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Ah, Mr Hawkes, that takes me back to my first days in IT (if I ignore my Fortran days writing numerical analysis progams at IC) in the early mid 70s writing mine and fixing others' COBOL programs on ICL1900s. A successful range with proprietary hardware and the GEORGE range of operating systems. Yes, Mr Hawkes, the government bought many ICL 1900s - it seemed to be common knowledge that the Police National Computing Centre was at Jubilee House, Putney Bridge Road 'cause it was next to ICL's Riverside House - not that I ever went closer to either than the Spotted Horse in those days.At the same time ICL sold its System/4 range - made by RCA in the US - that was an IBM/360 clone.Then, later in the 1970s came the ICL 2900 range. That ran a new proprietary OS, VME, but with other bits of software (DME, direct machine environment and CME, concurrent machine environment) it could also run George OS/360, VME or combinations of those (hope I've got that correct). But I  think the development costs of the 2900 was what started ICL's commercial problems ...IBM did have a large commercial market. I seem to remember being in sales support situations where the competitors could be proposing IBM System/38 and RS/6000 solutions against others with an HP, DEC, McDonnell Douglas, etc solutions! And if IBM lost they'd pester the decision maker's boss saying what a mistake their chap had made - remember the slogan "no one ever got fired for buying IBM" - until Bill Gates came along!

Michael Ixer ● 303d

Mr IxerI only spent 35 years in IT: 'techie', tech sales, education, consultancy and as a Managing Consultant, for a major US company and much of the time in the City.So my views are also based on experience in these matters - for what that's worth.And yes I would agree 'that remuneration isn't necessarily linked to the value people add'.But that is a truism that covers also where we came in: is a train driver worth as much as a senior 'junior doctor' ?I think not: you might disagree.Perhaps renumeration is just luck of the draw or monopolistic collective union power.In the end people can make a choice as regards remuneration and 'job satisfaction' and good luck to them.'but perhaps the need to step back and reflect on excesses, and the growing gap between rich and poor, and who really adds value to society - and perhaps what value means: is it money, helping other or happiness, or perhaps a combination?'Might it not be true that any 'gap between rich and poor' is in fact to some extent based on the skill and educational difference between individuals such that those better qualified can seek in money terms 'a better job' ?How would you address this problem ?A state managed salary policy ?And who adds really adds more value to society ?An international corporate banker who pays a large amount of tax on a large salary or the person who cleans his/her office who possibly pays no tax at all ?Difficult to judge and act upon.Perhaps best left to market forces whilst keeping a close eye on tax rates to ensure the gap does not get ridiculously wide whilst still allowing a role for financial incentives.'However, often those in powerful positions pontificating on the health, education and transport systems used by others are very financially comfortable themselves; for example, the ERG members had a fair few pounds between them and views on public services as well as the Brexit folly?Finally how come we got onto Brexit ? And what makes you think 'those in powerful positions' never availed themselves of our health, education and transport systems ?For after all if they are so well off and paid their taxes they more than helped finance them.If they don't use them how do they manage their health; where were they educated; and how do they travel ?Complex isn't it ?

John Hawkes ● 303d

So, Mr Hawkes, everything is a cliché and, obviously, not all conservatives are wealthy. However, often those in powerful positions pontificating on the health, education and transport systems used by others are very financially comfortable themselves; for example, the ERG members had a fair few pounds between them and views on public services as well as the Brexit folly? One point I'd make is that working in IT for nearly five decades I've worked alongside people in a wide range of industries: oil, manufacturing & distribution, the NHS, finance, banking & investment management and IT & info/cybersec. So my views - sometimes somewhat cynical - aren't just plucked out of the air but based on observations of how these different areas operate. Yes, there is a danger making generalised statements based on specific examples (but, sorry, I'm not about to write a thesus on this) but one thing I've noticed - particularly when looking across different sectors - is that remuneration isn't necessarily linked to the value people add - or subtract! - to organisations. Perhaps that doesn't matter - some people are more interested in doing jobs they enjoy or that let them have fun and freedom rather than earning "big bucks" - not everyone has the same ambitions or expectations. Interesting how the rush by finance people to generate wealth often ends in tears - the 2008 banking crash and SBF's crypto empire? I'm not arguing against bonuses or uncapped pensions - or even a good business lunch - but perhaps the need to step back and reflect on excesses, and the growing gap between rich and poor, and who really adds value to society - and perhaps what value means: is it money, helping other or happiness, or perhaps a combination?

