much an indictment of our own civilisational disarray as it is of Hamas’s barbarism. It shows, too, why Israel must survive and flourish. Next time someone asks you why there needs to be a Jewish State, tell them it’s because there are people who are happy to kill a baby Jew and others who are happy to deface images of that baby Jew. It’s this hatred that makes Israel essential'.

John Hawkes ● 36d

"On the other hand perhaps in fact you are coming round to seeing how Trump's plan, were it to come about, might actually revive socially and economically the dire place that is Hamas ruled Gaza"There's you spouting off again about the benefits of ethnic cleansing.... (a quick reminder for you as I know you struggle to keep up: Trump has now said numerous time that the palestinians will not have a place in rebuilt Gaza)

Michael Brigo ● 37d

Ainsworth'I should point out that, as is doubtless obvious, I have no knowledge of forensic science'.Now that surprises me as I have always taken you for being someone who is an expert on pretty much everything.'Still, some day Trump will have a golf course there in restored Gaza'.Pity you had to spoil my increasing admiration of you by dropping in one of your so clever witticisms.On the other hand perhaps in fact you are coming round to seeing how Trump's plan, were it to come about, might actually revive socially and economically the dire place that is Hamas ruled Gaza.Trump International Golf Links, Scotland is a golf course in Balmedie, Aberdeenshire that seems to provide jobs and incomes for many local people in an area with not many other  opportunities; much like Gaza.Of course the SNP originally objected to this development, probably because Trump ("Och aye - vulgar wee man") was behind it.The inhabitants in Gaza will of course not have a vote on the go ahead of such a project in their homeland, a circumstances which I am sure Mr Ainsworth would loudly applaud.

John Hawkes ● 37d

"Hamas’s hostage shows evoke a haunting comparison"https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/hamass-hostage-shows-evoke-a-haunting-historical-comparison/An interesting article written by an African American Jew equating the spectacle of the release of Jewish hostages by Hamas with how black slaves were similarly treated in slave auctions prior to the US Civil War.How they were treated not as individual human beings but as a member of a race.

John Hawkes ● 37d

Mr Ainsworth"Presumably the forensic scientists of these countries will have the opportunity to give an objective assessment of the facts."YOU 'Are you sure? Surely, the bodies must have been quite well preserved if the Israeli forensic scientists could tell that they had been strangled and then hit with rocks, when they examined them forensically (and, we may assume, honestly) fifteen months after death. Plus, of course, that they had not died in an Israeli airstrike. That must also show that the Israelis knew exactly where all their bombs fell and who they killed.God help us.You have a smart arse answer for everything but still won't address the major issue itself.You must feel very pleased with yourself.

John Hawkes ● 37d

I should point out that, as is doubtless obvious, I have no knowledge of forensic science. The one thing that I have noticed is the reports of the vile smell and the health risks caused by the thousands of men, women and children buried under the rubble resulting from the Israeli bombing. It appears to happen quite quickly in the Middle East.Still, some day Trump will have a golf course there in restored Gaza.

David Ainsworth ● 37d

Mr Ainsworth'"Presumably the forensic scientists of these countries will have the opportunity to give an objective assessment of the facts."'Without the bodies, it might be difficult'.Why, don't Hamas remember where they dumped them ?

John Hawkes ● 37d

Mr Rose'In your post of 13.41 you wrote: ‘This opinion is published by the Israeli National Institute of Forensic Medicine …’ , suggesting that the figures emanating from Hamas had been confirmed by the Israelis. This was untrue. What is true is that the Institute have contradicted Hamas’ claim that the mother and two children were killed in an Israeli air raid. The Israelis have apparently sent evidence of this to their partners. Presumably the forensic scientists of these countries will have the opportunity to give an objective assessment.of the facts'.Objective assessment of facts is not what Ainsworth deals with.He knows the real facts !And anyway his posts give to me the impression that whatever these Jewish people suffered they probably deserved it for is what Israel is doing to Gazans much worse ?But I am of course more than willing to withdraw this statement if he can point out where I might be wrong with this opinion.

John Hawkes ● 37d

"I would imagine they don't have the usual morgue facilities that would freeze or chill bodies for long term storage... Hell, they could have ended this a lot sooner by releasing the hostages and not having to guess with body parts."Are you sure? Surely, the bodies must have been quite well preserved if the Israeli forensic scientists could tell that they had been strangled and then hit with rocks, when they examined them forensically (and, we may assume, honestly) fifteen months after death. Plus, of course, that they had not died in an Israeli airstrike. That must also show that the Israelis knew exactly where all their bombs fell and who they killed.

