Forum Topic

Farmers' Fightback Has Started

Cowardly' Keir dodges protesters and their tractors as tax fury growsSir Kier Starmer was branded 'cowardly' as he dodged scores of farmers protesting in drizzle and cold outside a venue for a a Welsh Labourconference about his Government's Budget.The Prime Minister told the Welsh Labour conference at Llandudno's Venue Cymru he would defend the Budget 'all day long' as farmers protested against inheritance tax changes.As he spoke, farmers unhappy with the changes to inheritance tax unveiled in Rachel Reeves' first Budget gathered with tractors outside the conference venue in protest.His convoy left the venue through a back gate, with a police escort, to boos from a small number of demonstrators.https://mol.im/a/14090457Thousands more angry farmers are expected to rally outside Downing Street next Tuesday at 11 am

Sue Hammond ● 40d117 Comments

Putting aside which Party was in power at the time and thus might beheld responsible for the situation, surely the large number of immigrants and the increase in their number in recent years must have had some impact on the NHS - its cost and specific issues such as treatment backlogs.The same argument could also surely be made as regards housing shortages and rental costs.

John Hawkes ● 28d

Touche !Now 🎶🎼"Things can only get better" !

John Hawkes ● 28d

'I don't take lessons from racists'.Good, nor do I.But to be honest I don't know of any that post on this Forum that might be considered such.Even though those with vehement anti-Israel views might be thought by some to be leaving themselves open to such an accusation.

John Hawkes ● 28d

Well you said that the Tories ‘screwed up ‘ the NHS. The usual reproach is that they starved it of funds. If in your view underfunding was not the problem, in what way did the Tories ‘screw up’?

Steven Rose ● 29d

As to the tragic case of the farmer who took his own life, the idea that he could just as easily have killed himself over an expected change in  NI as IHT is rather silly. In the first place an increase to employers’ contributions to  NI would only cost a farmer a few thousands at the most, whereas the imposition of IHT could easily leave the heirs with a tax bill of hundreds of thousands. Secondly suicide would not change the situation as regards NI, which would still be payable after the death of the farmer, whereas if a farmer passes sway before the IHT change comes into force, his children won’t be forced to sell the farm. In any case the son in this case confirmed that his father was particularly concerned about the possibile change to IHT.

Steven Rose ● 29d

"So the view that the Tories ‘screwed up’ the NHS by starving it of funds is simply untrue"I don't remember expressing that view?

Michael Brigo ● 29d

Rather than trying to score points with superficial assertions, it would be better to consider the facts. NHS spending was £110 billion in 2010/11, £157 billion in 2019/20 and is now around £180 billion per year. So the view that the Tories ‘screwed up’ the NHS by starving it of funds is simply untrue. The main problem is that 7 million people are on the waiting list for treatment. The causes of the backlog are multifold, including COVID, the increase in population and the fact that people are living longer.

Steven Rose ● 29d

"I'm amazed so many people were able to get a doctor's appointment in order to be assessed as such."Finally we agree the tories screwed the NHS so badly it's near impossible to get a doctors appointment.thank you.

Michael Brigo ● 29d

Re Labour's plans to 'Get Britain working again' and hence cut the nation's benefit bill. 'A record 2.8 million people are currently out of work due to long-term sickness'. - the Guardian.I'm amazed so many people were able to get a doctor's appointment in order to be assessed as such.I assume this is necessary if you are to claim to be too ill to work ?

John Hawkes ● 29d

I don't take lessons from racists.

Michael Brigo ● 29d

'Seriously? He killed himself before it was even announced, without waiting to see if it would even take effect after Jeremy "I bought it to avoid inheritance tax' got involved'.Ah - Mr Sensitivity.Ever thought of going into the therapy business ?

John Hawkes ● 29d

Seriously? He killed himself before it was even announced, without waiting to see if it would even take effect after Jeremy "I bought it to avoid inheritance tax' got involved.It's a tragic death but you may as well say he was upset about employers national insurance.

Michael Brigo ● 29d

@Stevenhttps://www.lbc.co.uk/news/farmer-took-his-own-life-inheritance-tax-budget/

Sue Hammond ● 29d

'Training normally lasts between 1 and 2 years'.Roughly the same I think as for an airline pilot !But probably Mick Lynch insists that they only train (sic) four days a week and then get a week's recovery period.'Automation requires investment and sadly we are completely batty rail investment excuse the pun'.By automation I meant that the driver is supported, I assumed, by a signalling system that contributes greatly to the safe passage of the train which is not left solely the responsibility of the driver. I don't find the 'horrors' of the shift system a plausible reason for disaffection and I assume you think them necessary ?The structure of them I have no doubt is clearly laid out and thanks to Mr Lynch well compensated for.And though they include 'earlies' and 'lates' they do not include night shifts as trains to my recall don't run much after midnight. Reagan made a management/executive decision.Those who would not continue to work under the terms they had contracted for were fired and he hired others that were willing to do so.The worker's free choice.Oh and the train drivers had better watch out as the Labour government has plans to get those claiming unemployment benefits back to work - even those million or so poor souls still not recovered from Covid or have 'mental health' issues."Gizza job. I can do that" !

John Hawkes ● 29d

Of course if the Assisted Dying bill passes on Friday, the farmers will be able to ensure that their children will be able to take over the family farm before the InHeritance Tax change comes into force next year.

Steven Rose ● 30d

Right, back to the farmers. Apparently Starmer had a private meeting today with the Head Honcho at the NFU and change might be coming ...

