Forum Topic

The good guys

Michael Brigo ● 16d101 Comments

Mr Hawkes. I was just debating some possible scenarios. They probably genuinely hold those views because they have been given dis/mis-information from sources they believe (although they are mistaken) that the sources providing them are trustworthy. They may be prepared to trust those sources as they feel other sources have been islamophobic in the past. If one has experienced discrimination from authority on previous occasions one may be inclined to believe an alternative source one feels is more reliable. An analogy is people believing maverick doctors peddling antivax information over doctors promoting the official recommendations to get vaccinated. That's because of mistrust in the government or drug companies; that mistrust may be brought about because of previous bad actions by both drugs companies and government bodies: the thalidomide, contaminated blood products, the Sackler opiates scandals.Muslim immigrants may look at how Windrush immigrants were mistreated by the government and be prepared to believe the social media disinformation that October 7th was a false flag operation or Imams telling them that Sharia law is preferable to British law that discriminates against them ... bad actions by authorities or other organisations that seed mistrust can have a lot of unwanted repercussions that are difficult to reverse. Just a hypothesis to consider?

Michael Ixer ● 8d

Mr Ixer'to what extent these views have been influenced by dis/mis-information on social media or word of mouth in religious institutions, and have been reinforce by experiencing Islamaphobia'? Do you mean that 'social media or word of mouth in religious institutions' have been misleading them and in fact Muslims do NOT in fact hold the views the HJS claims they do ?Or do you mean they are genuinely held and are as a result of experiencing Islamophobia from the indigenous British public ?

John Hawkes ● 8d

Mr Ixer'One could argue it's unreasonable that London pays the cost of police many of these marches that are concerned with national and international issues rather than local ones, and that central government should foot the bill for these'.By 'foot the bill' I assume you simply mean providing crowd control and similar measures rather than in any other way financially assisting them.But as I have suggested before, for demonstrations regarding issues like the Israel-Palestine conflict where we have no specific interest and many (most?) participants are non-British I would hazard a guess, if the organisers insist they take place in the UK rather than on their own turf (the West Bank if Gaza is a bit dangerous) then perhaps they should be charged for direct costs and those indirect ones caused by disruption to the general public. For the taxpayer, this could be a 'nice little earner' as Arthur Daley might have said; alongside the 'higher education' business that seems to be flourishing and of which it would seem so many of the demonstrators are customers.

John Hawkes ● 8d

Was it a good post? The action to keep the underground rolling and avoid businesses losing money from a lack of transport seems completely irrelevant to policing of demonstrations. I think we've already gone round the houses about the cost of freedom to demonstrate and it quotes the police as saying these were non violent apart from a minority of protesters. (I have to go by what the police say as the only marches I've been on in five decades are a couple of anti Brexit ones and they seemed peaceful, family affairs.)I wouldn't want to get to the situation as occurred in Brussels where, as far as I understand it, the mayor used the police to try and shut down the conference Farage and Braverman and others were speaking at. I'm opposed to their views but I'd rather know what that are so that they can be opposed openly and challenged rationally. One could argue it's unreasonable that London pays the cost of police many of these marches that are concerned with national and international issues rather than local ones, and that central government should foot the bill for these.

Michael Ixer ● 8d

Your problem? You see an olive branch and take it as a threat."But do you never have any doubts that the actions of the Palestinians in October 2023 when they attacked Israel were really horribly barbaric?I have lost count of the number of times I've said that the Hamas attacks on October 7th were vile and beyond the pale (metaphor chosen deliberately). When will you stop pushing your unpleasant smear? Never, I guess, which means that I will no longer respond to your posts.

Richard Carter ● 8d

I wonder, if we assume the HJS poll is correct, to what extent these views have been influenced by dis/mis-information on social media or word of mouth in religious institutions, and have been reinforce by experiencing Islamaphobia? Religion sometimes seems to bring out the extreme worst in people.  I can remember two friends of mine, both normally rational people but who had different views although they normally coexisted quite well - one a devout Catholic the other a lapsed Catholic -  having on one occasion a huge argument over a pro abortion placard that one had made intended for a demonstration that the other destroyed. 

Michael Ixer ● 8d

Very good post just now by Mr Rose on 'The cost of policing....' thread regarding the last London pro-Palestine march.

John Hawkes ● 8d

Mr Carter'Churlish' .....rude in a mean-spirited and surly way.I wonder who called you that.It was not me.I believe any discussions on this Forum should be about issues in the public domain and not ad hominem attacks on others.Thus rather than being disparaging about your character I hope I just comment on what I perceive to be the position you take on the actions of Israel following the pogrom against it last October.I tend to assume you will not take much notice because it is from the Mail, of the reports of antisemitic behaviour around the weekly anti-Israel marches by Palestinians and their UK fellow travellers in London; especially as you have written that you have attended them and if I recall reported on them favourably.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13357877/Met-Police-cowed-anti-semitic-mob-cover-Holocaust.htmlBut do you never have any doubts that the actions of the Palestinians in October 2023 when they attacked Israel were really horribly barbaric, however much they might say they are justified because of what they in turn have suffered from land appropriation by Israelis ?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68891217 Is there something inherent in Islam that tends to make it misogynistic; the above activities being extreme instances of such ?Or, as the Henry Jackson survey found, many UK Muslims disbelieve such attacks actually took place as well as displaying some very disturbing attitudes to Jews; support for Hamas and also expressing a desire that Islamic beliefs should radically alter the current norms and mores of UK society in which they have chosen to come to the country and join. '8th April 2024Henry Jackson SocietyA new poll commissioned by HJS has found that only one in four British Muslims believe Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on October 7. The poll also found a further series of shocking results, including:• Almost half of British Muslims say Jews have too much power over UK government policy, with similar numbers thinking the same for US foreign policy.• British Muslims are more likely to have a positive than a negative view of Hamas, a proscribed terrorist organisation in the UK.• Nearly half of British Muslims would back the removal of an MP if they took a different stance on Israel/Palestine to them.• 52% want to make it illegal to show a picture of the Muslim Prophet Mohammed.• 32% of British Muslims favour the implementation of Sharia Law, and the same number the declaration of Islam as national religion.• Extreme views were generally more likely to be found in the youngest age cohort of 18-34, among graduates of all ages (as opposed to non-graduates) and British born rather foreign born Muslims, suggesting British integration policy is failing and needs urgent revision.

