Forum Topic

The Smoking Ban

I am trying to understand where/how exactly the government intend to ban smoking, but I think they should bear in mind some people NEED to smoke.  I am thinking, in particular, of people suffering from mental illness.  It can be the most important thing in their life.

Martine Guy ● 798d98 Comments

I think the Margaret Thatcher portrait is definitely a story planted as a distraction to the current issues.I suspect this may be too, but there again you never know.It used to be said that smoking in moderation helped some severe cases of IBS too but let's assume there are no benefits for any condition. We still know that smoking outside in a pub garden for example is better for smokers than smoking indoors in the living room for example.Pubs etc have invested in solutions to keep their customers that do smoke. Although as a non-smoker who's parents smoked I would prefer everywhere to be smoked free it may be the case that quite a few pubs will close. I'm happy for pubs or other private establishments to make the call on their gardens.For communal and public areas perhaps a minimal distance from entrances etc will suffice, mainly to prevent the doorway smokers.But I just think there are much more important things that need addressing.Let's enforce the laws we already have before creating new.

Ed Robinson ● 798d

I agree, Ed, I think it is a distraction.  Why have the government decided this is an issue?
Where are the mental health professionals in this?  Why aren’t they speaking out about the need for some of their patients to smoke?  

Martine Guy ● 798d

I agree Ed.  Everyone has conveniently forgotten exactly who sanctioned the pass for the Labour donor eg nothing to see here.  Whatever you do don’t mention the scandal of the Labour Ilford South MP reported by the BBC today.  Media scrutiny comes with being in Government.Martine what on earth will our European friends many who smoke far more than we do make of this.  Of course it won’t work, why don’t we try it first at the House of Commons and see how that goes.  Or is it another case of do as l say not as l do.  More worrying is the Jess Phillips story.  I have seen in Chelsea & Westminster Hospital on the ground floor rear toilets “Free Palestine” and “From the River to the Sea” scrawled on the inside of toilets doors.  Funny that l thought NHS facilities were available to all but clearly if you happen to be the wrong religion you can get abused or preferential treatment.  Where does that figure in their Hippocratic oath.If it is staff they should be sacked.  Scrutiny is tough but the public deserve a Government that governs for the whole of the country not just North London.

Robert Wheeler ● 798d

I think those of us old enough to remember when everyone seemed to smoke, realises how far we have come in reducing/stopping smoking.  Both my parents smoked when I was a child: my dad gave it up but my mum NEEDED to smoke.  
The government seems to be proposing to hurt some of the most vulnerable people in society.  It is cruel.  The most able and powerful in society deciding to deprive the powerless and weak. I had a real problem finding a carehome for my mum, who smoked for 70 years, even one who allowed smoking outside.  
Why is this one of the first things the government is dealing with when knife crime is a huge problem? Robert, I agree about the C&W.

Martine Guy ● 798d

Also, how are they going to enforce any ban?  What happens to people caught smoking in a banned location? I think this idea has been thought up by the upper middle class Labour elite of north London who have no idea how the other half live.

Martine Guy ● 798d

"I have seen in Chelsea & Westminster Hospital on the ground floor rear toilets “Free Palestine” and “From the River to the Sea” scrawled on the inside of toilets doors.  Funny that l thought NHS facilities were available to all but clearly if you happen to be the wrong religion you can get abused or preferential treatment.  Where does that figure in their Hippocratic oath.If it is staff they should be sacked." It can't be staff, Mr Wheeler. Although you say that it was scrawled, if it were a doctor surely it would be totally illegible.

David Ainsworth ● 798d

Stupid comment get some intelligence if problems are not acknowledged or recognised they can’t be resolved.

Robert Wheeler ● 798d

I'm not in favour of bans, although I think this is more an extended restriction about where one can indulge? Will there then be a move to reduce how much alcohol one can have in a pub or restaurant? Wasn't this just a leak of an internal discussion?Certainly a distraction, like the Thatcher portrait one - who cares about that other than the Daily Mail - didn't they break that story?Anyway, bans never work; the black market gang always gain creating more criminal activity in an illicit, unregulated market. Regulation of quality, consistency and distribution coupled with taxation to disincentivize use seems a better approach?Interesting to see recently in a Minneapolis cafe/restaurant that the menu had a section for THC drinks. Not something for people with jet lag, but demonstrates a difference in attitudes about substances across the world? And difficulties in agreeing concensus of how to deal with a variety of substances that some want to consume?

