Forum Topic

Air strike on  Rafah

How interesting that the pro-Israel lobby trio here remain silent on the air strike on the refugee camp in Rafah that resulted in a firestorm which killed at least 45 people (half of them children, women and older people) and injured, many terribly, around 200. And this was a “precision strike” using specialised munitions with “reduced warheads"!Do they, perhaps, agree with the rightwing Israeli journalists who celebrated the attack on Israeli television and on Twitter, likening it to this week’s Jewish bonfire festival, Lag B’Omer? Or commentator Yinon Dromi, who retweeted another user’s post which showed a fire in Rafah, adding her own: “Happy Holidays"?

Richard Carter ● 393d28 Comments

Like children in the playground - "MY DADS BIGGER THAN YOUR DAD".

Patrick D Barrs ● 389d

Mr Kettlekey'What I don't understand is why the wider Arab population aren't doing all they can to alleviate the plight of Palestinians in Gaza. Egypt apparently refuse to take refugees in because they are concerned that terrorists will slip in among them'.The answer is that popular support and 'democracy' are fragile in all Arab countries as none of the rulers have the least idea how to grow and govern a country to give the people at least an aspiration of a better and more prosperous way of life.As is the case in Israel.So the last thing they want are the headbangers of Hamas coming in to stir things up.Though not actually to solve the problems, as fighting not social improvement is their speciality.

John Hawkes ● 391d

Mr Rose'There can be no Palestinian State without an agreement between Israel and the Palestinians. And this can come about only if the Palestinians accept Israel's right to exist. Unfortunately the majority of Palestinians, both on Gaza and the West Bank support Hamas, an organisation dedicated to the destruction of Israel'.The crux of the issue.Peace is possible if the Palestinians are represented by those, if they exist, who genuinely want to live peaceably alongside Israel and are willing to compromise to achieve this aim.Many at the moment do not and nor do most of their fifth-column non-Arabic supporters.We should not be dissuaded that some of these people are driven by envy and jealousy of the achievements of Israel and its people: and, should we say it, some by anti-semitism ?

John Hawkes ● 391d

Mr Brigo'Haven't you spent the last few months telling us that this war started in November???'No I haven't.I have posted that this is a multi-millennial struggle for a patch of land entered by the Hebrews about 1300 BCE.In early times the Jews were invaded by the Syrians and the Babylonians and driven from this homeland in 135CE, though a few remained.Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country although Arabic became the language of most  of the population after Muslim invasions of the 7th century CE.No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine, an opinion endorsed by Palestinian  representatives at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference and the representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations in 1947.The view of these representatives was that Palestine was part of the province of Syria and the Arabs of Palestine did not comprise a separate political entity; a view further endorsed by Ahmed Shuqeiri, later chairman of the PLO.Palestinian Arab nationalism some claim is largely a post-WWI phenomenon and not a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War. But what I do concede is that I have posted that the current confrontation was kicked off by Palestinians from Gaza invading Israel (in October 2023); their killing, raping, sexually assaulting and abducting women and children; posting videos of such on the Internet; running off with the captives and hiding with them to this day in Palestinian civilian enclaves; Israel like any other country including ours had to respond to the invasion and try to release its captured citizens; this involved armed incursion into civilian areas with the obvious result of some being killed; when an extreme consequence of this took place Israel made full apology.Have I got this right ?Anyone especially Palestinians and their supporters have a different narrative ?Mr Carter ?

John Hawkes ● 391d

"You cannot obviously come to terms (or perhaps you are unaware) that Jews and Arabs have been in often violent dispute over this patch of land for millennia."Haven't you spent the last few months telling us that this war started in November???

Michael Brigo ● 392d

Thanks John, Will read it.Meanwhile from Haaretz - the Israeli left wing newspaper (anti Netanyahu in the main) reports 'The IDF said it is "too early" to determine what caused the fatal blaze in a Rafah tent camp that killed at least 45 Palestinian civilians, as the munitions used were too small to ignite a blaze of that size. The IDF's spokesperson said the investigation would also cover the possibility that the fire was exacerbated by a weapons cache or a nearby fuel tank unknown to the IDF.'