John Hawkes ● 8d

Ah, yes, Rheingold ...  two and a half hours but of course the music is so absorbing the time flies by :-)

Michael Ixer ● 9d

I've lost the plot on this thread; no Pre à Manger: WTF, I know people are unhappy because they've reduced their number of vegan options but has someone issued a fatwa as there's  no longer a Pret vegan falafel sandwich? Come on, let's get back to some sense of reality...

Michael Ixer ● 9d

Yes, The Ring was based on a combination of Nordic and Germanic myths. And as for the bladder problem, worst is the prelude, Das Rheingold; it's at least two and a half hours with no interval...

Richard Carter ● 9d

Is there any doubt the Ring des Nibelungen was based on Nordic mythology and the associated gods? I'm not sure how Wagner would have associated it with Islamists - it's true at the time the Ottoman Empire spanned a wide range of the Balkans, Middle East and North Africa, including Palestine, but my understanding is that there was a reasonable tolerance of Christianity and Judaism within the Ottoman Empire; but, although I've seen some suggestions of antisemitic parallels with the Niblings, I've not seen anything accusing Wagner of Islamaphobia, but to be honest I've not looked for it.Anyway, it's based on mythology which is how most atheists view religion of all variants. Still, I think we can all agree Wagner wrote jolly good music including operas; just a pity he paid no respect to the pressures on peoples bladders :-)

Michael Ixer ● 9d

PS: It's been suggested my reply was churlish. It wasn't meant to be since at least, as with Robert Wheeler, we have discovered some common ground. Good: I really like Die MeisterSinger too.

Richard Carter ● 9d

You mean as "'a collapse (as of a society or regime) marked by catastrophic violence and disorder; broadly : downfall'."More accurately the downfall of a regime (the gods) through hubris. Or, rather closer to home, the downfall of the present government and its pint-sized loser Sunak - (c) Angela Rayner - as a particularly feeble Wotan.

Richard Carter ● 9d

Mr CarterI agree about the Nordic mythical origins that might have formed some basis for the opera, but at least some musicologists seem to have interpreted its setting in the way I described.Perhaps we read the same Google search results !But you do not challenge my reading of the use of the term  'Gotterdammerung' do you ?

John Hawkes ● 9d

Oh dear, your demotic act is wholly unconvincing."As I understand it ... the opera Gotterdammerung takes place in a futuristic dystopia etc etc"No, it's based on an ancient Nordic myth set, inasmuch as is set at any time, in the distant past, and describes the collapse of the old gods' world."Did it cross your mind that it might be predictive of the fate of the UK and western society in general as Islamism gets ever more encroaching and threatening ?"No, nothing so daft: I'm not into ridiculous fantasies/conspiracy nonsense.

Richard Carter ● 9d

"Oooh Gawd blimey" Mr Carter !There was me off to Craven Cottage to watch FFC repel but not defeat Crystal Palace, a marauding pack from sarf east London, whilst you were off to the Festival Hall to listen to some German musical.In fact I too love Wagner's music, my favourite being the 'Meistersingers' (though you do need a comfy seat).I am not sufficiently knowledgeable of his work to comment as to whether it was antisemitic.And I believe that you can easily separate the art from the artist unless you have a particular axe to grind .I just like the tunes !As I understand it, but correct me if I am wrong, the opera Gotterdammerung takes place in a futuristic dystopia and the meaning of Gotterdammerung is 'a collapse (as of a society or regime) marked by catastrophic violence and disorder; broadly : downfall'.Did it cross your mind that it might be predictive of the fate of the UK and western society in general as Islamism gets ever more encroaching and threatening ?

John Hawkes ● 9d

Questions, questions. As Mike Ixer memorably responded to another irritating poster, "I'm not your f...ing secretary!" Try Google, but do try to steer clear of the wilder reaches of US wingnuttery.And, BTW, I'm not on the march as I'm off to enjoy Gotterdammerung at the Festival Hall. And don't tell me I shouldn't enjoy Wagner because he was an anti-Semite, that debate is well over 100 years old

Richard Carter ● 10d

Mr Carterre My post to you on 24/4/2024 at 13.41'Every Saturday since the pogrom of the Jews by Palestinians in October 2023, many British citizens have had their lives disrupted by marches in support of this attack's perpetrators'.Marches filled in the main by foreign nationals of an alien culture living here, and protesting about issues of supposed persecution in their homeland; one they are so devoted to that they can't seem to leave quickly enough to come and reside here.These issues the most of us care little about.Many people think these marches are less 'pro-Palestine' and more 'anti Israel'; but that's just opinion of course.On St George's day that some claim to be our country's National Day, it seems a few of these British citizens, albeit bears of little brain, caused a minor kerfuffle during a demonstration to commemorate it and their right to do so, and also to protest against the way they feel Islamists are being sympathetically treated by the authorities.Those breaking the law in doing so were dealt with by the police.Some below claim to see this as the biggest fascist uprising seemingly since Mosley's Black Shirts marched in the '30s, ironically also to threaten British Jews.'here's a real example of a hate march, with "Groups of men wielding flags pushed through lines of police attempting to hold them back in an area near Whitehall before the event, resulting in police on horseback being sent in. A group came up against a cordon an hour before the event was due to take place at an allocated location on Richmond Terrace, 'violently forcing their way through” when they were told to turn around, the Metropolitan police said'."It is rare however for the hatred and racist fascism of the Islamist marchers to be drawn to our attention in such graphic terms.Is not equating the continual Islamist protest campaign with a single march by a few political nobodies just an attempt to deliberately blur the issue and gaslight the public ?Oh and perhaps Mr Carter could give us an update on the wellbeing of the horse.