Michael Ixer ● 798d

Just searched on the internet for some back up to what I am saying.  People with depression and schizophrenia are more likely to smoke.  As I said before, why are the psychiatric profession not speaking out on this.  There are poor souls who need to smoke, they just can’t give up, it’s impossible.

Martine Guy ● 798d

"if problems are not acknowledged or recognised they can’t be resolved."Which particular problem and how would you resolve it?

David Ainsworth ● 798d

Martine, Labour is not planning to ban smoking. So people who are unable to give up or who need to smoke because of depression would still be able to smoke in their own homes. The proposal is to ban smoking in public spaces such as beer gardens and small parks. Labour politicians  have spoken about the need to cut the number of people dying each year from smoking related diseases and to reduce the burden on the NHS. This is an admirable ambition but it is not clear how banning smoking in beer gardens and parks, where the danger of passive inhalation is not really a factor, will help achieve it.

Steven Rose ● 798d

You also see men or women with problems sitting on the benches in Lacy Rd or Upper Rich Rd. they smoke, also office workers and at the bus garage smoke outside. I used to smoke about 35 yrs ago, but not at work only perhaps in the evening, so easy for me to give up. But I'm really glad you don't have it in pubs or cafe's etc. because the smell on your clothes after a do at the Boat Club everything smelt clothes hair. Perhaps just make it in a certain area in  pub garden etc.

Barbara Stevens ● 797d

Good to see a rational response to the proposed ban, some of the stuff posted here has been completely OTP: nowhere is it suggested in this proposal that people will be stopped from smoking altogether, just in places where it will affect others. How will the ban be implemented? Exatly as the ban on smoking inside pubs was implemented: after a small outcry then it was not just accepted but welcomed by many who hate the stink of second-hand smoke.As to the effects of second hand smoke, the CDC  in the USA summarises:* There is no safe level of exposure to secondhand smoke.* People who do not smoke but who are exposed to secondhand smoke, even for a short time, can suffer harmful health effects.https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/secondhand-smoke/health.html

Richard Carter ● 797d

I think the question is whether smoking in beer gardens and parks is a cause of passive smoking. I am not sure that the evidence supports this. I suspect that the government believes that simply reducing the opportunities to smoke will reduce the number of smokers. I am not sure there is any evidence to support this either.  Smoking is in any case a dying habit, if you will excuse the pun. Over half the adult  population in the nineteen seventies were smokers whereas the figure now is around 12%. It is a dangerous habit but there must be a limit to the extent which any government can interfere with personal liberty. Alcohol and obesity are also killers. But would the government ban the consumption  of beer and chips in open spaces?

Steven Rose ● 797d

"It is a dangerous habit but there must be a limit to the extent which any government can interfere with personal liberty. Alcohol and obesity are also killers. But would the government ban the consumption  of beer and chips in open spaces?"I think that you know why. Surely the smell of chip fat and stale beer are non-lethal?

David Ainsworth ● 797d

Not to do with cigs, but years ago, you wouldn't see people walking down the road eating. Might after a night club late at night from a takeaway.

Barbara Stevens ● 797d

Steven, thanks for correcting me I should have called it the Outdoor Smoking Ban. I don’t smoke and have worked in offices where people have been chain smokers.  I don’t like the smell and wouldn’t want someone smoking in my home.  
However, there are some people who NEED to smoke.  It is to do with the medicine they take and the effect it has on them.  As I understand it, they will ban smoking outside hospitals, so will an inpatient at Springfield Psychiatric Hospital be able to sit in the grounds and smoke?  
I’ve seen patients smoking on the pavement outside C&W and outpatients at St Mary’s smoking in the carpark.  Does this really harm anyone passing by?  I don’t think so. As for carehomes, it’s really hard to find ones that will take a smoker.  The ones that do, only allow smoking in the garden, will that still be allowed?

