Forum Topic

Back door legislation on MAD

The bill was being discussed in the HoC but the text has not yet been published because it's a private members bill and the rules are different.Please watch or follow or watch on youtube Yuan Yi Zhu. A good fellow that takes time to highlight the issues and the dangers of following Canada."The government thinks five hours' debate and no pre-legislative scrutiny (the text of the bill doesn't even exist!) is sufficient for one of the most morally consequential decisions of recent decades. For that contempt alone MP should vote down the Leadbeater bill."https://x.com/yuanyi_z/status/1849414939368157597

Ed Robinson ● 63d22 Comments

@ Ed you said “Should the state or carers have a say when an adult needs care towards the end of life? That would be the nearest analogy.”  Neither the state or the carer but the actual individual has to make the decision with proper medical advice.  People have to make an informed choice.  That is not available now as those who choose the right to die have to go to Switzerland or commit suicide here.  Hardly compassionate.Anyway Ed it won’t happen as Wes Streeting is against it and the likelihood of this progressing legally just won’t happen.

Robert Wheeler ● 59d

It is a very difficult snd emotional subject as far as I am concerned.It must be awful for people to die in pain or suffocating.... I do not think we do actually understand this unless a person is going through this trauma...  It is horrific as far as I am concerned but there again, I have at the back of my head the mother of a friend of ours who was in a care home and she was suffering from acute MS....As far as abortion or C-section is concerned, many times mother's do not have an option.  Somebody I know had a baby a week 28 and, according to medical records, it was an abortion...As I said, it is all highly emotional.

Ivonne Holliday ● 59d

Robert you or anyone else did not consciously choose when you were born. More specifically you had no say in your birth. There is no right for a fetus or baby to determine which day they are born on.Even a woman or pregnant person if you prefer can not decide any date that they wish to give birth by C-section or other means. The UK which made legal in 2020 abortion through out the UK. Unlike some blue Democrat states which can abort with no limits the UK has limits.All of which is irrelevant because the person being born has no such say in when they are born, no more than a tooth has a say being removed on the chosen day to visit the dentist. It is the mother of the unborn child making the decisions.The mothers rights over the child of course may be considered in the case when the mother is in danger as there is a dependency after all she is carrying the child.Should the state or carers have a say when an adult needs care towards the end of life? That would be the nearest analogy.

Ed Robinson ● 59d

Ed planned C-sections have been available for decades enabling women if they so choose along with their medical professionals to select a day when this procedure takes place.  As Michael stated David Steele transformed women’s options back in the 60’s and ended people taking dangerous options.Again l ask if proper medical processes are in place what is the difference between choosing the right to die and choosing a birth.  Asking what day l choose to give birth doesn’t add to the debate.  The right to end a life is all about personal choice and the principle of all medicine is about informed choice.

Robert Wheeler ● 59d

"If people have a right to give birth on a certain day they must have the right to choose when they die."So what day did you choose to give birth???

Ed Robinson ● 59d

I was attempting to highlight that the state does not have capital punishment even for the most hideous of crimes. The chance of someone subsequently being proved  innocent is often sited.No such grace is afforded to the innocent it would seem, they can be despatched without a doubt!

Ed Robinson ● 59d

Well said, Robert.

Michael Ixer ● 61d

Thank you for that. I was wondering whether your comment:-"Giving the state the power to end it's citizens life that have committed no crime is not something that I could support."might suggest that you thought that giving the state the power to end it's citizens life that have committed a crime is something that you could support.

David Ainsworth ● 61d

It is about personal choice and respecting the individual right to end their life when and how they want to.  If people have a right to give birth on a certain day they must have the right to choose when they die.Personally for me it is about quality of life, not just being alive.  It is positive that this is a cross party Bill.

Robert Wheeler ● 61d

Relatives have been threatened with prosecution for accompanying people who want a dignified death to Switzerland. So of course the law needs changing to enable assisted dying in the UK. However, decisions must be between the individual and at least two qualified medical practitioners (a minimal requirement). I can understand some who are religious may have moral objections, but for better or worse the UK is essentially a secular country so we ought to have a free vote in parliament on this issue. 