David Ainsworth ● 37d

Ainsworth'trustworthy independent confirmation'.Such as from whom ?

John Hawkes ● 37d

Mr Rose'I have looked, but I have not found any report stating that the casualties figures given by David Ainsworth have been endorsed by the Israeli Institute of Forensic Medicine, as he implied. What the Institute have confirmed is that an examination of the remains of Shiri Bibas and her children found ‘ no evidence of injuries caused by bombing’, contradicting Hamas’s claim that they were killed in an Israeli air raid. The Israelis have said that the two children had been killed by ‘bare hands’ and that they have sent evidence of this to their partners around the world'.Facts have little value in the racially prejudiced dream world of Ainsworth.

John Hawkes ● 37d

Mr Ainsworth'Forensic medicine is about establishing the causes of death'. I am not sure what I find more objectionable.Your defence of Hamas atrocities or your smart arse attitude towards correcting what other people write in order to deflect from addressing the real issue.

John Hawkes ● 37d

Mr Ainsworth,'The opinion is published by the Israeli National Institute of Forensic Medicine, a partisan source which should be neither believed  nor disbelieved but simply disregarded until an objective investigation can be carried out'.Wonderful; a classic; one of your best !The Israeli National Institute of Forensic Medicine is partisan but the Hamas/Gazan 'Health Ministry' you quote regarding Palestinian deaths following Israeli attacks is to believed ?Or the group that named all the dead Palestinian children ?Who do you suggest is competent to carry out an objective investigation: one you would accept unequivocally ?Reading your comments I am really beginning to doubt your rationality over this issue.I fear what little you might have had to start with is now swamped by anti-Israel and anti-Jewish racial hatred.

John Hawkes ● 37d

Mr Rose'Equating the murder by Hamas psychopaths of two abducted infants with the civilian casualties occurring when Israelis respond to Hamas militants firing from residential areas is liking comparing the murder of Jews in Nazi concentration camps with the casualties among German civilians caused by Allied air raids'.An obvious truism.But partisan supporters of Palestine (that is probably the kindest way they can be described) like Brigo, Ainsworth and Carter would not be capable of giving your comment any credence.To them, anything Hamas and their ilk do against Israel and Israelis is acceptable in the name of 'freedom fighting'.

John Hawkes ● 37d

I would imagine they don't have the usual morgue facilities that would freeze or chill bodies for long term storage... Hell, they could have ended this a lot sooner by releasing the hostages and not having to guess with body parts.

T Jones ● 37d

Mr Wheeler'They don’t just symbolise the brutality of Hamas. They also symbolise the apathy at best and complicity at worst of western liberal culture'.They also represent the rise and rise of antisemitism in the west and the UK.The rise can probably be correlated with the increase in the numbers of Islamists and those from Arabic territories now living in both places.

John Hawkes ● 37d

Mr Brigo'That's right, one of the Hamas terrorists said 'go onnnn give me a cheeky kiss goodbye'."Oooh you are a caution"Your comedy act would have gone down a bomb at Auschwitz.

John Hawkes ● 37d

Mr Brigo'you are still wrong about the three who were captured on the 7th October 23 and were clearly treated very well'.You know that for a fact ?How on earth can you justify as you do all the barbaric acts carried out by Hamas ?Do you revel in what has been inflicted systematically, up front and personal, by Hamas on Israeli women, children and the elderly ?Two short sentences please on why you are so supportive of them and so antipathetic towards Israelis ?I really am very interested as to how your mind works in this conflict.

John Hawkes ● 37d

Mr BrigoI know you have told us what a busy life you lead such that you do not have time to briefly (one or two sentences ?) divulge the content of the many links you post.But it is somewhat a counter productive way of trying to get your opinion across as I am sure that apart from Ms Bond and Messrs Carter and Ainsworth, no one bothers to click on them !I however did fall for your trick and all I can see is a Hamas propaganda video of the handover of Israeli captives."A traumatised Israeli hostage has today been seen kissing a Hamas fighter on the head as he and two other prisoners were handed over in an emotionally charged ceremony, hours after two more were given to Israeli officials".All Hamas captors wearing balaclavas, mask and carrying Kalashnikovs.Do you honestly think they were grateful to Hamas for what they had experienced ?Or were they somewhat traumatised and willing to do anything to appease the terrorists and get away from their vile and disgusting presence ?Also is it not true that treating prisoners of war in this way is against the Geneva Treaty ?Would you check for me when you have a second to spare.

John Hawkes ● 37d

'Do you really think it is appropriate to compare Palestinians detained on suspicion of plotting violent acts against Israel with a mother and two children (aged 4 years and 9 months) abducted from  their kibbutz and subsequently murdered?'Yes if you are pathologically inclined against Israel and can find no fault in actions carried out in support of the Palestinian cause.