Sue Hammond ● 30d

"Yes, there is a need for drivers to work a period of 'unsocial' hours but this is true of NHS staff and supermarket staff."There are zero hour contracts that fall into this category but most shift work has pattern. A week of earlies, a week of lates etc."requires little training or learnt skill."Training normally lasts between 1 and 2 years.As the driver explained - people passing the course was not the issue - it was the nature of the shifts.Automation requires investment and sadly we are completely batty rail investment excuse the pun."Remember what Ronald Reagan"Remember what Thatcher did to the miners - Soviet coal - how did that go for today's energy security & bills?? A quote from a couple of years ago from a forum seems to illustrate the circular lifestyle/wage issue:"It's not the lack of time off that is the biggest cause of fatigue, more the variety of shifts that drivers are expected to work. One week you might be on late shifts starting at anything between 1300 and 1900, the next week you might be getting up at 0330 every day then the following week you might be on nights.A few years of doing that takes its toll. And the proposed changes to rostering described as part of the RMT pay 'offer' would increase fatigue still further.

Ed Robinson ● 32d

'End result is very flexible professional highly paid workers which makes it harder to recruit and leads to a high dropout rate'.Why should it be hard to recruit people for a job that is partly automated and pays £80,000 a year ?Yes, there is a need for drivers to work a period of 'unsocial' hours but this is true of NHS staff and supermarket staff.This is what society wants is it not (though perhaps not on the Isle of Lewis) and of all the jobs mentioned above, the train drivers probably out-earn them by a ratio of at least 2:1.And when these £80,000 a year workers 'dropout', what will they do ?Work in jobs that pay less or find another job paying such a salary for a job that to be honest requires little training or learnt skill.Remember what Ronald Reagan did to the striking air traffic controllers that bought this form of transport to its knees !

John Hawkes ● 32d

As if Clarkson gives a fig for his PR!!!

Richard Carter ● 32d

"Jeremy Clarkson reveals real reason he bought farm - it wasn't to avoid inheritance taxThe broadcaster says he had been ‘naive' to tell newspapers that he bought a farm in Oxfordshire to avoid inheritance tax.""Clarkson told the Times in 2021 that avoiding inheritance tax was “the critical thing” in his decision to buy land. He also wrote in a post on the Top Gear website in 2010: “I have bought a farm. There are many sensible reasons for this: Land is a better investment than any bank can offer. The government doesn’t get any of my money when I die. And the price of the food that I grow can only go up.”Addressing these comments in a new interview with the Times, the former Top Gear presenter said: “I never did admit why I really bought it.“I wanted to have a shoot - I was very naive. I just thought it would be a better PR story if I said I bought it to avoid paying tax.”"https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1979813/Jeremy-Clarkson-Diddly-Squat-farm-inheritance-tax-LabourSo Victoria Derbyshire (and of course the BBC) was wrong to believe him and quote his words back to him?You know where you stand with our "naive" Jeremy. Wear your wellies.

David Ainsworth ● 32d

I agree, Sue, but Rachel Reeves didn’t think just hitting the tax dodgers would raise enough money, so she decided to tax family farms as well, a policy both unfair and stupid.

Steven Rose ● 32d

This tax dodge has been known about for years and should have been stopped. The buyers who purchased land for farming purposes but are not actively 'farming' should be the ones who are taxed, and at 40% in my opinion.

Sue Hammond ● 32d

Dan has published a new article based on updated data.I do think he does his best to give a non-party political view and worth following."There’s a better approach which can achieve the Government’s aim to stopping avoidance whilst also protecting family farms.""New data suggests that one third of the farm estates affected by the Budget changes aren’t owned by farmers – they’re held by investors for tax planning purposes. This suggests the Budget proposal doesn’t go far enough to stop avoidance, but goes too far in how it applies to actual farms."https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/11/24/how-to-stop-iht-avoidance-but-protect-farmers/

Ed Robinson ● 32d

"Blimey😮I would have done the job myself for that salary!"What stopped you?Ideal for single people, with no pattern to the shifts - I pass unless there was no other choice.It seems to be one of those circular situations.Train drivers want better wages, train companies want more flexibility.End result is very flexible professional highly paid workers which makes it harder to recruit and leads to a high dropout rate.

Ed Robinson ● 33d

"This shower won't be in power long enough to renationalise anything."Expecting a Russian invasion and takeover then?

David Ainsworth ● 33d

Blimey😮I would have done the job myself for that salary!😺 And so would many thousands of others. Despite all the whingeing🙄I bet not many of them leave though.This shower won't be in power long enough to renationalise anything.

Sue Hammond ● 33d

'No pattern to the shifts - i.e. mixture of early and lates. Break may come at start of shift or end not the middle.High dropout rate due to the lifestyle requirements'.They didn't know that when they applied for the job ?They could have read -https://www.traindriver.org/what-the-job-involves.html'How many hours do train drivers work?The working week T is normally 35 hours, though there are still a few companies working 37 hours or even longer. Bear in mind that this is an average over the link and that individual hours-per-week could vary between roughly 30 and 42. Depending on which firm you work for your week might be spread over four or five shifts, with either one or two No-duty or Rest Days days per week. Anyway it's your fault for wanting to catch a train from 6.00 am or up till 23.00 pm.And does not a salary of c.£80,000 per annum compensate.Snowflakes !Still the Labour Party is commited to re-nationalise the railways when existing private contracts expire.So things are bound to get better for the staff.For the passenger/customer ?We shall see !

