Forum Topic

Odd phenomena - antipathy to Jews; support for Arabs

Am I am misreading or misunderstanding the reaction to the Israel-Palestine conflict; worldwide, in the UK and even amongst some of the white middle class residents of Putney that read this Forum ?Because strange to my way of thinking, any action perpetrated by the Palestinians and other Arabs seems always to be excusable and is explained away by their 'suffering' and experience in the context of an historical and current Middle Eastern conflict.Some people even delve into history to justify the behaviour of Iran, one of the most backward, aggressive and dangerous states on the planet. This being the case even though so many innocent British adults and children have been killed by bomb and knife attacks by Islamist Arabs in the name of their religion, and Iranian infiltrators are thought to be attacking their country's political exiles on our streets.However anything carried out or said by the Jews and the state of Israel seems immediately damned and vilified.And even the word genocide, correctly used to describe the holocaust and the industrialised extermination of six million Jews is misappropriated to describe the unfortunate deaths of Gazan civilians caught up in the current conflict. This is not to excuse every action carried out by Israel and I will not resuscitate the accusations and justifications concerning them made on another thread.However I am unaware of any threat thought posed to British citizens by Israel and Jews and we and the rest of the world have benefited greatly by their enterprise and creativity.Not a claim easily made for Arab states and its citizens, though we do rely on their oil supplies.The current circumstances, issues and actions by the respective political opponents seem to be described bizarrely in ways Lewis Carroll and George Orwell would have recognised.How did the Palestinians and the Islamic world in general achieve such good PR ?  

John Hawkes ● 18d50 Comments

Thanks for the apology Richard. I indeed have no ulterior motive. I  don't believe Mr Hawkes, Mr Wheeler or Mr Rose has one either. As for Mr Falter, he proved his point - it is unwise for Jewish Londoners to go about their business in central London when there is a pro Palestinian march taking place. I was in London having lunch with non Jewish friends during one of the earliest marches and, while no one  actively threatened me personally, my friends found the  experience intimidating.I plan to be in central London this coming Saturday myself to see what happens. Wonder if the police will let an elderly Jewish lady across the street. Perhaps they'll take pity and escort me across as they could have done for Mr Falter. I could wave my stick around and get myself arrested, I suppose.Meanwhile I stand wholeheartedly behind Israeli citizens of all and no faith. That includes Christians and Muslims who are free to practise their faith in Israel. I have never supported the Israeli Right Wing Government nor their policy of building settlements on the West Bank, but their  system of electing MKs means that fringe elements gain power much to the detriment of peace. Having said that, I don't believe that Hamas wants peace. If they did they would have released all the hostages/bodies by now and given Netanyahu no further reason to continue the war.Frankly I believe that he had no option but to fight back against Hamas after October 7th and originally Israelis supported him as the main objectives were 1) get the hostages back and 2) destroy the bases from where Hamas freely sends rockets over southern Israel, once and for all. This has undoubtedly led to many deaths of innocent civilians as well as Hamas terrorists and their supporters in Gaza.Today is the first day of Passover where Jewish people celebrate escaping from the Egyptians, told in Exodus. It is extremely bitter sweet this year with over 100 men, women and children still in the hands of Hamas. Many Seder tables last night (and tonight)have an empty chair to remember and pray for them.  Final point to anyone still interested in this debate, please do not try to draw me in to the past rights and wrongs on the history of Palestine and Israel during the 20th century. We are where we are and somehow must find a way forward towards peace in the region, hopefully in my lifetime.

