Forum Topic

"This happens in a war"

It was quite shocking to see Netanyahu's smirking non-apology apology for the IDF's killing of 7 aid workers in Gaza (see it on BBC News at 10 last night, about 3:50 in: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001xy2x/bbc-news-at-ten-02042024).  It's even more shocking when you read the details of what happened; this is from the Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/02/israeli-missiles-rain-down-british-aid-workers/ - paywall)."It was not a single rogue missile that killed seven aid workers on the coast road in central Gaza between 10 and 11pm on Monday night but three precisely targeted missiles. According to unnamed Israeli security sources who briefed the local media, they were dropped in succession from a Hermes 450 drone with sophisticated night sights and deliberately guided down on to the three clearly marked humanitarian vehicles travelling below.Even though the drone pilots would have had both the authority and technical means to swerve the bombs away until the very last moment, they chose not to. On the ground it was carnage. As the first vehicle was hit, several aid workers reportedly scrambled from it and into the other cars, before it was reduced to a burnt-out shell.An emergency call was put in to the Israeli authorities, who had cleared the mission ahead of time, but to no avail. As the two remaining vehicles continued their journey south on the Al Rashid Road, one was hit by a bomb that passed through the humanitarian badge on its roof. The third vehicle got another kilometre and a half before it, too, was picked off. All that remained of it at first light on Tuesday morning was a twisted, blackened hulk of metal."What's especially disturbing is that this is far from being an unusual incident: over 200 journalists have been killed in the conflict so far, and there are disturbing reports of children being shot by Israeli snipers despite the IDFs claim to be only targeting "terrorists and military targets."No doubt the usual suspects will claim justification on the grounds that Hamas is worse. So I'll save them the trouble, and say outright that Hamas has done many worse things. But that doesn't justify this and similar atrocities; even the White House has said of the WCK killings that it is "outraged" and Sunak has called it "appalling." But will they do anything other than mouth words? I doubt it...

Richard Carter ● 32d140 Comments

Ms BondAnd the answers to my questions are .......?!Web searching for irrelevant articles is just gas lighting.

John Hawkes ● 16d

Philippa why don’t you answer Steven Rose’s eloquent post of 18/4 @ 19.20.  With Hamas supported by many Palestinians and Iran committed to the annihilation of Israel nothing will change until that thought process stops.Hostages from 7 Oct have been traded eg bought and sold by Palestinians, raped and posted on line and still you bleat.  You love posting cuts and pastes why not just listen to a released hostage report on BBC this week.

Robert Wheeler ● 16d

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-11/ty-article/.premium/israel-has-declared-record-amount-of-west-bank-land-as-state-owned-in-2024/0000018e-c7a2-dd23-a3cf-e7a713c90000

Philippa Bond ● 16d

Ms BondIf you find my repeated descriptions of the October invasion a little tedious I am sorry. I keep recalling it because many seem now to have forgotten it and also that it was perpetrated by Palestinians who now seem to have captured the UK sympathy vote if the Saturday marches are any indication.From where have some of the Gazan Palestinians been displaced ?Unfortunate though it may be, many current Gazans are suffering the collateral effects of retaliation by the Israelis that Hamas attacked last October.The brave Hamas Arab boys having sneaked off to hide among civilians.What atrocities has Israel perpetrated that are similar in barbaric nature to those perpetrated by Hamas in October ?Who actually speaks for the Palestinians ?How did they obtain that right ?Does this body and hence the Palestinians accept the right of the state of Israel to exist ?We know Hamas does not.Do you ?Does the Nakba as you call it and the measures taken in the past by the Jews to set up the state of Israel invalidate its right to exist today ? Do you think Palestine should encompass more territory than it does at the moment, namely Gaza and the West Bank ?To me, specific questions and answers relating to the situation on the ground today are more pertinent than metaphorically digging up the past.

John Hawkes ● 16d

Philippa, I am curious about something. You have referred on more than one occasion to the ‘naqba’ of 1948  when hundreds of thousands of Palestinians left or were forced to leave their homes in what is now Israel. Would you consider the exodus and forced expulsion of Jews from Muslim countries in North Africa and the Middle East at around the same time as a similar ‘catastrophe’?

Steven Rose ● 17d

It's rather tragic that you only want to look back to 7 October and that you insist on endlessly regurgitating the horrors of that day.  This has gone on for far far longer and there have been many horrors. Many of those who live in Gaza have in living memory been displaced from other parts of the country and now feel that they are facing another Nakba - which seems to be something that you choose to ignore.

Philippa Bond ● 17d

Mr BrigoMs Bond writes - 'Meanwhile there has been an increase in the killings of Palestinians in the West Bank by Israeli settlers'.However to put the unfortunate incidents in some sort of context I am sure you have read this in the Guardian -'On Friday, a 14-year-old Israeli shepherd, Benjamin Achimeir, went missing from the Malachi Hashalom outpost near Ramallah in the West Bank.Over the weekend, hundreds of armed Jewish settlers raided Palestinian villages near the city of Ramallah, blocking roads, setting houses and cars ablaze, and firing at civilians, medics and civilians said.The attacks intensified after Achimeir was found dead nearby on Saturday in what Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, called a “heinous murder”. Israel said it was a suspected militant attack'.Mr Rose has posted one of his usual thoughtful and erudite comments which analyses the overall situation far, far better than I could.But to answer your question I do have something to say to you and all those Palestinian fifth columnists that address this Forum.And that is to remind them that on 7th October 2023 Israel was attacked by the Palestinian terrorist group and Iranian proxy Hamas who killed, raped, sexually assaulted and kidnapped hundreds of Jewish women and children.Hamas whose Charter states its aim of destroying the state of Israel and annihilating its Jewish citizens.Seems to have been forgotten by many who post comments like yours in order to gaslight people such that they forget who started this current conflict and who are the victims.

John Hawkes ● 17d

I am not sure which post John Hawkes was supposed to reply to. But if it was Philippa Bond's comment about settler violence on the West Bank, I would like to make the following comment. I think the creation of Israeli settlements in 1967 was a mistake and I would like to see them dismantled. I disapprove of settler violence just as I disapprove of attacks on the settlers by the Palestinians. The latest deaths of two Palestinians followed the abduction and murder of a 14 year old Israeli shepherd boy. This sectarian violence is awful. But what has any of this got to do with Gaza? Hamas did not carry out the atrocity on October 7 to obtain a Palestinian state on the West Bank. Their aim is to destroy Israel, kill the Jews and create a unitary Palestinian state on what they consider to be Muslim lands.

Steven Rose ● 17d

@John? nothing to say suddenly?

Michael Brigo ● 18d

Meanwhile there has been an increase in the killings of Palestinians in the West Bank by Israeli settlers.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/16/israel-settlers-kill-palestinians-west-bank-gaza#:~:text=During%20the%20activity%2C%20there%20was,settlers%2C%20among%20them%20armed%20fighters.

Philippa Bond ● 18d

Ms Holliday'It is also very important to point out that an embassy and consulate are under the jurisdiction and laws of the home country, not the host country.Therefore, the Israeli attack on the Iranian Embassy in Syria on 1 April 2024 is considered an attack on Iran'.We know that.Are you trying to demonstrate how much you object to attacks by Israel on Iran in this context ?Do you object to any attack on Iran by Israel in what is in prctice a war ?As much as the attack by the Iranian funded proxy Hamas on Israeli women and children on 7th October 2023 ?Reads like more whataboutery to me or an attempt to sway the jury with petty legal detail in a way that Rumpole of the Bailey would be proud.

John Hawkes ● 18d

It is also very important to point out that an embassy and consulate are under the jurisdiction and laws of the home country, not the host country.Therefore, the Israeli attack on the Iranian Embassy in Syria on 1 April 2024 is considered an attack on Iran.

Ivonne Holliday ● 18d

Mr Brigo'Glad you finally looked it up!'Not quite an attack on Iran.'an Israeli airstrike destroyed the Iranian consulate annex building adjacent to the Iranian embassy in Damascus, Syria'.As I said before, aiming to kill those plotting to annihilate Israel - in an 'annex building' in Damascus, Syria'.Sad to see some civilians also killed but nowhere near in number to the 300,000 Syrians killed by nepo-President Assad of Syria because they disagreed with him. Proves also Iran and Syria are much of a muchness when it comes to barbarity.In the end Mr Brigo you might have to make up your mind which side you are on in this conflict rather than pursue a policy of whataboutery nit-picking.

John Hawkes ● 18d

Glad you finally looked it up!

Michael Brigo ● 18d

Mr Brigo'This implies that you are unaware that Israel already attacked Iran on the 1st April'I am well aware that on 1 April 2024, an Israeli airstrike destroyed the Iranian consulate annex building adjacent to the Iranian embassy in Damascus, Syria killing 16 people.They included seven Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) soldiers, five Iran-backed militiamen, one Hezbollah fighter, one Iranian advisor, and two civilians.In addition to Zahedi, casualties included Zahedi's deputy Brigadier General Mohammad Hadi Haji Rahimi and five Iranian officials: Hossein Aman Elahi, Sayid Mehdi Jalalati, Ali Agha Babaei, Sayid Ali Salehi Roozbahani, and Mohsen Sedaghat. Zahedi was the most senior IRGC officer to be killed since the assassination of Qasem Soleimani by the U.S. in January 2020.They were probably NOT discussing how they could negotiate a peace settlement with Israel and most would probably think that as casualties in the war Iran is waging against Israel via proxies, they will not be much missed.