Michael Ixer ● 303d

Mr Ixer,Are you having a laugh ?? That raises an interesting philosophical debate. Train drivers can be responsible for the lives of hundreds at any one time, doctors usually just one at a time. One could, however, doctors need a much greater amount of knowledge and training; so how does one judge?So it's just a numbers game and nothing to do with inherent value, importance and skill.I can judge instantly as I am sure can most others if they choose to read this thread.God knows why there is a shortage of train drivers as the job is greatly automated as well as very well paid.Perhaps they see no future in the role when they notice that many TfL tube lines run automatically with the 'driver' just watching and being responsible solely for opening and closing the doors.Equivalent to the 'man with the red flag' who walked alongside the first steam trains to check for 'problems on the line ' etc.I believe that on the Docklands Light Railway there is no driver at all as is the case in numerous train and transit systems world wide.Regarding donations to political Parties -'Ahead of the election campaign, supermarket heir Lord David Sainsbury sat at the top of the list after giving more than £13m in donations since the last election - including £5.1m to Labour and £8m to the Liberal Democrats.He is not to be confused with his cousin, the late Lord John Sainsbury, who gave £10.2m to the Conservatives in the same period.Next up was the union Unite, which has given £10.7m to Labour, and hundreds of thousands of pounds to Labour MPs.The GMB union and Unison have both given around £6m to Labour since 2019.Businessman Graham Edwards gave £5.2m to the Conservatives in this period.Next on the list is Frank Hester's The Phoenix Partnership, which has given £5.2m, including a £15,900 helicopter flight to Mr Sunak last year.Mr Hester also donated £5m in a personal capacity to the Conservatives'. Sky News OnlineNot a lot of difference between the Parties really is there.Not sure Sainsburys got many political favours but looking at Reeve's recent pay rises she is giving to those in the public sector the Unions have got a good pay back !