John Hawkes ● 10d

Ms Grant'Many Palestinians in the past have settled in Jordan and Lebanon, among other places. These refugees have rarely been made welcome by their fellow Muslims'.Some historians and Arab politicians have claimed that no independent or Arab state ever existed in the area called Palestine. Arguing against partition before an Anglo-American committee in 1946 Professor Philip Hitti, a distinguished Arab-American historian at Princeton stated "There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not".Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity.When the First Congress of Muslim-Christians met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the post WWI Paris Peace Conference they adopted the following resolution:'We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds'.In 1937 the Peel Commission set up to reconcile by partition  the conflicting claims of Jews and Arabs in the territory was told by local Arab leader Auni Bey Abdul Hadi "There is no such country as Palestine! 'Palestine' is a term Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria".This was echoed by the representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the UN in May 1947 who said to the General Assembly that Palestine was part of the Province of Syria and the Arabs of Palestine did not comprise a separate political entity.A few years later Ahmed Shuqeiri, later chairman of the PLO told the Security Council of the UN "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria".Palestinian Arab nationalism is said to be largely a post-WWI phenomenon and not significant until after the 1967 Six-Day War Jews however have lived in the region of Israel since Hebrews entered the area in around 1300 BCE.

John Hawkes ● 10d

Mr CarterYou probably won't read this till you get back from your observing the usual Saturday morning 'peace' march by Palestinians and their fellow travellers.But could you tell me how the aims and ideology of Hamas differs from that of  'the Palestinians' ?Below is the result of a survey by the Henry Jackson Society (yes, yes, we know "fascist right wing think tank"). "Only one in four British Muslims believe Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on October 7th"8th April 2024Henry Jackson Society'A new poll commissioned by HJS has found that only one in four British Muslims believe Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on October 7. The poll also found a further series of shocking results, including:• Almost half of British Muslims say Jews have too much power over UK government policy, with similar numbers thinking the same for US foreign policy.• British Muslims are more likely to have a positive than a negative view of Hamas, a proscribed terrorist organisation in the UK. • Nearly half of British Muslims would back the removal of an MP if they took a different stance on Israel/Palestine to them.• 52% want to make it illegal to show a picture of the Muslim Prophet Mohammed.• 32% of British Muslims favour the implementation of Sharia Law, and the same number the declaration of Islam as national religion. • Extreme views were generally more likely to be found in the youngest age cohort of 18-34, among graduates of all ages (as opposed to non-graduates) and British born rather foreign born Muslims, suggesting British integration policy is failing and needs urgent revision.

John Hawkes ● 10d

What ambiguity- please explain.

Robert Wheeler ● 11d

Perhaps I misinterpreted your somewhat ambiguous statement at 15:56...

Richard Carter ● 11d

While not denying that there are Israeli extremists (mainly West Bank settlers) whose actions I despair, I don't believe many Gazans have left and claimed asylum elsewhere Mr Brigo. Egypt won't take them in because of fears that they will bring  more terrorism with them. Many Palestinians in the past have settled in Jordan and Lebanon, among other places. These refugees have rarely been made welcome by their fellow Muslims.

Lucille Grant ● 11d

Why on earth would you think that l would approve of this march..  Yet more insulting personal attacks from you Richard on this forum as others have pointed out this is a public forum.

Robert Wheeler ● 11d

" A mob is a group of people calling for violence and destruction of another person or country." Agreed, but this doesn't describe marches I've been on."Surprising you had no problem describing what a mob was in the St.George’s Day March," Not surprising at all, since the crowd on that march attacked the police, as reported in, for example, the Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/st-georges-day-london-far-right-police-whitehall-football-fans-b1153337.html). You sound as if you approved of this march.

Richard Carter ● 11d

"Meanwhile there are extremist Israeli groups taking bulldozers with them and destroying Palestinian homes and infrastructure in order to displace those Palestinians who have not already left the country and claimed asylum elsewhere."Everyone seems to have glossed over this? I wonder why....? Doesn't fit your narrative?

Michael Brigo ● 11d

Hear, hear Robert.

Lucille Grant ● 11d

Richard who exactly organises these marches and what do they stand for?  A mob is a group of people calling for violence and destruction of another person or country.  Is this what education in this country is about where we shout down someone else because of their religion.  Like Stephen l believe many are naive in the background and funding of these marches which is why l constantly say if you sympathise with the people actually in Gaza donate to a recognised charity.Surprising you had no problem describing what a mob was in the St.George’s Day March.

Robert Wheeler ● 11d

Presumably in this context you're referring to the ideology of Hamas. As no one on this site has said they support Hamas, your post is irrelevant - unless you're indulging in a Hawkes-like smear and suggesting that's not true.And what "mob" are you referring to?

Richard Carter ● 11d

A sympathiser to me is someone who agrees with the ideology.  Israel has never declared the destruction of a Palestine state.  If you want to help donate to recognised charities, do not associate yourselves with a mob.

Robert Wheeler ● 11d

"so called sympathisers."I wonder if you could explain what you mean by this?

Richard Carter ● 11d

I said this at the start and l’ll say it again - JUST RELEASE THE HOSTAGES.  Is that loud enough for you.Personal l find myself becoming more and more angry against these so called sympathisers.  If you can stop all this why don’t you.

Robert Wheeler ● 11d

There you go again.  Meanwhile there are extremist Israeli groups taking bulldozers with them and destroying Palestinian homes and infrastructure in order to displace those Palestinians who have not already left the country and claimed asylum elsewhere...  This is something that you seem to be ignoring. 