Lucille Grant ● 14d

The whole affair of Gideon Falter and the “hate march” is interesting and instructive of the way events can be distorted by different presentations. Sold originally as an innocent Jewish man trying to go home from the synagogue, and, encountering the pro-Palestine march being obstructed by an uppity policeman (“You’re obviously Jewish”), politicians like Sunak jumped in feet first (“The PM has seen the footage and is as appalled as everyone else") But look into it a bit more carefully, and all is not as it seemed.Firstly, it’s clear that there was no danger to Falter in simply crossing the march because there were many Jewish demonstrators on it as I've seen for myself – indeed, one report I read (but can’t now find) described a group with placards declaring “Jews against the Gaza killings” who were right next to this encounter.Secondly, and this is the key point, Falter was quite clearly not just trying to cross on his way home but was spotted at different times on the south side trying to cross north and on the north side trying to cross back. But more than this, he was not trying to cross at all but, it seems, attempting to cause a reaction by walking against the flow of the march, as this exchange shows:Policeman: "I have already seen you deliberately leave the pavement and walk against this march. You chose to do that."Mr Falter: "I was trying to get to the other side of the road."- and again, in more detail:Policeman:  "You decided to walk out into the road and deliberately walk against the flow of people. This is quite clearly a pro-Palestinian demonstration. My concern is that your behaviour changed. You were at first on the footway, you were not causing any issues. You then decided to move into the road, not to cross it but walk against the flow of people."Falter: "What are you talking about? I was walking across the road."Policeman: "I am sorry, which word didn't you understand? You were walking against the flow of people. That's why I asked you to move to the pavement.”Now, there’s no reason at all why he shouldn’t be able to mount a counter-demonstration, and perhaps the policeman was being a bit overzealous in anticipating conflict, but what did Falter say during his counter-marching? We just don’t know as this wasn’t recorded, but any unbiased observer would at least wonder what actually went on before mindlessly jumping to the conclusions they want. The exchanges on the video that we can hear show the policeman being unfailingly polite in the face of misleading claims by Falter, and even the “threat of arrest” is not aggressive as some have suggested:Falter: "I am not being disingenuous, I can walk wherever the hell I want. If I want to walk to that pavement that is what I am going to do and you are going to have to arrest me."Policeman: "I would rather not do that."Altogether, this whole event has, it seems, been hijacked by people with an ulterior motive, and the police handling of a difficult situation, apart from a couple of clumsy phrases which they apologised for, was fair.Apologies for the over-long post, but it’s difficult to describe without going into the detail. The full video and transcript can be seen here:https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104#main

Richard Carter ● 15d

Mr Ixer'Possibly the only hope is if the authoritarian Iranian regime collapses? There's certainly a lot of unrest there and I'm sure a number of middle eastern countries would like to see that happen.  I saw reports that Jordan and Saudi Arabia had participated in the downing of drones and missiles directed by Iran at Israel'. I certainly stand to be corrected but I understand that both Saudi and Iran both adhere to the basic tenets of Islam.However Saudi practices the faith according to a Sunni tradition and Iran to a Shia one.I think these differences are more at the historical and procedural level.Historical in that the successor to Muhammad was disputed and procedural such as rituals of prayer and marriage.In this sense, many people compare the two groups with Catholics and Protestants. Fundamentally, they share some common beliefs but practice in different manners. But today there are geo-political differences between them and concerns over respective spheres of influence.Iran seems obviously theocratic and to be taking a more aggressive attitude towards Israel and 'the West' even though this has affected its economy and caused tensions amongst its populace that could well bring the regime down.Hopefully.Saudi is more subtle.It is strongly influenced by its clerics if not ruled by them, but seems far more willing to live peacefully alongside 'the West' and certainly to trade with them to maintain its citizens high standard of living.And seems to be loosening its previous social restrictions.I understand now women can drive without a male relative chaperone in the back seat !It sees in my view the risk the rulers of Iran pose to its stable and in some ways 'westernised' way of life.It sees no risk to itself coming from Israel, hence the starting of various accords with it, and as you say helped down Iran's missiles aimed at Israel.Let's hope pragmatic Saudi prevails over 'loony' Iran.