Martine Guy ● 797d

I thought most people had moved on to vaping from smoking cigarettes now?  That was being prescribed as a better alternative to smoking tobacco but it seems that schoolchildren are now getting addicted to candy flavoured vapes and there doesn't seem to be a way to ensure the contents of vapes are legal and uncontaminated and so much is bought online.  These can cause respiratory damage and consultants have been warning about the increasing numbers of youngsters they are seeing..I was told smoking slows down recovery from surgery and other illnesses as well as csusing and contributing to lung cancer, respiratory illnesses, heart conditions and dementia.  Well just about everything!  The ban on indoor smoking made so many places accessible to asthmatics and it was so good to no longer have to wash your hair and all your clothes after a night out.  Smokers just can't smell it!It's just horrible having smoke drifting across your food when you're eating and I would have thought that there has been such a huge increase in eating outside since the pandemic that it was time to think about further restrictions.  In fact some restaurants and cafes have already done this.

Philippa Bond ● 797d

"years ago, you wouldn't see people walking down the road eating. Might after a night club late at night from a takeaway." Would have seen me. Pasty/pasties after a pub/pubs late at night (10.30pm) from a chippy.

David Ainsworth ● 797d

Mr RoseI hope you do not mind me addressing you as such ?'In 2022 there were 135,480 road traffic casualties of all severities including killed or seriously injured'A good basis for banning the use of cars and motor bikes as well as eating chips and having a pint or even a smoke in an open space ?!Liberty and freedom of choice providing it does not affect others or "Save the NHS" ?

John Hawkes ● 797d

Philippa, I am guessing vaping has replaced cigarettes for the younger generation, but I can tell you it doesn’t replace cigarettes for the older generation who have smoked for most of their lives. As regards outdoor seating for restaurants, maybe there should be separate areas for smokers if there is enough room.  I don’t think anyone doubts smoking is bad for you, but I think you will never stop people smoking. Where will they try to ban it next?  On the street?  

Martine Guy ● 797d

Yes David, you are probably right, after Saturday morning pictures in Sheen, Chips. Or White Hart Lane chip shop all gone now. Or Lacy Road Chip Shop.  I was thinking more of people walking along eating a sandwich. Thinking of the 50's and 60's.

Barbara Stevens ● 797d

I think that cans of "shandy" to take away and drink whereever rather shocked me when first seen.

David Ainsworth ● 797d

Always remember the takeaway on the Upper Rich Rd, nearly opposite the new Post Office. Lovely spare ribs and chips and onion. Been shut a long time now, near the small shoe menders, would come out of the Fox and Hounds and get the spare ribs really done well. I can nearly taste them.

Barbara Stevens ● 797d

Australia seems to have a way of managing outside smoking in hospitality establishments ...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqxjd1lr5lro

Michael Ixer ● 797d

If I had my way smoking would be completely banned, everywhere.  That's your lot.com! 😸

Sue Hammond ● 797d

I agree! And I agreed with Sinai’s proposal on this

Jane Carter ● 797d

Surely the failed experiment of Prohibition in America illustrates the folly of trying to ban entirely the use of a substance to which large numbers of people are addicted.

Steven Rose ● 797d

I'd agree with you, Steven. Prohibition of anything just fuels a criminal black market. Better to regulate, educate, treat, tax, etc ... 

Michael Ixer ● 797d

Treat? Government funded adult size dummies perhaps? Pacifiers work for babies so why not for sdults?  Only (half) joking ...

Sue Hammond ● 797d

Sorry Sunak not Sinai

Jane Carter ● 797d

Sue. I thought someone would pick up on that! But treatment for addictions - hypnosis for smokers, therapy for alcoholism and drug addiction, or safe places where addicts can take drugs are important to treat addicts and save their lives. 

Michael Ixer ● 797d

I think there's a lot of alcohol and cigarette smuggling going on anyway.

Philippa Bond ● 797d

Sure, Prohibition failed,  but that's irrelevant here since no one is advocating a complete ban, just restrictions on people imposing their harmful and unpleasant smoke on others.

Richard Carter ● 796d

Pubs are private enterprises I do not see how they factor in to imposing harmful smoke."Sorry for being late dear the pub imposed a couple of harmful and unpleasant pints on my way home!"There are secondary smoking casualties but these are mainly children living in smoking households, where oddly enough this ban has no impact.It always amazes me that people have no distinction for what is private and what is public in the UK. We treat public as if it were private and vice versa. The blurring dates back to Thatcher IMO.

Ed Robinson ● 796d

Ed. Some would say passive smoking in the workplace, before that ban was imposed, had some casualties:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Castle

Michael Ixer ● 796d

Michael, we are talking about imposing a ban on smoking in pub gardens where the stuff served over the counter is far more of an health issue to both staff and visitors than the passive smoking from the garden.So unless there is a health risk to staff from passive smoke in the garden it seems like Labour are just blowing...

