Forum Topic

Double standards - one rule for them and another for us

The Campaign Against AntiSemitism has just released a statement. This is part of it:There was a planned Walk Together between midday and 2.00 pm in London tomorrow in which there has been enormous interest. There are Jewish communities whose rabbis have given dispensation to their congregants to walk for hours on Shabbat in order to come to central London. Such is the depth of feeling among British Jews about the weekly marches, the record-breaking levels of antisemitism, and the repeated police failures.Tomorrow’s march by the Palestine Solidarity Campaign meanders for two-and-a-half miles, from Parliament Square to Reformer’s Tree in Hyde Park. WHEN WE ORGANISED OUR PEACEFUL MARCH AGAINST ANTISEMITISM A FEW MONTHS AGO WE WERE TOLD THAT THERE WAS NO WAY THAT THE ROYAL PARKS COULD BE USED.  YET AGAIN, IT SEEMS THERE IS A DOUBLE STANDARD... Police have told us that they intend to handle the march no differently from the passive way that they have become accustomed to over the course of more than six months. During that time, WE HAVE BECOME ALL TOO USED TO SEEING ANTISEMITIC CHANTS AND PLACARDS at these marches, glorification of terrorism ... Yesterday we met with the Home Secretary and the Minister for Policing to propose concrete measures which can force the police to change their approach. This situation cannot endure much longer and firm action is needed urgently, which we made clear at the meeting.Our Director of Investigations and Enforcement,..., also met with the Metropolitan Police Service yesterday, which told him of its desire to protect Jews walking in the area, but we have a responsibility to be sure that they can. Due to the thousands of people now intending to join and then walk where they please – something that we used to take for granted in London as Jewish people without having to discuss with police ahead of time – we still do not have confidence that people would be safe.ADDITIONALLY WE HAVE RECEIVED NUMEROUS THREATS AND OUR MONITORING HAS IDENTIFIED HOSTILE(S) WHO SEEM TO HAVE INTENDED TO COME TO ANY MEETING LOCATIONS THAT WE ANNOUNCED. THE RISK TO THE SAFETY OF THOSE WHO WISHED TO WALK OPENLY AS JEWS IN LONDON TOMORROW AS PART OF THIS INITIATIVE HAS THEREFORE BECOME TOO GREAT.We are no less angry about these marches than our Jewish community and its allies. WE WANT TO WALK. We want to force the Met to police these marches, not merely manage them. BUT WE CANNOT ENCOURAGE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE TO WALK WHEN THERE ARE SUCH RISKS TO THEIR SAFETY, AND THERE ARE. We have reluctantly decided not to go ahead tomorrow... Tomorrow, we will watch to see whether anything is different about the way that the Met handles the march, and in the coming week we will progress our discussions with the Government. WE CANNOT ALLOW THE CURRENT SITUATION TO BECOME THE NEW NORMAL.NEEDLESS TO SAY I FOR ONE AM FURIOUS THAT AS A JEWISH WOMAN IT IS DEEMED TOO UNSAFE FOR ME TO WALK AMONG MY FELLOW JEWS TO PROTEST AGAINST ANTISEMITISM IN THIS COUNTRY. My father, who marched with antifascists at Cable Street, is turning in his grave.

Lucille Grant ● 11d61 Comments

I believe that the UK has banned Iranian Press TV while the EU and the UK have banned Russian RT.Does this imply that the UK nd the countries of the EU are not true democracies?

Steven Rose ● 1d

Meanwhile, the great democracy of Israel has decided it's such a great democracy that, er, it can't bear to have the voice of Al Jazeera in the country...

Richard Carter ● 1d

I am not sure you understand. The BBC Arabic  correspondents think that the State of Israel itself (not just the West Bank) is under occupation.

Steven Rose ● 2d

https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-report-on-international-religious-freedom/israel-and-the-occupied-territories/israel-and-the-occupied-territories-the-occupied-territories/#:~:text=The%20Occupied%20Territories%2C%20which%20include,in%20much%20of%20the%20territory.You should also look at the barriers which Israel has put around Palestinian towns and villages making it impossible for them to reach their lands and businesses.  See also Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch before you make up your own ideas of life in an occupied homeland.

Philippa Bond ● 2d

The 'Them and Us' referred to was in the OP's post and referring to the march in London.  Perhaps you should have a look at the Occupied Palestinian Territories and another look at Lord Balfour's Declaration of 1917.

