Forum Topic

Aeroplanes

Seems to have been an awful lot of plane crashes recently, or skidding or bursting into flames.

Barbara Stevens ● 101d20 Comments

Ed, as per my original post, we'd best wait for the official report. 

Michael Ixer ● 98d

"I don't think there's any evidence that ATCs were picked on a DEI basis irrespective of suitability? "There is plenty of evidence that Harris was and the failure of the Biden administration to appoint a FAA Administrator would not have helped the organisation.Difficult to know if DEI policies played a role in that delay as it is very difficult to get a non-partisan view.However what is clear is the lack of investment in US civil infrastructure and critical personnel.The same is true for the UK. Yet there is huge amounts of money sent abroad.The UK could definitely do with the equivalent of Trump's Dodge initiative especially given the recent HS2 Bat revelations.To bring the issue nearer to home:    How can we trust a government to increase air traffic when it can't even fix a bridge?"The FAA has lacked a Senate-confirmed administrator since March 2022. The agency is trying to reassure Americans that air travel is safe despite a surge in close calls between planes this year. It is also struggling with aging technology that failed in January, briefly canceling all takeoffs around the country. And it is still trying to repair its reputation after approving Boeing planes that crashed in 2018 and 2019."https://www.cbsnews.com/news/phillip-washington-faa-withdraws-name-from-consideration-biden-pick/Link behind a firewall unfortunately but it does use the word "typically".An extract given more details about the split below which include staffing levels."Usually, the duties of handling helicopter traffic and managing planes are divided from 10 a.m. to 9:30 p.m. at the airport, the Times reported. After 9:30 p.m., when traffic slows down, those duties may be combined."The person explained that the positions get combined regularly if air controllers have to step away from the console for breaks, or if they are involved in a shift change. Controllers may also have to step away when air traffic is slow, the person explained, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss internal procedures.Supervisors have the ability to combine roles, which was the case on Wednesday night, though the person familiar with the matter could not say why. When asked about the air traffic and previous reports of it being heavy on Wednesday night, the source said it was moderate."Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport has 25 Certified Professional Controllers and three Certified Professional Controllers in Training (CPC-ITs).  CPC-ITs were previously fully certified at other facilities. The tower is authorized to have 28 controllers," an FAA spokesperson said.https://www.yahoo.com/news/air-traffic-controller-left-early-221033750.html

Ed Robinson ● 99d

I expect the dwarves couldnt see the screen?

Michael Brigo ● 99d

Ed. Its in the "NYT":"Staffing at the air traffic control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic,” according to an internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration safety report about the collision that was reviewed by The New York Times.The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs typically are assigned to two controllers, rather than one.This increases the workload for the air traffic controller and can complicate the job. One reason is that the controllers can use different radio frequencies to communicate with pilots flying planes and pilots flying helicopters."https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/30/business/air-traffic-control-staffing-plane-crash.htmlI don't think there's any evidence that ATCs were picked on a DEI basis irrespective of suitability? That was just Trump being Trump and trying to play politics on the back of a tragedy, as far as I can see. We won't know the full facts until the investigation is completed.

Michael Ixer ● 99d

"there's apparently an established procedure that one ATC looks after the helicopter while a second ATC manages the civilian airliner"I watched a few interviews on the crash and the above procedure was never mentioned - perhaps I missed it??It was mentioned that there were normally two people sharing the workload.However it seem illogical that one person would solely be responsible for a single helicopter whilst the other handles all the other aircraft.Perhaps if the Democrats had an open primary they would have had a better better candidate than Harris and we wouldn't have to listen to Trump.Tulsi Gabbard left the Democrats after being punished for outperforming Harris in the previous primaries.There are lots of talented people of across the sexes, races religions etc.Picking someone that is clearly unsuitable for the position just because of their DEI is just as wrong as picking a 'that chap you were at private school with, or your chum's son ...' as you would put it.Quite frankly it's quite insulting to every capable qualified person across all sexes, races religions etc that have had to work hard - it is they that deserve their chance!