John Hawkes ● 37d

Ms Bond'The Bibas family was kidnapped from their kibbutz and taken hostage and kept most probably in Gaza'. Er, sorry.We know this but it is gratifying to read you except the fact.

John Hawkes ● 37d

Mr Rose'Hamas must have known that the Israeli authorities would carry out DNA tests'.I doubt Hamas members are bright enough to reason in this way and in any case they just would not care.'And for  all their bravado Hamas militants are running scared right now'.I think so too or at least hope so now Trump is in play.With US Special Forces and the IDF on their tails they should be very, very scared.'I would be inclined to ascribe this dreadful incident to an error, though an error due to tHamas’ gross incompetence and their callous disregard for the individuals they have taken hostage'.Incompetence possibly as rational, strategic political thinking is not really up their street.Barbaric killing more their specialty.'callous disregard for the individuals they have taken hostage' seems to describe their actions more correctly.'As to Hamas’ claim, repeated by Richard, that the confusion occurred in the aftermath of an Israeli air strike, this is contradicted by Israeli pathologists who have concluded that the children were actually murdered by Hamas militants aka psychopaths using their bare hands'.True.As I posted on another thread earlier.Carter would disagree and find some obscure Arabic or fellow travelling web post to try to prove us both wrong.

John Hawkes ● 37d

Mr Wheeler'An honest mistake!  This poor family were taken while she was cooking lunch in her home.  It has been confirmed by the BBC that the children were brutally murdered'.Carter is not being played.He knows exactly what is going on yet seems reluctant to join in with the almost universal world wide condemnation.

John Hawkes ● 37d

Carter,You don't reply because you know you cannot justify your support for the Palestinians and their actions such as these and your antipathy towards Israel.An honest mistake ?Well yes possibly.If you are the type of person as to hoard body parts of the many hostages you have murdered then of course mistakes such as this can happen.You, I and many on this Forum  might all make such a mistake in such circumstances and when you have so many, one persons dismembered limb let's face it probably looks just like another's."No barbarity here.Move along please".

John Hawkes ● 37d

Ms GrantThese are not 'peace marches'.We should call them for what they are: pro-Palestine, anti-Israel, anti Jewish and in practice anti-semitic rallies.Many participants have not been hood winked at all.Their banners and slogan bearing bits of cardboard show no support or sympathy for Israel in this conflict.And you are right.Hamas, many Palestinians and their British fellow travellers do not want peace but 'victory' which means the annihilation of Israel and its citizens. 

John Hawkes ● 37d

Another dollop of whataboutary from Ms Bond.'it was an Israeli who murdered Yitzhak Rabin'.What does that have to do with the price of fish ?'What about all the thousands of other innocent people who have lost their lives and been buried under the rubble'? Did the Palestinians not expect retaliation when they invaded Israel last October ?Such things happen in war.Ask the Berliners.And whilst Trump's stated plan for Gaza is fantastical, it contains a mere glimmer of truth.Gaza and its occupants would be far better off living and working in a thriving 'Trumpian' leisure riviera than in any form of state that Hamas could or would offer them.Why is it not put to them in a vote to decide ?Oh, silly me.....

John Hawkes ● 37d

"In your post of 13.41 you wrote: ‘This opinion is published by the Israeli National Institute of Forensic Medicine …’ , suggesting that the figures emanating from Hamas had been confirmed by the Israelis. This was untrue. What is true is that the Institute have contradicted Hamas’ claim that the mother and two children were killed in an Israeli air raid. The Israelis have apparently sent evidence of this to their partners. Presumably the forensic scientists of these countries will have the opportunity to give an objective assessment.of the facts."The opinion to which I referred was the opinion on the deaths of the Bibi children published by the Israeli National Institute of Forensic Medicine. You were mistaken. I did not mention the casualty figures."Presumably the forensic scientists of these countries will have the opportunity to give an objective assessment of the facts." Without the bodies, it might be difficult.

David Ainsworth ● 38d

In your post of 13.41 you wrote: ‘This opinion is published by the Israeli National Institute of Forensic Medicine …’ , suggesting that the figures emanating from Hamas had been confirmed by the Israelis. This was untrue. What is true is that the Institute have contradicted Hamas’ claim that the mother and two children were killed in an Israeli air raid. The Israelis have apparently sent evidence of this to their partners. Presumably the forensic scientists of these countries will have the opportunity to give an objective assessment.of the facts.