John Hawkes ● 33d

Putting aside the priceless value of train drivers wavering to kids and a honk of the horn if they are lucky.I listened to a radio program about a train driver.No pattern to the shifts - i.e. mixture of early and lates. Break may come at start of shift or end not the middle.High dropout rate due to the lifestyle requirements.My thoughts were this is nonsense just get more train drivers and have sensible shifts.The train companies do not want that and the Labour government has just made it more expensive to employ people.Would more doctors do any harm??We have to ask what the barriers are to sensible work / lifestyle balance.

Ed Robinson ● 34d

The extraordinary thing is that the junior doctors and the train drivers are actually  quite well off compared to the majority of farmers and pensioners. So in effect Labour has robbed the poor in order to give  to the  relatively rich.

Steven Rose ● 34d

@John Hawkes 12.35Love it! 🎶👏🏻

Sue Hammond ● 34d

"generally vote Labour"I would think that it may be a 60/40 split for doctors but that is my guess.It is stretching it to say generally vote Labour.Of course junior doctors will probably be left than Doctors in general."Ten doctors have been elected as MPs in the 2024 UK general election.Five doctors are now MPs in the Labour government, led by the new prime minister, Keir Starmer, while five are among the Conservatives elected to the new parliament."https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1494

Ed Robinson ● 34d

'The government have awarded inflationary pay deals to the doctors and train drivers  who generally vote Labour, while they have taken money out of the pockets of pensioners, farmers and people who send their children to private schools, groups who generally vote Conservative. Is that just a coincidence?'No !🎼🎶"The 'non-working' class can kiss my arse, I've got the PM's job at last".And my mate Rache 'the economist for the Bank of England' (or handler of paying-in slips at the Halifax) has the power to decide who gets the money!

John Hawkes ● 34d

The government have awarded inflationary pay deals to the doctors and train drivers  who generally vote Labour, while they have taken money out of the pockets of pensioners, farmers and people who send their children to private schools, groups who generally vote Conservative. Is that just a coincidence?

Steven Rose ● 34d

'Mr Barton was explaining that most farms make an annual return of less than 1% of the value of the business when Barry Gardiner, the MP for Brent, intervened and said, I don’t believe you. That’s terribly inefficient’. The farmer said, ‘Well, that’s farming, Barry’, to which Gardiner repeated, ‘I don’t believe you’, at which point the farmer said, ‘Are you calling me a liar?’These exchanges tell you all you need to know about the ignorance, hypocrisy and arrogance of Labour politicians'. Barry Gardiner - MP for bucolic, rural Brent !'Links to Chinese Communist Party agentIn 2017 The Times revealed, from September 2015 to February 2017, Gardiner had received £182,284 in disclosed cash donations from Christine Lee & Co, a firm of solicitors which acts as the chief legal adviser to the Chinese embassy. Before this, his constituency party received cash donations from the firm of £22,500 between 2009 and 2015. The paper also revealed part of this money was used to fund the employment of Daniel Wilkes, son of the firm's founder Christine Lee, in his parliamentary offices. Gardiner said the son was hired via an open recruitment process and was appointed on merit. Sir Alistair Graham, former chair of the Committee on Standards in Public Life, called the situation "bizarre" and said "there are clearly questions to be answered". After The Times 2017 piece, Gardiner received a further £200,000 from Lee. Gardiner received a total of £425,000 from Lee.In January 2022 Lee was declared by MI5 to be an agent working for the United Front Work Department of the Chinese Communist Party, who was covertly "involved in political interference activities in the UK". Lee's son was employed by Gardiner's constituency office until the MI5 classification was announced. The Times said Gardiner generally took a pro-Beijing position in his shadow portfolio dealings, but the donations were disclosed and there was no suggestion of impropriety on Gardiner's part. Gardiner wrote a letter saying the amounts he received were used to fund researchers and Lee had no influence in the appointment or management of these individuals'.Fund a lot of research or buy a lot of chow mein for £425,000 !

John Hawkes ● 35d

"The farmer explained to the minister that if you gift your farm.."Yes that sounds logical.The gift has to be real not just fiction on paper.Otherwise everyone would be gifting paper gifts to avoid IHT.Let's hope, assuming Gardiner is wrong, that he apologises.

Ed Robinson ● 35d

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmer_Wants_a_WifeTime for a new series?

Michael Brigo ● 35d

Today’s ’Times’ reports on two confrontations which took place at the rally on Tuesday when the owner of a family farm, David Barton, 57, and his son, Ben, confronted spoke to  Labour MPs.  Mr Barton is the owner of a  265 acre mixed farm in the Cotswolds which is worth £5.5 million but which gives him a return of £30 000 to £50 000 a year. First he spoke to the Environment Secretary, Steve Reed, who told him that the first £3 million of his estate would be free of inheritance tax. When the farmer explained that this level of relief only applies to couples, whereas his children would have to pay inheritance tax at 20% on over £4 million, Mr Reed told him that they could avoid the tax if he gifted the farm to his children. The farmer explained to the minister that if you gift your farm to your children (and survive seven years) you have a problem of what to live on, because you are not allowed to draw any benefit from the farm and if you continue to live there you have to pay a market rent. Mr Barton was explaining that most farms make an annual return of less than 1% of the value of the business when Barry Gardiner, the MP for Brent, intervened and said, I don’t believe you. That’s terribly inefficient’. The farmer said, ‘Well, that’s farming, Barry’, to which Gardiner repeated, ‘I don’t believe you’, at which point the farmer said, ‘Are you calling me a liar?’These exchanges tell you all you need to know about the ignorance, hypocrisy and arrogance of Labour politicians. Steve Reed’s ignorance of tax law is plain to see. His officials and advisors have forearmed him with the justification that the first £3 million is free of tax but he has evidently not understood that this only applies to couples. There is clearly hypocrisy in arguing that the change in IHT is intended to help fund the NHS while at the same time advising the farmer on  how to avoid the tax, though he hasn’t understood the problems involved in that particular avoidance scheme. As for Barry Gardiner, who has never run a business in his life, having worked in local government and marine insurance before becoming an MP, his arrogance in pontificating on the inefficient use of capital to a hard working farmer beggars belief. Like many Labour politicians, who believe that they have a monopoly on truth and virtue, he thinks that anyone who disagrees with his views must be either a liar or a fool.