Ed Robinson ● 796d

Labour could ban smoking in all Social Housing.It may take time to apply to new tenants or where tenancy agreements expire. I leave that to lawyers, but I believe this is a common clause in private rental agreements.We know that children in homes where adults smoke are at risk. I'm fairly certain that noone will dispute that. After all what can be more important than the health of children?So why doesn't Labour do that?The reason why is this has nothing to do about health.I suspect either some Labour control freak got annoyed with someone smoking in a pub and thought they would use their position to fix what is to most of us non-smokers a nuisance or simply it's just another distraction story.

Ed Robinson ● 796d

Perhaps it is "Reconnaissance by fire". Testing the boundaries.Or maybe distraction, of course.

David Ainsworth ● 796d

I'm not sure the desire to restrict smoking is a party political issue these days. Sunak seemed disappointed his law got lost because of the election ...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-69058303.ampYes, changing rental agreements for social housing is an option, but is one then targeting some of the poorest in society? 

Michael Ixer ● 796d

I'm not sure the desire to restrict smoking is a party political issue these days. Sunak seemed disappointed his law got lost because of the election ...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-69058303.ampYes, changing rental agreements for social housing is an option, but is one then targeting some of the poorest in society? 

Michael Ixer ● 796d

We know that children in homes where adults smoke are at risk. I'm fairly certain that noone will dispute that. After all what can be more important than the health of children?So why doesn't Labour do that?The reason why is this has nothing to do about health.Presumably you mean why doesn’t labour ban smoking in homes where there are children? 1 probably because such a ban would be unenforceable. Much better to educate, reward etc2 it has everything to do with health. As other posters have pointed out, large numbers die of smoking related diseases, tragic for them, their families and a huge burden on the NHS. It may be difficult to enforce a ban in parks but stopping smoking in restaurant and pub gardens seems perfectly sensible.3 this issue is broader than party politics and point scoring. Sunak’s tobacco and vapes bill was an excellent proposal and a pity it ran out of time.

Jane Carter ● 796d

These were already a proposed law before the change in Government and also proposed in Australia and New Zealand.  Smoking causes a tremendous number of health problems - as can be shown by the difficulty people have in giving it up and why nicotine vapes were so avidly encouraged by health care visitors when they visited pregnant mothers.  They are a really good and very successful way for many to get rid of the tobacco habit. Unfortunately the problems of the huge take-up of vaping not by those trying to give up but by children has caused yet another problem with children becoming addicted to whatever is in them - which varies and is often targeted at children with flavours such as bubblegum.  Children are taking time out of lessons to go and vape and vaping is causing lung problems for many of them.https://www.nhs.uk/better-health/quit-smoking/vaping-to-quit-smoking/vaping-myths-and-the-facts/#:~:text=Nicotine%20vaping%20is%20not%20risk-free,%20but%20it

Philippa Bond ● 796d

European Respiratory Journal:https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/55/5/2000413

Philippa Bond ● 796d

It seems Labour supports do not want to ban smoking in homes with children despite the evidence to the harm it causes and the WHO recommendations.It can't be done they say - I suggest that the government have no real appetite to tackle the issue of young children being harmed. All spin and let someone else do the heavy lifting. But who knew som many were supporters of Sunak?Finland: "Among other recommendations, it proposed that anautomatic smoking ban should be included in new rental agreements.."https://zww.who.int/docs/librariesprovider2/default-document-library/smokefree-homes-fs-policy-makers.pdf?sfvrsn=6624b74e_3&download=true

Ed Robinson ● 796d

Ed, can't get that link to work. Has Finland implemented that unlawful? I'm just wondering what the sanction would be for breaching the no smoking clause - make the family homeless?

Michael Ixer ● 796d

This is 1 October 2015 in the UK & Wales - so nearly 10 years ago:https://www.gov.uk/government/news/smoking-in-cars-with-children-banned-from-todayInterestingly enough all the teenagers I knew never smoked in our house or anybody else's and all - if they smoked - smoked outdoors - just as they would have done had they worked in an office or had been at the pub.

