Forum Topic

Notting Hill Carnage

The annual drugs-and-stab fest has ended but with the inevitable shameful criminality and carnage:'Police reveal more Notting Hill Carnival carnage with more than 330 people now arrested, while there have been eight stabbings leaving three people fighting for their lives - including a 32-year-old mother who was there with her child.Officers recovered firearms at the festival and during a traffic stop in Harrow involving individuals believed to be on their way to Notting Hill.And 35 officers were injured as they were deployed in their thousands to monitor the annual street party - for which local businesses board up windows in anticipation of the chaos that accompanies it every year.Monday's Notting Hill Carnival arrests in full 49 x possession of an offensive weapon37 x assault on an emergency worker8 x sexual offences9 x violence with injury15 x other violencePolice have confirmed that a total of 104 arrests were made on Sunday - 18 of which were for possession of an offensive weapon. 18 officers were also assaulted in ugly scenes On Monday, another 230 arrests were made for a variety of offences - the majority for possession of an offensive weapon, possession of class B drugs and assault on an emergency worker.A handful of sexual offences, violence and theft crimes were also reported and arrests made.'Time to end, or at least move this shameful event to a large open area such as Hyde Park where it can be policed more effectively. I trust all the arrested offenders will be fast-tracked through the Courts like the recent JSO offenders? The criminal 'stabbers' should receive an immediate custodial sentence of 5 years, in my opinion. https://mol.im/a/13781517

Sue Hammond ● 61d65 Comments

ohhhh. so it's ok if only one person gets killed?gotcha.also erm "across civilizations" - Are you sure previous civilisations used the same calendar as us? I don't rememeber reading about the Mayans, ancient greeks, Egyptians etc all making a big deal about Jan 31st?

Michael Brigo ● 56d

"how about New years eve?"The London NYE fireworks is already ticket only."Remember, if you want to be there on the night, you must have a ticket – otherwise you won't get in."https://nye.london.gov.uk/

Ed Robinson ● 56d

@Michael BrigoExactly how many were stabbed on NYE, and were they all in London? I know of only one, the 16 year old schoolboy attacked on Primrose Hill.The celebration of New Year's Eve on December 31st has deep historical roots, intertwined with various cultural and religious practices across civilizations. So good luck with banning that one! Ridiculous analogy.🙄

Sue Hammond ● 56d

how about New years eve? I believe a number of people were stabbed at the 2023 celebrations, should we also be banning NYE?

Michael Brigo ● 56d

Satire? No. Truth!https://www.facebook.com/share/v/7CDahufXPSAKZyLf/?mibextid=UalRPS

Sue Hammond ● 56d

Double Notting Hill tragedy as chef who worked with Gordon Ramsay and mother, 32, who was stabbed in front of her toddler daughter both die of injuries sustained in separate carnival attacks.

Sue Hammond ● 56d

I'm sure Mr Musk would approve of the lack of moderators on this forum. The usual veering off topic, perhaps there needs to be a separate thread on Putney Forun etiquette? :-)(Still, at least Brazil's top judge hasn't ordered the blocking of this site ...)

Michael Ixer ● 56d

Me too.

David Ainsworth ● 56d

'You missed boring, or an attention seeker'.If people thus described were stopped or inhibited from posting on this Forum there would be nothing on it !

John Hawkes ● 56d

I can see that.

David Ainsworth ● 57d

Ad hominem responses have no affect on me.

John Hawkes ● 57d

Ad hominem responses have no affect on me.

John Hawkes ● 57d

You missed boring, or an attention seeker.

Barbara Stevens ● 57d

Young or clever?

David Ainsworth ● 57d

Dear Johnnie, a lot on the forum know I worked with all men for 10 years and I was the only woman at Peugeot ordering vehicles. So as I have said silly comments don't bother me or men. So your stupid comments are typical of a young man trying to be clever, but your not.

Barbara Stevens ● 57d

Dear old thing, are you you referring to everybody on here or just me.