Steven Rose ● 35d

I think the government would have been more successful with the removal of the 1984 IHT exemption if they were more committed to local produced food.Instead this is seen as another attempt to erase farming from the UK. Fisheries and farming be it the EU or Brexit, Conservative or Labour are always going to horse traded. I note that Prince Charles did not pay inheritance tax. Perhaps royalists can defend small holdings paying it and Kings being exempt?

Ed Robinson ● 36d

Farmers at the event included Jeremy Squirrell, a Suffolk arable and poultry farmer, who said he would have “frogmarched” Farage and others including the former Sun columnist Katie Hopkins “off the site”, adding: “They taint our just cause with conspiracy, lies, hateful comments and deceit.”The sheep farmer Sarah Shuffell said Farage’s presence was a “PR car crash for farming”.They tried jumping on the bandwagon but were kicked off. Good.

Jonathan Callaway ● 36d

"Anybody who has to work on a farm in all weathers trying to produce food for me to eat with all the bureaucracy involved deserves to be treated with respect."First pro-immigrant statement from a right winger i've heard in a while.

Michael Brigo ● 36d

@RC 11.14IHT calculated in 1984 is not a correct yardstick for comparison now because the value of a farmer's land and material assets have increased exponentially. Don't forget that when IHT is calculated the complete value of the estate is considered. For a farmer it will not only be the value of the land which can be enormous; the average price of arable land in 2023 was £11,300 per acre, so what is its value now? Then you have to add on the value of the farmhouse plus any outbuildings such as a stable, milking shed, piggery etc. Then you must add on the value of the farm equipment (tractors, harvesters, plows, wagons and trailers etc).Finally the value of any livestock must be included because they are also part of the estate.  Reeves' punitive IHT will affect many, many more 1000's of family farmers and it demonstrates that she has not thought this through. She is not an experienced economist (as proven by her edited CV) and she has never had a business so has no practical knowledge of how they are run. Reeves is just another career politician with no real expertise in anything and she has to go!

Sue Hammond ● 36d

What makes farmers different in my opinion is that they are a key part of human society and the environment, they are essential for the transition to sustainability.  Food like air and the quality of it is just as important.Anybody who has to work on a farm in all weathers trying to produce food for me to eat with all the bureaucracy involved deserves to be treated with respect.  The Government didn’t even consult the Farmers Union this could have been avoided.  Life is about choices and Starmer and his crew are fouling up big time.Many businesses will go to the wall not only due to IHT but increases in Employers NI.

Robert Wheeler ● 36d

Richard, on what basis do you assert that fears over the impact of the changes to inheritance tax and business property relief are ‘a gross exaggeration’? Ten thousand farmers attended the rally yesterday. Why would they have come down from as far away as Scotland and demonstrated in the pouring rain if they have nothing to worry about.  Do you really think they have all been hoodwinked by the ‘Daily Mail’ and that you know their  business better than they do? Today’s ’Telegraph’ highlights the case of one of the demonstrators, Stephen Thompson, 63, from Sheffield, who has 200 acres of arable land and also farms 200 sows and 2000 pigs. ‘My farm is worth £7 million but we haven’t turned a profit in the last three years because of low prices and the high cost of grain due to the war in Ukraine. What am I supposed to do? ‘ Even supposing that the first three £3 million are free of tax, his children will be left with a tax demand for £800 000.  They will  obviously be forced to sell part if not the whole of the farm. Many other farming families will be faced with similarly unaffordable tax demands. How is that fair to the farmers? How does that promote food security?

Steven Rose ● 36d

But, Robert, every business had the benefit of cheap energy and the cost of running it, so what makes farming any different? Apart from the sentimentality with which so many view them, that is...And to claim that IHT will cripple ordinary farmers really is a gross exaggeration.

Richard Carter ● 36d

Saying someone agrees with you doesnt compromise their impartiality - what are you on about?The OBR always takes a position on the budget.

Michael Brigo ● 36d

Yesterday the Prime Minister claimed that the BBC supported his view that the vast majority of farms would be unaffected by the changes in inheritance tax and business property relief. It is surely unprecedented for a Prime Minister, who commands an army of civil servants as well as special advisors to present him with the facts, should feel the need to invoke the BBC when attempting to justify his policies. In doing so he compromised the impartiality of the BBC, just as Rachel Reeves compromised the independence of the OBR when she said in her Budget speech that they supported her views on the alleged black hole left by the Conservatives.