John Hawkes ● 18d

Ms Grant'Mr Hawkes I for one am grateful for your support as 8 am also for the support Israel received on Saturday night/Sunday morning from the US, UK, France, Jordan and Saudi Arabia against Iran'.I don't find it difficult to support Israel even though I think Netanyahu is not necessarily playing his hand with much political sophistication.Though abiding in the region for Millenia and also during this period suffering persecution that culminated in the Nazi genocide (in the true meaning of the word) Israel was formally recognised by the UN as a true and independent state in 1948.A state in which many Arabs are happy to be citizens and which has Arab members in its Parliament.Since then it has been constantly under attack or threat of attack by its Arab neighbours culminating in the attack by Palestinians from Gaza on 7th October 2023 when women and children were murdered, raped, sexually assaulted and kidnapped.It naturally retaliated as any country, including ours would under the circumstances.I write all of this to show why I find it easy to support Israel.It is a thriving entrepreneurial society that is run on democratic principles, the rule of law and a free press.And then we have Iran !A despotic theocratic oligarchy with a failed economy, governed by males that show no respect for the rights of its political opponents nor women nor those in the LGBTQ community and that is determined to destroy Israel.Not directly as its recent failed rocket attack shows it does not have the competence to do so.But indirectly by its surreptitious funding of terror group proxies such as Hamas and Hezbollah.So as someone who believes in democracy, rule of law, equality and individual freedom (and don't we all on this Forum ?) it is not hard to support Israel and condemn and despise Iran.Finally a very good analysis of what Iran is really up to in the Mail Online (yes I know- fascist right wing rag !) https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13316341/Ancient-hatreds-reshaping-Middle-East-forging-unlikely-alliances-STEPHEN-POLLARD.html PS I am sure he has not read this but my apologies to Mr Evans for going on so long.

John Hawkes ● 18d

Your comment says "Any attack by Israel will be in response to the massive but ineffective drone and rocket attack on it by Iran on Saturday."This implies that you are unaware that Israel already attacked Iran on the 1st April. Proving my point that you are uninformed on the subject you endlessly pontificate about. Same as you were completely unaware that Israel executed some of it's own people believing them to be Hamas civilians rather than Israeli hostages.

Michael Brigo ● 18d

Mr Brigo'I don't think John even knew that Israel had launched a strike against Iran tbh but then he's not very well informed generally'.See my comment - 16/04/24 17:19:00"Sticks and stones ....." !

John Hawkes ● 18d

See, that's actually a decent answer! I don't think John even knew that Israel had launched a strike against Iran tbh but then he's not very well informed generally.

Michael Brigo ● 19d

The answer to Michael Brigo’s question is that Israel’s missile strike was itself a response to Iran’s continual attacks on Israel via its proxies. Iran has for some time armed both Hezbollah and Hamas whose attacks have led to 200 000 Israelis having to abandon their homes along the northern and southern borders. The Houthis, who also get their missiles from Iran, have attacked Israeli  owned ships. Iran has always managed to distance itself from this aggression and escape retribution. Now the Israelis have brought the war home to Iran. The Revolutionary Guard are happy to hang dissidents and murder teenage girls in prison cells. Let’s see if they have the courage to pursue their aggression towards Israel if their own lives are in jeopardy.

Steven Rose ● 19d

I can't stand Iran, not that it's any of your business but I actually do some work with a charity in the UK that tries to help persecuted Iranian women.However, my point stands, if Israel is in your eyes entitled to respond to an attack why is Iran not? I'm confused by your logic.

Michael Brigo ● 19d

Mr Hawkes I for one am grateful for your support as 8 am also for the support Israel received on Saturday night/Sunday morning from the US, UK, France, Jordan and Saudi Arabia against Iran.

Lucille Grant ● 19d

Mr Brigo,I also forgot to add that gays receive the same sympathetic treatment as is meted out to women and political dissenters by these Islamists.A fact about which the UK protest group 'Queers for Palestine' that has been seen marching on Saturdays apparently has not yet noticed the irony of.

John Hawkes ● 19d

Mr Brigo'So presumably on that logic you have no issue with Iran also responding when attacked?Any attack by Israel will be in response to the massive but ineffective drone and rocket attack on it by Iran on Saturday.BTW I am intrigued that you should be so persistent in your defence of Iran; a fascist theocratic male oligarchy that executes women for not wearing what its male leadership decrees is compulsory religious dress in public, and executes any political dissenters by public hanging and even crucifixion.Oh, and its economy is up sh!t creek which in the end will probably bring about its demise.

John Hawkes ● 19d

I think it is worth mentioning that the high ranking officers of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard who were killed in the strike in Damascus were responsible for facilitating the attacks on Israel by Iran’s proxies: Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthis.

Steven Rose ● 19d

I was just checking because as I recall your current defence of Israel is that they are merely responding to an attack by Hamas?So presumably on that logic you have no issue with Iran also responding when attacked?

Michael Brigo ● 19d

Mr Brigo'You mean the Iranian attack in RETALIATION for the Israeli strike right' ?I assume you mean the attack on Iranian politicians and military commanders in Damascus.That's Syria where the nepo-leader Assad has reportedly killed 300,000 of his own people - a few more than those killed by Israel.'Iran said that several long-serving diplomats were killed alongside Brig Gen Mohammad Reza Zahedi and Zahedi’s deputy, Gen Haji Rahimi. It was also reported that Brig Gen Hossein Amirollah, the chief of general staff for the al-Quds force in Syria and Lebanon, was among the victims'."Couldn't have happened to nicer blokes" some might say ! 'Israel hasn’t claimed responsibility for the attack but has argued that the target was a “military building of Quds forces” — a unit of the IRGC responsible for foreign operations. “This is no consulate, and this is no embassy,” Israel Defense Forces (IDF) spokesperson Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari told CNN'.Of course neither Syria or Iran has ever committed any breach of International Law nor made unprovoked attacks on Israel and its citizens.Well perhaps not since 7th October 2023 when Hamas which is funded by Iran, invaded Israel and murdered, raped, sexually assaulted and kidnapped Israeli women and children.What brave lads !And one should not forget the numerous US embassies that the earlier Arab terrorist group al Qaida bombed.And now it is reported that Iran has placed many of its killers in London and already has started attacking people especially political exiles. But because of where your sympathies obviously lie, you should be OK.

John Hawkes ● 19d

"But following the recent attack on it by the fascist theocratic Islamic regime that is Iran, hopefully more people will understand the existential situation it finds itself in and understand why it reacts as it does."You mean the Iranian attack in RETALIATION for the Israeli strike right?

Michael Brigo ● 19d

Mr Evans'Forum - a situation or meeting in which people can talk about a problem or matter especially of public interest'If you don't like what I write then just walk on by and don't read it.I comment because I think attacks on Jews by Arabs is disgusting and I wish to offer them my support.

John Hawkes ● 19d

Dear Mr Hawkes, if “words fail you” then you certainly expend a great many of them, often repeating the same arguments over and over and over again. I’m afraid you are doing this on more than just this thread. I suggest you limit your posts to, say, 100 words? I’m sure I have very occasionally used more than this, but only very seldom. Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 19d

