Forum Topic

Mr Carter'An existential threat is a threat to something’s very existence—when the continued being of something is at stake or in danger. It is used to describe threats to actual living things as well to non living thing, such as a country or an ideology'.Was the October pogrom by the Palestinians not such a threat ?Did the further invasion of Israel by Gazan Palestinians not pose an even bigger one ?You say 'they (supporters of Israel?) deliberately inflate the threat to justify the IDF's killing spree'.Is that because you know that the Palestinians are  incompetent in most things even warfare and so there is no reason for Israel to eliminate Hamas as they are trying to do ? If Israel inflates the threat do you not believe that such a threat is posed in the Hamas Charter ?Can you interpret for us what is meant by it ?'The original, 1988 version of the charter emphasize four main themes.Destroying Israel and establishing an Islamic theocracy in Palestine is essential.Unrestrained jihad is necessary to achieve this.Negotiated resolutions of Jewish and Palestinian claims to the land are unacceptable.Historical anti-semitic tropes that reinforce the goals.The Covenant proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day. Compromise over the land is forbidden. The documents promote holy war as divinely ordained, reject political solutions, and call for instilling these views in children'.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Hamas_charter#Summary_of_the_1988_charterDo you not find this chilling and for Jews, particularly after last October's invasion, even very threatening to the extent of being 'existential.'Or don't you care that much ?Feel free to talk foolishly or at tedious length about the issue and let us know what you really think.

John Hawkes ● 411d

Your justification of Wes Streeting’s slur is disingenuous in my opinion. The fact that white supremacists would be more likely to vote for Susan Hall than Sadiq Khan is no justification for tarnishing hundreds of thousands of Conservative voters with the taint of racism. I imagine that Hamas supporters would be more likely to vote for Sadiq than Ms Hall. But would that justify saying that a win for Sadie is a win for Hamas?Your view that sending illegal migrants to Rwanda  is not racist contradicts your assertion that the scheme was ‘designed to appeal to white supremacists and Islamophobes’. If the policy is not racist, why would it appeal to racists? You appear to understand that the purpose of the scheme is to deter people from seeking to cross the Channel illegally. And you correctly state that the UK has no intention of deporting tens of thousands of migrants to Rwanda.  For if the scheme is successful there will be no need for mass deportations. After the first few hundred have been sent to Rwanda, word will get around and migrants will seek other destinations than Britain. But then in contradiction to your earlier statement you imply that the government really does intend to deport people in their thousands to Rwanda, which the Rwandan government would never allow. On this basis you conclude that the whole scheme is a piece of theatre.  Your argument is based on a false assumption. There is further confusion in  your comments about legal migration. You correctly state that hundreds of thousand of visa are given out each year. And you also point out that the country needs foreign doctors and nurses at the moment. But this is precisely why those visa are given, though hopefully in the future we will be training more of our own doctors and nurses rather than attracting them from poorer countries where they are more needed. But that is not an argument for tolerating unplanned and illegal migration.Finally I would like to say something about the provision of a safe and legal route for migrants. You imply that migrants come here illegally because they have virtually no way of applying for asylum by legal means. Let’s be honest. Most migrants setting out from Calais in small boats are economic migrants seeking a better life. I don’t blame them for wanting to come to Britain, but they are not on the whole fleeing from persecution. A year ago, the largest nationality making the crossing was from Albania, a country where there is no persecution.And even those who have fled from war-torn countries where they have faced persecution in the past are setting out from a safe country, namely France. Now if the government were to set up centres in Europe and beyond where migrants could claim asylum, this would create a massive pull factor. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people from countries round the world, some war-torn, some repressive, some just poor or poorer than Britain, could apply to come to this country. Is this a sensible policy?