Philippa Bond ● 2d

I am not sure that the correspondents employed by by by BBC New Arabic to report on Gaza  are all local Palestinians. The service is broadcast from London, run by the World Service and funded by the licence fee. There are two matters of concern. One is the fact that these 'errors' were repeated again and again even though the BBC received complaints about the broadcasts back in October. But even more important is the nature of the 'errors'. The correspondents were not just presenting a biased account of the conflict. By referring to Israelis as 'settlers' they were implicitly denying Israel's right to exist and by describing Hamas and Hezbollah as the 'Resistance' they were  clearly condoning terrorism. These views are held by most Palestinians both in Gaza and the West Bank and by many Muslims in Britain.

Steven Rose ● 2d

Mr Rose'The BBC was forced to corrects its Arabic channel’s coverage of the war in Gaza every other day on average during the first five months of the conflict'.This is mainly because it uses local 'correspondents', ie Palestinians, to make and deliver these reports.Don't want to sound too Mailish but the 'British' in BBC is becoming a little eyebrow raising !On the other hand were a born and bred native Brit be sent out there is no guarantee of any less biased reporting.The zeitgeist is 'pro_Palestine - anti Israel' throughout the media and in much of the country as a whole.

John Hawkes ● 2d

The BBC was forced to corrects its Arabic channel’s coverage of the war Iin Gaza every other day on average during the first five months of the conflict. Of the 80 corrections, 34 concerned references to territory  within  Israel’s internationally recognised  borders as ‘settlements’ and their residents as ‘settlers’. Hamas and Hezbollah were described as the ‘Resistance’ and attacks targeted at Israeli civilians were described as ‘resistance operations’.The Director General, Tim Davie, told Parliament that ‘we should be very proud of the BBC’s Arabic output’.

Steven Rose ● 2d

Mr Ixer'Mr Hawkes. I suspect, as has been indicated by others, that That ignores the rising imperialism of China and Russia. But I guess that's international politics. At least the traditional imperialists have a veneer of democracy whereas the new ones are authoritarian dictatorships. Just putting forward some ideas for you to shoot down!'I totally agree with you and my finger is far from the trigger !'some countries side with the Palestinians not because they care about them but because they are against the countries traditionally considered as imperialistic'.And this of course holds for individuals as well.

John Hawkes ● 5d

Watching BBC News, UCLA looks a bit of a mess. Not surprised having seen the tone of some US FB posts over the past few months. I know the background is different and news services have lots more visibility these days but I've got an earworm of CSN&Y's Ohio :-(

Michael Ixer ● 5d

Mr Hawkes. I suspect, as has been indicated by others, that some countries side with the Palestinians not because they care about them but because they are against the countries traditionally considered as imperialistic. That ignores the rising imperialism of China and Russia. But I guess that's international politics. At least the traditional imperialists have a veneer of democracy whereas the new ones are authoritarian dictatorships. Just putting forward some ideas for you to shoot down!

Michael Ixer ● 5d

Mr Hawkes. I have no doubt Israel will survive and it's important that it does. However, I don't believe it's current action will deliver a lasting peace. I can't see that coming about until there is also Plastinian state - but I've no idea how that's achieved. The two state solution goes back to the 1940s and the division of the middle east into the British Palestinian mandate and French Lebanon/Syriato the 1920s.   Perhaps some of the divisions where made by colonials not sensitive to local issues (in the same way the India/Pakistan split was done in a rather arbitrary way by a British civil servant)? I may well be wrong - just searching for ideas!

Michael Ixer ● 5d

Steven. As I said I  was playing devil's advocate with scenarios but although the Hamas leadership in Qatar and elsewhere aren't a direct military threat I think they strategically - my understanding is they say yes or no to a ceasefire and will likely in the future organise a Hamas version 2?

Michael Ixer ● 5d

Mr IxerPlus those numerous Muslim's elsewhere that are likely to be "upset" by such action? (And likely to have sympathisers outside of the "imperialistic " Europe, North America. "Australasia", ...)I assume your quotation marks indicate your sense of irony ?Please say they do !

John Hawkes ● 5d

Mr Brigo'"Thankfully we live safe and  sound in London without fear of terrorists burrowing beneath us with the sole aim of obliterating our country."Exactly, because by your logic if they did then it would be perfectly acceptable for the UK army to just bomb London back to the stone age'.Oh please !