Ms GrantI totally agree with you about Israel's long historical presence in the Middle East and, especially because of its longstanding persecution and its experience of attempted genocide by the Nazis, its natural need and desire to continue to have a homeland in which to protect its people.I think that following a brief period of sympathy for it following its attack by Palestinians on 7th October 2023 when so many women and children were murdered raped or sexually assaulted, it was then deemed to be 'the bad guy' for its response.But following the recent attack on it by the fascist theocratic Islamic regime that is Iran, hopefully more people will understand the existential situation it finds itself in and understand why it reacts as it does.Regarding the position taken by Amnesty on the conflict I too find it a strange one.This is what I wrote to them regarding their initial comments on the situation and their response to me.They have promised me a further response.(Capitalisation is mine).My first communication to them on reading their website.-----------------------------------------------------------'I can recall when Amnesty International was rightly revered for, as its name implies, gaining the release of individuals imprisoned by evil regimes under dubious circumstances and supporting persecuted minority groups in despotic countries. Now Amnesty UK seems to be just another propagandising political organisation that takes sides in conflicts in which neither this country nor its citizens have any direct interest.Somewhat like the Socialist Workers Party or the Stop the War Campaign.Look at your mealy mouthed, biased and loaded comments on the Middle East conflict. (My capitalisation).'Right now, civilian deaths in Gaza are rising at a staggering rate. The Israeli authorities' 16-YEAR-LONG ILLEGAL AND INHUMANE BLOCKADE has trapped 2.2 million people in Gaza, including children, the elderly, and disabled, UNDER RELENTLESS BOMBARDMENT by ISRAELI AUTHORITIES.After horrific attacks in Israel by Hamas and other armed groups that, ACCORDING TO ISRAELI AUTHORITIES, resulted in 1,200 people killed and the abduction of civilians, at least 200 hostages held in Gaza also remain in danger, and ongoing indiscriminate rocket fire into Israel places civilians at risk.Palestinians and Israelis deserve a future where they can live free from violence and see an end to the fatal human rights violations that continue to destroy so many lives. Challenging the ISRAELI AUTHORITIES' SYSTEM OF APARTHEID OVER PALESTINIANS is now more urgent than ever'.Is this the best analysis your 320 (!) permanent staff and 95 volunteers are capable of ?John Hawkes -------------------------------------------------------Amnesty response----------------------------------------------------------Dear John,Thank you for your email.Amnesty International is monitoring the conduct of all parties to the Israel/Gaza conflict. As a human rights organisation, our focus is on respect for human rights and international humanitarian law, and we condemn all human rights violations, war crimes, and other crimes under international law – whether committed by the Israeli forces, Hamas or other armed groups.We have condemned unequivocally the attacks perpetrated by Hamas and other armed groups in Israel, we have repeatedly called for the immediate and unconditional release of all civilian hostages – https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-hamas-and-other-armed-groups-must-release-civilian-hostages-and-treat-all-captives-humanely/ - and we will continue to investigate the full scale and range of crimes carried out by Hamas and other armed groups in Southern Israel, including with the view of determining whether and how systematic or widespread they may have been.I am not sure what your specific concerns are or what statement you believe is inaccurate, but we do stand by our research. Amnesty International ensures impartiality in our human rights reporting through rigorous investigation, corroboration, and triangulation of information from multiple sources, whose reliability is also verified. We maintain a stance of criticism towards state and non-state actors that violate international law, including international human rights law.A ceasefire is crucial to put a stop to unlawful attacks by all parties, halt the rapidly rising civilian death toll in Gaza and enable aid agencies to get life-saving aid, water and medical supplies into Gaza in response to what have been staggering levels of human suffering.I hope this is useful in explaining our work on this issue.Kind regards,Lauren----------------------------------------------------My further response'Lauren (respondent to my original complaint)Thank you for your response.Whatever you declare your mission to be it is the tone and style of what you have published on the current Middle East conflict that caused me to describe them as  - 'mealy mouthed, biased and loaded' 1) 16-YEAR-LONG ILLEGAL AND INHUMANE BLOCKADE has trapped 2.2 million people in Gaza, including children, the elderly, and disabled, UNDER RELENTLESS BOMBARDMENT by ISRAELI AUTHORITIES.Are you saying that for 16 years an Israel blockade has denied the Palestinians in Gaza access to food, medical care, fuel, electricity and water ?How have they survived ?Who has declared this blockade illegal ?Are you saying the blockade has been maintained by 'relentless bombardment' for 16 Years ?How many Gazans were killed by this bombardment prior to Israel's post 7 October 2023 retaliatory attacks following the invasion of its territory ?Inhumane is a subjective and political term that a supposedly neutral organisation like yours should not be using, especially when those you accuse, namely the Israelis have been subjected to existential threats from its Arab neighbours, over and above those in Gaza, for a very long time.Even before the invasion by Palestinians on 7th October 2023 and the rape, sexual assault and kidnapping of Jewish women and children.And following their experience in perhaps the only real genocide in the 20th century, perhaps Israelis and Jews have a justification for being sensitive to attacks and taking steps to forcibly defending themselves. 2) 'attacks in Israel by Hamas and other armed groups that, ACCORDING TO ISRAELI AUTHORITIES, resulted in 1,200 people killed and the abduction of civilians, at least 200 hostages held in Gaza also remain in danger'.Subtle victim shaming here.Every reputable news media, not just the 'Israel authorities', has reported on and confirmed the invasion of Israel by Hamas.Do you disbelieve them all ?Even Hamas itself which videoed its attack and the rapes, sexual assaults and kidnappings it perpetrated, and has proudly made its actions public ?Which organisation or media outlet has not in fact said this attack took place ?3) Challenging the ISRAELI AUTHORITIES' SYSTEM OF APARTHEID OVER PALESTINIANS is now more urgent than ever'.Words fail me.This is pure one-sided and cliched political propaganda which it is my understanding is not in your mission to deliver. Where is this apartheid taking place ?Not in Israel.Take a look at the ethnic breakdown of Israeli citizens and members of the Knesset and note the large percentage of those with Arab ancestry willing and probably desperate to live there.They are please to live in equality alongside Jews in a society that is run, like the UK, on the basis of parliamentary democracy, the rule of law, freedom of speech and freedom to thrive economically.Not something that can be said of Israel's Arab neighbours.Your 320+ staff and 95 volunteers should be ashamed of what they have written and be given training in un-prejudiced political analysis and how to express it.That is if it is accepted that making grandstanding political comment is in fact part of their job spec.How are your staff recruited and selected to ensure they enact your mission and not use your platforms to propagate their own political opinions and biases ?I will look with interest to see your reaction to the Iranian drone attack on Israel yesterday; pleasingly repelled by the UK air force and many others in the West and even Jordan and further condemned by some other Arab states.I hope I will not see any support or justification by your staff for these aggressive actions carried out on the orders of the fascist 'Mad Mullahs'.Do you have any workers on the ground monitoring human rights in that truly God forsaken yet theocratic hell hole that is Iran ?A country where women's, gay and trans rights are forcibly opposed and oppressed, by death in some instances, and one far more worthy of your condemnation than Israel.To end on a more positive and supportive note, I do commend you for the 'Small Actions with a big difference' campaigns you are promoting.In my view exactly what your remit should be about rather than posturing on the world stage.John Hawkes

John Hawkes ● 19d

Mr Rose'A powerful plea, Lucille, which I regret to say is likely to fall on deaf ears since prejudice is impervious to rational argument. Reference to the trauma inflicted on the Israeli psyche by the pogrom of October 7 is regarded as weaponising the Holocaust. The massacre itself is equated to the tragic incident when hostages were mistaken for Hamas fighters. And the all important question of how the Israelis should go about removing the threat from Hamas is described as meaningless since Hamas is viewed as  posing no threat to Israel'.You are right again.Lewis Carroll and George Orwell would marvel at the idiotic doublespeak put out by the Palestinian/Hamas spokesmen (not women !) and its fifth column supporters.

John Hawkes ● 23d

A powerful plea, Lucille, which I regret to say is likely to fall on deaf ears since prejudice is impervious to rational argument. Reference to the trauma inflicted on the Israeli psyche by the pogrom of October 7 is regarded as weaponising the Holocaust. The massacre itself is equated to the tragic incident when hostages were mistaken for Hamas fighters. And the all important question of how the Israelis should go about removing the threat from Hamas is described as meaningless since Hamas is viewed as  posing no threat to Israel.

Steven Rose ● 24d

Ms GrantI can recall when Amnesty International was rightly revered for, as its name implies, gaining the release of individuals imprisoned by evil regimes under dubious circumstances.Now Amnesty UK is just another propagandising political organisation that takes sides in conflicts in which this country nor its citizens have any direct interest.Somewhat like the Socialist Workers Party or the Stop the War Campaign.Look at its mealy mouthed, biased and loaded comments on the Middle East conflict. (My capital letters).'Right now, civilian deaths in Gaza are rising at a staggering rate. The Israeli authorities' 16-YEAR-LONG ILLEGAL AND INHUMANE BLOCKADE has trapped 2.2 million people in Gaza, including children, the elderly, and disabled, UNDER RELENTLESS BOMBARDMENT by ISRAELI AUTHORITIES.After horrific attacks in Israel by Hamas and other armed groups that, ACCORDING TO ISRAELI AUTHORITIES, resulted in 1,200 people killed and the abduction of civilians, at least 200 hostages held in Gaza also remain in danger, and ongoing indiscriminate rocket fire into Israel places civilians at risk.Palestinians and Israelis deserve a future where they can live free from violence and see an end to the fatal human rights violations that continue to destroy so many lives. Challenging the ISRAELI AUTHORITIES' SYSTEM OF APARTHEID OVER PALESTINIANS is now more urgent than ever'.As the UN - its overpaid bureaucrats and its majority membership of backward and corrupt regimes - is also biased against it, thank God that at least the UK and the US still gives Israel some semblance of support in its fight for survival against its barbaric Arab neighbours and the terrorist proxies of Iran.