Barbara Stevens ● 57d

"it should be held away from public thoroughfares so the general public are not bothered by it."A million people over 2 days are the general public.

David Ainsworth ● 57d

yep. a voice of reason there. 1.1 million. 300 arrests. for heaven's sake stop. I'm not condoning the violence but get a damn grip. have a look at how many sexual assaults there were at Leeds and Reading festivals with a turnout of 100,000 each.

Maxine Campbell ● 57d

My post to you, dear old thing, might be considered sarcastic, but it was an attempt to be light hearted -  which obviously failed.I use the aforementioned Mr, Ms etc before a surname as a courtesy and a sign of respect towards male and female fellow correspondents.That's just how I was brought up I'm afraid.

John Hawkes ● 57d

"Your obviously extremely sarcastic that's why it stands out.""She was like a sinking ship firing on the rescuers."(Alexander Woollcott)

David Ainsworth ● 57d

Your obviously extremely sarcastic that's why it stands out.

Barbara Stevens ● 58d

How do you make it clear which particular post you are responding to if you do not refer to the name of the poster ?I was brought up to show respect in responding to a stranger by the use of Mr, Miss, Mrs (in the old days) or later Ms.I am sorry to see I have upset your sensitivity.Can I address you as 'Duckie', 'Sweetheart', 'Luv', Darling' ?What do you prefer ?

John Hawkes ● 58d

John why do you keep putting Ms Stevens or Ms Hammond, as though you are talking down to us. We know what we have put on the Forum you don't need to remind us.

Barbara Stevens ● 58d

Ms StevensRegarding the Notting Hill Carnival -'The young lady stabbed, has a collapsed lung and now might have to have both legs amputated'.And of course the other stabbings, assaults and attacks on police.Its defenders might quote American comedian Bob Newhart.“Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?”

John Hawkes ● 58d

The young lady stabbed , has a collapsed lung and now might have to have both legs amputated.  That's somebodies daughter and grandchild.

Barbara Stevens ● 58d

Mr Ainsworth'If we are not to accept that there will always be some crime at the Carnival, then what are we to do about the situation?'Firmer policing for a start.This is what stamped out football hooliganism.But why do we have to accept that this carnival is of itself so wonderous and should be encouraged, especially with its long history of violence and crime ?I personally do not regard it as a great 'British tradition'.But then perhaps I am a bit of a curmudgeon and can recall when London was not the 'great example of multi-cultural diversity' that leftist politicians and especially Mayor Khan exhort me to relish.Do other ethnic groups organise such massive events on the streets - except of course the pro-Palestinian lobby who seem to have gone quiet of late.Perhaps all of the students and especially those from the SOAS have gone away for the holidays.But if the carnival is going to be a fixture of British culture and a nice little earner for the Met Police, then it should be held away from public thoroughfares so the general public are not bothered by it.It has been suggested that Hyde Park would be a suitable replacement venue.The attendees could then be checked and fenced in and thence supervised; knives and other weapons could be confiscated; and those others with a record of violence kept out, using facial recognition technology if necessary.

John Hawkes ● 58d

Emma, I couldn't find stats on stabbings at Reading festival. One back in 2017 not clear if it was inside or outside.

Ed Robinson ● 59d

Emma, my son went to the Reading Festival for 4 nights.  He said he saw no trouble at all. I was a bit worried until I read on a newspaper that it was all sex, drugs and debauchery and then me and my husband decided we ought to buy tickets and join in the fun! Just joking! I think Reading is very popular with kids who have just done GCSEs and my son bumped into someone he knows from Putney.  

Martine Guy ● 59d

For me this is an issue, and if we are talking about events then I’m surprised it’s not been mentionedhttps://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/aug/17/appalling-conviction-rate-for-over-100-sexual-offences-at-leeds-and-reading-festivalsIt’s also on the rise at Glastonbury along with other crimesThere were stabbings at Reading festival tooAll these events have much fewer people, so the % is higherOr are assaults against women ok?