Lucille Grant ● 392d

> What I don't understand is why the wider Arab population aren't doing all they can to alleviate the plight of Palestinians in Gaza. Egypt apparently refuse to take refugees in because they are concerned that terrorists will slip in among them. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/21/why-arab-states-wont-support-palestinians-qa-00142277 is an interesting read on that subject.

John Kettlekey ● 392d

@Richard 14.44Apologies for delay in responding but a friend has been here all day.  I am mystified by your answer because I haven't read anything controversial or contentious from any of the posters you mention. What exactly have they said that riles you so much? Genuine question.

Sue Hammond ● 392d

Oh, thanks Richard. I hadn't realised that.

Lucille Grant ● 392d

'And this is exactly what Hamas want. They can't even begin to succeed if Israel still has the support of the Western world, but Netanyahu can't seem to help himself pushing the limits of acceptability within a conflict setting.'Exactly this. Hamas sent rockets over Tel Aviv, Israel's second largest city and main commercial, financial, industrial and cultural centre. 4.4 million people live in Tel Aviv. Is it any wonder that the IDF struck back as they did? To my mind it is unlikely that many, if any, hostages have survived almost eight months in captivity. Netanyahu will carry on as long as he can, with or without support, especially if Hamas continue their rocket bombardment. I'm not saying that is the right decision - I'm not living in Israel and fortunately none of my extended family there are unsafe. What I don't understand is why the wider Arab population aren't doing all they can to alleviate the plight of Palestinians in Gaza. Egypt apparently refuse to take refugees in because they are concerned that terrorists will slip in among them.

Lucille Grant ● 392d

I can assure you Richard, there are some posts (I shall not mention which) that imply the belief I mentioned in my last post.

Lucille Grant ● 392d

As I've said before, creating a false dichotomy (you're either pro or anti Israel) is not helping.> Could you point out to me any web link where Hamas apologises for the atrocities they committed ?They're a terrorist organisation. Are you really complaining about their lack of manners?> Netanyahu has apologised for the deaths in Rafah where doubtless Hamas were hiding in the civilian population as is their usual cowardly tactic.Sorry, it's not clear what you mean by "usual cowardly tactic"?Do you mean the repeated accidental bombing of civilian targets and then issuing an apology and launching an investigation?The ever increasing number of incidents like this are going to erode public support for Netanyahu within Israel (especially for failing to free the remaining hostages as he has promised) and with the governments of Israel's Western allies.And this is exactly what Hamas want. They can't even begin to succeed if Israel still has the support of the Western world, but Netanyahu can't seem to help himself pushing the limits of acceptability within a conflict setting.

John Kettlekey ● 392d

I won't do a tedious Hawkes and demand where you saw comments (as he knows I don't respond to his hectoring) but I think you may be reading things into the comments that you mention that are not actually there.

Richard Carter ● 392d

Robert, I deliberately missed Lucille off the list because I agree with much (but not all) that dhexwrites.

Richard Carter ● 392d

Oh Mr Carter.......what a childish comment.'How interesting that the pro-Israel lobby trio here remain silent on the air strike on the refugee camp in Rafah that resulted in a firestorm which killed at least 45 people (half of them children, women and older people) and injured, many terribly, around 200'.I have not made a comment as I have just returned from a concerning medical appointment.And what do I find ?An insulting comment from the smug, sanctimonious, self-righteous person that you show yourself to be.St Richard: standing up bravely for those killed in this horrific incident of war whilst we, 'the pro-Israel trio', obviously relish the deaths and agree with the ghastly comments from some random Israeli headbanging journalists you must have spent hours digging up. You cannot obviously come to terms (or perhaps you are unaware) that Jews and Arabs have been in often violent dispute over this patch of land for millennia.You also obviously have also not read the Hamas Charter calling for the destruction of the state of Israel and the Jews themselves, against which Israel is defending itself in a war which will always by its nature result in terrible incidents such as this.You also seem to forget that the tragic incident you reference and which all would condemn, is yet another in the ongoing battle in the war Israel is fighting after it was attacked last October when numerous women and children were murdered, raped and abducted by the brave the brave Palestinian boys of Hamas.Many hostages are still held.Netanyahu has apologised for the deaths in Rafah where doubtless Hamas were hiding in the civilian population as is their usual cowardly tactic.Could you point out to me any web link where Hamas apologises for the atrocities they committed ? And you might check out these news items that describe the extent of the atrocities and the relish of the perpetrators.'Hamas hostages: Stories of the people taken from Israel' - BBC News'Israel Gaza: Hamas raped and mutilated women on 7 October, BBC hears' - BBC News'Israel releases film of women soldiers being taken by Hamas on Oct. 7' | ReutersYes to put it simplistically I am 'pro-Israel' in this conflict.You are obviously not so and one can only surmise why this might be.

