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Welcome back !Sorry that you seemingly find it so depressing to read some people putting the case for Israel having the right to defend itself.'and the usual guff about Hamas's genocidal charter (deliberately confusing its aims with its inability actually to carry them out)'.Please explain why this fact is 'guff'.Have you read the Charter ?Its attitudes and intentions seem pretty clear to me.Actions on 7th October 2023 were a starting attempt to carry them out were they not ?It's just that in a 'fair fight' as in most other matters and activities, Israeli Jews are far more competent (in defending themselves) than are the Palestinian Arabs (in trying to annihilate them).And have your peace loving Palestinian friends in Hamas and Hezbollah offered any apology for their attacks on and invasion of Israel ?Might you do it on their behalf ?Or do you think it justified ?Don't get too smug.The October attack killed children and the Israeli response is doing the same.Both consequences are indefensible.But such actions by Hamas Palestinians were deliberate whilst they could minimise their infant casualties by moving the children from the areas they choose to base their fighters in.There are no 'braver' armchair warriors than those who support those calling for the destruction of the state of Israel and the annihilation of the Jews (whether feasible or not).And the phrase 'the genocidal Israeli bloodlust is satusfied' is in bad taste if not worse, bearing in mind 6,000,000 Jews were actually the victims of a true and planned fascist/racist genocide which many that you support have stated they would like to see repeated.Finally a direct question.Do you personally think the state of Israel and its in the main Jewish citizens have the right to exist in its current position in the Middle East ? 

John Hawkes ● 65d

Hi RichardIt’s good of you to turn your attention to the Forum, which apparently is usually beneath your notice.I mentioned Hamas’ genocidal charter in reply to an earlier post which, if I understood it correctly, implicitly described the Israelis as ‘genocidal maniacs’.I don’t think that Hamas’ declared  aim of exterminating the Jewish population of Israel can be described as ‘guff’. It is easy from the comfort of Putney to say that Hamas have no capacity to achieve their aim. They certainly had the capacity to rape, mutilate and murder almost a thousand civilians on October 7, an assault which they promised to repeat ‘again and again’. What exactly should have been the Israeli response to this pogrom? Should they simply have abandoned the south of the country and waited for Hamas to carry out further murderous incursions? At what point would Israel have been justified in taking steps to eliminate the threat of Hamas? When they had the capacity to kill five thousand, ten thousand, a hundred thousand?The loss of life in Gaza is undoubtedly tragic, most of it due to the fact that Hamas deliberately use the civilian population as human shields. Indeed Hamas openly welcome the death of civilians, treating them as martyrs who can serve to incite condemnation of Israel from beyond the grave. It is perfectly true that thousands of innocent people, especially children, have died in Gaza, but unfortunately that is what happens when one country declares war on another, which is what Hamas did on October 7. I am afraid that when in 2006 the people of Gaza voted for a party whose declared aim was the elimination of the State of Israel and the extermination of its Jewish population, they signed a pact with the devil, just as the Germans did in 1933 when they voted for the Nazis.

Steven Rose ● 65d