Emma Blackwell ● 59d

Perhaps communicating in Guardian may help!Ignore the fact that the headline/article appears to give equal value to various types of crime. The "number of crimes committed.."What we are talking about is serious crime, people beings stabbed to death.Skip the blurb and Sherlock has a point that has probably been made for decades: "Consideration should be given to changing the location to Hyde Park, or somewhere that is more open, to assist in policing it more effectively."Headline and link below:"Millions loved the Notting Hill carnival but we need less crime."https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/aug/27/notting-hill-carnival-crime-cop-critics-met-police

Ed Robinson ● 59d

@Carole Tanner 
However the stabbings, the violence- particularly against the police, GBH, sexual assaults, drug offences, theft etc have been going on for decades and it's clear the event cannot be policed effectively. This has always been the case, but made so much worse now the number of attendees is so huge. The ridiculous softly-softly treatment by the police has exacerbated the problems, so much so they have now been ordered not to dance or be involved in other antics:
'Met top brass clamp down after years of officers cavorting with revellers led to 'two-tier policing' claims - ordering bobbies not to 'embarrass' the force and banning 'dancing or other antics'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13781569/scotland-yard-notting-hill-carnival-officers-dance-embarrassing.html
I refuse to call this event a carnival because the word is associated with a happy joyful occasion. Try telling that to the deceaseds' family and loved ones. Or the traders who have to close and board up their premises for safety reasons and subsequently lose their income. Or all the residents who move out temporarily to escape the chaos, the incessant loud noise and the disgusting mess.
Just heard an update on the young woman who was critically stabbed, she is now in a coma and she may have to undergo a leg amputation if she survives.🙁

Sue Hammond ● 59d

@Carole Tanner 
However the stabbings, the violence- particularly against the police, GBH, sexual assaults, drug offences, theft etc have been going on for decades and it's clear the event cannot be policed effectively. This has always been the case, but made so much worse now the number of attendees is so huge. The ridiculous softly-softly treatment by the police has exacerbated the problems, so much so they have now been ordered not to dance or be involved in other antics:
'Met top brass clamp down after years of officers cavorting with revellers led to 'two-tier policing' claims - ordering bobbies not to 'embarrass' the force and banning 'dancing or other antics'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13781569/scotland-yard-notting-hill-carnival-officers-dance-embarrassing.html
I refuse to call this event a carnival because the word is associated with a happy joyful occasion. Try telling that to the deceaseds' amily and loved ones. Or to all the local traders who have to close and board up their premises resulting in loss of income. Or all the local residents who don't feel safe and move out of their homes to avoid the chaos and deafening noise and the disgusting mess the 'revellers' make.

Sue Hammond ● 59d

"8 people were stabbed at last years NHF, as the Tories did nothing then we can only assume they considered 8 to be reasonable?"According to the Metropolitan Police (later statistics, I think), it was 2 more in 2023. Total number of stabbings at Notting Hill Carnival for all years where such data is available (broken down by year and whether fatal or non-fatal) 2017 12 stabbings no fatal stabbings2018 7 stabbings no fatal stabbings2019 18 stabbings no fatal stabbings2022 7 stabbings including one fatal stabbing2023 10 stabbings no fatal stabbingshttps://www.met.police.uk/foi-ai/metropolitan-police/disclosure-2023/november-2023/notting-hill-carnival-data/So 8 is low average.

David Ainsworth ● 59d

Mr Rose'The reason that contributors to the Forum have sought to downplay the level of criminality is that the perpetrators (and the victims) were overwhelmingly likely to have been black'.And of course this is why 'stop and search' is implemented so circumspectly.From the Mayor's website.'Despite making up only 13% of London’s total population, black Londoners account for 45% of London’s knife murder victims, 61% of knife murder perpetrators and 53% of knife crime perpetrators.https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/assembly/commission-on-knife-crime-in-black-communityMight it be said that this is because many of the perpetrators have a cultural background where knives and their violent use are quite prevalent ?