John Hawkes ● 304d

Mr Hawkes Just ensuring some balance in the discussions:-)#1 Without reasonable pay levels there won't be adequate staff to service the NHS. Obviously, some would like to see the NHS fail in favour of a US style insurance system'What determines a reasonable pay level in a monopolistic state service such as the NHS unless of course it uses as a benchmark the Train Drivers £69K pa for a 4 day week with any weekend work being paid as overtime ?Did you know trainee train drivers and trainee doctors have pretty much the same starting salary ?!⟩ That raises an interesting philosophical debate. Train drivers can be responsible for the lives of hundreds at any one time, doctors usually just one at a time. One could, however, doctors need a much greater amount of knowledge and training; so how does one judge? Is that why there are pay review bodies? And I guess there's still supply and demand, even for monopolies within a market economy? Doctors can opt to work in the private sector, and given an apparent shortage of train drivers perhaps not many are attracted to the job?And please no more of that hoary old chestnut that some are determined to introduce a US health care system where everyone has to pay individually.If some think the NHS should be replaced they usually refer to the quality of many systems in the EU such as that in France, which I believe is partly funded by the individual having to take out an insurance policy.⟩ That may be the case, but in the past some politicians seem very close to US health companies. It's worth a reminder from time to time; my observations are that even for those with good insurance there are inefficiencies and lack of coordination in the US system that aren't in the patient interest and show good the NHS when it's working correctly - the main problem is the access times to NHS treatments for non life threatening treatment.'#2 failure to resolve strikes costs the economy money and causes services to deteriorate. That's why waiting lists get longer and more people are sick, unable to work, and contribute to tge economy'So should all strikes be 'resolved' by acceding to the strikers claims ?⟩ I never suggested that. But talking and negotiating is a good thing; which the previous government seemed reluctant to do so things just dragged on and on …#3 no, taxpayers don't pay the bonuses, don't think I suggested they were, but money from income is invested on a global basis - if only to spread risks - and the HMRC seems to put a lot of effort into tracing foreign accounts of UK taxpayers, and leaving the EU seemed to be to avoid some EU financial services legislation ... interesting how many overseas territories have banking and investment services ...Bankers might earn large bonuses and salaries but that is because they can demand them of their employers who in turn are running highly profitable financial services businesses in the private sector.An example of the truism that a competitive free market provides the only true way of determining salaries and hence why it is so difficult to assess NHS salaries.The Financial Services sector of our economy is one of our most successful and delivers tax revenues that go to amongst other things, fund the NHS.That's why the EU wanted to impose restrictions upon it - supported by the bankers in Paris and Frankfurt who doubtless looked on its success and its employers remuneration with great envy !I doubt if more than a few bankers are paid offshore for HMRC is pretty tight on such matters.⟩ Having worked in financial services I would question whether some really deserve them (but we'd better not go down that route!) - for some I'm sure it was just fortuitous that they were in the right place at the right time, etc to get those jobs but I guess that's life. Of course, one might say that London was a success because US financial services saw it as a good global base: deregulated by Thatcher and Lawson, midway between the US and far east (sort of), a buzzing metropolis, English speaking and - when decisions were first made - in the EU ... I really hope it remains a success …#4 yes, I said withdrawing the general WFA will probably turn out to be a mistake????⟩ Just saying I disagree with limiting the Winter Fuel Allowance and it's one thing I think will likely rebound and hurt the government #5 so on that basis you think the poor rather than the rich should be taxed?Who has claimed this ?The top 1% of earners paid 28% of the UK's total Income Tax revenue; the top 10% paid 60%; 43% paid NONE !⟩ Just a question: is this the conclusion to be drawn based on the Tory (and now Labour) decision not to raise the lowest tax threshold. Interesting that 43% don't have sufficient income to pay tax.#6 oh, yes, bad edit! Meant union donors Influencing Labour to fund the NHS adequately rather than, say, for example, property owner doners influencing Tories to abandon Mr Goves leasehold reform. If business leaders can influence Tory policies it's perfectly reasonable that unions can also influence Labour, although a number of business leaders seemed to also have more confidence in Labour ...Slight difference in bargaining power here surely.Not sure what changes property owners won from Gove by lobbying, but their effect on the country as a whole is infinitesimal compared with strikes threatened by unions that 'influenced' the Labour Chancellor Reeves to up their salaries and deepen the 'black hole'.'Sir Keir Starmer’s top team (including the Chancellor) have accepted a total of £480,030 in cash and donations in kind from the party’s union backers since 2019'.Hence the public sector pay rises⟩ But I think business donations to the Tory party were greater than unions gave to Labour? Mr Goves's failure was just one example. I suppose one should expect organisations and individuals to donate to those who they think will look after their interests?