John Hawkes ● 15d

Ms BondYou are certainly a whizz when it comes to finding articles on the web that criticise Israel !However you have obviously been too busy doing this to find time to answer the questions I posed you on the thread 'Why didn't the Jews fight back' on 19/4/24 at 11.25.So perhaps you might do so now.My post in response to yours was -'Ms BondIf you find my repeated descriptions of the October invasion a little tedious I am sorry.I keep recalling it because many seem now to have forgotten it and also that it was perpetrated by Palestinians who now seem to have captured the UK sympathy vote if the Saturday marches are any indication.From where have some of the Gazan Palestinians been displaced ?Unfortunate though it may be, many current Gazans are suffering the collateral effects of retaliation by the Israelis that Hamas attacked last October.The brave Hamas Arab boys having sneaked off to hide among civilians.What atrocities has Israel perpetrated that are similar in barbaric nature to those perpetrated by Hamas in October ?Who actually speaks for the Palestinians ?How did they obtain that right ?Does this body and hence the Palestinians accept the right of the state of Israel to exist ?We know Hamas does not.Do you ?Does the Nakba as you call it and the measures taken in the past by the Jews to set up the state of Israel invalidate its right to exist today ?Do you think Palestine should encompass more territory than it does at the moment, namely Gaza and the West Bank ?To me, specific questions and answers relating to the situation on the ground today are more pertinent than metaphorically digging up the past'.

John Hawkes ● 16d

Hi MichaelI agree with you that CRT is not relevant to the conflict in the Middle East, principally for two reasons. The first is that, though the founders of the State of Israel were mainly East European Jews, the majority of the Jewish population today are descendants of the Arabic speaking Jews expelled from Muslim countries in North Africa and the Middle East. Secondly it is inaccurate to describe the foundation of the State of Israel as an act of colonialism. Jews have lived in Palestine for over two millennia and Israel was created following a vote at the  UN in 1947 to partition Palestine between the Jews and the Arabs. Unfortunately, as all students of Philosophy 101 know, there is often a confusion between ‘is’ and ‘ought’. CRT ought not to be applied to the Middle East but it sometimes is, with the result that Israelis are seen as colonial oppressors, not just as regards the settlements on the West Bank, but as regards Israel itself which is viewed as under ‘occupation’.As to the CRT itself, like you perhaps, I have concerns about compensation for the descendants of the victims of the slave trade. These concerns are centred around the question of who should pay compensation and who should receive it. As regards the former, should all Britons pay compensation, even if their ancestors came from other countries? Should the millions of British Asians pay compensation? To take the most absurd example, should British people of Caribbean origin, whose ancestors were actually the victims of the slave trade, pay? In respect of the recipients, should Britain pay compensation, not just to countries  in the West Indies, but to the United States? But perhaps this complex  question should be the subject of a separate thread.