Philippa Bond ● 796d

Passive smoking kills. He believed he got it from working in smoky jazz clubs.You can give up smoking for the month of September and raise money for the Roy Castle Lung Cancer Foundation.https://www.justgiving.com/campaign/smokefree4sept?gad_source=5&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxti_jsOiiAMVHS0GAB0pmQFZEAAYBSAAEgKEvfD_BwE

Philippa Bond ● 796d

Many private rental agreements have a 'no smoking' clause.As others have suggested, in the private gardens of pubs and restaurants, the staff/owners can just as easily tell/ask people to stop smoking in the same way as they did inside all those years ago, and people soon got the idea. I have to say we tend to prefer to eat/drink indoors to avoid wafts of cigarette smoke coming our way.How to enforce this restriction among crowds outside football matches and other public gatherings, I don't know, though perhaps remarkably, smoking inside football stadia has been banned for some time.

Peter Evans ● 796d

https://www.who.int/docs/librariesprovider2/default-document-library/smokefree-homes-fs-policy-makers.pdf?sfvrsn=6624b74e_3&download=true#:~:text=Smokefree%20housing%20legislation,under%20the%20control%20of%20residents.

Philippa Bond ● 796d

https://www.finlex.fi/en/laki/kaannokset/2016/en20160549_20161374.pdf

Philippa Bond ● 796d

'Finland: "Among other recommendations, it proposed that anautomatic smoking ban should be included in new rental agreements..'I am pretty sure there is no reason such a clause cannot be put into a rental agreement now.Also I would expect that any agreement for a flat in a communal block will have such a clause for H & S reasons if no other.Ours does.As regards indoor smoking in an owner occupier house who is going to enforce such a ban ?The Stasi !?

John Hawkes ● 795d

Perhaps when this government reforms the leasehold system a ban on smoking in leasehold/commonhold properties could be included.  As Mr Hawkes say, this in a H&S issue in flats, and leases written a couple of decades or so ago can't be amended without a change in law.

Michael Ixer ● 795d

I saw 2 people smoking today.  One was nearby to me at a bus stop, the other I saw from the bus window.  He was off his head and drinking from a can, shouting out loud.Neither was doing any harm to anyone by smoking outdoors.  
Like I said above, ban smoking outdoors or in people’s own homes, and you hurt some of the most vulnerable and weak people in society.  You would deprive them of what is, to some, their only pleasure in life.  Cruel!

Martine Guy ● 795d

Totally agree Martine, where is the current evidence for this outdoor ban\curtailment.Mental health issues are far more worrying- if a cigarette calms people down leave them alone.This Government are becoming a state of banning everything.  Was any of these proposals in a manifesto.

Robert Wheeler ● 795d

Personally, I think we have reached the end of the road, for the time being, when it comes to stopping people smoking.  Why is this an issue for the new government when there are more important issue to be dealt with?
When people say ban smoking, they know they are the sort of person who would have no problem giving up because they have lots of will power and self discipline.  They can’t for a moment imagine what it is like for the people who cannot stop.  Replacing cigarettes with a vape doesn’t work. I don’t like smoking but I know that for some, it is impossible to stop.  Leave them alone!

Martine Guy ● 795d

"where is the current evidence for this outdoor ban\curtailment?"For goodness' sake, Robert  how much do you need? For example,"There is *no safe level* of passive smoking. Studies show that second-hand smoke can harm you even if you’re exposed for just a moment."https://www.health.gov.au/topics/smoking-vaping-and-tobacco/about-smoking/passive-smokingA study in Environmental Health Perspectives found that "nonsmokers exposed to brief periods of SHS in outdoor locations may be exposed to measurable concentrations of carcinogenic tobacco-specific nitrosamines such as NNK [4-(methylnitrosamino)-1-(3-pyridyl)-1-butanone]"https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404659/"Despite a gradual decline in smoking rates over time, exposure to secondhand smoke (SHS) continues to cause harm to nonsmokers, who are disproportionately children and women living in low- and middle-income countries"https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-023-02743-4And I don't accept your argument, Nartine, that in order to cater for the needs of what must be a minuscule number of people, the rest of us have to risk serious harm from their smoking. That's just not right.

Richard Carter ● 795d

So I diced with death today did I Richard, by sitting near someone smoking at a bus stop?  I realise passive smoking can hurt people, and I wouldn’t want to see smoking again on public transport or in workplaces, but I’ll take my chances in the open air. I don’t believe these are miniscule numbers of people.  I expect you don’t notice them, and they certainly aren’t the types of people who will speak out, they just accept the s**t that life throws at them.