John Hawkes ● 5d

Ms Bond'I also think it is a mistake to characterise the world as Them and Us because that really is too subjective and depends far too much on how much of a victim you may be feeling rather than the actual reality of the real-life situation.  We are in danger of being manipulated into being divided'.I wonder how much of a victim the Israeli women felt during the reality of being raped, sexually assaulted and kidnapped by Palestinians last October ?Perhaps subjectively you think they should have empathised with their attackers ?I hope I do not come across as sexist but I find your comments regarding what happened to Israeli fellow members of your sex rather strange.

John Hawkes ● 5d

Mr Ixer'That doesn't mean Israel shouldn't take action but given the likelihood of success is it wise or proportionate?'Are you implying Israel will or will not be successful ?If it is not the state of Israel is obliterated from the map and its people annihilated.It is thus written in the Hamas Charter.

John Hawkes ● 5d

Mr Rose'It is easy sitting in the comfort of Putney to counsel moderation'.So, so true.My imagination wanders to the Palestinian fellow travellers tying a black and white tea towel around their head and marching defiantly down the High Street to buy falafel in Waitrose.Members undoubtedly of the "Putney People's Front of Palestine" or is it "Palestinian People's Putney Front ?

John Hawkes ● 5d

Mr BrigoIs there life on Mars ?'So you actually believe that the Israeli population would tolerate over 30,000 dead civilians, killed by their own army as collateral damage in their attempts to wipe out Hamas? What planet do you live on?'Of course not and that is why the IDF would take circumspect and well planned steps to protect their own as they try to eliminate Palestinian aggressors.But probably and quite naturally they have less concern over Palestinian casualties as we too surely had in WWII with regard to Germans and the Japanese.

John Hawkes ● 5d

Mr Brigo'Had Hamas secretly dug a tunnel network under an Israeli city - do you think the IDF would be using EXACTLY the same tactics to get them out?'Of course not and why should they ?Their aim is to defeat the Palestinian aggressors tunnelled under Gaza and thus they should show little concern over their welfare.This is war.Were Palestinians tunnelled under an Israeli city then of course Israel would attempt to eliminate them using more circumspect ways in order to safeguard their own people.Were you responsible for defending your people from annihilation would you do differently ?

John Hawkes ● 5d

Mr Carter'I agreed already that a response to the horrors of October 7th was essential, but it should have been an intelligence-led approach, rather than the indiscriminant shelling and bombing that has been going on now for months and that has caused so many people to lose sympathy for Israel'.I did not know you were a specialist in counter-terrorism.What a shame your approach was not used by Churchill in WWII.Instead of taking the fight to the Germans and bombing them when they blitzed and tried to eliminate us, we should have sent in spies to Berlin, found out where German forces were based and hiding and then killed them one by one.If people have lost faith with Israel it is because of an insidious campaign, successful unfortunately, to misrepresent the events since last October; namely Israel was invaded by the Palestinians and women and children were killed, raped, sexually assaulted and kidnapped.Their brave attackers hide themselves in tunnels and amongst the general population meaning Israel's attempts to repel and eliminate  them will inevitably lead to unwanted collateral civilian casualties.Unwanted by Israel because the anti-Israeli movement can then harp on about such consequences to paint Israel in the worst possible light causing the loss of sympathy you imply that you regret. Unwanted by the Palestinians ?Probably at the least they are unconcerned as it is difficult not to view the portrayal of the casualties and displaced civilians with anything but sympathy which the unthinking then extend to Palestinian terrorists as well. Remember the basic facts in this conflict: Palestinians invade Israel; Israel retaliates to prevent such happening again. 

John Hawkes ● 5d

Michael, in contrast to the Allies during the Second World War, who killed hundreds of thousands of German civilians, the Israelis have gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties. The idea that they would be prepared to kill the entire population of Gaza just to eradicate Hamas is absurd. But they cannot allow Hamas to remain in power. Hamas may not have the capability at present to destroy the State of Israel but October 7 shows that they have the power to destroy the lives of over 1000  Israelis and cause 200 000 more to abandon their homes.The Hamas leadership hiding in Qatar, Iran and elsewhere don’t represent a significant threat. The problem is the presence of Hamas in Gaza, where they they have equipped a considerable fighting force ready and willing to attack Israel. As to the West Bank, I am afraid I don’t have a solution. Ideally Israel should dismantle the settlements and withdraw their security forces. But this is not going to happen as long as Israel fears that the West Bank could become a second Gaza, that is, a launch pad for further attacks.