Michael Ixer ● 304d

Mr Ixer'#1 Without reasonable pay levels there won't be adequate staff to service the NHS. Obviously,  some would like to see the NHS fail in favour of a US style insurance system'What determines a reasonable pay level in a monopolistic state service such as the NHS unless of course it uses as a benchmark the Train Drivers £69K pa for a 4 day week with any weekend work being paid as overtime ?Did you know trainee train drivers and trainee doctors have pretty much the same starting salary ?!And please no more of that hoary old chestnut that some are determined to introduce a US health care system where everyone has to pay individually.If some think the NHS should be replaced they usually refer to the quality of many systems in the EU such as that in France, which I believe is partly funded by the individual having to take out an insurance policy.'#2 failure to resolve strikes costs the economy money and causes services to deteriorate. That's why waiting lists get longer and more people are sick, unable to work, and contribute to tge economy'So should all strikes be 'resolved' by acceding to the strikers claims ?#3 no, taxpayers don't pay the bonuses, don't  think I suggested they were, but money from income is invested on a global basis - if only to spread risks - and the HMRC seems to put a lot of effort into tracing foreign accounts of UK taxpayers, and leaving the EU seemed to be to avoid some EU financial services legislation ... interesting how many overseas territories have banking and investment services ...Bankers might earn large bonuses and salaries but that is because they can demand them of their employers who in turn are running highly profitable financial services businesses in the private sector.An example of the truism that a competitive free market provides the only true way of determining salaries and hence why it is so difficult to assess NHS salaries.The Financial Services sector of our economy is one of our most successful and delivers tax revenues that go to amongst other things, fund the NHS.That's why the EU wanted to impose restrictions upon it - supported by the bankers in Paris and Frankfurt who doubtless looked on its success and its employers remuneration with great envy !I doubt if more than a few bankers are paid offshore for HMRC is pretty tight on such matters.#4 yes, I said withdrawing the general WFA will probably turn out to be a mistake????#5 so on that basis you think the poor rather than the rich should be taxed?Who has claimed this ?The top 1% of earners paid 28% of the UK's total Income Tax revenue; the top 10% paid 60%; 43% paid NONE !#6 oh, yes, bad edit! Meant union donors Influencing Labour to fund the NHS adequately rather than, say, for example, property owner doners influencing Tories to abandon Mr Goves leasehold reform. If business leaders can influence Tory policies it's perfectly reasonable that unions can also influence Labour, although a number of business leaders seemed to also have more confidence in Labour ...Slight difference in bargaining power here surely.Not sure what changes property owners won from Gove by lobbying, but their effect on the country as a whole is infinitesimal compared with strikes threatened by unions that 'influenced' the Labour Chancellor Reeves to up their salaries and deepen the 'black hole'.'Sir Keir Starmer’s top team (including the Chancellor) have accepted a total of £480,030 in cash and donations in kind from the party’s union backers since 2019'.Hence the public sector pay rises.

John Hawkes ● 304d

Michael, I am afraid that I don't find your reply any more convincing than your original post.On the NHS, I think the junior doctors' demand for a 35% pay increase is outrageous. Should other workers in the public sector like the teachers, equally deserving but without the prospect of earning £70k plus in a few years' time, embark on damaging strikes so as to achieve pay levels equal to what they were getting in 2010? Rachel Reeves' view that it is cheaper to pay the doctors off with an inflationary pay award than bear the cost of the strikes is short sighted as it will encourage other public sector unions to hold the country to ransom till they get what they want. All such pay increases have to be financed, either by reducing benefits (such as the winter fuel allowance for pensioners) or by raising taxes for everyone else (such as council tax). In any case it is not pay but workload which is the main reason for poor retention. This can only be resolved by training more doctors. It is clear that the NHS requires reform. Even Wes Streeting recognises this. A situation where the NHS consumes ever greater proportions of the budget is simply unsustainable. The idea that the only alternative to the NHS in its present form is US style health service is nonsense, which is why Streeting has visited other countries like Australia to see what we can learn from how they do things.On bankers' bonuses, I share the general view that many people in the banking sector receive excessive salaries. But I think many people in other walks of life are paid excessive amounts. Did Gareth Southgate deserve to be paid million? Does Gary Lineker deserve £1 million plus pa, especially since his salary comes out of our licence fee? Why this obsession with bankers? Labour in any case have dropped their original plan to impose a cap on bankers' bonuses because it would be counter productive.  Taxing the rich sounds like a good idea but in practice it is fraught with difficulty, which is why Rachel Reeves has chosen not to impose higher tax bands.