Martine Guy ● 795d

Richard where is the evidence that smoking outdoors in beer gardens significantly damages health.The clue is outdoors.  Well said Martine all of life has risks or are we now removing the individuals choice.

Robert Wheeler ● 795d

Try reading my post before commenting on it. As to removing the individual's choice, that's exactly what you are doing by insisting on making people suffer the consequences of others' actions. Are you a freedom of choice extremist? Do you disagree with the law on wearing seat belts, for example? Or banning driving whilst under the influence of drink or drugs?

Richard Carter ● 795d

There were no studies mentioned in the links concerning outdoor passive smoking.All the passive smoking studies are for indoor smoking especially those concerning children. That's because children like most people tend to live indoors. Sometimes you have to state the obvious!So the government wants to ban outdoor smoking whilst not putting any restrictions on indoor smoking when children are present.It got it's priorities and science wrong. Ban indoor smoking when children are present and promote outdoor and giving up smoking.

Ed Robinson ● 795d

Ash (Action on Smoking & Health): ”Smoking rates among people with a mental health condition are significantly higher than in the general population and there is a strong association between smoking and mental health conditions” ”It is commonly believed that people with a mental health condition use tobacco to self medicate” ”Smokers with a mental health condition tend to be more heavily addicted to smoking” I strongly agree with the second point that people with a mental health condition use tobacco to self medicate.

Martine Guy ● 795d

"There were no studies mentioned in the links concerning outdoor passive smoking."

Richard Carter ● 795d

@ Richard the operative word of the study is “maybe” so not definitive.  Certainly not evidence of serious risk.My wife was amused you found me a freedom of choice extremist but neither of us agrees with you.  Very boring Putney residents who abide by the rules!  You simply have to stop labelling everyone who disagrees with you.

Robert Wheeler ● 795d

Yes 'maybe' is a qualifier, but you should remember the precautionary principle.And I did not "label" you an extremist but simply asked the question with "Are you a freedom of choice extremist?" following up with questions about seatbelts and drink driving. There is a clear difference there which your answer skated through. I'm happy to accept, anyway, that you're law-abiding, but not that that is boring.

Richard Carter ● 795d

I  have not seen any evidence to support the assertion that even  a momentary sniff of someone’s cigarette smoke can be harmful. The NHS states that ‘regular’ exposure to  secondhand smoke is  harmful and advisers smokers to smoke outside. So I don’t see any justification for banning smoking in parks or in beer gardens.  But  I think there is a case for banning cigarettes at tables outside a restaurant where tables are closely spaced together. Even if the smoke isn’t harmful in these situations, it is certainly annoying.

Steven Rose ● 795d

Someone was smoking on the bench by the parklet on the corner of Charlwood Rd and URR today, when I walked by. Doesn’t bother me but will smoking on outdoor benches, like this, be banned too?

Martine Guy ● 795d

I've seen smoking in a room with small children being considered as child abuse but that I think was in the States and not the UK.  Most people smoke outside when children are around or out the window or on a balcony but smoke permeates clothing and so this hasn't proved to be as much of a solution as it might initially have been thought to be.

Philippa Bond ● 795d

The Australians have done a lot of research on helping those with mental health problems to reduce and give up smoking tobacco.  Here about two-thirds of those who take up vaping instead of smoking cigarettes manage to stop smoking tobacco.  It obviously helps if there is a lot of support eg a group.  I believe the NHS still offers stop-smoking programmes.  I bet you can save a lot more money now than I did years ago!  Many of us smoked as teenagers and then gave up.  https://www.nhs.uk/better-health/quit-smoking/personal-quit-plan/

Philippa Bond ● 795d

Philippa, I laughed out loud at your post.  The usual naive lecturing.  You obviously have never met anyone with serious mental illness.  Stop smoking groups, ha, ha, ha!  If only real life were so easy.  

Martine Guy ● 795d

She only need look in the mirror Martine.Note I spelt your name correctly unlike Mr Carter who once again  has resorted to his silly name calling by replying twice to your posts using Nartine as your name. A weak play on Nicotine I think.Par for Mr Carters course.

Andy Pike ● 795d

'N' is next to 'M' on the PC keyboard, Mr Pike. Not everybody can keyboard without an error. The "replying twice" is some sort of screen image of the first posting, and so not actually typing twice.