Philippa Bond ● 11d

Sadly I think that's probably true of both side's leaders. However, possibly not true of many (most?) in the populations. Perhaps why there are demonstrations in Israel against its government, while the average Palestinian is probably too hungry and busy rushing from place to place to avoid being bombed, and also in fear of Hamas, to consider demonstrating for peace?

Michael Ixer ● 11d

Ms Grant'Yahya Sinwar, the group’s leader in Gaza, who is believed to be in the network of tunnels'.This is presumably also the place where the kidnapped Israeli women and children are held after their rape and sexual assault in October.One dreads to think.....

John Hawkes ● 11d

Mr Rose'To be honest, Lucille, I don’t think either side wants peace......'Another excellent and balanced analysis of the situation.

John Hawkes ● 11d

Mr Rose'The groups organising the marches include the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC), The Friends of Al Aqsa (FAA), the Muslim Association of Britain (MAB) and the Palestinian Forum for Britain (PFB).All these groups have links with Hamas or have expressed sympathy with its views'.And also I understand given strong support by the 'Stop the War Campaign', Jeremy Corbyn's (who once called Hamas and Hezbollah 'friends') and many in the Labour Party's favourite peace campaigners Yet we are told and some claim to believe, that these marches are a spontaneous outburst of support by the British public for poor beleaguered Palestinians cruelly attacked by Israel for no reason whatsoever !Though heaven forbid, of course the marchers DO NOT support Hamas, Palestinians that carried out the pogrom on 7th October 2023 !And the Opinion Survey results that show to the contraryhttps://henryjacksonsociety.org/2024/04/08/only-one-in-four-british-muslims-believe-hamas-committed-murder-and-rape-in-israel-on-october-7th/were carried out by the Henry Jackson Society and are what one would expect from a 'right wing' political group for God's sake !

John Hawkes ● 11d

To be honest, Lucille, I don’t think either side wants peace. They want victory. I am pretty sure that Israel would agree to a temporary ceasefire in order to obtain the release of the hostages. And the Israelis would also  be prepared to release many of the Palestinians held in Israeli jails (except perhaps for murderers whose release would upset the bereaved families of the victims). But they won’t  agree to Hamas’ demand for a withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza since this would leave Hamas in control of the territory, ready to regroup and strike again in the future (as they have threatened to do), which would be completely unacceptable to the Israeli public. Hamas for its part has no intention of putting an end to the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza by giving up the hostages (even if they knew where to find them all, which is not at all clear). This, in my opinion, is for two reasons. In the first place the suffering of ordinary Palestinians in Gaza is part of Hamas’ strategy. They hope that public opinion in the West, particularly America, will be sufficiently horrified to put pressure on Israel to agree to a ceasefire. Secondly, having been all but defeated militarily, Hamas see the hostages as their best hope of obtaining something which they can claim as a victory, not to mention their own safe passage out of the tunnels.

Steven Rose ● 11d

Mr Carter'Perhaps because of the banners and signs they hold Richard? The one time I inadvertently got caught up in one of these marches I saw signs stating 'Death to the Jews'. There is no doubt that some of these people are Jews haters.Touche !Carry on defending the indefensible.

John Hawkes ● 11d

To follow on from my previous post: Hamas doesn't want peace.The leaders of 17 countries, including Britain, have signed a joint letter calling on Hamas to release hostages being held in Gaza, as talks aimed at ending the crisis falter.A senior US administration official said that a proposed deal to release vulnerable hostages gave Hamas almost all of the things it was demanding to end the war.He added, however, that the deal was being rejected directly by Yahya Sinwar, the group’s leader in Gaza, who is believed to be in the network of tunnels.

Lucille Grant ● 11d

https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/12/israel-discriminatory-land-policies-hem-palestiniansLots of different towns and villages there.  It was not an empty land!

Philippa Bond ● 12d

Philippa, I mentioned four of the groups organising the demonstrations.  The main one, the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, is not a Muslim organisation. The other three are. All of them deny Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish homeland. I could have mentioned Stop the War, who are also involved. Contrary to their  name, they are not actually against war, only wars waged by the West, which as far as they are concerned includes Israel. So , for example,  they oppose Ukrainian resistance to Russia. So I would describe Stop the War as a questionable  organisation as well along with the others. I am not sure about CND’s position.I am aware that the demonstrators include  well-meaning people who are neither Jewish nor Muslim as well as some Jewish people. But  the marches are also supported by large numbers of Muslims, around half of whom according to the recent poll  deny Israel’s right to exist.

Steven Rose ● 12d

You've only mentioned groups that have a connection with Muslims when I know for a fact that there have been Jews there and people marching with CND.  But then of course you are likely to find that most organisations have some Muslim connections as well as their connections to other religions.

Philippa Bond ● 12d

So glad your Jewish colleague wasn't 'spooked' RichardAs I've stated before, these large groups are intimidating to plenty of us, including me.Call for a ceasefire by all means but far too many well intentioned people are forgetting about the hostages still held by Hamas in Gaza.A message from the US and 17 other countries including Britain today finally put the hostages first and foremost in talking about a ceasefire (Reuters report).So Richard, and anyone else thinking of partaking in these pro Palestinian marches, perhaps carry a banner calling for the release of the hostages (who are not all Israelis btw) forthwith. That would be even handed.

Lucille Grant ● 12d

PS: I should also have added that on one batch I met a former colleague and her husband, both Jewish and who weren't spooked by anything they saw; there were also many groups of Jewish protesters.

