Forum Topic

Esther Rantzen

I know not Putney, but when I turned to Channel 35 this morning all about assisted dying. Before Christmas Esther went on about the subject.  Why have they got this continually about Assisted dying, when there are poor little children who are not well, who want to live.  People are in pain and having problem breathing and have had enough, but not right for little children to hear this on TV.  I know a lot will probably have something to say about this, but I don't think it should keep being broadcast, only making delicate people feel more depressed.

Barbara Stevens ● 422d39 Comments

Yes Victoria, they didn't even want our reporter who went with the family to really go in their building.

Barbara Stevens ● 402d

Don't think it was Dignitas, which is very careful, and does checks.

Victoria Diamond ● 402d

Perhaps, Switzerland are making an awful lot of money out of people who are stressed. Don't think this should be able to be done so easily.  A few years ago there was a website, think this was on the News, people encouraging each other how to kill themselves. I don't think Switzerland is much better. The poor family of the young man said goodbye in the morning, then never heard from him again. They were so upset, I expect the mother, just will spend the rest of her life, wondering what she could have done to help him, stop advertising.

Barbara Stevens ● 405d

All been on the News about a young man taking his own life, he only had a few mental problems and paid £11000, to end his life in Switzerland. His poor mother could not believe what he had done, so sad, and a lovely family he had. So all this advertising on the subject perhaps, should stop. Some delicate  will only be pushed over the edge. But really surprised, Switzerland allowed it to go ahead.

Barbara Stevens ● 405d

Just a reminder to be careful what you wish for.In Canada euthenasia has been offered to war veterans, those seeking state benefits and now wants to consider children without parental consent.

Ed Robinson ● 417d

Andy, that's assuming you're wired up on machines! I welcome the debate - I know of a couple of friends, both quite religious, who had such a terrible last two years/ few months and they really wished they had the means to end their lives in a dignified, humane way. They suffered so much, and modern medicine was not able to help them. I certainly would support a system in place, whereby you are consulted by 3 independent physicians, and if everything tallies, you are safely, quickly, and gently helped out of pain and suffering. We don't let our pets suffer, and if I could have an ending like my dog had, I'd be happy! Obviously have to be good checks in place. And if you really don't want to be resuscitated, then make sure you have a DNAR in place.

Victoria Diamond ● 417d

I've told my boy that when he dont recognise me as his dad or when he thinks I wouldnt recognise me...switch the bloody machines off and let me go.

Andy Pike ● 417d

Thanks, Jane, I know this is a sensitive area, and as you say it's almost an irreconcilable difference, and I wasn't intending to be patronising.However, people have different ways of dealing with this. One friend who is a married, lapsed monk but still a devout Catholic believer quized me on my reasons. An old friend from my University days who I met several decades later at a friend's 60th birthday who is now a Catholic priest ordained in Opus Dei was very concerned about me. When he left he asked me if I minded if he prayed for me. I politely said yes - I didn't want to upset him or my other friend whose birthday it was. I occasionally joked about my views with a Muslim colleague. I probably phrased it that way as I have friends, ex-colleages and acquaintances of many religions - CoE, RC, Quaker, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh - so I try to recognise the differences they have in religions that are specific to them as individuals. Hence an easy way (perhaps it's a lazy way?), it seems to me, is to refer to "their" religion or god as opposed to that of someone else. My friends might disagree with me about religion but they seem to accept my views.

Michael Ixer ● 417d

I dont think it was intended here in a patronising way. I’m just not sure how an atheist should refer to ‘God’ when they don’t believe?

Jane Carter ● 417d

Jane Carter. I'm afraid the "their" IS patronising in the way it is often used by unbelievers, particularly when they have an axe to grind.

Alexander MacLeod ● 418d

Mr MacLeod. I can agree with you that this is a contentious issue. I suppose when I was younger I may have tended towards agnosticism but over the years my views hardened towards atheism. That journey, and my previous response, might be because the whole of religions around the world does look like a labyrinth to me. Others (Richard Dawkins?) have noted that one's religion is in the main determined by where one is born, although I think the religion of one's parents is also an important determining factor. I suppose some might use Pascal's Wager to determine their view on God, but that doesn’t seem very sincere to me and perhaps doesn’t mean they live a good life.

Michael Ixer ● 419d

When Michal Ixer wrote:  "Obviously, I would respect those who have strong religious feelings and believe it's a sin to take the decision away from their God..." I thought nothing of it.  When Michael said their God, I understood it as meaning the individuals' God, not their religion.While people do not possess God, they do possess belief in the God they worship, be he known as God, Allah or HaShem. And all believe there is one and only God....

Ivonne Holliday ● 419d

Mr Ixer: Your labyrinthine response does not impress me, but it doesn't surprise me either. This is obviously a contentious area, but I have come to the conclusion that when comparing the stance of atheists with those of agnostics, I have more respect for the latter. It is surely better to wrestle with a topic than to close one's mind to it. I don't think Esther Rantzen has brains enough to offer persuasive advice.