John Hawkes ● 60d

8 people were stabbed at last years NHF, as the Tories did nothing then we can only assume they considered 8 to be reasonable?

Michael Brigo ● 60d

"Unfortunately it seems clear Starmer is out of his depth and has no idea how to fix Britain.  More reviews,  more talk of treaties and nothing concrete happening."The number of stabbings in 2024 is equal to the number in 2023.Could you refer me to the post around that time where you said (whichever prime minister it was at the time) was out of their depth?

Michael Brigo ● 60d

Ms Hammond, take a bow. Possibly your best post ever.

David Ainsworth ● 60d

"The first part of change is to accept that there is an issue, we can not get past that while people are in denial and think it is perfectly normal."As I wrote yesterday, "I don't think that anybody on here finds any number of stabbings acceptable. Who do you think does?"So people accept that there is an issue and that it is not normal. What should be the next step after that, do you think?During the pandemic there were no NH Carnivals, and thus no stabbings possible there. Would that be an idea?

David Ainsworth ● 60d

David stabbings are not "some crime".Eight people were stabbed, to stab someone you have to go pre-armed for that purpose. It's no different to shooting someone you have to have a gun.I remember arriving in the US and listening to my friend talking about the young couple murdered and listening to their explanation as to why it was just a normal thing because they didn't follow the rules thinking that they were completely mad.People on this forum are giving equally  mad explanations. We have to accept 8 stabbings it's normal for a family community event.So I will ask again, what is an acceptable number of stabbings? Would the number change if it was one of yours that was stabbed?The first part of change is to accept that there is an issue, we can not get past that while people are in denial and think it is perfectly normal.

Ed Robinson ● 60d

Most people went there to enjoy themselves, but some want to make sure you don't. Are the knife carriers insane, perhaps do not put them in prison lock them in mental homes.  The problem with this also is any fire work night or other large celebration will marred by this.

Barbara Stevens ● 60d

@Ed 27/08/24 22:47:00I couldn't be bothered to read DA's post but I guess from yours that he was being the forum idiot. Again.

Sue Hammond ● 60d

"It is meant to be a Carnival not a war zone."Six people killed in over 50 years. A war zone?"Clearly the Carnival is not safe for the people who are expected to police it or who attend it."I would have thought that it would have died out long ago if those who attend it agreed with you.

David Ainsworth ● 60d

"To treat stabbings as the same road accidents just plays to the narrative that they must be accepted."If we are not to accept that there will always be some crime at the Carnival, then what are we to do about the situation?

David Ainsworth ● 60d

There's been a change in legislation and it's now a Class C drug:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67346032.amp

Philippa Bond ● 60d

I agree Steven but Governments first priority is to keep its citizens safe.  Clearly the Carnival is not safe for the people who are expected to police it or who attend it.  It is meant to be a Carnival not a war zone.Unfortunately it seems clear Starmer is out of his depth and has no idea how to fix Britain.  More reviews,  more talk of treaties and nothing concrete happening.Don’t worry everyone will pay more but for what exactly?

Robert Wheeler ● 60d

Sorry David stabbings are not the equivalent of road deaths.To stab someone you need to have brought a weapon before the event occurs and that weapon has one purpose.To treat stabbings as the same road accidents just plays to the narrative that they must be accepted.

Ed Robinson ● 60d

I agree, Robert, that criminality is to be condemned whatever the colour or creed of the perpetrators. Unfortunately politicians have been reluctant to condemn the violence at the Carnival for fear of being accused of racism.

Steven Rose ● 60d

Sorry l don’t care what colour or religion anybody is but criminality by anybody is totally unacceptable.  Attacking police or emergency services has to be unacceptable in a civilised society.  No stabbings, no guns no sexual assaults.