Steven Rose ● 36d

Says the man from 'rural' Putney lol

Michael Brigo ● 36d

'This Government has a real problem understanding the real world where the public live'.Surely not; isn't it Islington, Camden, Hackney or the City of London ?Or Primrose Hill where they are so conscious of the healthy effects of proper natural food, they tried to ban Gail's from opening in competition to artisanal coffee shops and bakeries. They'll march with the farmers !

John Hawkes ● 36d

I think the main difference is the inflation on land values since 1984 that bring so many additional farms into this tax regime.

Andy Pike ● 36d

Richard “It didn't totally wipe out farmers before 1984, so why do they expect us to believe it will do so now?” because of costs Richard.  We had the benefit of cheap energy and the cost of running a business.  IHT will cripple ordinary farmers.  Do you really want imported food with all the health and climate risks?This Government has a real problem understanding the real world where the public live.

Robert Wheeler ● 36d

"Are you seriously comparing running any business with costs and overheads to 1984.  Really? Fuel, labour costs, rents, rates etc." Robert, I made no such comparison, but was just stating that IHT was payable on farms until 1984.

Richard Carter ● 36d

@RichardAre you seriously comparing running any business with costs and overheads to 1984.  Really? Fuel, labour costs, rents, rates etc.Again getting back to the real world Labour should stop wheeling out ministers saying fix the foundations when the foundation of this country is its people, all its people.  You cannot run a serious Government whilst blaming everyone else for your own budget choices.  Winter Fuel Allowance, farmers etc.

Robert Wheeler ● 36d

Perhaps we will end up going back to the war days, queuing for a sausage or a small piece of cheese. Chickens in your garden annoying the neighbors. Grow your own veg and fruit trees. Perhaps they should stop serving Starmer in shops and pubs, also Reeves see how they like it. Give them a taste of their own medicine.

Barbara Stevens ● 36d

If we can get back to the point of this thread,  there's so much hysterical nonsense over this IHT debate: the Telegraph today, for example, quotes some rich farmer as whining that "We farmers face total wipe out."The curious thing, though, is that before the introduction of Agricultural Property Relief in 1984, farms were indeed subject to inheritance tax. It didn't totally wipe out farmers before 1984, so why do they expect us to believe it will do so now?

Richard Carter ● 36d

'Oh no, not the silly "Starmer can't define what ia a woman" line yet again'! The Independent 19 June 2024"Blair right that a woman has a vagina and a man has a penis, Starmer says"'The Labour leader has hardened his position (sic) on biological sex.Sir Keir Starmer has agreed with Sir Tony Blair that a woman has a vagina and a man has a penis.It marks a hardening of the Labour leader’s stance on biological sex, having previously said that “99.9% of women” do not have a penis'.Obviously the Labour leader looks at issues such as what is the definition of a woman with great seriousness before he makes up his mind.And then takes advice from New Labour.Is that not what one might expect of a great leader ?What is his stand however regarding that original 0.1% of women who are biologically different ?

John Hawkes ● 36d

Is that the best you can come up with to defend him Richard? Starmer will never live it down,  nor his 'sausages' gaffe. What a prize pr@t.

Sue Hammond ● 36d

Well perhaps they should top taking money from ordinary people trying to make a living. The Government is only continually giving themselves rises.

Barbara Stevens ● 36d

Oh no, not the silly "Starmer can't define what ia a woman" line yet again! Even the Daily Mail gave up on that well over a year ago. Give it a rest, do.

Richard Carter ● 36d

All the Labour Ministers are very adept at dodging questions that they do not want to answer. They take the lead from slippery Starmer who never gives a straight answer to contentious or challenging questions, basically any subject that he is uncomfortable with. He still cannot define what a woman is so thank goodness he never become a Judge because he wouldn't be able to decide where to incarcerate a criminal, Holloway or Wormwood Scrubs.🤔

Sue Hammond ● 36d

'You Make Promises You Can't Keep': Kay Burley Clashes With Minister Over Farming 'Betrayal'https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/you-make-promises-you-cant-keep-kay-burley-clashes-with-minister-over-farming-betrayal_uk_673c3e3ee4b0d2fb999a983aDevastating interview with yet another question dodging incompetent Labour Minister Diana Johnson of the Home Office. Probably responsible for stopping illegal immigration by the 'boat people'.

John Hawkes ● 37d

'From what I heard in the news, farm equipment will be included in the value of farmers’ estates for IHT purposes.  Why?  It’s not like owning jewellery or a painting.  It’s something they need to do their work'.Not something understood in Islington !

John Hawkes ● 37d

Why, oh why, indeed!

Ivonne Holliday ● 37d

Ivonne, I agree, I didn’t think any of the people at the protest looked extremely wealthy.  They all looked like hard working farmers. From what I heard in the news, farm equipment will be included in the value of farmers’ estates for IHT purposes.  Why?  It’s not like owning jewellery or a painting.  It’s something they need to do their work

Martine Guy ● 37d

Reed is really despicable.Also:  "Environment Secretary Steve Reed says: “It’s only right to ask the very wealthiest farmers and those wealthy individuals who have been buying up agricultural land to avoid their own inheritance tax liability, to pay their fair share.”So, the wealthiest farmers own farms starting at £1m.  Please!Did you see any footage of the protest today?  Could anybody honestly say that the people there looked extremely wealthy?  Grrrr

Ivonne Holliday ● 37d

There's no need to go to the Australian jungle to eat insects.  They are eaten in loads of countries all over the world and you can find them in restaurants in the UK.No-one is stopping you from eating the meat you are used to but they are a protein that causes a lot less methane to raise and are also loved by chickens.  So you may be inadvertently eating them anyway!