Steven Rose ● 412d

> You may not wish to suggest that Conservative voters are effectively promoting racism, but that is exactly what Wes Streeting meant to imply. He said in terms that a win for Susan Hall is a win for racists , white supremacists and  Islamophobes the world over.Other than a very unlikely win from nowhere by Britain First a win for Susan Hall would be the best possible result for people with racist/supremacist/Islamaphobic views.> The clear implication was that Susan Hall is all of those things, so that if you vote for her, you are voting to put a racist into City Hall. If that is not a slur, what is?No, that's not the implication. It's simply that, of the candidates that had any possibility of winning (no matter how remote Susan Hall's chances actually were, but they were better than Britain First), Susan Hall would be the one most closely aligned with those groups.Do you see the difference?> Your observation that racists are drawn to the Conservative Party by such policies as the Rwanda scheme is provocative, to say the least.Of course it is because by my personal politics I couldn't be more opposed to it. I'd say that someone here saying that they fully support the Rwanda scheme would be equally provocative. But this is just a difference of opinion.> Perhaps you could explain why it is racist to send illegal migrants to Rwanda.It's not "racist" to send illegal immigrants to Rwanda. It's just a scheme that is designed to appeal to, amongst other groups (but not limited to), racists, white supremacists and Islamaphobes. The theory behind the scheme is that being sent to Rwanda with no chance of return to the UK is so off putting that people won't try to seek asylum in the UK.> Do you believe that everyone who wishes to come to this country, even if they have found refuge in a safe country like France, should have a right to do so?Everyone has a right to apply for asylum in any country they want to. Whether or not they are accepted is another matter. What the UK have done is make it extremely difficult (verging on nigh on impossible) to apply in a legal manner. There are no real overseas avenues to application and so the only option left is to try and make it to the UK and then start the asylum process here. It's a Catch 22.The rest is just theatre. The UK has no intention of deporting to Rwanda the tens of thousands of people who come over in boats each year. I'm sure some will go but the current scheme isn't designed for those kind of numbers, would be prohibitively expensive if it did, and those numbers would just be rejected by the Rwandan Government. Also remember that it is partly reciprocal, we will be getting refugees from Rwanda in return.The processing delays are another contrived method of making things worse than they need to be. Months and months in poor/unsuitable accommodation just to make it sound even worse to people thinking of coming here. But what they don't realise is that such appalling conditions/delays/treatment are often far better than they would have if they stayed where they were originally from, which is why the Rwanda scheme is just doomed to failure.That's the point though. The possibility of deportation to Rwanda and the poor/restrictive conditions whilst you wait are pandering to the voters, not as a real deterrent to the people who are trying to seek asylum here.It (and the "Stop the boats" sloganeering) is also a grand distraction from the fact that the number of migrants entering this country legally, with visas approved by the UK Government, absolutely dwarfs the number of people entering in a non-legal manner (by about 20:1). Also the current Government has previously said it will slow net immigration but has failed to do so, despite it being in control of the visas it is handing out. There are still huge areas of the UK workforce that are predominantly filled with migrant workers and the current Government has done little to address this in the last 12 years it has been in power. We have a shortage of doctors in this country but they chose not to raise the number of medical school places available each year. We have a shortage of nurses in this country but they chose to take away the nurses bursary reducing the incentive for people to go in to nursing. Etc.Anyone that supports a policy that is decried by many different independent international human rights organisations might need to think about what that says about themselves. Obviously the standard response is to scrabble around for some reason why the international human rights organisations are all somehow wrong. Anyone in this position doesn't need to justify it, they just have to live with their own conscience.

John Kettlekey ● 412d

The actual list can be found here: https://themuslimvote.co.uk/about-usOddly enough many of these seem quite sensible with some possibly being socially conservative views.It looks like the Mail's is someone's personal list.UK's policies need to be aligned with the UN and International law IMO which would cover some of the points in the link I gave. The UK after all says it believes in a two state solution and international law???The US recently announced it had withheld arms shipment to Israel - I believe to force negotiations etc. There is also talk of ICC warrants which the US has warned against. A reminder that the US does not recognise any international body that would hold its armed forces to account.All party parliamentary group definition on Islamophobia (APPG) - you would think parties would have a view one way or the other or perhaps have a different definition. I recall Chris Bryant on Sky News being an expert on Conservative Islamophobia but became empty headed when asked about the Labour party.Education (In my link) probably cover the existing arrangements I believe for faith schools that the Scottish Parliament want to change.Employment - if there is no step free access or toilets then this will prevent many from contributing to the economy.Nothing wrong with people pooling their political ambitions - that's what trade unions, political parties and other groups do is it not?https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2023-11-22/debates/2DE48EFB-5C5B-48C8-A7FB-09FF097DDDA8/DefinitionOfIslamophobia

Ed Robinson ● 414d