John Hawkes ● 24d

This is what happens when Jews do fight back.In today's i newsThe 7 October massacre taught Jews, yet again, the world doesn’t care. There has been an extraordinary global effort to deny this attack even occurred ‘We are six months on from the deadliest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust,’ says Kate Maltby. Ed Miliband, then leader of the Labour Party, made an official visit to Israel in April 2014. Like most dignitaries, one of his first stops was Yad Vashem, the memorial complex that honours Jewish victims of the Holocaust and the non-Jews who tried to save them.The next day, Miliband had a courtesy meeting with Benjamin Netanyahu, though the two men have little in common. Netanyahu opened by asking about Miliband’s visit to Yad Vashem. “You saw the memorial to all the dead Jews?” he asked, according to one Miliband aide present. “My job is to ensure that there are no more memorials.”We are six months on from the deadliest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. The scale of the destruction wreaked on Gaza by Netanyahu, the latest act in this land’s unholy revenge tragedy, has been a useful distraction for some from the trauma that the events of 7 October evoked across the Jewish world.There has been an extraordinary global effort to deny this attack even occurred. If you are among those who believe that Jews are a globally privileged race who fabricate a history of persecution; that Jews are fraudsters and liars and thus masters of the “false-flag” operation; or that Jews have no right to call themselves a race at all, you may well prefer to deny that Jews have suffered in this conflict. But in that case, at least have the courtesy to call yourself an antisemite.The rest of us, if we are serious about peace, need to understand these revenge cycles and how to break them. That means recognising the impact of the 7 October trauma on the Israeli psyche. It means recognising that many Israelis feel profoundly betrayed by international institutions such as the UN and Amnesty International, whom they perceive as denying Jewish pain while swiftly amplifying Palestinian perspectives.It also means understanding that on the most basic level, Netanyahu has failed in his own key goal as Israel’s Prime Minister. October 7, the greatest failure of Israeli intelligence, happened on his watch. (We already know that warnings from scouts were ignored: not because the Israeli government wanted the attack to happen, as antisemites will tell you, but potentially because these scouts were young women.)Already, the burned-out villages of Kibbutz Be’eri, Kfar Aza and Nir Oz stand as memorials to the latest names in the annals of Jews killed for being Jews. (“Your son killed Jews!”, boasted one Hamas fighter to his parents on a recorded call from the scene. “I’m talking to you from a Jewish woman’s phone, I killed her and her husband!”)The presence of non-Jews and foreign nationals in these communities did not make the violence any less ethnic in motivation. The Thai and Nepali civilians killed in Kibbutz Alumim were murdered by Hamas for the crime of working for Jews, and Hamas supporters online have cited this as justification for their deaths.When Netanyahu met Ed Miliband, some in the Labour leader’s group considered his language about the Holocaust an uncomfortable and unsuccessful attempt at emotional blackmail, given Miliband’s own Jewish heritage. His reported words about memorials “to dead Jews”, however, echo similar statements Netanyahu has made throughout his leadership, most frequently when addressing American audiences.The archaeological record shows that the Jewish people have had a presence in the land of Israel since at least the second millennium BC, and the modern state was formed out of trauma, by a population who had watched as the rest of the world failed to protect Jews from Nazi persecution or Arab antisemitic violence, including the 1941 Farhud pogrom against Baghdad’s Jewish community. One of the most frequent questions asked at Holocaust museums is: “Why didn’t the Jews fight back?” The State of Israel was founded by those that did.You do not have to accept that the foundation of modern Israel was the correct response to understand the history here, and the political power of Netanyahu’s repeated promises to keep Israeli Jews safe. On 7 October, he failed in that promise.Polls and protests show that growing numbers of Israelis recognise this. On Sunday’s anniversary of the attacks, the Kan public broadcaster in Israel found 42 per cent of their respondents want Netanyahu’s resignation immediately, with a further 29 per cent saying he should step down after the war concludes. Israelis know that he has failed them.But if Netanyahu is eventually ousted – and we can only hope, his extremist ally Itamar Ben-Gvir with him – then any new Israeli leader will have the challenge to reset Israel’s relationships with its allies. Under pressure in their own countries, Britain and America continue to make noises about pulling military support. In turn, Israel’s next leader will face internal pressure to reject robustly the language of his Western critics.... It is impossible to overstate how deeply Israelis feel betrayed by the failures of the UN, for example, to recognise the prevalence of sexual violence during the attacks of 7 October. There is still fury at the credence given to criticisms of Israel made by Francesca Albanese, UN Special Rapporteur for the Occupied Territories, despite the fact that she once shared an open letter describing the USA as “subjugated by the Jewish lobby”.Only this week, Amnesty International shared a post about the death of Palestinian prisoner Walid Daqqa, whom it described as “a writer”. Daqqa had not been imprisoned for writing anything. He was convicted of leading a terror cell which kidnapped a 19-year-old Israeli boy, holding him hostage over two days in which it gradually gouged out his eyes, castrated him, mutilated him elsewhere, and then finally shot him dead. His name was Moshe Tamam.There are important, alternative perspectives on each of these stories. Palestinians will point out that Tamam was a soldier; and that Walid Daqqa’s conviction was based on only a low bar of evidence. Palestinian feminists – correctly, as I wrote last month – will point to clear evidence that Israeli soldiers are also guilty of sexual violence, sexually humiliating Palestinian women and proudly posting videos of lingerie seized from Palestinian homes.Yet Israel’s people are in no mood to take these criticisms from a world which turned its back on Jewish suffering. It cannot understand when the cities of its allies erupt with protests, calling on it to implement a ceasefire broken first, and repeatedly, by its enemies. The massacre of 7 October, a modern pogrom, taught Israelis that Netanyahu had failed to keep them safe. It also taught them the rest of the world didn’t care.

Lucille Grant ● 24d

I read Shada Islam’s article and the thing I disliked most about it was her reference, thrown in almost casually in her concluding paragraph, to the ‘unfolding genocide’ in Gaza. Needless to say, no evidence is provided to support this appalling accusation. Indeed if she had any evidence that Israel plans to exterminate the Palestinian population of Gaza, which is what genocide means, that would have been the focus of her article, rather than the disappointment felt by activists in the ‘global south’ over the hypocrisy of the EU in failing to boycott Israel. But this seems to be the modus operandi of many critics of Israel. They slip in nasty libels as if they were facts that need no further justification.

Steven Rose ● 24d

Mr CarterYou might choose to read an article in the Guardian by Shada Islam: 'an influential Brussels-based specialist on European Union affairs who works independently as a commentator, advisor, analyst, strategist and media trainer'. (Her words).It was titled - 'Europe’s Gaza betrayal has broken the trust of millions of people in the global south'Surprisingly her biased article was received with pretty unanimous raspberries from Guardianistas who might have been expected to lap up, as many do, any criticism of Israel implied or explicit.Not least because of her patronising supposition that all in 'the global south' are anti-Israel or even that such a group even exists and would always speak with one voice.Perhaps the tide is turning within the 'anti-Israel/pro-Palestine' zeitgeist.

John Hawkes ● 25d

Mr RoseSome years ago, because of a tenuous link based upon my wife's great, great uncle being involved with Woolwich Arsenal, we on occasion felt tempted to get tickets to watch them play at the old Highbury stadium when they were playing run of the mill teams like ....Fulham.Then of course they moved to the Emirates at the same time as they started promoting Rishi Sunak's policy of encouraging people to visit Ruanda ! About ten years ago, if not wishing to pay c.£2K to become a season ticket holder one could join a tiered Membership scheme ranging in benefit and cost from Platinum to Red.We could only get Red member ship which entitled us to apply for tickets, again for games against middle to low ranking teams like....Fulham, in the top rows of the goal end stands.It was like watching Subbeteo ! Then it clicked that in fact we lived very close to Craven Cottage and that Fulham was our local team.We managed to buy season tickets half way up the Johnny Haynes stand aligned to the penalty spot at the Hammy end where we sit to this day.Mohamed Al-Fayed was the owner, attending every match and proudly milking the cheers of the crowd as he walked across the pitch from the Cottage to the Directors' Box.This also coincided with Woy Hodgson taking over as manager, the club qualifying for the Europa by earning a 'fair play' place and our setting out on a European tour which ended not ingloriously in the final at Hamburg versus Atletico Madrid.The highlight on the way was in fact at home when Clint Dempsey scored the winning goal against Juventus in a 4-1 win in the quarter finals after losing 3-1 away . Sergio Aguero scored the winning goal in the last minutes of extra time in the final !Danny Murphy was an inspirational captain.Sad to read of his trials and tribulations after that period of his career.Now of course we are owned by Mr Khan (not the Mayor) and I am convinced that like the American who was sold London and not Tower bridge, Al-Fayed convinced him he was buying Spurs and White Hart Lane as he also wanted to stage American Football.But he is investing millions, not in players unfortunately but in the new Riverside stand with its Michelin starred restaurants and rooftop infinity pool and seats costing £100+.Just hope my pensioner's season ticket is price-protected !

John Hawkes ● 25d

My Hawkes. I believe the JWST controversy was originated by astronomers and astrophysicists in the US, and talking to gay friends who live in the US it's not that bewildering as I believe homosexual activity was still illegal in some states until after 2000 and US Visa applications asked a question about it until 1990. Hence, it's still fresh in a lot of people's minds there whatever their sexuality. I think the doubt is over whether James Webb personally was homophobic or just implementing the prevailing government and academics rules and attitudes of the time. NASA seems to have been running with the later although of course it is a wonderful telescope, while it's easy to refer to it as the JWST - even if one does have to explain what it is!

Michael Ixer ● 25d

Mr Ixer'JWST - the James Webb Space Telescope (otherwise known as the Just Wonderful Space Telescope'Thanks for the info.Bewildering that people involved his views on sexuality when commenting on his work.Football is not really a religion to me though at my place of worship, Craven Cottage, I have experienced both agony and ecstasy ! To Bill Shankly the old Liverpool manager of course football was not a matter of life and death "it was far more important than that" !Back to sexuality, the sobriquet 'Cottagers' when identifying the team is not encouraged by its American owners !