Philippa Bond ● 37d

This afternoon a minister, when asked by a BBC presenter whether the government would listen to the farmers, replied that the government would work with the farmers to help them understand why they are wrong. Patronising or what?

Steven Rose ● 37d

Apparently Starmer has said he “gets it” referring to farmers speaking from Brazil.  If he spent more time on UK urgent issues apart from international trips we would all be better off.The farmers should be more French in their protest in my opinion who have tipped manure across motorways.  We are never going to fix the NHS and it is beyond naive to think otherwise.  Starmer is over the other side of the world talking about climate change and stopping the boats while people in the UK lose their jobs, close businesses and many elderly freeze.

Robert Wheeler ● 37d

'Yes, I agree life is unfair but does that mean we shouldn't attempt to make it fairer when we can?'How do you suggest we do that ?

John Hawkes ● 37d

It isn’t just the commitment farmers have to make to running a farm, it’s the isolation.  I think there’s a lot of theft of farm vehicles and equipment, plus the stealing of cattle and dog attacks on sheep.  The loss of one animal must cost a farmer a lot of money, plus the time they have spent on caring for the animals. I think Labour are clueless about the life of the farming community.  The farmer’s wife I knew was one of the hardest working people I’ve ever met.  She was a farmer’s daughter, a farmer’s sister, and her son became a farmer.  

Martine Guy ● 37d

In what way can burdening a struggling farmer earning maybe £50k pa with a  tax bill running into hundreds of thousands of pounds be reconciled with the Labour mantra of  ensuring that ‘those with the broadest shoulders pay a little bit more’?

Steven Rose ● 37d

'Whereas you jail the environmental protestors and nobody notices'.Because though some of the population may have some sympathy with their cause, very few have any sympathy for their methods, seeing these as the self-aggrandisement of a middle class elite - mainly students.

John Hawkes ● 37d

Doubt it.Not a punishment imposed on pro-Palestinian marchers though some 'Just Stop Oil' protesters I think were for climbing on a gantry and blocking the M25 for hours.

John Hawkes ● 37d

As I say, it's not a problem for me. Yes, they're not equivalent, but I just find the different attitudes to alternative "legacies" interesting. I selected the word "damaged" deliberately: I agree the world will survive - it's coped well with all sorts of extreme temperatures since its formation - as will life in general but the questions are, which species might survive the next mass extinction and how difficult will human life find rising temperatures if we don't slow them down ... still perhaps Putin might save that problem by pressing the nuclear button! (Are the cockroaches prepared for their takeover of the planet ...)Yes, I agree life is unfair but does that mean we shouldn't attempt to make it fairer when we can?

Michael Ixer ● 37d

Live and posted to her FB 3 hours agohttps://www.facebook.com/share/v/19akkh4qMa/?mibextid=WC7FNe

Sue Hammond ● 37d

I guess if you jail the farmers, you will start to disrupt the food supply.  They actually do a job that is essential.  Whereas you jail the environmental protestors and nobody notices.

Martine Guy ● 37d

These positions are not comparable and are an example of false equivalence i.e a logical fallacy where you incorrectly asserts that two things are equivalent (inheritance and 'a damaged planet') simply because they share some characteristic (my children?) despite there also being substantial differences between them.Re the 'damaged planet' -'The earliest undisputed evidence of life on Earth dates from at least 3.5 billion years ago'.It has survived many extreme natural phenomena and in my view has a long way to go yet.As for my children, they are set up and do earn and pay their own way.But that has no relevance to, any more than does the fear of rising global temperatures, that having worked and having paid all my required taxes for many years I should have the right to pass to them what I have accumulated.If that seems unfair to you - well life is unfair unfortunately.

John Hawkes ● 37d

I think tge idea is the farmers grow veggies instead ... or is this when the giant lizards come in to take over control? (Seem to remember that was a great Dr Who mini series 🙂)

Michael Ixer ● 37d

I assume they will be jailed if they block roads? right?

Michael Brigo ● 37d

It's not really about tax. Tax is just being used to forward the agenda. The government, puppets to the ruling Cabal, want farmers off the land. Just a couple of weeks ago, the government stated that they want us to halve our meat and dairy consumption. There you go..

Michael Brown ● 37d

Mr Hawkes. You seem concerned about not being able to pass on your investments to your offspring but would be happy to leave them to deal with a damaged planet? Not really my problem, but just interested in that discrepancy: I'd have thought they are set up to earn and pay their own way in the world whereas if global temperatures keep rising as they are at present the situation will be difficult to recover.

Michael Ixer ● 37d

Silly me to have forgotten, but I also pay tax on my savings interest and investment income which I will pass on to my children.So why are they also subject to the double taxation of Inheritance Tax ?

John Hawkes ● 37d

MartineI think this was the position b4 this new tax on hard work. And could have been retained but sadly Martha from the HBOS complaints dept thought differently.

Andy Pike ● 37d

If the war in Ukraine worsens, which is looking likely, isn’t Ukraine known as the breadbasket of Europe, so presumably this could affect our food supplies?  At this time, we should be supporting our hard working farmers, not trying to hurt their way of life.

Martine Guy ● 37d

This of course begs the whole basis of there being an Inheritance Tax.I work for a salary and pay income tax to support necessary communal services and benefits.I also save and invest to help support my and my family's future.Why should this also be taxed ?

John Hawkes ● 37d

'I know it isn't quite such a talking point but it is belching rather than farting that causes the huge amount of methane that cows put into the atmosphere.  It has also been discovered that if they are FED SOME SEAWEED that this can be reduced'.Now I know the world is going mad over climate change !