Richard Carter ● 12d

The groups organising the marches include the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC), The Friends of Al Aqsa (FAA), the Muslim Association of Britain (MAB) and the Palestinian Forum for Britain (PFB).All these groups have links with Hamas or have expressed sympathy with its views. For example the FAA is led by Ismael Patel who has visited the Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh in Gaza and has denied that Hamas is a terrorist organisation.Two former leaders of the PSC also met Haniyeh in Gaza. Another prominent figure in the PSC, John Nicholson, told a PSC rally in Oldham, ‘From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free’.The PFB is led by Zaher Birawi who met Haniyeh in Gaza in 2012 and on a later visit has been photographed with Haniyeh, former Hamas military chief Mahmoud Zahar and George Galloway.The MAB is an Islamist organisation associated with the Muslim brotherhood, banned in Egypt and Saudi Arabia among other countries.I think that anyone associated with these organisations has questionable views. I also think that the poll findings mentioned in my earlier post are very worrying,

Steven Rose ● 12d

Well, I've been on a couple and have never seen anything like the horrible sign you saw. It was dreadful, but fortunately it's a tiny minority of such signs, at least as far as the evidence from my participations shows.

Richard Carter ● 12d

Absolutely, Caroline. The Hamas murders and hostage taking is appalling and so is the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza. I dont agree that we have to take sides. Surely anyone with an ounce of humanity can empathise with both the hostages, their families, and their bereaved and with the Palestinians in Gaza who are suffering death and destruction on a daily basis. I agree that the Israelis are not committing genocide because the intention is not there but if your people are being killed and maimed it feels like that.

Jane Carter ● 12d

Perhaps because of the banners and signs they hold Richard? The one time I inadvertently got caught up in one of these marches I saw signs stating 'Death to the Jews'. There is no doubt that some of these people are Jews haters.

Lucille Grant ● 12d

"the motives of many of the  others are questionable"I wonder how you know this?

Richard Carter ● 12d

Some of the demonstrators undoubtedly are as you describe, but the motives of many of the  others are questionable.

Steven Rose ● 12d

Could they also be ordinary British people marching to demonstate sympathy for the plight of civilians in Gaza.

Caroline Whitehead ● 12d

I am not sure how many of the protesters are actually Palestinian. I suspect that the majority are simply British Muslims. According to a recent poll, 80% of British Muslims believe that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, 39% believe that Hamas did not commit murder or rape on October 7 and 49% believe that Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish homeland.

Steven Rose ● 12d

Mr Ixer'these problems are multi dimensional'.Good points.I guess it proves how manipulative extremists like Hamas and the IRA can corrupt the 'better angels of our nature'.

John Hawkes ● 12d

Mr Hawkes. I think that's where a binary good versus evil solution breaks down.I've no idea why or how many Palestinians live in the UK but I can see a scenario where if they're not in favour of Hamas they've fled to the UK and other European countries for asylum because of Hamas action against Palestinians who disagree with them. But that doesn't mean they support their families and friends back home being made homeless, killed, maimed or starved? As an analogy, I know Irish people living in the UK (perhaps you'd describe them as economic migrants?) who never supported the IRA and were opposed to their terrorist activities but would attend Troops Out marches because of the army actions such as Bloody Sunday. I'm just trying to rationalise the position not supporting any side or apportioning blame; these problems are multi dimensional. 

Michael Ixer ● 12d

Ms Bond"Marches filled in the main by foreign nationals of an alien culture living here, and protesting about issues of supposed persecution in their homeland; one they are so devoted to that they can't seem to leave quickly enough to come and reside here."By this I mean that I do not understand why so many Palestinians are taking 'the fight for their homeland' as I am sure many of them would describe it, onto the streets of London rather than to Palestine itself.Or better still, why not return to Palestine (and I am still not certain where that is constituted) and attempt to turn it from a base for antisemitic Islamic terrorists into an economically and socially thriving democracy based on freedom of speech and rule of law, such is Israel which some of them have publicly stated they wish to destroy.Perhaps a protest lifestyle in the UK is less dangerous, easier and more attractive. 

John Hawkes ● 12d

A link here but not sure what people are looking for.https://images.app.goo.gl/DJgVtVypmeddnShF9

Michael Ixer ● 12d

Ms Bond'Palestinians in their own homeland'What areas exactly do you consider to be 'their homeland' ?Could you provide a link to a map ?Thanks

John Hawkes ● 12d

"Marches filled in the main by foreign nationals of an alien culture living here, and protesting about issues of supposed persecution in their homeland; one they are so devoted to that they can't seem to leave quickly enough to come and reside here."What on earth are you talking about?  Yet again you seem to be denying the Nakba and the continuing poor treatment of Palestinians in their own homeland which continues today.  Who exactly is it that you consider 'aliens'?  We are all here also free to choose whatever religion we want to practise - or indeed none.

Philippa Bond ● 13d

So was my father-in-law but he didn't talk about it until he was in his 90s.

Philippa Bond ● 13d

Educating young people about the Holocaust is very important. But even more important is ensuring that there isn't a second Holocaust. Unfortunately the campaign to remove the threat of terrorists who wish to destroy the State of Israel and kill its Jewish population has been denigrated from the outset. As an Israeli politician said, Israel is only popular when the Jews are victims.

Steven Rose ● 13d

Ms Carter'It’s important that we learn from history and future generations are educated on the Holocaust. It is actually on the national curriculum; all my grandchildren have studied it at school. It’s really important that it is taught well so that all children, not only those with a family history to the atrocities, engage with it'.I agree wholeheartedly for this is not just history - “History is just one fucking thing after another.”Alan Bennett, The History Boys- but an exploration of we humans ourselves.What does it teach us about the human psyche and what we are capable of ?“[talking about the Holocaust]'But this is History. Distance yourselves. Our perspective on the past alters. Looking back, immediately in front of us is dead ground. We don't see it, and because we don't see it this means that there is no period so remote as the recent past. And one of the historian's jobs is to anticipate what our perspective of that period will be... even on the Holocaust.”― Alan Bennett, The History Boys I believe that the whole history of Jewish persecution should be covered right up to the Holocaust, probably the most hideous manifestation of evil that individuals and collectives have perpetrated in modern times.But teaching the history of the Jews should continue through to the setting up of the state of Israel and thence to the present day with their existential fight for survival against Islamist forces that wish to annihilate them in a political environment that has so quickly turned against them.Which other race of people has been so long persecuted and why has this been so ?Probably no other race, for the genocides of Russians by Stalin, the Armenians by the Turks and the Chinese by Mao, though appalling, were one off incidents of history and brought about and perpetrated by devious, psychopathic individuals.And now we are beginning to see a rewriting of Jewish history in the current wave of Islamist attacks and propaganda, its teaching is even more urgent. 