Steven Rose ● 6d

So, you could argue it's worth killing anyone, possibly every one - although that's probably unlikely, living in Gaza if that extinguishes Hamas and prevents future attacks? Fair enough,  if that thwarts Hamas’s unrealistic aims to remove Israel and all Jews. (OK, I'm playing "devil's" advocate there.) However, the question you haven't answered is how that deals with the Hamas leaders in Qatar and elsewhere, and allies in Iran and elsewhere, and the remaining alienated populous in the West Bank? Plus those numerous Muslim's elsewhere that are likely to be "upset" by such action? (And likely to have sympathisers outside of the "imperialistic " Europe, North America. "Australasia", ...)

Michael Ixer ● 6d

Michael, I am not sure what would constitute a ‘wise and proportionate’ response to an atrocity involving rape, mutilation and slaughter, which its perpetrators have threatened to repeat ‘again and again’. The bottom line is that Israel cannot afford to allow Hamas to remain in Gaza, ready to regroup, rearm and strike again.

Steven Rose ● 6d

"Thankfully we live safe and  sound in London without fear of terrorists burrowing beneath us with the sole aim of obliterating our country."Exactly, because by your logic if they did then it would be perfectly acceptable for the UK army to just bomb London back to the stone age.

Michael Brigo ● 6d

'You'd think that nobody had basements or cellars and that there weren't any underground tunnels in London or in other major cities - hot OR cold - the way that the tunnels in Gaza are spoken about!'Are you being deliberately obtuse? Of course there are tunnels and basements (dozens of them in Putney alone!) but they are not all joined up into tunnels wide enough for armoured vehicles to pass through, miles and miles of tunnels where Hamas terrorists live/lived and planned their atrocities.Thankfully we live safe and  sound in London without fear of terrorists burrowing beneath us with the sole aim of obliterating our country.

Lucille Grant ● 6d

You'd think that nobody had basements or cellars and that there weren't any underground tunnels in London or in other major cities - hot OR cold - the way that the tunnels in Gaza are spoken about!I also think it is a mistake to characterise the world as Them and Us because that really is too subjective and depends far too much on how much of a victim you may be feeling rather than the actual reality of the real-life situation.  We are in danger of being manipulated into being divided.Bad things happen all the time BUT so do good things.  It can depend on whether you are a glass half-full or glass half-empty person and can depend on other things - like the weather on how you see them!

Philippa Bond ● 6d

I find it rather ironic that on the thread about dignity in dying the sixth commandment and how sacred life is has been quoted. I know in the real world that's never honoured, irrespective of religion. (My mother learned decades ago when she was a secretary at the Church Army that many religious leaders are hypocritical.) However, the cynic in me wonders how the Hamas leaders safe in Qatar or carrying out negotiations in Egypt will be removed by the action in Gaza. It strikes me that with the support of their allies in Iran they will reform at sometime and will have plenty of volunteers with Palestinians in Gaza who were bombed, maimed, orphaned, and witnessed siblings and friends killed? No one seems prepared the address that question ...That doesn't mean Israel shouldn't take action but given the likelihood of success is it wise or proportionate? This isn't quite the same as WWII; there were no support of the Nazis in the way Iran supports Hamas ... and China and other countries are likely using this situation for their own political purposes in Africa andelsewhere. It's also not true that everyone supported the area bombing of German cities; some considered it a distraction from the main military objectives and more as retribution for the Blitz to demoralise the civilian population, and after the war some considered "Bomber Harris" a war criminal. Before my time and it was a world war against facists so I won't judge; perhaps I'd just like to think we've moved on, but my mistake!

Michael Ixer ● 6d

The total number of Palestinians killed is 34 000 according to the 'Hamas Health Ministry'. This number includes Hamas fighters, who according to Israel account for up to half of the total. The idea that 30 000 civilians have been killed has no basis on fact.

Steven Rose ● 6d

The Israeli campaign is intelligence  led, which is why the ratio of civilian to Hamas casualties is near 1: 1, rather than the usual figure of 10 : 1 when fighters are embedded in the civilian population. That is not to say that there haven't been mistakes, such as when hostages or aid workers were killed. It is not true that the Israelis indulge in indiscriminate shelling. They have tried to minimise civilian casualties where possible though tragically many civilians have died.