John Hawkes ● 37d

'tax on agricultural emissions, including flatulence by livestock' !Why not a tax on Labour politicians and all the hot air they emit ?!

John Hawkes ● 37d

'And it's not an easy life, made far more difficult than it should by the miserable returns from the supermarket chains'.So who is to blame for the difficulty - the Chancellor or the supermarkets ?As Harry Hill might have said - "There's only one way to find out. FIGHT".

John Hawkes ● 37d

Maybe the farms should only be liable to IHT if the farms are sold when the farmer dies?  Usually they are passed down through the family.  And by sold, I mean if the family who inherit want to sell up rather than carry on farming. I spent 7 years living in a countryside hamlet as a child.  You had to go through a farm to get to our cottage.  Also I lived on a pig farm for a year.  Both experiences were horrible and I would never swap my life in London to live in the countryside again.  It can be a really hard life.

Martine Guy ● 37d

'I was brought up on a farm and lived there until I was 18'.Did you inherit it and did you have to pay Inheritance Tax ?

John Hawkes ● 37d

"Absolutely the supermarkets screw the farmers for every penny."One example: my sister and brother-in-law had a herd of 60 milking cows, but sold them as they were actually losing money, the prices paid by the supermarkets were so low; similarly with the pigs they kept.

Richard Carter ● 37d

Phillipa perhaps you should do us all a favour and join the fools in the Australian jungle where you can eat all sorts of crap and get paid for it.This person for one will continue with a largely meat diet thank you very much.

Andy Pike ● 37d

Absolutely the supermarkets screw the farmers for every penny.My in laws were tenant farmers in Northumberland, though we didnt want to take on the tenancy on their demise it does raise the question hiw will this affect tenant farmers.Not directly but if the landowner ( in this case Lord Ravensworth) passes his successors tax bill will be millions. Presumably that will require his successors to sell off some of their tenancies to pay the bill. I doubt many of the tenant farmers would be able to buy so those on the farms most likely to get planning permission would presumably be moved on ( to where?) Whilst the farms would be sold off for housing development o pay the tax bill.Many of the villages in Northumberland already have new estates on their edges where farmers have disposed  of land for building  this will only increase.Unfortunately many of those homes dont go to locals but become homes for people from the towns who can commute easily by road into the major conurbations.Whatever way we look at this I believe there will be a substantial loss of land available for food production as a result.

Andy Pike ● 37d

Take a look at the list.  They are considered a delicacy in lots of countries and there are some which are grown specifically to eat.  Why are people so squeamish about eating insects and not about eating animals?Want to try a cricket taco?https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/columnists/insect-restaurant-crickets-yum-bug-finsbury-park/

Philippa Bond ● 37d

I know it isn't quite such a talking point but it is belching rather than farting that causes the huge amount of methane that cows put into the atmosphere.  It has also been discovered that if they are fed some seaweed that this can be reduced.

Philippa Bond ● 37d

Characteristically, you missed the point, Andy. It wasn't intended as a boast but to show I was familiar with farming - and I may have left it but many members, on both sides of the family, continue to farm.  And it's not an easy life, made far more difficult than it should by the miserable returns from the supermarket chains  for example.

Richard Carter ● 37d

"An association with a workplace in the past does not make one an expert on its difficulties in the present or the future."Congratulations for not mentioning "Tool Daddy", Mr Pike!

David Ainsworth ● 37d

'I was brought up in a farm and lived there till I was 18' says Mr Carter.A quick round of applause. Our Chancellor says she was employed as an economist when in  reality she was a complaints clerk for HBOS.An association with a workplace in the past does not make one an expert on its difficulties in the present or the future.Let's leave the justifications to the farmers who live this life every day, ( rather than 60 years ago) and please get an adult in the treasury with real experience of finance.

Andy Pike ● 37d

Incorrect, Richard.For one, not all farm animals are ruminants.Secondly, the degree of flatulence in cows depends very much on the quality of grazing they have and the quality of food and/or silage they are given.  The lower the quality, the higher the emitions.I am talking about normal practices of rearing cattle, sheep, goats, deer, namely grazing in fields normally in spring and summer.  The travesty of industrial meat production is horrific and uncaring.Another aspect that everybody avoids mentioning is the amazing fertilization of fields by cattle above anything else.  Their value on this is beyond immense.

Ivonne Holliday ● 37d

Richard,The average size of a farm in the UK is 88 hectares = 217.453 acres.  The average cost of an acre of land is £13,500 (well, between £12,000 and £15,000).  That makes the cost of an average farm in England £2,935,615.A smallholding, on the other hand, the average size is 50 acres at a cost of £675,000.Many of the average and bigger farms have been farmed for generations (at least 3) and have produced food for the UK successfully.Of course, some farms found it more profitable to give up farming and install solar panels on very fertile fields....  I suspect that this move towards "making the farmers pay for the NHS" or charge IHT is in reality a move to buy land cheaply from them and build houses. Or dare I say railways???  One way or another, it is reducing the number of farms available for the production of food.You are not the only one to have been brought up in a farm by the way.

Ivonne Holliday ● 37d

Well how come so many people had to buy different vehicles to put a stop to the pollution. ULEZ to stop people dying from fumes, but they can die from fumes if people pay £12.50.

Barbara Stevens ● 37d

Grazing cows, yes, but not cows factory farmed on an industrial scale.