John Hawkes ● 25d

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/16/1219826061/israel-hostages-gaza-hamas-palestinians

Michael Brigo ● 25d

Mr Brigo"incidents such as this that if true" ummmmmm? You don't believe it happened?"I cannot find where the incident was reported.Please provide the link.'It happened because Israel is showing a complete and utter disregard for human rights'.Until you provide a verified source for the claim it seems a little previous of you to give your opinion on WHY it happened.

John Hawkes ● 25d

That reminds me, I was dragged along to Fulham's ground several times in the early 80s by mates from Wigan and Middlesbrough to watch Rugby League on a Sunday afternoon - is that heresy?!

Michael Ixer ● 26d

I have made my feelings clear about what Hamas did on the 7th a number of time and do not feel the need to keep repeating the point."incidents such as this that if true" ummmmmm? You don't believe it happened?Seeing as you don't seem to know if it even really happened i'll clear something up for you. It happened because Israel is showing a complete and utter disregard for human rights. We should demand better of our allies than lowering themselves to the same level as their terrorist opponents.

Michael Brigo ● 26d

As an Arsenal fan I don't share your predilection for Fulham, though I did once go down to Craven Cottage fifty years ago to watch George Best. (I was seated near Johnny Haynes who held his head in his hands most of the game). ButI defend your right to proclaim your allegianc, to wear the scarf if you wish without fear of disclosing your identity and even to criticise Arsenal, though there is not much to criticise at the moment apart from a bit of play acting.

Steven Rose ● 26d

Mr Hawkes. As an atheist I can be critical of aspects of several religions but I believe one needs to be sensitive to individuals' beliefs, but sometimes a bit of humour can point out the ridiculous aspects of some organisationed aspects of religion. I don't follow football but I understand following Fulham football club isn't always the joyous event that some feel their religion is? :-)JWST - the James Webb Space Telescope (otherwise known as the Just Wonderful Space Telescope by some gay astronomers because of his alleged dubious attitude towards homosexual colleagues) and it is a marvellous piece of technology producing some exciting scientific results; and on this sad day one has to say RIP to Peter Higgs and thank you to him for his significant contribution to theoretical physics :-(

Michael Ixer ● 26d

Mr IxerThank you.'not everyone in the UK feels they can express their religious views without fear of reprisals'.Not only that there is now the fear of reprisal for criticising the religion itself that certain people hold.I don't mean targeting someone specifically because of their membership of a religion as is now frequently the case (as seen in the increasing number of attacks on Jews), but simply criticising  the religion itself.Some now claim a personal hurt when their religion is criticised and then turn this metaphorical hurt into an excuse for inflicting real physical hurt on the critic. Islam like Judaism is just a belief as is my belief in Fulham FC and their divine right to win the Premiership next season.Good manners would mean that criticism is delivered in a non-threatening and polite way of course but freedom of speech should allow it.(BTW what is JWST) ?!

John Hawkes ● 26d

Mr Brigo'Just remind me again how shirtless men waving a white flag were mistaken for militants?'I have no idea and neither do you so why speculate or raise this regrettable but in the scheme of things minor issue.In times of war there will always be incidents such as this that if true no one would condone, perpetrated by both sides in the conflict. However, I may be an old cynic but I think you raise it in order to divert attention from the major issue.That is that on 7th December 2023 Palestinian militants, part of a proscribed terrorist organisation, invaded Israel a sovereign country and murdered, raped, sexually molested and kidnapped hundreds of innocent women and children and, for their further gratification and that of their supporters, videoed these despicable acts and posted them on the web.Pretty obvious attempt at what psychologists call 'deflection'.

John Hawkes ● 26d

Mr Hawkes. I'd have to agree with your points in that post, particularly the constitutional place of religion in the UK and France, and that it's sad these days that not everyone in the UK feels they can express their religious views without fear of reprisals - even though I have no desire personally to associate myself with any religion! (I'll stick with my lapel badge of the JWST ...)

Michael Ixer ● 26d

Mr Hawkes 😂

Lucille Grant ● 26d

Just remind me again how shirtless men waving a white flag were mistaken for militants?

Michael Brigo ● 26d

Do you really see no difference between shooting hostages by error, after mistaking them for Hamas militants, or even unfortunately killing civilians when returning fire from Hamas fighters using them as human shields, and on the other hand raping, torturing, mutilating  and  slaughtering civilians, then desecrating their bodies and sending the pictures back home?

Steven Rose ● 26d

That's right, because Israel has always taken care to make sure it never kills innocent civilians.Ooops, apart from that time when they killed those shirtless men walking towards them waving a white flag - and then it turned out they were hostages escaping Hamas!Awkward

Michael Brigo ● 26d

Ms Bond'We are a secular country as is France'.This is true in the sense that in many surveys determining religious beliefs of the population, agnosticism, nontheism, atheism, secular humanism, and non-affiliation are views shared by a majority of Britons.On this basis British society is one of the most secularised in the world.However the Church of England is the state church of its largest member country by population, England.Hence it plays official roles in many state functions particularly of course the Coronation of our Head of State the monarch.It also has political power in that its representatives the Bishops can play a legislative role in Parliament in the House of Lords.This is in fact much different from the secularism in France when any concept of a state religion or a role of the church in the business of government was dramatically put aside in 1789.Then after a period of fudging the relationship of church and state by Bonaparte and others, the situation was clarified in law in 1905.This instituted the formal and legal separation of Church and State and prohibited the government from recognising, salarying, or subsidising any religion.That being said religion in France is diverse, which could be attributed to the country's adherence not only to secularism and freedom of religion but more importantly freedom of thought, as guaranteed by the 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen. The Republic is based on the principle of laïcité (or "freedom of conscience").However the French law on secularity bans wearing conspicuous religious symbols in French public (e.g., government-operated) primary and secondary schools. The law is an amendment to the French Code of Education that expands principles founded in existing French law, especially the constitutional requirement of laïcité: the separation of state and religious activities.What seems to have disturbed this relative tranquillity is perhaps the rise of more militant Islamism.France came to an uproar in January 2015, when eight writers and cartoonists were shot dead by two terrorists who raided the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo. For years, it had been threatened by Muslim fundamentalists for publishing under its right to freedom of expression, cartoons criticizing Muhammad. While condemnation of this attack was unanimous in the West and among the internationally recognized governments of the Muslim world, some militants approved, stating that it was right to kill those who insulted Muhammad.With the recent rise of a more militant world-wide Islamism there have been violent protests especially over what Muslim girls should be allowed to wear in school.This has lead to a headteacher in Paris being forced to quit over fears for his life due to death threats made against him after he told a teenage pupil to remove her Islamic head-covering in line with French law.Very similar unfortunately to the circumstances in Batley, where a  teacher received death threats from Muslim parents and others after showing pupils the Charlie Hebdo cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed during an RE lesson almost two years ago and has remained in hiding ever since as he fears for his life.'However that does not mean that it is always wise to advertise your religion'.This may in practice be very true but is this not a very sad reflection of our society today.Why Ms Bond should the majority in this country be held to ransom by a fanatical minority ?

John Hawkes ● 26d

Just to clarify, Michael Brigo asked, ‘Why is it that if you dare to suggest that maybe there is a bit of history before October 7, you are immediately labelled as an antisemite and a supporter of Hamas?’If on October 7 Hamas had fired on Israeli military personnel, and maybe taken them hostage in order to exchange them for Palestinians prisoners held in Israeli jails, such an attack, though unjustifiable, might have been seen as an act of war to be understood in the context of the ongoing conflict between Hamas and Israel. But the savagery displayed by Hamas on that day means that their assault cannot conceivably be regarded as an act of war. It was an unspeakable atrocity comparable with the terrible crimes committed by the Nazis. So a remark like ‘ the war did not begin on October 7 gives rise to a suspicion of antisemitic prejudice against Israel and a willingness, if not to condone, then to ‘understand’ the barbarity of Hamas. This gives offence to Israelis and to Jewish people everywhere.As regards the rise of antisemitism in Britain, Philippa Bond suggested that it would be wise for Jewish people not to wear ‘obviously religious items’ in public. Would Philippa advise Christians not to wear crucifixes or Muslim women not to wear head scarves, or is it only Jewish people who should conceal their identity in public?

Steven Rose ● 26d

Ms GrantWell put 🙌But won't you confuse some posters if you deal in facts !!😊"Yes but...no but...yes but..."😂

John Hawkes ● 26d

There is no doubt that Hamas had been planning this war for years by building the extensive tunnel network beneath civilian homes, hospitals and schools and transporting their weaponry underground from Egypt. THe actual war itself was begun by them on 7 October. As for history by 22 September 2005, Israel's withdrawal from the entire Gaza Strip to the 1967 Green Line, and the eviction of the four settlements in Samaria, was completed. In June 2007 Hamas took over the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority. Gaza was not under occupation by Israel after 2005. Hamas took over  and had  just one election, in 2006.

Lucille Grant ● 26d

The answer to Michael Brigo’s question is that a comment like ‘the war did not begin on October 7’ is code for ‘the Israelis  brought it on themselves’.