John Hawkes ● 13d

Thanks, Jane. I didn't know that, it's good the hear it's taught in schools. I suppose my generation were taught by our parents who'd lived through, fought or had relatives affected by the war and knew about the Nazi atrocities.

Michael Ixer ● 13d

Thanks Jane. I read somewhere recently that the history curriculum was changing but can't recall where I read that.

Lucille Grant ● 13d

My son (secondary age) was on a school trip to Berlin 6 weeks ago where they got a 'tour' of a camp. They have been studying it this semester - all very traumatic but very necessary.

Michael Brigo ● 13d

I agree with both of you. It’s important that we learn from history and future generations are educated on the Holocaust. It is actually on the national curriculum; all my grandchildren have studied it at school. It’s really important that it is taught well so that all children, not only those with a family history to the atrocities, engage with it.

Jane Carter ● 13d

Every Saturday since the pogrom of the Jews by Palestinians in October 2023, many British citizens have had their lives disrupted by marches in support of this attack's perpetrators'.Marches filled in the main by foreign nationals of an alien culture living here, and protesting about issues of supposed persecution in their homeland; one they are so devoted to that they can't seem to leave quickly enough to come and reside here.These issues the most of us care little about.Many people think these marches are less 'pro-Palestine' and more 'anti Israel'; but that's just opinion of course. On St George's day that some claim to be our country's National Day, it seems a few of these British citizens, albeit bears of little brain, caused a minor kerfuffle during a demonstration to commemorate it and their right to do so, and also to protest against the way they feel Islamists are being sympathetically treated by the authorities.Those breaking the law in doing so were dealt with by the police.Some claim to see this as the biggest fascist uprising seemingly since Mosley's Black Shirts marched in the '30s, ironically also to threaten British Jews. 'here's a real example of a hate march, with "Groups of men wielding flags pushed through lines of police attempting to hold them back in an area near Whitehall before the event, resulting in police on horseback being sent in. A group came up against a cordon an hour before the event was due to take place at an allocated location on Richmond Terrace, 'violently forcing their way through” when they were told to turn around, the Metropolitan police said'."It is rare however for the hatred and racist fascism of the Islamist marchers to be drawn to our attention in such graphic terms.Is not equating the continual Islamist protest campaign with a single march by a few political nobodies just an attempt to deliberately blur the issue and gaslight the public ?Oh and perhaps Mr Carter could give us an update on the wellbeing of the horse.

John Hawkes ● 13d

15 April to be exact Philippa. My Jewish uncle was among the liberators. Holocaust Memorial Day is when we remember the horrors of all the concentration camps. Meanwhile it is up to secondary school curriculum to educate future generations on the Holocaust buti feat that may no longer be the case.

Lucille Grant ● 13d

Wasn't yesterday or the day before the anniversary of the British army entering Bergen-Belsen?  Wasn't and isn't the idea that this horror should "never be forgotten and never repeated' and wasn't that accepted and expected as being by everyone everywhere???Man's inhumanity to man experienced then had a profound effect on those young men who took part in that liberation and had to live with that experience for the rest of their lives.  We should ALL be learning from history.

Philippa Bond ● 14d

Another little bit ofvwhataboutery from Mr Carter.On the issue itself I give nk support to the minirity of far right idiots that were out to cause trouble..But isnt it a bit strange that in a country where all and sundry match up.and down every week bringing major disruption to the capital, that those people in England wishing to celebrate the day of our patron saint are limited to a 2 hour window in a small part of the city.Why can they not have an all day march like those held every Saturday.?

Andy Pike ● 14d

Mr Rose'It is worth noting that in 2019 Keir Starmer described Jeremy Corbyn as 'a colleague and a friend' and campaigned for him to become the next Prime Minister'.I think we all know on which side Labour stands in the Middle East conflict.And if not its leader, then I have no doubt with regard to its membership.

John Hawkes ● 14d

It is worth noting that in 2019 Keir Starmer described Jeremy Corbyn as 'a colleague and a friend' and campaigned for him to become the next Prime Minister.

Steven Rose ● 14d

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/23/leaders-war-gaza-jeremy-corbynAn unbiased plea from the self-declared 'man of peace' and once leader of the Labour Party until he lost the whip for antisemitism; and the once self-proclaimed ally of the IRA and even Hamas and Hezbollah until pressure forced him to retract.Note that nowhere in the article does he condemn the attack on Israel by Hamas in October and the subsequent massacre which led to the retaliatory attacks on the Palestinians he so abhors.Yet he decries western politicians 'inability to treat Israeli and Palestinian lives with equal worth'. Just explicit or implicit condemnation of Israel, and yet again the misuse of the word genocide.1) Last week, Israel conducted missile strikes against Iran in a fast-widening conflict across the Middle East.NB No condemnation of these attacks.2) As the Israeli government weighed up its options in response to Iran’s attack on 14 April, bombs continued to fall on Palestinians in Gaza. 3) If the unfolding genocide of the Palestinian people does not already constitute a worst-case scenario, what does?4) Back in October, many of us warned that we were witnessing the beginning of the total annihilation of Gaza and its people.5) They (western politicians) will be immortalised for their inability to treat Israeli and Palestinian lives with equal worth. They will be remembered for their failure to prevent genocide.6) Instead, it paved a path to escalation by launching military strikes against Yemen, one of the poorest countries in the world, and doubling down on the policy of arms exports to Israel.7) We will be there once again in London on Saturday, for another National March for Palestine. We will be demonstrating for a ceasefire and for the only path to a just and lasting peace: the end to the occupation of Palestine.NB No mention of another obstruction to 'a just and lasting peace'; namely the refusal by many Palestinians to accept the right of Israel to exist and their desire to annihilate its people.  "For months, millions of us have demonstrated for a ceasefire in Gaza to stop the loss of life, end the perpetual cycle of violence and prevent a wider escalation. We have been ignored, maligned and demonised".Perhaps because people can see through his faux, self-serving and biased analysis of the situation, how it came about and where the blame should fall.