Steven Rose ● 305d

The problem with X is that it's still being used as a public service - SWR, Met Police, London Fire Brigade, Kier Starmer, Rishi Sunak, … just to name a handful - still have X accounts for disseminating legitimate information. This, unfortunately, is mixed with disinformation, misinformation, bullying and hate speech from other posts. The "market" seems to be letting the quality of X degenerate - are people happy to have their train information disseminated on the same platform as, say, misogynistic information from other posters?It seems unhealthy that a single person can guide such a service ignoring any other sensitivities? Is it really 'free' speech if it's disseminating false or hateful messages? It seems Mr Musk, but surrounding himself with "yes" people, is drowning in his own groupthink?I see Twitter, sorry, X has closed down its Brazilian operations because of a disagreement with the legal service there: https://www.reuters.com/technology/x-close-operations-brazil-effective-immediately-2024-08-17/It also looks like there could be a data privacy showdown in the EU: https://fortune.com/europe/2024/08/12/eu-privacy-group-none-of-your-business-files-complaints-in-eight-european-countries-against-elon-musks-x-for-illegal-user-data-use-vienna/And X doesn't seem too popular in the UK: https://www.research-live.com/article/news/almost-a-third-of-x-users-in-uk-considering-leaving-finds-savanta/id/5129343X has in the past proven to be useful for disseminating information but possibly seems intent on self destruction, which would be a loss. Perhaps the courts and regulators might make it seem sense? Perhaps Musk might cut his losses and sell it to another, perhaps publically quoted, corporate organisation that is subject to more rigorous regulations; I think it would be sad to see X/Twitter disintegrate when it can provide a useful communications service.

Michael Ixer ● 305d

Perhaps a little early to pass judgement. The public service pay rises are in many cases staggered, inline with pay review body recommendations and mainly putting workers back in a position they've lost over the last decade rather than real increases. Unlike banker's bonuses and payment for useless PPE they're unlikely to be squirreled away in overseas accounts but will likely be ploughed almost immediately back into the economy for spending on urgently needed household goods, etc. (As is usually the case with benefits payments as well.)The cost of the rises has to be offset against the cost of losses and deterioration in services from strikes to railways, education and the NHS - that seem to be forgotten in the budget discussions. I suppose if one's a wealthy Tory with access to private health, public school, and helicopter or limousine services poor public services aren't a concern?The ASLEF LNER strikes seem unfortunate but apparently have nothing to do with pay - surely, they can be halted by just having an open, public inquiry into the alleged bullying? Bullying is unacceptable and, as LNER is essentially a nationalised service, the investigation should be transparent. I think withdrawal of the Winter Fuel Allowance will probably turn out to be a mistake but the freezing of income tax thresholds by the previous government had already hit pensioners, so no point in Tories being too judgemental. It would seem fairer to up the tax bands, retain the WFA and increase tax on higher rate payers but I'm not sure how the arithmetic stacks up on that. The cynic in me thinks maybe it's better having the Labour Union donators directing money to NHS, rail and education assisting the majority of the population rather than being siphoned off into the savings of wealthy Tory donors? Perhaps the financing of political parties needs a review to stop interested parties subverting democracy whether that's wealthy business or subscriptions to trade unions?

Michael Ixer ● 305d

I agree with you that Labour were fortunate to win the election and unfortunately we are stuck with them for the next 5 years. Then we disagree. Labour will continue to be 'slagged off' unless they cease being controlled by their Union paymasters. Unfortunately this will not happen and our country will be bankrupted by Labour's fiscal ineptitude and its slavish dependency on Union funding and its compliance to their demands. Our economy was on the rise before Labour came into power but it will be very interesting to see what happens in the next quarter. Whatever happens Jonathan, you will always defend Labour to the hilt.🙄I read the article and it's just another tedious editorial criticism of Farage's income. It is irrelevant how much he earns, which incidentally is all aboveboard, legal, declared and documented, so why are you (and others) so incensed by it? Farage was a millionaire before he became an MP so what is the problem now? Envy perhaps? As for him being bored with being an MP, this is total unsubstantiated nonsense; pure conjecture by a journalist who clearly holds him in contempt."Farage is bored. He has the air of a child who has wished for so long for something and finally, when his wish is granted, finds it is much less satisfying than he thought. He never needed the letters MP after his name to make his voice heard. His lucrative bustle of activity suggests that he might already have concluded that the hard yards of parliamentary scrutiny were not what he was looking for."  Finally, if Farage does not serve his constituents well they will exercise their displeasure at the next GE and boot him out.

Sue Hammond ● 305d