Steven Rose ● 27d

Lucille: But why did Hamas "start the war"? Because what it believes Israel has done to its neighbours in the past. You have to go back in history to make sense of this conflict. To suggest that the crisis "began" on 7 October is to deny the processes of history, no matter what your stance is on the war today.

Alexander MacLeod ● 27d

No one has suggested any poster is pro Hamas. Of course there is history before 7 October but this war was begun by Hamas on 7 October.

Lucille Grant ● 27d

This is utterly painful to read. Why is it that if you dare to suggest that 'maybe there is a bit of history before 7th Oct' you are immediately labelled an anti-semite and a supporter of Hamas? There is not one single person on here who has indicated any support of Hamas or their actions and yet it appears to be the only line you have. All a bit pathetic really.

Michael Brigo ● 27d

Hello Lucille,I would have thought that, should the Red Cross have been allowed to visit the Israeli hostages, would that not have given their location away?I very much doubt that they were unwilling to go but more than likely, not allowed to go by Hamas.

Ivonne Holliday ● 27d

Hello Lucille,I totally agree with you that Israel has a right to exist.  I do not think that was ever in question.What saddenes me enormously, if not angers me, is how many parts of Gaza have been razed to the ground.  It saddens me for normal Palestinian people who have lost their houses and other infrastructure.  I have to say, without hesitating for a second, that that feeling does not extend to the wretched Hamas.

Ivonne Holliday ● 27d

Coming from you that is hilarious……

Robert Wheeler ● 27d

I think you had better do some reading.

Philippa Bond ● 27d

Well you are which is why you constantly keep lauding this.  It’s simple - Isreal is reacting to the events on October 7th - any other interpretation is deliberate obfuscation.  Read Lucille’s or Steven’s previous posts if you want an educated version of Israel/Palestine history.

Robert Wheeler ● 27d

Why the bible?  Many Palestinians and/or their parents living in Gaza would have originally been displaced from elsewhere during the Nakba and settled in Gaza as refugees. Are you denying the Nakba?  I don't think anybody has denied the 7 October - how could they?

Philippa Bond ● 27d

Well said Lucille.  Philippa  So you insist on digging beyond Oct 7th to where - the bible?  For goodness sake move on and recognise the heinous attack on Oct 7th the rape, murder and capture of innocents which has now triggered the current events.

Robert Wheeler ● 27d

I don't agree with you about 7 October.I did not say that you should NOT wear obviously religious items I said that it may not be wise to.  Many people do wear them but few wear anything very obvious.  Perhaps we should question why anybody would want to wear anything so very obvious?When there was a spate of muggings of children in particular blazers for their mobiles it was suggested that they wear a coat over them.  With that change and with an initial bit of police presence the interest quickly faded.As I understand it you do not have to belong to a particular religion here to attend a particular school despite what the school calls itself. In my view it would be better certainly in the early years if there was no obvious indication of religion.

Philippa Bond ● 27d

'I seem to remember an exchange of posts we had last year or the one before when I said I did not agree with Netanyahu's policy if agreeing to extra settlements in the West Bank.  I may be wrong, but I think you agree with me on the latter.'You are quite right Ivonne. I did, and still do, agree with you on this point. I have not visited Israel for many years simply because I do not agree with the Right Wing Government policies of encroaching on Palestinian land on the West Bank.It is up to Israeli citizens who they appoint to govern  albeit they have a dreadful proportional representation system which has resulted in extremists becoming part of government. Nevertheless it is a democracy, unlike Gaza where Hamas rule with an iron fist and haven't allowed free elections since 2006.However I will support Israel's right to exist until my dying day. When Gaza is rebuilt I hope the billions of relief money will be spent on an infrastructure that is for Palestinian civilians and the funds are not siphoned off by Hamas again to build their tunnels underneath homes, hospitals, schools etc, nor to fund  rockets and other weaponry. Gaza should be a demilitarized zone if October 7 and the past six months is not to be repeated.

Lucille Grant ● 27d

Philippa while unrest has been rumbling on for  a long time this war DID begin on October 7 when attacks on Israeli territory by armed groups led by Hamas's Qassam Brigades from Gaza, killed 1,139 people and took about 250 captive. This is an indisputable fact.France is an entirely secular state as my French partner often reminds me, and has been since the Revolution. As far as I'm aware Britain is predominately a Christian (Anglican) country with King Charles being Head of the Church of England and we have numerous faith schools, predominantly Church of England and Catholic, unlike France.How dare you suggest that people of any religion should not wear items that identify their faith or that school children should be subjected to attacks simply because of their faith?I notice you don't mention that these attacks are specifically aimed at Jewish people and are recorded as such.From Hansard 19 February 2024Chris Philip The MInister for Crime, Policing and Fire stated 'Last week, the Community Security Trust published its latest report on antisemitic incidents. It made for deeply disturbing reading. It showed that there were 4,103 instances of anti-Jewish racist hatred recorded across the UK in 2023. That is the highest annual total ever reported to the Community Security Trust. It is a 147% rise from the 1,662 antisemitic incidents the previous year, and 81% higher than the previous yearly record of 2,261 incidents, reported in 2021. Most shockingly, more than two thirds of the incidents reported last year occurred on or after 7 October, when Hamas perpetrated its barbaric terrorist attack on Israel. The report also indicates that antisemitism began spiking before Israel’s military response had begun: the week immediately following 7 October saw 416 antisemitic incidents reported to the CST, which is higher than any subsequent week'But please don't let your antisemitism come between your views and the facts.

Lucille Grant ● 27d

This war did not start on 7 October.  It came suddenly to world attention on 7 October.  It was unfinished business and has been festering for years.  Both the US and the UK have been ducking decisions time and time again at the UN.We are a secular country as is France.  However that does not mean that it is always wise to advertise your religion just as it may not be wise to advertise your wealth which in the case of children may include which school they attend.

Philippa Bond ● 27d

Ms Grant'As Jews we have so many enemies crawling triumphantly out of the woodwork (and sadly I see some on this forum) behind the facade of anti Zionism.The Jew hatred we are currently experiencing on our streets, in our universities and institutions is second to none in my lifetime and can only be compared to Germany almost a century ago when my mother was forced to leave. Why, today, should my fellow Jews, including members of my own family, be afraid to wear a Star of David in a British street'?'Hamas caused this war'You are quite right on all counts.I can see no reason why suddenly Palestinians are now so pitied, admired and sympathised with especially so as it was only last October they attempted to reignite genocide against the Jews.What is going on in our heads especially amongst the young ?One theory I have read is that it is because this young generation have so little to fear that they have to take on the burden of oppression that others claim to bear.It is a frightening example of how political sympathies can change so quickly and the 'bad' attacker can morph into the 'good' victim.Have we forgotten how many of our citizens have been killed over recent years by the Palestinians' fellow religionists ?And have we forgotten how the Jews were hounded and six million were eliminated by the Germans in the '30s (as well of course for millennia before).I always prided myself that the British were not like that.But what counts as British these days !   

John Hawkes ● 27d

Mr Rose'Ed Robinson is well informed but I am afraid that I don't understand what good points he made in his post'.Neither did I so thanks for trying to decipher his sometimes cryptic messages and as usual counter them with calm rationality.

John Hawkes ● 27d

Ms Whitehead'To quote one salient point:"Do they (Israel) not see that Hamas is an ideology that cannot be eliminated by force of arms alone and that the razing of Gaza has proved a more potent recruiting sergeant than a thousand madrassas?"'I am not sure why the opinions of a very good table tennis player should be any more valid or pertinent than yours, mine or even Mr Carter.However I would be intrigued to know firstly how he thinks Israel should respond to attacks upon it.Secondly how he thinks the racist ideology of Hamas should be eliminated, assuming he does.And thirdly and whether you agree with him.

John Hawkes ● 27d

Mr Carter'With Hawkes' unpleasant bullying (with his smears that anyone who doesn't support Israel is a Hamas supporter)'"Calm down dear, calm down" !I have never made this claim though if the cap fits....But what I do believe is that many of those who criticise Israel do in fact support Hamas, a proscribed terrorist organisation.And those critics that would take affront at being so accused, come close to showing implicit support by parroting Hamas' claims and beliefs in their own enthusiasm to decry Israel's actions and condone those of the Palestinians. They also choose to ignore the fact that Hamas on 7th October 2023 invaded Israel and murdered, raped, sexually assaulted and kidnapped women and children and then streamed videos of the attacks online !Israel thus found itself in an existential battle to protect both its right to exist as a state and also prevent the annihilation of its Jewish citizens; the destruction of Israel and genocide of its Jews both being keystone points in the Hamas Charter which I am sure you have read.Now you might say that Hamas is not representative of Palestinians or Palestinian opinion even though it claims to be.However MSN reports polls where c.70% of Palestinians do deny the right of Israel to exist, and when asked about the atrocities, only 7% of Palestinians said that they believed it.'A Palestinian poll revealed strong support for Hamas’ attack on Israel, with most Palestinians denying war crimes by Hamas despite evidence'.(Palestinians Overwhelmingly Support Hamas’ Terror Attacks, But Deny Hamas’ War Crimes (msn.com))These figures are supported by polls by Reuters.'JERUSALEM, Dec 13 (Reuters) - Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found'.(Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises | Reuters)Yet still some would have it that Israelis are wicked colonial oppressors and Palestinians poor, benighted, downtrodden victims.I wonder if such disturbing figures represent the beliefs and attitudes on Palestinians in the UK and their ethnic British fellow travellers ?