Steven Rose ● 16d

Mr Hawkes (cc Mr Rose)I'm not sure why you introduced CRT as I don't see it is or should be particularly relevant to this argument - it's mainly about the socioeconomic disadvantages of black Americans because of their past experiences slavery, segregation and discrimination - and I'm also not sure many of us really understand it. I suppose people might try to draw some parallels with it when discussing the Middle East because of the British and French occupation and rule post World War One to protect oil supplies. Anyway, I'd say CRT is more about recognising the US situation although, again, some may see some parallels in Western Europe. I thought the note about CRT below, written on Facebook by a US acquaintance, a retired university professor who studied Religion and Society at Harvard University, might help clarify that subject. (He agreed I could reposted this and wanted to be acknowledged.)Perhaps you are misunderstanding some of us, although I suppose I can only speak for myself. Personally I and possibly others just want to understand what motivates some on both sides to take certain actions, which may mean looking back into history. However, that doesn't mean we agree with or endorse their conclusions, or aims and actions - especially if they're extremists. I've always been taught that to solve a problem one needs to understand the underlying causes of it first and then try to look for a solution, but perhaps my training has been too maths and science based and too little messy politics and sociology - although perhaps one needs to look at chaos theory? To be honest are can't see any actions b either side that are likely to end in lasting peace.
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Critical Race Theory - Robert B PetitCRT concentrates not on the racially prejudiced attitudes held by individuals but on the policies, practices, norms, customs, and laws of a society, and the social, cultural, economic, political institutional structures that embody and perpetuate them. It claims that we cannot begin to understand the roots and consequences of inequality in our society until we acknowledge the central role played in our history and present by race, beginning with the extensive and lasting injuries of slavery.For example, the net wealth of a typical White family in the U.S. is about 10 times the net wealth of the typical Black family. This disparity not only resulted from the economic oppression of Blacks during slavery, Reconstruction (post Civil War era), and Jim Crow (the officially enforced segregation of Blacks and Whites), that excluded Blacks from opportunities to earn and save wealth, but also later policies. Great Depression policies (1930's) designed to alleviate the plight of Americans without housing benefitted Whites far more than Blacks (building segregated housing, with most of the funding directed to White housing, loaning money to Whites to buy homes but not to Blacks). These housing disparities were worsened by the fact that, because Whites would not buy homes in Black neighborhoods, the home values for Black families were much lower that White home values, so there was less equity wealth to pass on to the next generation. Post-World War II policies such as the GI bill (financial aid to soldiers returning from war) also continued these racial exclusion policies. The banking practice of "red-lining" (drawing red lines around Black neighborhoods considered too risky for banks to insure their mortgages) reinforced wealth inequality.For most Americans, their biggest claim to wealth is their home equity--the net worth of their home. Since Blacks have been excluded in a variety of ways from owning homes and building home equity, they have far less wealth to borrow on (e.g., for their kids' education, for home improvements, etc.) and far less to pass on to the next generation when they die. Thus, the inequalities are built into the system and will continue to reproduce racial inequality until they are reformed.One more example of institutionalized racism: the "N-word." When you use the term "N-word," pretty much everybody knows exactly what you're referring to. While most of us may say that we despise the word and would never, ever use it ourselves, it is nevertheless firmly embedded in our minds, with or without our consent. It is a hidden but dangerous weapon we carry, ready to be used if we feel our White privilege is being threatened. Plus, there's no equivalent epithet to insult and inflict pain on Whites on a par with the "N-word." Cracker? Redneck? Whitey? We Whites do not feel a sting and can laugh them off. Not so when the "N-word" is hatefully hurled at Black folks.CRT looks at how these historical inequalities (the long and violent history of slavery and its aftermath) are perpetuated simply by going along with the way things as, refusing to question why things are the way they are. We Whites prefer to believe that we earned every privilege we have, oblivious to the barriers we did not have to face because we are White. Whites who oppose CRT fear exposing the advantages their white skin still confers, claiming, "That's the past! I never owned any slaves!" They ignore that these inequalities can and will persist until those of us who benefit say, "No more. We are determined to dismantle these structures of oppression and inequality."
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Michael Ixer ● 16d

Mr Rose'Is there a demonstration against Syria every weekend? Has any country referred Syria to the ICJ with an accusation of genocide? Is the situation in Syria on our tv screens every evening? Have any Btitish universities demanded a boycott of Syria?'Absolutely true.And the misuse of the term 'genocide' is appalling.In blunt numbers; 6 million Jews murdered on an industrial scale; 40,000 Palestinians killed in Israeli retaliation to the attack on its territory in October 2023. However it is claimed that many of the 40,000 are in fact Palestinian Hamas fighters who have bravely imbedded themselves into the civilian population.But as I have said earlier whilst many of its accusers are plain antisemites, Israel seems to have lost the PR campaign amongst many in the general public.There is a well orchestrated campaign against Israel and in favour of the Palestinians and other Arabs as you describe above, that seems to have gained support and sympathy of many - Mr Brigo being a major cheerleader.Having said that I am sure most people in this country take little interest in the matter as a whole.If asked however 'what do you think of the Palestinians that butchered, raped and sexually assaulted the Israeli women and children' I think the answer would be "disgusting".And if asked 'who do you think contributes more and causes less bother to Britain - its Jewish or its Islamic communities' I think the answer would be "the former".Anyway; "'bye Mr Brigo. It was interesting to read your points of view even if I think them misguided"