Michael Ixer ● 61d

"Who said anything about the state ending people's lives"If that was not the case there would be no need for a change in the law.As for the comparison with other countries the UK is a lot closer to Canada than Switzerland. Although both seem to our rank the UK in international comparisons.Switzerland is the top ranking democracy in many international indices, the UK just makes it into the top 20. It's also top ranking by freedom which the UK doesn't make it into the top 20.

Ed Robinson ● 61d

"So you could support the death penalty then?"Good question! Why not support the death penalty if you agree with the state taking someone's life?Which is more likely to get it wrong?They sure as hell won't be spending the types of money that trials and appeals cost!The best argument for the death penalty I have heard is by Peter Hitchens. I disagree with him on this and a number of other issues, but he did tackle it from another dimension that caused some 🤔https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2020/01/q-a-on-the-death-penalty-.html

Ed Robinson ● 61d

"Posted by: John HawkesDate/Time: 05/10/24 13:17:00Mr RoseVery cogent and balanced comments.However might I suggest you and I both stop indulging this man ?As my grandmother would have said, we should advise him to "save his breath to cool his porridge".We have stopped listening."

David Ainsworth ● 61d

Do stop highjacking threads. Ed, Rivert and Michael are having an interesting and important discussion here which I fir one  would like to follow without the distraction of extraneous topics like the death penalty.

Steven Rose ● 61d

Ed, oops, yes, it was Robert that mentioned safeguards. Transposed that when skimming through. Who said anything about the state ending people's lives? It's those who wish to end their own lives who require the assistance to, ideally, end their own life are home. I'd like to have that option if I had a painful terminal illness as a friend in Switzerland was able to do for their debilitating condition.

Michael Ixer ● 61d

"Giving the state the power to end it's citizens life that have committed no crime is not something that I could support."So you could support the death penalty then?

David Ainsworth ● 61d

"although I agree with Ed that there must be sufficient safeguards."I didn't mention safeguards.Giving the state the power to end it's citizens life that have committed no crime is not something that I could support.I think that link was published on the 21st October see below:"On 16 October 2024, Kim Leadbeater (Labour) presented the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill 2024-25 to Parliament, having been drawn first in the Private Members’ Bills ballot for the 2024-25 session. The full text of the bill has not yet been published, but its long title states it will “allow adults who are terminally ill, subject to safeguards and protections, to request and be provided with assistance to end their own life”.The bill’s second reading is scheduled for Friday 29 November 2024...https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-10123/

Ed Robinson ● 61d

I agree with Robert on this, although I agree with Ed that there must be sufficient safeguards. If it hasn't been published, what's this on the government website?https://bills.parliament.uk/publications/55997/documents/4980I'm sure it will be scrutinised in detail, and amendments and challenges made during its various readings in the Lords and Commons.  The Swiss system seems to work reasonably well (for the Swiss) but the Canadian law seems to be susceptible to pressures from what seem to me other problems with Canadian society that it doesn't guard against. I'd note, if one looks back to the 1960s, the abortion legalisation bill was a private member bill introduced by David Steel and the one to legalise homosexuality in England was originally introduced into the House of Lords. It seems that social changes which are cross party issues are often introduced as private bills where there is a feeling that such changes are needed.

Michael Ixer ● 62d

"You can’t oppose a Bill that hasn’t been published"Yet you can support one?Of course you can oppose a Bill that hasn’t been published on the principle that bill should at least be published!"trusting our elected representatives"How did that go with Iraq or the expenses scandals or the cash for honours or ....

Ed Robinson ● 62d

You can’t oppose a Bill that hasn’t been published.  However l am supporting a principle and at this stage trusting our elected representatives to formulate and agree a proposal which enables people to die when they want whilst also incorporating sensible safeguards.

Robert Wheeler ● 63d

So you agree with a bill that hasn't yet been published?Would you sign here on this blank sheet to be filled in later?I think you are confusing your desire which is perfectly reasonable with the reality that will follow.Did Canadians not have the same reasonable expectations?How did that work out?

Ed Robinson ● 63d

Actually Ed many times I agree with your posts but on this one not.  I support this Bill.  Surely in this age when science can allow a time we are born via C-sections an individual can choose their own time to die.  Too many families have the trauma of watching their loved ones die in pain when palliative care can not ease their pain.  End of life shouldn’t be a trial by ordeal but a choice by the individual.Freedom of choice with safety nets in place.

Robert Wheeler ● 63d