John Hawkes ● 392d

I noticed that omission too Robert!

Lucille Grant ● 392d

'no one on this forum disputes Israel's right to exist.' That is an interesting comment, Richard and I am glad you think so.However, no one will openly admit to this abhorrent view but, reading between the lines of some posts on various threads about Israel/Gaza I get the sense that there are people who wouldn't care if Israel lost this  war or the next and  think, or even say, 'they deserve it.'

Lucille Grant ● 392d

Richard l note you have missed off Lucille from your target list!  Please point to where anyone has said that they are not concerned about Palestinian casualties.Really you need to make arguments and not personalise.

Robert Wheeler ● 392d

Recognising a Palestinian State as a way of punishing Israel for its campaign in Gaza is gesture politics. There can be no Palestinian State without an agreement between Israel and the Palestinians. And this can come about only if the Palestinians accept Israel's right to exist. Unfortunately the majority of Palestinians, both on Gaza and the West Bank support Hamas, an organisation dedicated to the destruction of Israel.Those who dispute the right of Israelis  to eliminate a mortal enemy who wishes to destroy Israel and kill its Jewish population are effectively disputing Israel's right to exist, however vehemently they deny it.

Steven Rose ● 392d

PS: I do read the Guardian and also the FT and the Telegraph, but if I'm 'fired' by anything, it's by the nauseating stuff in the Telegraph.

Richard Carter ● 392d

No, Sue, fired by what I've read from the trio of Robert, Steven Rose and John Hawkes, the trio I referred to originally.

Richard Carter ● 392d

Well said Robert. There is no such lobby on here. Just in Richard's fevered imagination; maybe fired from something he's read in the Guardian.

Sue Hammond ● 392d

Thank you, Robert - but your reply on the pro-Israel lobby isn't entirely convincing, given that absolutely no one on this forum disputes Israel's right to exist. Perhaps a better definition for the subgroup would be "Those who support Israel's right to self-defence, without being overly concerned about the effects on the Palestinians." Not as snappy, I agree, but a bit more accurate.?And the Israelis I quoted in my original pist didn't seem be too bothered about loss of life....

Richard Carter ● 392d

Richard can l just correct you that as far as l am aware there is is no “pro-Israel lobby” on here from reading posts.  Just folks calling for the right for Israel to exist.Obviously nobody is condoning or celebrating any loss of life.  Why on earth would you think otherwise.

Robert Wheeler ● 392d

It is beyond horrific! And Netanyahu said it was a "tragic mishap"...  Now, the Israeli tanks are in the heart of Rafah amid intense shelling of city.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-69068028I do not for one minute condone Hamas firing rockets towards Tel Aviv.  No way.But Israel's response (or waiting for the excuse?) is totally out of proportion.  Sadly, I think this will be a horrific and long (one-sided?) war.

Ivonne Holliday ● 393d

Yes, Nick, and I've lost count of the number of times the IDF/Israeli government has "launched an investigation" into such events, after which nothing about it is ever heard again.

Richard Carter ● 393d

Richard: not a peep from the usual suspects. A truly terrible event. Calling for an “investigation” by the Israeli army which was Lord Cameron’s response is just completely unsatisfactory. I would hope our new government will follow the lead of other European countries and recognise the Palestinian state. Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 393d

Sorry, a mistake: I meant to ask "Do they agree with the rightwing Israeli journalists....?"

Richard Carter ● 393d