David Ainsworth ● 795d

As David has said: simple typing errors caused by using a phone not a proper keyboard. Get over yourself, Andy.

Richard Carter ● 795d

Once of course is probably a mistake but to do it in separate posts and with your form for silly name  calling I'll stick with my interpretation.

Andy Pike ● 795d

"Once of course is probably a mistake but to do it in separate posts and with your form for silly name  calling I'll stick with my interpretation."As I wrote:- The "replying twice" is some sort of screen image of the first posting, and so not actually typing twice. Do you see what it is yet?

David Ainsworth ● 795d

Andy, thanks for pointing it out and spelling my name correctly.  As I used to be a secretary, I thought it might be a typo because of m and n being next to each other on the keyboard.

Martine Guy ● 795d

"As I used to be a secretary, I thought it might be a typo because of m and n being next to each other on the keyboard."Well, you must be wrong, Ms Guy. Mr Pike knows better than you, me, and Mr Carter too. Mr Pike never mistypes, as we know.

David Ainsworth ● 795d

But I do regularly its Mr Carter who never mistypes.

Andy Pike ● 794d

I often look back on something I have already posted, then realize it's to late to change. But you can easily, apologize and then say sorry I meant Martine. I also typed for years, even pages and pages copy typing at ICL. But even a computer keyboard, isn't the same as a typewriter. To type really fast was easier on typewriter, I even used a Supertype how many older people can remember them. As you typed it produced a tape with holes in, if you made a mistake you had to try and find which hole it was an put  piece of sellotape over it.  Then you saved the tape in a box  for when you needed the same letter again.  All you had to do then was put another name and address at the top.  I learnt this at J.Lyons, Cadby Hall in the 60's. Who also had one of the 1st computers, Leo.  I'm sure Andy will be able to be more detailed on the computer.

Barbara Stevens ● 794d

I do remember the LEO computer but I wS fascinated as a youngster by the girls on the supertype machines.I recall we had 4 in the sales ledger office who spent all day typing in invoice details from batches all over the country. Twice a day it was my job , as the junior, to take the tapes to Elms House computer room for inputting.  Each morning we would receive a print out containing any anomalies ( data vet) and then have to look up and correct them on a separate firm. It was always impressive the relatively few anomalies there were considering the thousands of items of data on those tapes.Those girls were truly impressive workers. ( Wendy, Josie,Pat and Sue if i recall correctly)

Andy Pike ● 794d

Andy, think those machines were todo with accounts, the supertype tape came out like a paper tape measure, with all little holes in each hole represented a letter. So you could keep putting the tape in the machine and it would type the same letter without you having to.  Also my Aunt was in charge in one of the offices in Elms House. The buildings were massive when you where young they even had their own hospital if you cut yourself etc. I was Blyth Rd end of the offices, and there was a little elderly man who asked what floor did you want in the lift with a curled up moustache. I was in the Tea Division. When I first started there I used to add up hundreds of invoices on an adding machine, got a bit fed up doing that so asked as I could type if I could go to a different department.

Barbara Stevens ● 794d

Also, as this was a subject on smoking, I was 16 and about 5 of us sat in an office I was the youngest, I had to use a ready reckoner to add up as well. But the Controller in charge used to smoke all day, but the lady never took the cig out of her mouth she would lift the ashtray up and knock the ash off. It will stay in my mind for ever.

Barbara Stevens ● 794d

"But I do regularly its Mr Carter who never mistypes."So, for you, Mr Carter is a good typist, but also a liar?

David Ainsworth ● 794d

Good morning David trust you slept well and have some interesting plans for today.

Andy Pike ● 794d

Google Comptometer, is this the computer you meant. It might be this machine for Accounts years ago. I know another Aunt taught this and typing at J.Lyons.  You might remember Andy.

Barbara Stevens ● 794d

It wasnt that one Barbara.it used to produce reels of punch tape for the computer itself.I Remember when Cadby shut and I was working in the Yorkshire office having to drive the tapes to London ( thankfully weekly by then) for the first few months until they sorted out electronic transfer.LEO (Lyons Electronic Office) was utilised by Ford Dagenham and many other companies. Unfortunately the world was not ready for a baker making computers and so the LEO company was sold off to English Electric (later to be ICL). Ironically Lyons eventually replaced LEO with an IBM system.