Steven Rose ● 6d

Sorry, you are sounding a little confused.The IDF has killed 30,000 CIVILIANS - and a load of Hamas fighters i'm sure.If it is the case the the IDF is so casual with the lives of it's own civilian population then that's a great tactic for Hamas to use next time. Why bother killing a few thousand civilians? Just dig some tunnels and wait for the IDF to bomb Tel-Aviv to dust!?

Michael Brigo ● 6d

@ Michael Brito.  I’m living in the real world. Hamas started this with 30,000 plus fighters.  For context the British Army has c.80,000 soldiers though a more accurate comparison would be with our Infantry Divisions which comprise c.16,000 soldiers.  If, in your fantasy world, Hamas were to infiltrate it’s 30,000+  under an Israeli city the Israelis would demand that the IDF destroy them.

Robert Wheeler ● 6d

See my response tte question at 01/05/24 13:57:00

Richard Carter ● 6d

So you actually believe that the Israeli population would tolerate over 30,000 dead civilians, killed by their own army as collateral damage in their attempts to wipe out Hamas?What planet do you live on?

Michael Brigo ● 6d

The phrase, ‘an eye for an eye’ , implies that Israel’s campaign in Gaza is some kind of retaliation for the atrocity of October 7. It isn’t a  revenge mission. Its aim is to eradicate the terrorists who have threatened to repeat the massacre ‘again and again’. According to Israeli intelligence assessments, 18 of Hamas’ 24  battalions have been dismantled and about half its fighting force of 40 000 have been killed or wounded. It is likely that up to a half of the total number of Palestinians killed are actually Hamas fighters, some of whom may have participated in the  October pogrom.The phrase  ‘some kind of response was clearly essential’ is impossibly vague. What kind of response would have been appropriate? A quick artillery barrage just to warn Hamas not to do it again? It is easy sitting in the comfort of Putney to counsel moderation. But hundreds of thousands of Israelis in fear of their lives have been forced to leave their homes in the south of the country. They expect their government to remove the threat posed by Hamas as well as to recover the hostages.  So I repeat my question. What should the  Israeli government do about a terrorist organisation which has taken possession of an adjoining territory and has vowed to destroy the State of Israel and kill or expel its Jewish population?

Steven Rose ● 6d

Yes if they had taken innocent people hostages.Wouldn’t you do anything to protect your family?

Robert Wheeler ● 6d

Genuine question.Had Hamas secretly dug a tunnel network under an Israeli city - do you think the IDF would be using EXACTLY the same tactics to get them out?

Michael Brigo ● 6d

I don’t believe Israel is losing sympathy while the hostages are still held.  As Lucille quite rightly points out Hamas took to the tunnels and left the civilians on the ground sacrificing them knowing full well what was going to happen.  How else would you defeat an enemy recognised to have 30,000 fighters vowed to your destruction.I am sick to death of the marches, the ignorant yelling and flag waving.  Getting back to the start of this thread double standard one rule for them and one for us, try wearing a skull cap in Central London during one of these marches.  Shameful.

Robert Wheeler ● 6d

I agreed already that a response to the horrors of October 7th was essential, but it should have been an intelligence-led approach, rather than the indiscriminant shelling and bombing that has been going on now for months and that has caused so many people to lose sympathy for Israel.

Richard Carter ● 6d

Richard in case you haven't noticed Hamas has/had a complete underground 'city' with miles and miles of tunnels running underneath Gaza. How else would any army defeat its enemy without bombing the ground above those tunnels? Homes, hospitals, schools etc are all above ground on top of where Hamas holds/held its armaments and rocket launchers. It may well appear disproportionate to those on the outside of this conflict but I doubt it's considered so by most Israeli citizens who want the hostages back and Hamas destroyed.

Lucille Grant ● 6d

A response was clearly essential, but not, perhaps, by killing so many of the inhabitants of Gaza? 'An eye for an eye' is one thing, but 30 eyes for an eye - and counting - does seem somewhat disproportionate.

Richard Carter ● 6d

The civilian deaths in Gaza are tragic but how is Israel supposed to remove the threat of a terrorist organisation who shelter behind civilians?

Steven Rose ● 6d

I'm sure you are right, I dont dispute any of the above, nor do I defend Hamas in any way.

Michael Brigo ● 6d

I think this post shows that we are not as far apart as we think sometimes. Thank you John.