John Hawkes ● 27d

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68735869

Philippa Bond ● 28d

Ed's points are interesting in that they demonstrate the overall holistic influences of these events on the development of this area. I may not agree in detail on every points of his, plus there are events such as the arbitrary separation of these lands between British and French protectorates that paid little sensitivity to local groupings and were primarily aimed at protecting oil interests and the wealth of the colonial nations; further, some events such as the starving of civilians may not be intentional but are the result of other ill conceived actions such as the restriction of supply lines because of crossing point closures or slow search procedures, or the necessary withdrawal of western aid staff for their safety because of "mistaken" lethal attacks.Anyway, it's another good example of why the binary black and white model is too simplistic. As an atheist I can't buy into the absolutist "good" versus "evil" model as people have various motivations and views; I might consider Trump or Farage evil, others might nominate a Corbyn as such! I won't go down the route of lets get rid of religion; I'm sure without it humans would manufacturer a different set of groupings to use as a basis for disagreements and war, and, anyway, as I've said elsewhere religion gets hijacked by extremists for their own uses. I wouldn't ignore the fact that religion has some good ideas: the ten commandments set a reasonable foundation of rules for society; Christianity adds some good principles - love thy neighbour, turn the other cheek, the love of money is the root of all evil (or bad actions!); Quakers have a good attitude towards peaceful coexistence; Buddhist mindfulness and vegetarian/veganism has much to offer the world ... but I can't understand how two Orthodox Christian churches can worship the same God and saviour and support blasting hell out of each other; shouldn't they attempt to be the peacemakers?Additionally, I think it was Lucille raised an interesting question: where were the humanitarian support groups when Hamas inflicted their atrocity on Israelis on 7th October? A resonable point but, firstly, I don't believe any such groups are on the ground in Israel (I'm prepared to be corrected if others know better); secondly, my perception is that Israeli medical services, civil defence and support groups are probably as good if not superior to any European or UN ones - aside from also being local; and, thirdly, is it likely that Israeli intelligence, IDF or forensic authorities would have welcomed any external assistance from the UN or other agencies - don't they like to manage these incidents themselves?

Michael Ixer ● 28d

Ed Robinson is well informed but I am afraid that I don't understand what good points he made in his post.Where is the evidence that the UK is providing 'boots on the ground'?It's true that over 70 years ago Britain was complicit in the overthrow of the elected prime minister of Iran, Mohammad Mosaddegh, but why is it important that we 'remember' this? What has this reprehensible plot got to do with the conflict in Gaza?  There have been controls on the flow of food into Gaza, mainly to prevent Hamas from stealing the food. But where is the evidence that Israel is deliberately 'starving the population'? I read on the BBC News site that Israel has just agreed to open two new routes for humanitarian aid.The UK and Israel need to be 'held to account', but not Iran, apparently, though it has been financing Hamas and the military wing of Hezbollah, both regarded as terrorist organisation by the UK and the EU.The families of the hostages understandably want a deal at any price in order to recover their loved ones, but I suspect that the majority of Israelis support the reluctance of the government to agree to any deal that would leave Hamas in control of Gaza, ready to regroup and strike again.The Hannibal Directive was a secret order by the IDF to prevent the abduction of their soldiers at any cost, even if  it  meant harming the soldiers. The intention was to deter kidnapping since the terrorists would know that the presence of hostages would not prevent them being targeted. This order was revoked in 2016, but it has been alleged that the IDF fired on some of the trucks taking hostages away on October 7. This allegation has caused considerable controversy in Israel. But it should go without saying that the principal risk to Israeli citizens is not the IDF but Hamas.

Steven Rose ● 28d

Thank you for drawing our attention to Matthew Syed's excellent and balanced article in The Sunday Times. To quote one salient point:"Do they (Israel) not see that Hamas is an ideology that cannot be eliminated by force of arms alone and that the razing of Gaza has proved a more potent recruiting sergeant than a thousand madrassas?"

Caroline Whitehead ● 28d

Thank you so much for your post Katrina.I have read half of the article and it is gut wrenching. So much destruction, decimation and sadness.I'll comment again once I have read the whole article.Thank you once again!

Ivonne Holliday ● 28d

Thank you Mr Hawkes.

Lucille Grant ● 28d

Yes, some good points from Ed..

Michael Ixer ● 28d

Good article by Jeremy Bowen on BBC News website today should anyone care for a long read.

Katrina Black ● 28d

Ed, I entirely agree with your excellent post.Nick

Nicholas Evans ● 28d

Mr Hawkes, if only the world was a clear binary black and white life would be much easier. Sadly, to think that life is that clear seems naive to me, in reality there are often an infinite shades of grey between the binary positions. In your post you seem to be using the term Hamas and Palestinian interchangeably; I doubt all Palestinians really agree with Hamas anymore than many Israelis agree with the extremist who suggested the use of nuclear weapons might be a possibility. Of course, the danger with all religions is that extremists hijack them to indoctrinate views on others from an early age; how many Palestinian children killed and maimed in the current conflict would have been given the information to form a balanced view of the conflict?It's also unfortunate many many religions are very prescriptive and can't accept the need to change. By way of example, many religions and sects still seem to find it unacceptable that some individuals don't fit the binary, heterosexual model of gender when there appears to be evidence that the gender spectrum isn't a choice but is probably determined by a combination of genes, hormones, epigenetics and other environmental factors.If, as you say, this history goes back to biblical times it seems to me that there's a lot of scope for different interpretations on the 'grey scale', particular as there may be scope for translation errors and analysis of older ones. Perhaps the Balfour agreement onwards is a better guide?Of course it's good that Israel has grasped its opportunities and is a thriving nation. I suspect it has had the benefit of some investment from the USA and possibly elsewhere, and of immigrants from Europe that are well educated while my understanding is many Palestinians have been forced into and languished in refugee camps at times with little opportunity to exercise their skills - possibly why many have sought asylum in countries like the UK to expand their opportunities, and perhaps why so many are here to demonstrate? Others may have more evidence of whether that's accurate or not?Some other middle eastern countries are investing their oil money in the future: the UAE has its successful Hope Mars orbiter mission (with a team including a female lead scientist) and has an emerging innovative cyber security sector - collaboration with western organisations has, of course, assisted with these. Not necessarily to our liking but Iran has developed a defence industry (including reliable drones), has significant expertise in cyber warfare and has made strides in developing nuclear technology (possibly with some external help). Saudi Arabia is investing heavily on sports and the facilities to support them. So we need to be careful with underestimating some of these countries who may have a different perspective to us on where the shades of grey sit between the black and white boundaries. The US or UK isn't going to influence Hamas or Iran directly but some of their neighbours who want to become part of and influence the world power order and economy might just see it in their own interests to try and modify Hamas’s attitudes - and I know that will be difficult because of their own differences on the grey spectrum besides their differences to ours :-(

Michael Ixer ● 28d

Mr RoseYet more of your excellent passionate yet 'dispassionate' but always informative analysis of the situation in the Middle East.Keep it up even if it might cause some to fume as they try to dispute what you say.I hope you don't mind but I would like to add my 'two 'penneth' to what you have said. To put all the discussions about Israel and Palestine in an historical context, it should not be forgotten that there have been Jews living in the region for millennia alongside Arabs.People should read the Bible !The 'Two State Solution' has been on the agenda at least since the Balfour Declaration of 1917 "favouring the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.....it being clearly understood that nothing be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine".Emir Faisal, son of Sherif Hussein leader of the Arab revolt against the occupying Turks, signed an agreement with Chaim Weizmann during the 1919 Peace Conference supporting the Declaration and acknowledging the 'kinship and bonds' between Arabs and Jews.The international community accepted the Declaration which specifically referred to "the historical connections of the Jewish people with Palestine" and included it in terms of the British Mandate for the region which was formalised by the fifty-two governments at the League of Nations in 1922.Ironically Churchill in 1921 took four-fifths of Palestine, 35,000 square miles, to create a new Arab entity Transjordan and by 1949 Britain allocated 87,000 acres of the 187,000 cultivatable land to the Arabs and 4,250 to the Jews.In 1922 the Jewish population in Palestine was 84,000 and the Arab 643,000.In 1939 the British also said Jewish immigration into Palestine would be limited to 75,000 during the next 5 years and then cease.Arab migration would be unrestricted.The Arabs rejected these terms.In 1937 the Peel Commission, following the ending of the British Mandate in Palestine offered the Jews 15% of Western Palestine and the Arabs independence in the rest.This was rejected by the Arabs.In 1941, the Mufti of Jerusalem left Palestine to meet with Hitler.He wanted the Nazis to extend their anti-Jewish program to the Arab world.Hitler said the time was not yet right but the Mufti thanked him for his sympathy to the Palestinian cause and saying the Arabs were Germany's natural friends.Then the UN set up a Special Commission on Palestine in 1947 which recommended the establishment of two separate states - one Jewish and one Arab.Jews welcomed the compromise.The Arabs rejected it wanting a unitary Arab state and not wanting to be seen recognising Israel.And the interagency and antagonism of the Arabs towards Israel continues to this day.Even though the Arabs govern Gaza and the West Bank.I think it is time we get away from the simplistic view that Israel is and always has been the colonial oppressor of poor little, friendless Palestine and realise it's more complex than that.