John Hawkes ● 16d

Mr Rose'My conclusion is that Israel is the victim of prejudice. Some of it is the product of a woke identification of Israelis as white Western imperialists victimising brown Palestinians. And some of it, as Robert says, is due to antisemitism'.You took the words out of my mouth !The dubious 'critical race theory' has a lot to answer for.Simplistically, in conflicts and many other social interactions, the 'whites' can do no right and the 'blacks/browns' can do no wrong.That's the way Western society works. Israelis and Jews are 'white' - even those that are practising Ethiopian and African-American Jews.Palestinians are 'brown' and therefore are considered always cruelly oppressed whatever they do and whose actions, however barbaric can always be justified in some way or another because of the way 'they' have been and are treated. There must be a deep self-loathing in many white British that they choose to support, seemingly without any proper analysis of the Middle East conflict, Palestinians in general, and some even to the extent of supporting or justifying the actions of extreme Palestinians such as Hamas or even the theocratic oligarchy that is Iran. And it is amusingly ironic that many of those that are young wokists are also vociferously pro-feminist, pro-gay and pro-trans which would get them locked up or killed in most Islamic countries. 'What is even more surprising is that Israel was actually the victim of a horrible atrocity in October by a genocidal terrorist organisation which has threatened to repeat it ‘again and again’. But rather than engendering sympathy this attack has been greeted with phrases like, ‘the conflict didn’t start on October 7’, not just from contributors to the Forum, but even from the Secretary General of the UN'.The basis of these comments is obviously anti-semitism for as you say other oppressors of Muslims such as the Chinese are never subject to protest marches at the Embassies or attacks on individuals in the street.And who is going to openly protest what the Russians are doing.Remember Alexander Litvinenko and the Salisbury poisonings ?Much too scary.They might retaliate !Let's pick on a few Jews in Muswell Hill.And the UN ......don't get me started !

John Hawkes ● 17d

It’s an interesting question. There are several ethnic conflicts in the world right now  e.g. the Burmese and the Rohingya, the Chinese and the Uighurs, the Russians and the Ukrainians. But the only nation which is regularly condemned is Israel.What can be the reasons for this? None of the explanations that come to mind are entirely convincing:1) The Palestinians are seen as the underdog by the British public. Possibly, but the Rohingya, the Uighur and the Ukrainians have all been victimised by powerful nations. The first two are hardly ever mentioned and the Ukrainians much less than before.2) The Palestinians enjoy sympathy as oppressed Muslims. This is certainly true as far as the Muslim population of the UK is concerned, but up to one million Muslim Uighur have been detained in concentration camps in China (not to mention cases of forced sterilisation) without the same level of protest.3) The conflict in Gaza, especially now that Iran has become directly involved, might provoke a war in the Middle East in which other nations like America and Russia could be involved. True, but the situation in Ukraine is even more dangerous, with a direct threat to the Eastern Block countries all of whom are  members of NATO.What is even more surprising is that Israel was actually the victim of a horrible atrocity in October by a genocidal terrorist organisation which has threatened to repeat it ‘again and again’. But rather than engendering sympathy this attack has been greeted with phrases like, ‘the conflict didn’t start on October 7’, not just from contributors to the Forum, but even from the Secretary General of the UN.My conclusion is that Israel is the victim of prejudice. Some of it is the product of a woke identification of Israelis as white Western imperialists victimising brown Palestinians. And some of it, as Robert says, is due to antisemitism.

Steven Rose ● 18d