Alexander MacLeod ● 419d

For me the question  is why am I allowed to do it in Zurich but not in Putney High Street. One law for the rich,an invasion of my human rights?Society must face up to the consequences of  medicine turning terminal into critical and  allowing folk to live unspeakable lives at disastrous expense(see state of NHS)

Hugh Thompson ● 419d

Well, my mum must have thought there was a God, I fell of a chair when I was a Kid and I said god help me, my mum went mad, don't ask God to help you. Or say Gord Blimey.

Barbara Stevens ● 419d

It may be true that God is not possessed by anyone but Christians do frequently refer to ‘My God’, ‘Our God’, ‘Our Father’ etc so it’s not really patronising for atheists or people of other faiths to refer to ‘their God’.

Jane Carter ● 419d

It wasn't meant in a patronising way but for those of us who don't believe in a god it's difficult to relate to the concept and describe it. How does one relate the Religions and God of the Books to the deities or philosophies of Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Shintoism, Confucianism, Daoism, etc (and I know there's some overlapping deities and ideologies as well as differences and inconsistencies there). Would, for example, Christians refer to "their gods" when referring to the deities of Hindus, etc rather than the god Christians worship? If so, is that more patronising than my comment, and if I start with the premise "god does not exist" and others define many gods for their religions don't I have to say "their" to identify specific gods to the different religion? 

Michael Ixer ● 419d

M Ixer. What's this about "their" God? God is not possessed by anyone. God is, or is not, according to personal conviction, but don't patronise those for whom God is a reality. He is not "their" God. He is God.

Alexander MacLeod ● 419d

Currently there is the problem that by the time you decide that you have had enough of life perhaps because it is too difficult and painful you will not be able to travel to Switzerland.  I read of someone who had to hire a motorhome and drive to Switzerland with their loved one.  To then be taken to court in the UK for assisting a death would not be a very welcome result for all the physical and emotional energy expended.There are some wonderful hospices in this country where families and friends can gather and take turns at the bedside to say their goodbyes and where there is pain relief available without having to wait in agony for a District Nurse on call to arrive.  Some have beautiful gardens and quiet common rooms where you can also reflect on life and on death.  There just aren't enough.

Philippa Bond ● 419d

Wrong thread!

Michael Ixer ● 419d

I find it rather ironic that on the thread about dignity in dying the sixth commandment and how sacred life is has been quoted. I know in the real world that's never honoured, irrespective of religion. (My mother learned decades ago when she was a secretary at the Church Army that many religious leaders are hypocritical.) However, the cynic in me wonders how the Hamas leaders safe in Qatar or carrying out negotiations in Egypt will be removed by the action in Gaza. It strikes me that with the support of their allies in Iran they will reform at sometime and will have plenty of volunteers with Palestinians in Gaza who were bombed, maimed, orphaned, and witnessed siblings and friends killed? No one seems prepared the address that question ...That doesn't mean Israel shouldn't take action but given the likelihood of success is it wise or proportionate? This isn't quite the same as WWII; there were no support of the Nazis in the way Iran supports Hamas ... and China and other countries are likely using this situation for their own political purposes in Africa andelsewhere. It's also not true that everyone supported the area bombing of German cities; some considered it a distraction from the main military objectives and more as retribution for the Blitz to demoralise the civilian population, and after the war some considered "Bomber Harris" a war criminal. Before my time and it was a world war against facists so I won't judge; perhaps I'd just like to think we've moved on, but my mistake!

Michael Ixer ● 419d

It's interesting how many of those following "religions of the book" and therefore adhering to the commandments seem happy to blast each other to pieces irrespectiveof #6. Then there are the existential threats to the whole human race from environmental and climate change that perhaps should be preached about? Personally, I see those issues as more of a problem than people who are in pain and not likely to improve or lead a useful life deciding to quit sooner rather than latter. Obviously as "sacred" is a religious term it doesn't really relate to atheism but I'd guess most athiests would agree about the importance of life and death being an issue of primary importance - perhaps some football fans or managers would disagree?Seriously, I would consider It's so important that one needs to consider an individual's feelings of pain and despair when they make a decision to die because they know they're not going to recover. Obviously, I would respect those who have strong religious feelings and believe it's a sin to take the decision away from their God, but otherwise I'd agree with Lucille that it's my body and it should be my decision to end life if it should become intolerable with no chance of improvement. Incidentally, I did have a friend, a Swiss resident, who had chronic, painful ailments with no chance of improvement but getting progressively worse - and with a growing distrust of medical professionals they thought were looking for a guinea pig to experiment on - who decided to take this route while still able to do so.

Michael Ixer ● 419d

I agree, but it is also true that if a person is suffering with lots of pain, who are we to say no?While I agree that life is sacred, being in pain is horrific too.  It is not going against the 6th commandment but everybody is free to interpret the pros and cons of assisted suicide as they wish.

Ivonne Holliday ● 419d

I mentioned the 6th commandment because it concerns the sacredness of human life, which makes it  relevant. Atheists may choose to ignore the commandment, but that does not invalidate it. Like quite a lot of discourse on this forum, life and death issues are at risk of being reduced to careless conversation. I can't think of a more important question than life and death. Can you?