John Hawkes ● 14d

Rather close to home, here's a real example of a hate march, with "Groups of men wielding flags pushed through lines of police attempting to hold them back in an area near Whitehall before the event, resulting in police on horseback being sent in. A group came up against a cordon an hour before the event was due to take place at an allocated location on Richmond Terrace, 'violently forcing their way through” when they were told to turn around, the Metropolitan police said'."https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/apr/23/police-clash-with-st-georges-day-protesters-at-rally-in-central-london

Richard Carter ● 14d

Well, the theory until recently was that as the universe's expansion accelerated in 10¹⁰⁰ years' time all energy would be dissipated and matter effectively cease to exist with the universes s temperature dropping to zero Kelvin - absolute zero (my simplistic paraphrasing) - the big freeze; or perhaps the cosmological equivalent of hell freezing over! However, because of the "tension" over the value of the Hubble Constant (the rate the expansion of the universe accelerates) some are now wondering if it might all end with a big crunch ...Anyway, I find it amazing that NASA's scientists and engineers can fix a computer made in the 1970s from distance of 25 billion miles away but Fujitsu can't get an accounting system in an office down the road to add up and then blame the innocent users :-( A decade or so ago I was at a talk given by a British scientist who worked on the Voyager programme (sorry can't remember his name); he was very scathing about the UK's government projects that ran over budget or failed as the Voyager programme had a tight budget and they had a drop dead date; I believe there was something like a two week period to launch with all the planets in the correct alignment otherwise they had two expensive paper weights!Sorry to go off topic, but cosmology and space travel while out of this world (sorry!) seems more sane than some other things happening at the moment :-(

Michael Ixer ● 14d

From the Guardian 23/4/24Hezbollah reportedly launches deepest attack into Israel since Gaza warReuters reports that Hezbollah has said in a statement it had launched a drone attack on Israeli military bases north of the city of Acre, which would mark its deepest attack inside Israel since 7 October.Hezbollah - a Lebanese Shia Muslim militant group – said it acted in retaliation for an earlier Israeli attack killing one of its fighters.The group published what appeared to be a satellite photo, with the location of the strike symbolised by a flash with a red circle around it that sat halfway between Acre and Nahariyya to the north.Israel and anti-Israeli forces including Hezbollah have frequently exchanged fire over the UN-drawn blue line that divides Israel and Lebanon since 7 October.In recent weeks Israeli soldiers have been wounded on the Lebanese side of the line, and in the last couple of days an Israeli drone operating over Lebanese airspace was shot down.

John Hawkes ● 14d

Mr Ixer'Still the good news is Voyager-1 is communicating with us from beyond the Solar System'Yes is it not mind blowing that it will carry on into space for eternity....or later !

John Hawkes ● 14d

Mr CarterWho have I ever bullied ?And it is up to Mr Brigo not you to explain what he meant by his comment.And isn't your use of 'Aaaah!' not unlike other school playground comments you have made as I pointed out earlier. ?

John Hawkes ● 14d

Oh dear, a typical bully: one who is ready to hand it out but when it comes to taking it, finds the response "somewhat threatening." Aaaah!

Richard Carter ● 14d

Mr Hawkes.  I know this isn't my argument but I'm slightly confused by your logic? I know or have met Russians and Iranians who do not agree with their totalitarian governments, similarly I believe many Jews in Israel do not agree with the current government. For the record, although the UK is a democracy, I profoundly disagree with this current government on matters such as the EU and Rwanda; in fact, I think the quirk of the FPTP system that the UK shares with an authoritarian state Belarus, means our current government didn't wi tge popular vote so represents fewer than 50% of the population?You also pointed out in earlier posts that Israel was an open democracy with freedom of religion including Muslims and Christians as well as Jews; as an atheist I'm uncomfortable with states that aren't secular (whether they claim to be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc, particularly when Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox Christians both claim a devine right to kill each other!). It's all too confusing for my simple mind.Still the good news is Voyager-1 is communicating with us from beyond the Solar System ... and I can understand that peaceful endeavour and human success more than the desire of those in Eastern Europe and the Middle East who supposedly worship the same god described in the same historical books to blast hell out of each other - not that I believe in hell! 

Michael Ixer ● 14d

Mr RoseAs you know, I fully endorse the comments you make as they are indisputable.The co-option of the word genocide is a particularly insidious attempt to gaslight the public.Total population of Gaza is 1.9 million.Some intriguing figures from Aljazeera -GAZAKilled: at least 34,151 people, including more than:14,500 children and 8,400 women.This means 11,251 men were killed.So either Israel, in a failing attempt at genocide, is deliberately targeting women and children; or Hamas or whatever passes for Gazan government is not very good at taking steps to protect the most vulnerable; or they are putting more effort into protecting themselves.

John Hawkes ● 14d

Mr BrigoI do not think you are a racist.But I will no longer enter into any argument with you as I find your comment - 'I would advise you to remember you are writing on a public forum when you reply though' - somewhat threatening ?Am I wrong to interpret it in such a manner ?

John Hawkes ● 14d

Mr Brigo'It's an old trick to divert attention from accusations of racial prejudice, to blame any government, in this case the Israeli, rather than the people, in this case the Jews, that elected it'.Is it not true that the state of Israel was created as a homeland for Jews and is thus a Jewish state ?And have not its Jewish citizens democratically elected the Government ?Thus implicitly, by criticising the Israeli government are you not criticising the Jewish people ?Or are you only criticising those that voted for the Government ?By a similar argument I would suggest that criticising Putin is implicitly and in this case deservedly, criticising the Russian people.