Michael Brigo ● 6d

Mr Brigo'As I believe you have pointed out a number of times, there is no 'governement' as such in Gaza'.Do you understand why this is the case ?I am sure the UN would be more than willing and capable of arranging one.Is it because the Hamas bully boys are fearful the result might take away their undemocratic control and that their purpose in life would go away ?No more lording it over the population with guns or sitting around the cafes with their shishas anticipating the benefits of martyrdom -https://islamqa.org/hanafi/seekersguidance-hanafi/31643/72-virgins-for-martyrs-making-sense-of-one-of-the-rewards-of-paradise/ “The martyr has six unique traits: he is forgiven immediately; he sees his seat in Paradise and he is saved from the punishment of the grave; he is granted safety from the great terror [of the Day of Judgment]; a crown of honor is placed upon his head, a ruby of which is better than this life and all it contains; he is married to 72 maidens of Paradise; and he is allowed to intercede for 70 relatives.”

John Hawkes ● 6d

Mr Carter'This argument that the current conflict over Gaza is an entirely new war is real angels dancing on a pin stuff, and it has not entirely honest objectives - enabling the claim that Israel is simply reacting to the October 7th attacks as if they occurred in a vacuum.The truth is that this is not a separate war, but a new stage in an ongoing conflict, and saying so does not excuse either Hamas's terrible attack or Israel's OTTP response to it'.Oh aren't those historical vacuums useful when it comes to justifying things that happen today and many find questionable !  It seems to me that as far as you are concerned those of us that are posting on the October pogrom are just doing it for their own intellectual self-indulgence and 'Palestine' bashing.Not true.I for one am trying to point out what Israel has had to fight against and still does in order to survive You are right of course in that this is an ongoing conflict; one where Arabs have never recognised the fact that Jews have been residing in the wider definition of 'Palestine' for millennia and still claim the right to do so.And further the State of Israel was formally established after its Declaration of Independence on 14 May 1948, and crucially was admitted to the United Nations (UN) as a full member state on 11 May 1949. As of December 2020, it has received diplomatic recognition from 165 (or 85%) of the 193 total UN member states, and also maintains bilateral ties with all of the Permanent Five.Countries not recognising its right to exist are mainly Muslim with questionable adherences to democracy, or to use Donald trump's crude yet apt adjective 'tinpot' in nature.

John Hawkes ● 6d

Once again, a distinction without a difference.

Richard Carter ● 6d

As I believe you have pointed out a number of times, there is no 'governement' as such in Gaza.Were there to be an investigation I'd love the see the perpetrators tried and locked up, failing that it doesnt particularly bother me if Israel executes them - I just don't agree with their current methods that involve a dispropotionate amount of civilian deaths and suffering.

Michael Brigo ● 6d

Mr BrigoTo me it looks as if Israel is addressing this and has started steps to reprimand in some way the perpetrators.Just remind me; who on the Palestinian side of the conflict is investigating Hamas and what it did on 7th October 2023 and is, in terms of hostage holding, still doing ?What is your expectation of the outcome of this investigation were it to take place and how do you think the butchers involved this pogrom will be dealt with ?

John Hawkes ● 6d

I don’t understand why my reference to Israeli retaliation to rocket attacks from Gaza was replaced by ‘gross violations’ in Michael Brigo’s post. As the ‘Guardian’ makes clear, none of  the violations identified by the State Department occurred in Gaza, a fact which Michael omitted to mention. Before October 7 last year there were no Israeli army units operating in Gaza. In any case four of the five units involved in violations on the West Bank have been disciplined and commanders have been dismissed. A fifth unit is currently under investigation by Israeli authorities. The view that the conflict in Gaza is part of the wider struggle of the Palestinians for an independent state  is misleading. To begin with, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Secondly Hamas has no authority to speak for Palestinians on the West Bank, which is administered by the Palestinian Authority . The main constituent of the Palestinian Authority is Fatah, whose leaders in Gaza were murdered by Hamas in 2007, some of them thrown off buildings. Thirdly, and this is the most important point, Hamas are not fighting to obtain autonomy for Palestinians within a two state solution. Their aim is to destroy the State of Israel, kill or expel its Jewish population and create a unitary Palestinian state on what they consider to be Muslim lands. Hamas are simply a vicious terrorist organisation.

Steven Rose ● 6d

Sorry, that should have been OTT (Over The Top).