Steven Rose ● 38d

"I have looked, but I have not found any report stating that the casualties figures given by David Ainsworth have been endorsed by the Israeli Institute of Forensic Medicine, as he implied."I did not imply that. I would not expect confirmation of casualty figures from a forensic medical instute."What the Institute have confirmed is that an examination of the remains of Shiri Bibas and her children found ‘ no evidence of injuries caused by bombing’, contradicting Hamas’s claim that they were killed in an Israeli air raid. The Israelis have said that the two children had been killed by ‘bare hands’ and that they have sent evidence of this to their partners around the world."So you should wait until there is trustworthy independent confirmation, as you prefer to do with the casualty figures.

David Ainsworth ● 38d

I have looked, but I have not found any report stating that the casualties figures given by David Ainsworth have been endorsed by the Israeli Institute of Forensic Medicine, as he implied. What the Institute have confirmed is that an examination of the remains of Shiri Bibas and her children found ‘ no evidence of injuries caused by bombing’, contradicting Hamas’s claim that they were killed in an Israeli air raid. The Israelis have said that the two children had been killed by ‘bare hands’ and that they have sent evidence of this to their partners around the world.

Steven Rose ● 38d

What I am suggesting is that information coming from a genocidal  terrorist organisation, who continue to deny that innocent civilians were raped, mutilated and killed on October 7, is unreliable.

Steven Rose ● 38d

This discussion would seem to open up a new avenue philosophical discussion.  If someone is dead is it irrelevant to them how they were killed or with what intention? They're dead, full stop, and, obviously, not able to participate in the debate as to how they were killed and whether it was justified can't be relevant to them? Of course, surviving relatives may have a view and I  suspect they will blame the killers irrespective of whether the killers believe the deat was justified or accidental? 

Michael Ixer ● 38d

Not me, no. Forensic medicine is about establishing the causes of death.  Perhaps you mean Mr Rose on the dead children of Gaza? He wrote:-"The figures published by Al Jazeera almost certainly come from the Hamas ‘Health Ministry’, a tainted source which should be neither believed  nor disbelieved but simply disregarded until an objective count can be compiled."He appears to be suggesting that (some of) these Palestinian children are not actually dead. Or, of course I may misunderstand, he may consider it an underestimate, having seen the massive destruction by the IDF.

David Ainsworth ● 38d

Are you saying that these children are not actually dead?

Robert Wheeler ● 38d

The opinion is published by the Israeli National Institute of Forensic Medicine, a partisan source which should be neither believed  nor disbelieved but simply disregarded until an objective investigation can be carried out.

David Ainsworth ● 38d

Equating the murder by Hamas psychopaths of two abducted infants with the civilian casualties occurring when Israelis respond to Hamas militants firing from residential areas is liking comparing the murder of Jews in Nazi concentration camps with the casualties among German civilians caused by Allied air raids.

Steven Rose ● 38d

In reality dropping bombs on kids and killing kids with your bare hands has the same result. It's just that for some reason people are willing to ignore Israel doing the first.

Michael Brigo ● 38d

Kfir and Ariel Bibas didn’t get to grow up. They were murdered because they were Jewish. It wasn’t because of where they lived, but because they were living.  What is the meaning of the Bibas family? They don’t just symbolise the brutality of Hamas. They also symbolise the apathy at best and complicity at worst of western liberal culture.We are no longer surprised by the barbaric violence of Hamas. What has shocked and hurt the most is the abandonment by those we thought were our political or ideological allies who have remained silent. Those people who regularly raise their voices against global injustice and inequality.Cheeky kiss goodbye to a baby ……..

Robert Wheeler ● 39d

That's right, one of the Hamas terrorists said 'go onnnn give me a cheeky kiss goodbye'

Michael Brigo ● 39d

Perhaps the three you mention were just glad that they were finally going home. Perhaps they had been told by the terrorists to show the world how well they were treated. If you really believe that, I have no words for you.

Lucille Grant ● 39d

The two you listed yes but you are still wrong about the three who were captured on the 7th October 23 and were clearly treated very well."In unprecedented scenes, Omer Shem Tov, 22, was seen planting a kiss on the head of a gun-wielding masked terrorist at the baroque ceremony in Nuseirat, central Gaza, as he stood by fellow hostages Eliya Cohen, 27, and Omer Wenkert, 23. All three, who were seen laughing, smiling and waving at the gathered crowd, were abducted from the Nova festival during Hamas' deadly October 7 attack."