John Hawkes ● 14d

Mr Brigo'So you're calling me a rascist?'No I am not.

John Hawkes ● 14d

This is all getting rather silly. It is not possible to have a sensible discussion in an atmosphere of perceived insults and implied threats.I agree with Richard that criticism of Israel is not inherently antisemitic. Many Jewish people and indeed many Israelis are critical of the government of Israel and Netanyahu in particular.But that does not mean that critics of Israel are necessarily free of any taint of semitism, which can take many forms. For example, a recent poll suggests that less than a quarter of British Muslims believe that  Hamas committed murder and rape on October 7 last year. In my opinion that is  equivalent to Holocaust denial, one of the most egregious forms of antisemitism. Another more subtle form of antisemitism is the tendency to judge Israel by standards which are not applied to other democratic countries. As I tried to point out in an earlier post, Israel’s present campaign to eradicate the threat from Hamas is no different from the Allies’ effort to defeat the Nazis or the Coalition’s action in Syria to destroy ISIS. People in this country generally condone the inevitable civilian casualties caused in the struggle against the Nazis and ISIS, but Israel’s attempt to remove the threat of Hamas is described as genocide even though the IDF have tried as far as possible to avoid killing civilians.

Steven Rose ● 14d

Oddly John seems to have gone very quiet for once.Come on John, am I racist as you implied or not? A simple yes/no will do :)I would advise you to remember you are writing on a public forum when you reply though.

Michael Brigo ● 15d

"It's an old trick to divert attention from accusations of racial prejudice, to blame any government, in this case the Israeli, rather than the people, in this case the Jews, that elected it."What an astonishing assertion! If this were accepted, it would never be possible to make any criticism of the Israeli government, however egregiously it behaved, because it was "the Jews that elected it." Which, of course, is an old trick of the more extreme Israel supporters to claim that criticism of the Israeli government by anyone - including, presumably, the Jewish opposition in Israel! - is inherently anti-Semitic.

Richard Carter ● 15d

So you're calling me a rascist?

Michael Brigo ● 15d

Mr Brigo'I don't recall blaming all Jewish people set of people for the actions of the Israeli government?'It's an old trick to divert attention from accusations of racial prejudice, to blame any government, in this case the Israeli, rather than the people, in this case the Jews, that elected it.

John Hawkes ● 15d

You dribbling again waiting for your dinner, or dreaming.

Barbara Stevens ● 15d

I do actually have plenty of Jewish clients and in fact two Jewish friends! - I don't recall blaming all Jewish people set of people for the actions of the Israeli government?Please repost my exact words where I said that.

Michael Brigo ● 15d

Mr Brigo continues to post uneven handed comments.

Lucille Grant ● 15d

Quite right - why, only a couple of weeks ago some fool posted about a bridge being damaged in faraway Maryland. 'Baltimore America' it was headed, and the poster was .... Barbara Stevens. Maybe it was a different Barbara Stevens...

Richard Carter ● 15d

I presume Mr Brigo has no Jewish folk on his client list.surely he wouldnt viuntebancd accepting money from them.

Andy Pike ● 15d

Whataboutism in the international sphere, as I understand it, is a device to deflect criticism from one country by pointing out that other countries have done many worse things. However my reference to the crimes committed by Syria, China and Myanmar was not intended to excuse Israel’s actions in Gaza or the West Bank. My intention was only to highlight the double standards of some of Israel’s critics. The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s working definition of antisemitism, accepted by the UK and the EU, includes ‘applying double standards requiring of  (Israel) a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation’. So yes, given that this country helped to kill up to half a million German civilians in order to eradicate the Nazis and more recently helped to kill thousands of Syrian civilians in an effort to eradicate ISIS, I call into question the good faith of supposedly high-minded individuals who criticise Israel for attempting to eradicate a vicious terrorist organisation like Hamas, especially when they have relatively little to say about Assad’s regime in Syria or China or Myanmar.But getting back to Israel, which should be judged by its actions, the latest news from Gaza reprinted from the BBC in your post is tragic. I don’t wish to justify killing civilians, let alone children. But I would point out that the source of this news item is almost certainly a Palestinian journalist operating in an area where Hamas is still present. Even if this strike occurred (which I have no reason to doubt, though fake news is not unknown),  no context is given. We are not told whether Hamas were operating from the house or whether they were actually firing on Israeli troops. We are not given an explanation from the IDF about the strike. It is typical of the one sided coverage by the BBC which tends to present Gaza as entirely inhabited by innocent civilians who know nothing about Hamas.

Steven Rose ● 15d

Yes and this is Putney Forum, goodbye.

Barbara Stevens ● 15d

Michael Brigo ● 15d

Very good - you are correct in that I said I wasn't going to bother answering your points any more as you are so ill informed. The entire last part of your post is your usual 'whataboutism' and therefore not really worthy of a response :)

Michael Brigo ● 15d

To be fair to Michael Brigo, he did not actually undertake to make no further contributions to Putney Forum on the subject of Israel. He merely said that he was not going to answer any of our objections to his posts because we are too ill informed to be worthy of a response. My interpretation of his position is that he wishes to be free to condemn Israel without having a) to consider any pleas in mitigation (such as the fact that Israel is trying to eradicate a brutal terrorist organisation which carried out an atrocity on its territory six months ago and has threatened to repeat it) or b) to explain the double standards by which Israel is judged (whereby crimes amounting to genocide committed by Syria, China and Myanmar against Muslim civilians are relatively ignored).

Steven Rose ● 15d

Mr BrigoYou seem to have been very quick in arranging your 'comeback tour' !However the very fact that what you have described has been condemned explicitly and implicitly by the US and Israel just goes to show the propriety of both these governments.On the other hand I have seen reports of opinion polls where 70% of Palestinians applaud and support the October massacres by Hamas which speaks volumes.

John Hawkes ● 15d