Ed Robinson ● 99d

Yes, Ed, there are regular helicopter flights from the Pentagon to DC. That's why, as I noted, there's apparently an established procedure that one ATC looks after the helicopter while a second ATC manages the civilian airliner but as I said it's reported that procedure wasn't followed and only one ATC dealt with both the helicopter and civilian airliner because of staff shortages. Yes, l watched President Trump's news conference when, after briefly sending condolences to those involved, he rambled on for a long time repeating DEI, how the helicopter and airliner shouldn't have collided (pretty obvious), how you needed bright people as ATCs, etc - then went onto say they were going to recruit the best people irrespective of race, religion, colour, gender (maybe he said sex), etc - which I always thought was a DEI policy! (As opposed to recruiting that chap you were at private school with, or your chum's son ...) I suspect he'll be disappointed if the ATC turns out to be a white, straight male rather than a gay, blind Mexican dwarf, or the cause was a technical failure in the US built 'copter?

Michael Ixer ● 99d

"So you potentially have a leaderless organisation with demoralised and overworked staff ..."Reminds me of the Metropolitan Police but that wasn't Khan's fault apparently.It should be worth noting that there have been allegations that suitable staff not being employed because they did not meet the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) criteria.Apparently it was common practice for military helicopter to fly very close to the airport flight corridors.

Ed Robinson ● 99d

The cause of the crash won't be known for sure until the investigation is finished, and as one commentator from previous investigations noted there's often a combination of events that align to cause a disaster. There are, however, widespread reports in the US news and social media that instead of there being two separate controllers - one to handle military helicopters and a second to guide commercial flights one ATC was having to handle both - allegedly because one controller had been allowed to go off shift earlier. There's also a suggestion that the helicopter was flying above its permitted altitude but that seems to be insubstantial. One report also said the airliner had been requested to cha ge runways for landing at short notice; again, I'm not sure there's any evidence for that. And a friend of mine came up with a good conspiracy theory in the pub yesterday evening: but I'm not going to repeat that!There are two facts; firstly, that the FAA is currently without a leader because of his resignation caused by his clashes with Musk over SpaceX issues during Biden's administration, and, secondly, that ATC staff had erroneously been sent emails suggesting they resign; ATCs, however, aren't eligible for that deal as they're already short staffed. So you potentially have a leaderless organisation with demoralised and overworked staff ...

Michael Ixer ● 99d

Don't forget the problems Boeing have had either.https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/wireStory/air-traffic-controllers-initially-offered-buyouts-told-leaving-118330627

Philippa Bond ● 99d

Or not enough staff.

Ivonne Holliday ● 99d

Staff obviously not properly qualified.

Barbara Stevens ● 100d

In Washington it seems that, sadly, Air Traffic Control wasn't functioning well.

Elizabeth Balsom ● 100d

Another plane crash, an air ambulance, with a young girl on board. This is getting worse. What is going on.

Barbara Stevens ● 100d

Yes, I do remember that Amsterdam crash, and there was a BEA Trident which crashed shortly after leaving Heathrow, I think in 1972 or thereabouts.And of course there's the crash this week in Washington. Time for a rethink, Ms Reeves

Elizabeth Balsom ● 101d

I totally agree, Jane. Do you remember the El Al cargo flight that crashed into two residential buildings in Amsterdam in 1992?  Horrible!Heathrow surrounding areas are fairly buit up at the moment and I think the government wants to build more...  It really is an accident waiting to happen.

Ivonne Holliday ● 101d

Don't blame you Sue, I expect a lot of people feel the same.

Barbara Stevens ● 101d

*Elizabeth 🤭

Sue Hammond ● 101d

@BarbaraAlways felt terrified when flying so gave it up 30 years ago. Never again! @Jane and ElisabethTotally agree - it's utter madness!

Sue Hammond ● 101d

My feelings exactly. The skies over London are horrendously overcrowded as it is. Imagine another 260,000 aircraft movements are year.

Elizabeth Balsom ● 101d

Another good reason against the 3rd runway!

Jane Carter ● 101d