Forum Topic

ECHR

This is interesting:https://www.bigissue.com/news/social-justice/dwp-benefit-claimants-bank-account-surveillance-human-rights/I wonder if all those on the far right clamouring to leave the ECHR will be so keen when they discover that this DWP delving into not just claimants' bank accounts but those connected in some way to the claimants - such as those of their landlords - might also be scrutinised and that such scrutiny on that scale may be a breach of human rights under the European convention? Of course, it's only a problem for those not paying  their taxes ....

Michael Ixer ● 20d24 Comments

I think it might be a reference to my original post that mentioned the DWP looking at landlords' back accounts. The thread has deviated as always happens!

Michael Ixer ● 12d

Sorry Philippa I am missing something. What has the lettings market to do with zealots?

Jane Carter ● 12d

I wonder whether lettings market has changed a lot since HMRC started checking it?

Philippa Bond ● 12d

I think that extremist ideologues don’t for the most part set out to deceive others - they are zealots who deceive themselves. Sometimes these zealots are just irritating but they can also be dangerous, as the Cass report indicates. Unfortunately people are often afraid to confront them for fear of being labelled racist or transphobic or simply uncaring.

Steven Rose ● 13d

Steven. I'm not sure there is a single word, one might have to consider the context and possibly intent of the statement, action,  etc. It could be anything from misleading, lying, conspiracy theorist, etc - I'd consider it important to take a view as to whether I considered it misinformation or disinformation; as per the NCSC definition:Disinformation: disinformation is the deliberate creation and dissemination of false and/or manipulated information that is intended to deceive and mislead audiences, either for the purposes of causing harm, or political, personal or financial gain.Misinformation: misinformation is the inadvertent sharing of false information.Hopefully, the appropriate word would spring to mind at the time given those parameters. (Depending on how well I knew the person bluntness, irony or flippancy might determine my response - the danger of public fora is not knowing the recipients or getting body language feedback. )

Michael Ixer ● 13d

What word, Michael, would you use to describe those people who engage in absurd, oppressive or injurious activism but attempt to defend it by saying that they are simply alert to injustice in your sense?

Steven Rose ● 13d

Precisely,  there's the original meaning of woke and the new, vague, slang use.I use it in the original sense of being well-informed and up-to-date so I and others are in line with a current interpretation of being alert to racial or social discrimination and injustices. I believe the language use started originally inthe US in the context of racial injustices such as those addressed by critical race theory.Used with that meaning it's a compliment as one's mot ignoring or ignorant of social injustices. 

Michael Ixer ● 13d

Woke is a vague but not entirely meaningless term. Woke ideology comprises a number of beliefs whose common denominator is a desire to protect oppressed minorities, whether on grounds of race or gender. Its adherents dislike the term woke because they think it is a pejorative term to describe what they believe to be ordinary decent values. But in its extreme forms woke ideology is a highly intolerant form of quasi-religious mania which in seeking to protect minorities actually discriminates against the majority. Sometimes its manifestations are absurd e.g. the practice of taking the knee at some Premiership matches (but not in the Championship nor in any of the other professional football leagues) even though football is the one sport in this country where black players are well represented. Sometimes  woke ideology is actually oppressive e.g. allowing female spaces to be used by transgender individuals whose feelings might be hurt if they are classified as men. And sometimes its manifestations are downright nasty e.g. no platforming speakers whose views run counter to this ideology. The worst  example of woke ideology, however, is undoubtedly the abusive treatment of children by medical professionals outlined in the Cass report.

Steven Rose ● 13d

I don't think the terms right and left have much meaning nowadays in the context of British politics. The policies of the Opposition and those of the Government are virtually indistinguishable. There are a large number of MPs who, were it not for tribal loyalty, could easily represent either of the main parties.

Steven Rose ● 14d

Yes - a bit like being called ‘woke’?

Jane Carter ● 14d

Interestingly,  I can think of some who'd consider it a compliment to be called 'far left'!

Michael Ixer ● 14d

The difference is that people aren’t immediately accused of being far-left by those who disagree with their views.