Richard Carter ● 6d

This argument that the current conflict over Gaza is an entirely new war is real angels dancing on a pin stuff, and it has not entirely honest objectives - enabling the claim that Israel is simply reacting to the October 7th attacks as if they occurred in a vacuum.The truth is that this is not a separate war, but a new stage in an ongoing conflict, and saying so does not excuse either Hamas's terrible attack or Israel's OTTP response to it.

Richard Carter ● 6d

Well said Steven.

Lucille Grant ● 7d

Prior to October 7 there had been rocket attacks by Hamas and Islamic Jihad and some skirmishes, followed by Israeli retaliation gross violation of human rights by Israeli forces.

Michael Brigo ● 7d

The phrase, ‘the war didn’t start on October 7’, is obtuse and offensive Prior to October 7 there had been rocket attacks by Hamas and Islamic Jihad and some skirmishes, followed by Israeli retaliation. But Israel was clearly seeking some kind of modus vivendi. For example, Israel granted up to 18000 visas per year for Gazans who wished to work in Israel. Local kibbutzniks (many  of whom were murdered by Hamas on October 7)  used to ferry Palestinians to Israeli hospitals and so on. The relationship between Israel and Gaza was fraught but it was not one of open warfare. The assault organised by Hamas on  October 7, even if it had been directed at military objectives, would have represented an unprovoked escalation. But it wasn’t a military operation in any accepted sense. It was an unspeakable atrocity  in which civilians were subjected to rape and torture before being slaughtered. To set something like that in the context of the Palestinians’ struggle for an independent state on the West Bank is like explaining Auschwitz in terms of the Treaty of Versailles which imposed unfair conditions on Germany at the end of the First World War.But

Steven Rose ● 7d

October the 7th is not a war crime.It was a barbaric act of terrorism carried out by cowards.

Andy Pike ● 7d

That's right, absolutely nothing happened before October the 7th. Yet again I will point out that nothing justifies what Hamas did and obviously they are guilty of war crimes. But as the point has been repeatedly made, this situation has been going on for a lot longer than October 2023 — to the point where even the US state department (that long time critic of Israel — not!) accepts that gross violations of human rights were commited.

Michael Brigo ● 7d

Ms Bond' I think it would be far worse to ignore and deny the conflict'.I am beginning to lose track here.What conflict are we talking about ?That which started on 7th October 2023 with the pogrom on Jewish women and children launched by the Palestinians from Gaza, or the historic battles between Israeli Jews and Arabs from all its surrounding neighbours going back millennia ? I note 'There are and have been Jews protesting within the groups calling for an end to hostilities'.Are there many Palestinians joining Jewish protests demanding their right to exist ?'

John Hawkes ● 7d

Not everyone is only interested in what is now or ever has been happening here in the UK - or even just in Putney.  We have radio and television and the internet and the world is no longer as far away or as hard to communicate with or travel to as it once was. Considering the numbers of people protesting of all faiths and none against what is happening and what has happened and wanting an end to it.  There are and have been Jews protesting within the groups calling for an end to hostilities.There are likely to always be provocateurs of one kind or another but to give and increase the anxiety of  A N Y O N E  walking in the street is unnecessary.  The police are there for a reason. I think it would be far worse to ignore and deny the conflict.

Philippa Bond ● 7d

Mr Wheeler'The wider population need to wake up to what is going on here'.Unfortunately I am sure the wider public knows little nor cares less. And in some ways who can blame them as the origins and now centre of the Israel/Palestine conflict lie overseas.However I am certain they have very little sympathy for the Palestinians for I am sure the October pogrom and how Jewish women and children were treated by them did register.And they probably just shrug their shoulders over the ritual Saturday pro-Palestine marches and say 'typical' or 'why are they here ?' when they notice who the participants are. Unfortunately the Palestinians and their fellow travellers seem to have won the wider media PR battle.Hence the public is unaware of pro-Israel/Jewish demonstrations and the risks Jews run on the streets of some parts of our big cities.But in the main I am sure that in the battle for sympathy the Jews would win over the Arabs. Let's hope they do for if not we risk seeing our once ethnically harmonious and peaceful society changed violently for the worse.

John Hawkes ● 8d

Thank you for this information Lucille.  Truly shocking that this level of antisemitism is tolerated in the 21st century.  Having grown up in the West End l cannot now walk freely where l choose.  Why?The wider population need to wake up to what is going on here.

Robert Wheeler ● 11d