Andy Pike ● 794d

More computing history on the Putney Forum :-) I once knew someone who worked for BT as a LEO application programmer in the early 70s. Think she worked with a COBOL like language called CLEO, and was a smoker - attempting to keep this on topic!

Michael Ixer ● 794d

I too was a smoker when young and foolish. Took a while to stop and then about 20 years ago I started again ( god knows why) pleased to say that 11 years ago I managed to stop relatively easily,  but there are days when I could easily smoke again... but I wont.When younger everyone in my social group were smokers but when I look at my sons current soccer team none of them smoke. Times have changed for the better.On the issue of outside smoking I'm relatively relaxed about it. If it bothers me I'll move but generally its pretty rare ( in my experience)  in an outside eating area for folk to smoke anyway.If they ban it altogether there will be another massive black hole to fill as the benefits to the health service will take many years to filter through the system.

Andy Pike ● 794d

.Personally, I think we have reached the end of the road, for the time being, when it comes to stopping people smoking.  Why is this an issue for the new government when there are more important issue to be dealt with?.Yes indeed.For instance Kier Starmer and the 'Culture' Secretary ensuring that the sale of tickets for a 'pop' concert are properly regulated and the price not left to the free market."Rock on Labour" !

John Hawkes ● 794d

Thank you Andy, nearly all my older relations had worked there years. Already passed away years. My Supertype was only for letters, as I typed the tape came out, then I put in a small cardboard box, so I could use the same letter again. ICL had the Supertype, I typed letter for the Head Boss. But also on the ordinary typewriter in the typing pool for overseas visitors.  We all typed piles and piles of typing, as we were copy typists, we talked at the same time, don't ask me how.

Barbara Stevens ● 794d

"If they ban it altogether there will be another massive black hole to fill as the benefits to the health service will take many years to filter through the system."As a cynic and a pessimist, I am trying to work out if there will be real benefits to the health service over time anyway.

David Ainsworth ● 794d

Yes Michael, I had to type words like COBOL etc. didn't know what half of them were about. We also had rather large carriages on the computer for larger sheets of paper.

Barbara Stevens ● 794d

Mr Hawkes.  The move towards eradicating smoking was also on the previous government's agenda:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-69053763.ampI suppose for both parties it's a useful distraction from the economy?All I can say is that the Oasis concert ticket rip-off prices make one realise what excellent value the BBC Proms tickets at the RAH are!

Michael Ixer ● 794d

'As to removing the individual's choice, that's exactly what you are doing by insisting on making people suffer the consequences of others' actions'. All freedom of choice is a balance between the often legitimate desires of people with competing points of view.Majority opinion will get behind the banning of indubitable examples of behaviour that have no redeeming features and cause obvious danger to others such as driving whilst drunk or reducing child car accidents by the fitting and use of specialised seat belts. But on this issue, where the balance of benefit or enjoyment for some versus the avoidable and minor if any effect on others, Labour believes it knows best, so there !Petty.If Labour is so concerned about the effect of smoking I would expect to see the banning of the sale of tobacco products in a Bill brought before the HoC or committed in its next election manifesto.

John Hawkes ● 794d

In the mid-1950s, the Morgan Crucible Company of Battersea had an early computer in their factory. It was an "HEC4 Electronic Computer designed by the British Tabulating Machine Co (later becoming ICT and then ICL - who re-named it the ICT 1201)".It cost £30,000 c.1955. That is £629,601.61 now, apparently. Seems cheap.https://web.archive.org/web/20140419062144/http://www.vk2bv.org/sb/hec4.htm(If this link doesn't work, try switching the PC on and off at the wall socket) (joke)(If this link doesn't work, I won't be surprised) (no joke)

David Ainsworth ● 794d

'Note I spelt your name correctly unlike Mr Carter who once again  has resorted to his silly name calling by replying twice to your posts using Nartine as your name. A weak play on Nicotine I think.Par for Mr Carters course'.But he's such a card isn't he !

John Hawkes ● 794d

''N' is next to 'M' on the PC keyboard, Mr Pike. Not everybody can keyboard without an error. The "replying twice" is some sort of screen image of the first posting, and so not actually typing twice'.And a pedant !

John Hawkes ● 794d

I hope that you are proud, Mr Pike. You've set him off now!

David Ainsworth ● 794d