Robert Wheeler ● 14d

Similarly, there are no 'far left' parties in parliament, but there may be individuals of groups within parties that tend towards the more extreme views of parties in all parties. Of course, it's all subject to subjective personal opinion as I don't think the NPL has yet determined a standard measurement for political opinions. Perhaps if they did they could define a standard 'Milne' in honour of the the inventor of the swingometer, with bang in the centre being zero Milne. Of course to avoid arguments over which should be plus or minus it would need to be described, for example, as 6R Milne or 6L Milne :-)

Michael Ixer ● 14d

MPs who wish to withdraw from the European Convention of Human Rights are not 'far right', as one contributor to the Forum has suggested. There are no far right right parties represented in Westminster (unlike in some of the parliaments of countries in the EU). Nor are these MPs opposed to human rights, many of which in any case are enshrined in British law. They are concerned by the judicial activism of the judges at the European Court of Human Rights who view the Convention as a 'living instrument' which can be interpreted in ways not envisaged by its original signatories. This enables them to intervene in political issues which are normally the preserve of democratically elected national governments. The most recent example is their interpretation of Article 8 of the Convention  which guarantees the right to private and family life. This provision was introduced in the aftermath of the War to protect citizens from totalitarian governments who might wish to spy on them or curtail their right to live as a family and so on. However Article 8 has been used by the Court in Strasbourg to justify a ruling in favour of two Swiss women who brought a case against their government for failing to decarbonise quickly enough. It is likely that an independent nation like the Swiss, whatever their view on net zero, will resent the interference of the Court in a political issue which should be decided by their own democratically representatives.The Convention is a live issue in Britain because many people opposed to the policies of the current government, such as the plan to send some illegal migrants to Rwanda, see the (left of centre) judges in Strasbourg as an ally in their cause. Of course they don't want to be seen as undermining British democracy by openly advocating that the the will of Parliament should be overruled by judges in Strasbourg who have no democratic mandate. So they characterise those who wish to withdraw from the Convention as 'far right' activists opposed to human rights.

Steven Rose ● 14d

Exactly, Peter. If I remember correctly it's actually written into the Brexit agreement (!) and the Good Friday Agreement?

Michael Ixer ● 15d

Our company hosted a presentation from legal expert recently on the subject of post-Brexit legislation on our sector. Somebody raised the question of leaving the ECHR and she said that it was a complete non-starter. Putting aside the direct impacts on human rights, it is so embedded in contracts, laws and trade agreements that leaving could be more disruptive than Brexit, particularly in the service sector which has so far got off lightly. I'm sure the politicians proposing quitting know this but they also know that they aren't going to be in government so they can make up policies that are purely performative.

Peter Higgins ● 15d

One of those problems appears to have been people earning a small amount of money while on a ridiculously low Carer's Benefit.  Perhaps the Govt should sort out social care instead of taking such advantage of those who take care of family without enough help.  Sorting out social care would also mean that more people who are fit enough to leave hospital could do so.It just shows how those who are rich enough to use accountants to wriggle out of the taxes they would otherwise have to pay are at such an unfair advantage.  There is much more to life than just being legal or illegal.

Philippa Bond ● 19d

Ms Holliday'But delving into pensioners' and benefit claimants' bank accounts?'This does sound harsh and I take your point about the wealthy.But this latter group probably have good accountants that ensure they are not breaking the law.However apparently about 10 million people were receiving some sort of benefit excluding those receiving the State Pension.So the money involved is not small change and should be given under some scrutiny.

John Hawkes ● 20d

I just do not understand this.  The UK is becoming a totalitarian system....I do understand that fraud must be reduced and/or eliminated.  But delving into pensioners' and benefit claimants' bank accounts?  Pfff!!!  Breach of human rights not only under the Europan Convention but also under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.  Big Brother alright!If only the same principle would apply for all those incredibly wealthy people who somehow manage to evade tax....

Ivonne Holliday ● 20d

I agree with you on the police resources wasted on this issue. If she had come clean then thise resources would have been saved.What police resources were used by the met to find that Boris was wrong to have a bit of cake and a coca cola on his birthday ?

Andy Pike ● 20d

There was a very good article on the Rayner issue in the Sunday Times.  It contrasted Starmer’s refusal to even read the expert opinion with Sunak commissioning a report on Zahawi then sacking him when he got the findings.  Starmer shows he is a fence sitter so nothing new there.

Robert Wheeler ● 20d

Nothing snide about stating the fact that Rayner is being investigated for tax evasion, council tax fraud etc etc.If she gets found to have done nothing wrong then maybe she will think twice in future about hounding everyone else who has been the subject of an investigation BEFORE the result is found out.But you continue with your snide remarks about those who you disagree with or who disagree with you.

Andy Pike ● 20d

You're so keen with your snide remarks about Angela Rayner that you can't even wait to find out if the claims that she hasn't paid her taxes are actually true. Still, with at least 12 police officers investigating her (is there really no other crime for them to investigate in Greater Manchester?), I'm sure we will soon know the truth.

Richard Carter ● 20d

'Of course it's only a problem for those not paying their taxes'Dont suppose Angela Rayners a fan then

Andy Pike ● 20d