Robert Wheeler ● 60d

"One wonders how many stabbings people find acceptable at a family community event this size? What if a member of their family were one of the stats?"I don't think that anybody on here finds any number of stabbings acceptable. Who do you think does? But, like in the case of lowering the number of deaths on the road, they know that zero is highly unlikely to ever be achieved."is everything possible is being done?"No, not everything possible yet.But, if only 8 people* were arrested in 2 days by 7,000 police for "Possession of nitrous oxide", how many police officers (or what other measures) would be needed to get the 6 tonnes of gas canisters left behind down to zero tonnes?*https://news.met.police.uk/news/notting-hill-carnival-update-on-incidents-and-arrests-487332

David Ainsworth ● 60d

The reason that contributors to the Forum have sought to downplay the level of criminality is that the perpetrators (and the victims) were overwhelmingly likely to have been black.

Steven Rose ● 60d

This thread reminds me of when I visited a friend in California many years ago and it was casually remarked that a young couple had been murdered a few days before - but it was all ok as they had not followed some rule or other.It's a coping method. "The numbers are small so unlikely to be me". "You have to expect a few stabbings" as if it was an equivalent to getting stung by a wasp at a picnic. "If I mind my own business then it won't happen to me". Except a fair number of stabbing victims are cases of mistaken identity or with no previous history of crime.One wonders how many stabbings people find acceptable at a family community event this size? What if a member of their family were one of the stats?Zero is the only acceptable answer. Until that is the actual number then it is quite right to ask is everything possible is being done?

Ed Robinson ● 60d

What's the hourly rate?

David Ainsworth ● 60d

There were 5 arrests per 100,000 people attending mens domestic football games last season. Whereas the NH Carnival had the equivalent of 33 arrests per 100,000 people attending.

Nick Gulliford ● 60d

You have to condemn the level of violence which surprisingly no one eg Khan and Starmer are even mentioning.  You need at least 12/15 police officers to arrest one individual due to fears of reprisal attacks from parts of the crowd.  Why is that?  Clearly the Carnival would be better suited to Hyde Park where more families can attend and appreciate the costumes and cultures.  Surely this is what is meant to be on show - not injuries and people fighting for their lives. 

Robert Wheeler ● 60d

oops cant add up today49 x possession of an offensive weapon37 x assault on an emergency worker8 x sexual offences9 x violence with injury15 x other violenceI believe there are about 68m people in the UK. I wonder if the 67m who didn't attend committed 67 times the crimes listed above?3283 x possession of an offensive weapon2479 x assault on an emergency worker536 x sexual offences603 x violence with injury1005 x other violence

Adam Tripp ● 60d

49 x possession of an offensive weapon37 x assault on an emergency worker8 x sexual offences9 x violence with injury15 x other violenceI believe there are about 68m people in the UK. I wonder if the 57m who didn't attend committed 57 times the crimes listed above?2793 x possession of an offensive weapon2109 x assault on an emergency worker456 x sexual offences513 x violence with injury855 x other violence

Adam Tripp ● 60d

HalloRe the Carnival, with 1 million plus people attending and appearing there are always going to be problems, but taken in numbers, really, not too awful a percentage.

Carole Tanner ● 60d

6 tonnes of canisters picked up this year. 13 tonnes last year.Yer gotta laff!

David Ainsworth ● 60d

Why?

Sue Hammond ● 60d

It's the biggest street party in Europe.

Philippa Bond ● 61d

Also loads of laughing gas cans to get rid of.

Barbara Stevens ● 61d

1 million visitors … even 330 is still a tiny proportion, however tragic each individual case may be.  To brand the whole event in the way you do is quite inappropriateNick

Nicholas Evans ● 61d

@NickRead it again Nick, properly this time.'Police reveal more Notting Hill Carnival carnage with more than 330 people now arrested, while there have been eight stabbings leaving *three people fighting for their lives'Possibly 3 murders if *they die .

Sue Hammond ● 61d

By your reckoning there were 118 offences at the “The annual drugs-and-stab fest”. Considering it is estimated that 1,000,000 people attended the Carnival that seems a pretty modest total. But of course any criminality is to be regretted. Nick

 

Nicholas Evans ● 61d

I would not have gone there even if I was paid.

Barbara Stevens ● 61d