Michael Brigo ● 39d

Mr Brigo I am not 'believing what I want'. I read very widely about the situation, including news outlets that do not feature here in the UK. This particular article is available in the UK, however - the Jewish Chronicle.https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/who-are-the-six-hostages-set-to-be-released-on-saturday-kn53on4zThe pertinent paragraph reads: 'The group of six includes Avera Mengistu and Hisham al-Sayed, both of whom have been held by Hamas since entering Gaza on their own in 2014 and 2015.'

Lucille Grant ● 39d

"many years"? I'm not saying 16 months wasn't a long time but it doesn't count as 'many years' does it?They looked pretty happy but you are of course welcome to believe what you want.

Michael Brigo ● 39d

You've heard of Stockholm Syndrome surely? Two hostages released today have been captured in Gaza for many years and are only now being released. Hope that helps your understanding of the image.

Lucille Grant ● 39d

These ones clearly had a rough time of ithttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14423835/Hamas-six-Israeli-hostages-Palestinian-prisoners-Shiri-Babas.html

Michael Brigo ● 39d

Steven.  I'm not.  You are.  You don't have to have committed any act - or thought - to be detained.Not only that but Israel doesn't let any foreign journalists into the country in an attempt to control all reporting.

Philippa Bond ● 39d

Steven.  I'm not.  You are.  You don't have to have committed any act - or thought - to be detained.

Philippa Bond ● 39d

Philippa, you seem to have no filter. Do you really think it is appropriate to compare Palestinians detained on suspicion of plotting violent acts against Israel with a mother and two children (aged 4 years and 9 months) abducted from  their kibbutz and subsequently murdered?

Steven Rose ● 40d

The Bibas family was kidnapped from their kibbutz and taken hostage and kept most probably in Gaza. There are very many Palestinian prisoners still being held (and that does not necessarily mean criminals since long term detention without charge is common).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_the_Bibas_familyhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nir_Oz

Philippa Bond ● 40d

My personal opinion is that the failure by Hamas to release the remains of Shiri Bibas, horrendous as it must be for her family, probably was not deliberate. Hamas must have known that the Israeli authorities would carry out DNA tests. And for  all their bravado Hamas militants are running scared right now. I don’t believe they would purposely have jeopardised the ceasefire by such a provocative violation of its terms. So I would be inclined to ascribe this dreadful incident to an error, though an error due to tHamas’ gross incompetence and their callous disregard for the individuals they have taken hostage. As to Hamas’ claim, repeated by Richard, that the confusion occurred in the aftermath of an Israeli air strike, this is contradicted by Israeli pathologists who have concluded that the children were actually murdered by Hamas militants aka psychopaths using their bare hands.

Steven Rose ● 40d

An honest mistake? Really? To actually state such a dumb excuse leaves me aghast. But you're an apologist, Richard, and can't admit that you've been had by Hamas propaganda.

Lucille Grant ● 40d

An honest mistake!  This poor family were taken while she was cooking lunch in her home.  It has been confirmed by the BBC that the children were brutally murdered.  This was an invasion on October 7 no different from Ukraine but still you cannot see how you are being played by this saga.

Robert Wheeler ● 40d

Hawkes is always posting long tedious threads,  usually repeating the same tendentious stuff, so no wonder people have stopped bothering to engage with him.And distressing though sending the wrong body back to Israel undoubtedly was, did it not occur to you that this might have been an honest mistake? In the chaos wreaked by all the Israeli bombing it would hardly be surprising if body parts became mixed.

Richard Carter ● 40d

Well said Lucille.  If you don’t change young minds you have lost a nation.https://x.com/HenMazzig/status/1892632707147944410

Robert Wheeler ● 40d

Trust you Philippa with your whataboutery. Start your own thread of apologists for Hamas terrorism.

Lucille Grant ● 40d

How have you so quickly forgotten that it was an Israeli who murdered Yitzhak Rabin?  That was not so long ago.Israel has flattened Gaza. Trump now says that it is a demolition site that needs clearing and has handed over even more bombs whilst also declaring it a promising Gaza Riviera real estate site that he wants to buy.What about all the thousands of other innocent people who have lost their lives and been buried under the rubble?  Don't their lives count for any thought at all?

Philippa Bond ● 40d

Hoodwinked by hoping people stop killing each other, that's a new one.

Michael Brigo ● 40d

What words can express the horror at Hamas's brutality. Or convey the distress of the family concerned. Their nightmare began on Oct 7 and will continue for ever

Elizabeth Balsom ● 40d

I also heard the appalling news that a 10 mth old and a 4 yr old had been brutally murdered and witnessed this weaponising of coffins in Gaza and their mother was not in the other coffin.  Palestinians don’t want peace as they are training their children to hate Jews and Israel by broadcasting this. 

Robert Wheeler ● 40d