Michael Ixer ● 37d

"Yes, I would expect an awful lot of flatulence from all the cyclists as well."Blown away in the slipstream, happily. Unlike in cars where it will just hover and lurk.

David Ainsworth ● 38d

Yes, I would expect an awful lot of flatulence from all the cyclists as well.

Barbara Stevens ● 38d

Of course, Carter - grazing cows have been destroying the planet for centuries. We need to get rid of them and cover the land with solar panels and wind farms, and maybe leave a bit of land for lithium battery minerals exploration, plus areas to farm insects for our new diet..

Michael Brown ● 38d

To make the point more seriously and to underline the significance of this question, the Food and Agriculture Organisation estimated in 2013 that livestock production accounted for 14.5% of global greenhouse gas emissions; more recent data suggests that the figure may be as low as 11 per cent or as high as 19.6 per cent. Whatever the actual figure, it's clear that farm animals exert a significant effect on global heating, and that we should greatly reduce our reliance on dairy and meat products.https://thebreakthrough.org/issues/food-agriculture-environment/livestock-dont-contribute-14-5-of-global-greenhouse-gas-emissions

Richard Carter ● 38d

Now, here's an idea: Denmark has agreed on how to implement the world’s first tax on agricultural emissions, including flatulence by livestock! Raising money and helping combat the climate emergency in one move: that should put the wind up the farmers!https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20nq8qgep3o

Richard Carter ● 38d

Apart from anything else, Steve Reed assured the UK’s 100 000 farmers via briefings to the NFU before the election that Labour had ‘no intention’ of changing the rules on inheritance tax. And even after the election MPs wrote to their constituents saying that rumours of a change in inheritance tax for farmers were simply rumours., nothing more. Another Labour lie, to be added to the broken pledge not to raise National Insurance.

Steven Rose ● 38d

"we'll go hungry later when the government takes control of the food chain.."Oh no! Not 5G particles in my AllBran!

David Ainsworth ● 38d

I support the farmers, even if they strike and I go hungry. It's not a coincidence that farmers throughout Europe have come under attack from their respective governments. If we don't go hungry now, we'll go hungry later when the government takes control of the food chain..

Michael Brown ● 38d

There is hysteria Richard l would call it anger.  It’s about food security where farms are not forced to sell up and the land redeveloped into what exactly.  We import energy should we now upscale to import yet more food from countries that will not have our food standards.I want my food grown reasonably close to where l consume it, isn’t that what climate is all about.

Robert Wheeler ● 38d

I'm really angry about this hysteria about farming.  A tiny proportion of farms will be affected by IHT, yet the right-wing is blowing it up ludicrously as a supposed threat to food and a fantastical "War on Farmers" - see the front page of the Daily Excess today. And before anyone suggests that I don't know what farming is like, I was brought up on a farm and lived there until I was 18.

Richard Carter ● 38d

In today’s ’Telegraph’ Steve Reed, the Environment Secretary, was given the opportunity to defend the government’s decision to impose inheritance tax on farms worth over £1 million. He devoted most of the article to attacking the Conservatives’ record in office, with the obligatory references to Liz Truss ‘crashing’ the economy and the £22 billion ‘black hole’. When he did get round to the withdrawal of agricultural tax relief he offered highly tendentious arguments:1) He said that wealthy individuals from non-farming backgrounds have been buying up agricultural land to avoid inheritance tax, but he failed to point out that this loophole could easily be closed by ensuring that tax relief would only apply to working farms which are passed on from one generation to the next.2) He argued that 40% of the tax relief has gone to the richest 7% of landowners, ‘costing other taxpayers a whopping £200 million’. That is tendentious in two ways. In the first place it glosses over the fact that the majority of the tax relief has gone to small and medium farmers. But it is also a loaded way to describe a tax hike.  One could just as easily say that employers have up to now cost taxpayers over £20 billion because they used to pay 2% less in National Insurance than they will pay in the future.  Steve Reed also failed to point out that the measure is only likely to raise a total of £500 million, an insignificant sum when set against the government’s annual expenditure of £1 trillion and hardly likely to provide the schools, health services and public transport which the government has promised rural communities.3) He stated that inheritance tax would only affect farms worth over £3 million and could be paid over ten years. However a farmer whose spouse has died would expect his children to pay inheritance tax on the value above £1 million. A farm of 500 acres at present day land values is worth around £5 million, so the heirs would be faced with a tax bill of £400k. A farm of this size typically produces an income as low as £60k, making it impossible to pay the tax bill, whether in ten years or a hundred years. As a result the heirs would be forced to sell the farm.4) He stated that the measure will impact less than 100 farms per year, but he failed to deal with the fact that potentially 70 000 farms could be affected.Steve Reed’s article was dreadful, demonstrating Labour’s twin obsessions - the Tories, who they continually attack as if they were still in Opposition, and the rich, who they think can be taxed to pay for improvements in public services. I think most people believe that slapping an enormous tax bill on asset rich but income poor farmers is inherently unfair and forcing them to sell their farms jeopardises food security.

Steven Rose ● 38d

Absolutely. With the farmers all the way.

Victoria Diamond ● 40d

We need farmers not politicians.Let’s all make an effort to show our support on Tuesday.P

Paul Beer ● 40d

Absolutely!

Sue Hammond ● 40d

I think life in the countryside can be really tough and there’s no way I would want to be a farmer.    I hope the farmers succeed in this.  Good luck to them!

Martine Guy ● 40d

Sue Hammond ● 40d