Alexander MacLeod ● 420d

I wonder if people got to the stage of being in pain and having morphine pu.ped in them whether they'd escalate those numbers from 1 in 10. Of course, it's not murder (Commandment #6) but assisted suicide - at least, in the Swiss model.

Michael Ixer ● 420d

I must be the one in ten then. Although I find it hard to believe the figures. It's my life, my body and rather than die in excruciating pain in undignified circumstances I would very much appreciate being able to decide when and how I die.

Lucille Grant ● 420d

I came across some research the other day that found that while 7 out of 10 people favoured assisted dying in principle, the figure fell to 1 in 10 when asked if they would consider it for themselves. And by the way, what about the sixth commandment? Shouldn't that be factored into any serious discussion of the matter? Just asking.

Alexander MacLeod ● 420d

I came across some research the other day that found that while 7 out of 10 people favoured assisted dying in principle, the figure fell to 1 in 10 when asked if they would consider it for themselves. And by the way, what about the sixth commandment? Shouldn't that be factored into any serious discussion of the matter? Just asking.

Alexander MacLeod ● 420d

I liked Esther Rantzen in her programme That's Life (I think it was called).  Some of her April Fools' jokes were great.One thing we need to understand or accept that, if there is life there will be death.I think it would be very helpful if we became more open about death - it happens.  But open in such a way as to not frighten people, particularly children.  The age range for children is up for discussion but, the more natural we are about the subject, they will accept it as a fact of life - which it is.I think we all fear death in different degrees. I was once told that I cringed at the thought of it because I was young.  I am not altogether sure this is true but we all reconcile ourselves that we will die one day.The death of pets, as devastating as it is, is one way of starting to talk about the subject in general.

Ivonne Holliday ● 420d

One of the reasons that we have so much trouble dealing with death is simply BECAUSE we don't talk about it ENOUGH.  I welcome Esther bringing this discussion to the fore. That doesn't mean that I agree with her.  I was asked if I would take someone to Dignitas in Switzerland but felt that I wasn't the right person to do this and that her relatives should if this is what she really wanted.  I still feel guilty.  I've spent more time trying to make life easier for those struggling with the challenges of old age and illness and wish there was more help avakilable adjusting to both. There does seem to be more if you have particular terminal illnesses and especially if you are thought to have less than a certain stipulated amount of time to live - only no-one really knows how long! What is very important is that there are enough hospices and they are funded better so that they are available for not just end of life care but the help that they can give people having difficulty dealing with their medication - particularly when  different meds aren't working well together.  We are all different.

Philippa Bond ● 421d

My dad died when I was 12, after being in the Navy years, I was just told your dads not feeling to well don't go in the bedroom and say goodnight. Then in the morning I was told. I wasn't allowed to go to the Funeral, I was to young, so I came home from school and saw the Hearse going out of the road. Then when they came back, I was told to go out and play.

Barbara Stevens ● 421d

My father had early-onset Parkinson's. I never saw him smile, a feature of the disease. When I was 9 he had a massive heat attack which rendered him bedridden to be cared for by my mother and me, an only child. He had frequent heart attacks until he died when I was 11. I lived with death, or the threat of death throughout my early childhood. Some things you can't avoid.I think Ed Davey had similar experiences.

Elizabeth Balsom ● 421d

Well Richard, lets tell children about death, I bet the little mites say I don't like him mummy, I wish he was dead.

Barbara Stevens ● 422d

She may be "an unreliable source", I've no take on her generally but she, greatly to her credit, has raised this issue in a way that many otherwise reliable sources have been unable to.As for the "not in front of the children" nonsense, we need to talk about death in a serious manner and not be infantilised by control freaks.

Richard Carter ● 422d

Lucille, I'd agree with that; although I only know the outline of Esther's views her petition has at least caused this topic to be debated in parliament today.

Michael Ixer ● 422d

Lucille, I can understand people who are so ill want to end their Life. But not on TV continually before Christmas and first thing in the morning,  Put it on later in the evening when children won't see it. I can remember when my son was young, if he had a cold, he said  am I going to die.  Another young girl said to him, my mum said we are all going to die some time. My son was so upset. This is 6 year old's.  SAD.

Barbara Stevens ● 422d

Personally I agree 100% with Esther Rantzen's views on assisted dying. So will many others including the 200,000 who supported the petition for another (serious) debate in Parliament. However, there won't be a vote this time. Sir Keir Starmer has restated his longstanding support for assisted dying, and said as Prime Minister he would be open to making parliamentary time for a free vote. As human beings we should be making sure that every terminally ill or incurably suffering person has control over their own body. The right to die is intrinsically tied to the right to bodily autonomy, one of the basic rights that define what it means to be human.

Lucille Grant ● 422d

Rantzen is an unreliable source at the best of times, and on assisted dying is not worth listening to. There is room for a serious debate about the issue, but Rantzen is the last person to follow.

Alexander MacLeod ● 422d

Rantzen is an unreliable source at the best of times, and on assisted dying is not worth listening to. There is room for a serious debate about the issue, but Rantzen is the last person to follow.

Alexander MacLeod ● 422d