John Hawkes ● 28d

Ms Grant'Of  course I don't consider the 7 +  deaths as collateral damage Ivonne! That is an obtuse observation.But I do consider that Hamas are the people to blame for the deaths of all civilians in this war just as I consider the Russians to be to blame for the thousands of civilian deaths in Ukraine. Those who start a war are ultimately the ones who bear the guilt.''Obtuse' - annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.A perfect summing up of both post and poster !And you are spot on in your equating Hamas and the Russians, the aggressive actions of both having resulted in countless deaths.Then of course both are fascist organisations where slaughter of your opponents is a way of gaining political power in the knowledge that you will fail to do so by democratic means.And - 'Those who start a war are ultimately the ones who bear the guilt' is so, so true.Refreshing to read as a counter to the many relativist comments being posted.

John Hawkes ● 28d

Ms Holliday'I was also horrified when the Israeli hostages, bearing white flags, were killed by the Israeli forces'. Please explain.

John Hawkes ● 28d

Lucille,It is not obtuse.  I was replying to your comment:"Ivonne ' the Killing of 7 aid workers is just as unforgivable as Hamas atrocities.'You cannot be serious. Over 1200 civilians butchered,raped and maimed versus 7 ... May God forgive you."You implied that the death of the 7 aid workers was not as important as the death of the 1200 civilians.  As far as I am concerned, they are all important and horrific!Of course Hamas is to blame for the 7 October deaths; I do not think anybody would disagree with that.I was also horrified when the Israeli hostages, bearing white flags, were killed by the Israeli forces.  Do mistakes happen in war?  Absolutely!  Including from the world leader in military training and technology - Israel.  However, the lack of contritions is difficult to digest.I repeat myself, I am NOT PRO HAMAS neither am I ANTI ISRAEL OR ANTISEMITIC.  Do you think this is clear enough!I do agree I do not like Netanyahu; that is one person not a country or a religion.  I seem to remember an exchange of posts we had last year or the one before when I said I did not agree with Netanyahu's policy if agreeing to extra settlements in the West Bank.  I may be wrong, but I think you agree with me on the latter.

Ivonne Holliday ● 28d

Getting back to the thread topic:The UK is not a bystander in these events but is providing arms, intelligence and probably boots on the ground too.If we were Iran (which the UK over threw a demonicratic democracy in the 50's for it's oil - let's not forget) then we would also be considered party to the conflict.We need to hold our government/institutions to account. Unfortunately we can't just blame these deaths just on Israel. It's rather illogical to agree to starve a population to death and then send those with pure hearts after months into danger to feed them.States be it the UK or Israel need to be held to account. Unfortunately the UK has a poor record with Knighthoods being withheld for a few years considered as sufficient punishment for war crimes. How can we expect Israel to be better when such a poor example is set?The families of the Israeli hostages have been protesting since October 7th. They are anything but pro-Homas or anti-Israeli. Israeli newspapers seem to cover these issues much better than the UK mediaLastly all lives are unique sacred and immeasurably and a countries first principle should be to protect it's citizens. The Hannibal Directive means, although slim odds, that unfortunately Jews are not necessarily safe even in Israel.

Ed Robinson ● 28d

I've finally had it with this endless, circular discussion - as if anyone in the real world beyond Putney, or even in it, will be moved by it. With Hawkes' unpleasant bullying (with his smears that anyone who doesn't support Israel is a Hamas supporter) and Steven Rose's repeated, recycled  essays, further repeating of this stuff is pointless. And the latest essay starts with this: "This [supposed antipathy towards Israel] takes two forms. One is to blame Israel for the conflict in Gaza. The other is to argue that the Israelis are just as bad as Hamas." To save anyone having to read further, it's simply necessary to state than these are straw man arguments and  *neither* of them is true.Finally, I recommend Matthew Syed's finely balanced article in the Sunday Times today: it's at https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/like-ali-with-foreman-hamas-has-rope-a-doped-israel-5g8km095b and is far more eloquent than anything I could write.

Richard Carter ● 28d

Ms Grant'Easy answer Mr Hawkes. Absolutely none and no Red Cross has visited  a single Israeli hostage since 7 October. While  others  bandy the words war crime loosely against the Jewish state, surely this is also a war crime? Wherefore art thou Geneva Convention?'Or you might add 'what of the UN' ?To be fair to it, on 7th October 2023, the day of the Hamas invasion of Israel - 'The UN Secretary-General condemned “in the strongest terms” the attack by Hamas against Israeli towns, UN Spokesperson Stéphane Dujarric said'.Note however, this was NOT a UN resolution, just a press release by a UN official.On 26th October 2023 -'The United Nations General Assembly on Friday adopted a resolution calling for an “immediate, durable and sustained humanitarian truce” between Israeli forces and Hamas militants in Gaza. It also demands “continuous, sufficient and unhindered” provision of lifesaving supplies and services for civilians trapped inside the enclave, as news reports suggest Israel has expanded ground operations and intensified its bombing campaign.It was proposed by Jordan and backed by over 45 Member States'.NOTE - NO condemnation of the Hamas attack, and by implication, 'both sides are equally to blame'.And more revealing -'An amendment, proposed by Canada and backed by over 35 Member States, including the US, seeking an explicit condemnation of Hamas, DID NOT PASS (my emphasis), failing to get two-thirds support'.Israel's response was perhaps justifiably vitriolic.'Gilad Erdan, Ambassador of Israel to the UN, said in response to the resolution passing that “today is a day that will go down in infamy”."We have all witnessed that the UN holds not even one ounce of legitimacy,” he said. “The UN is committed to ensuring further atrocity. According to the family of nations, Israel has no right to defend itself.”There are no talks or discussions to be held with Hamas, he said, adding that Israel will not sit idly by to let them commit atrocities again. The resolution does not mention Hamas once, as if the war started on its own.“What is going on here?” he asked, questioning whether the goal was to tie Israel’s hands. “The only way to destroy Hamas is to root them out. Why are you not holding Hamas accountable?”“We know there is no humanitarian crisis in accordance with international humanitarian law,” he said, noting that every statistic comes from Hamas about information about Gaza.Anyone interested in preventing violence should call on Hamas to lay down their arms, turn themselves in and return all hostages, he said.“If this were to happen, the war would end immediately,” he said. “This is a dark day for the UN and mankind. Israel will defend itself and will do what must be done to eradicate Hamas’ capabilities and bring the hostages home.”

John Hawkes ● 28d

There seems to be a lot of antipathy towards Israel on the Forum. This takes two forms. One is to blame Israel for the conflict in Gaza. The other is to argue that the Israelis are just as bad as Hamas. Various arguments have been put forward to promote these views, some half true, some false.The first is that the Jews occupied Palestinian land in 1948 and expelled its Arab population. This one-sided historical account omits to mention that the UN voted to partition Palestine between the Jews and the Arabs in 1947. The Jews accepted the partition plan but the Arabs rejected it. As a result, when Israel declared its independence in May 1948, it was simultaneously attacked by all its Arab neighbours whose stated aim was to drive the Jews into the sea. It is true that in the course of the ensuing war hundreds of thousands of Palestinians left or were forced to leave their land. But hundreds of thousands of Jews also left or were forced to leave their homes in North Africa and the Middle East. The descendants of these Arabic speaking Jews now constitute the majority of the Jewish population of Israel.Another argument is to blame the conflict on the presence of Jewish settlements and Israeli security forces on the West Bank. I think there are two points to be made about this. The most important is that Hamas have not been firing rockets into Israel for the past 20 years or more, nor did they mount their appalling attack on October 7, in order to achieve a Palestinian state on the West Bank. Their aim is to destroy Israel, exterminate its Jewish population and create a caliphate on what they consider to be Muslim lands. As to the settlements, I  personally think their construction was a mistake and would like to seem them dismantled. But it should be remembered that at Camp David in 2000 Israel offered the Palestinians sovereignty over  around 92% of the West Bank in return for an end to the intifada. The Palestinians rejected the offer, mainly because they also demanded the right of Palestinian refugees and their descendants, who by then numbered 4 million, to return Israel. Though Ehud Barak for the Israeli side was willing to allow up to 100 000 Palestinians to return in order to reunite families and for Israel to help with the compensation for those who had lost property in 1948, he was not prepared to accept a general right of return which which would alter the character of the Jewish state. The fear that the Palestinians still wish to destroy Israel as a Jewish homeland is why the majority of Israelis today fear the creation of a Palestinian state on the West Bank. As to attempts to claim that Israel is just as bad as Hamas, various comments have been made. One is the outrageous and offensive smear that the Israelis are behaving like Nazis, with the implication that they are carrying out a genocide.Another is that the Israelis treat Gaza as 'free-fire' zone, when in fact they have tried as far as possible to reduce civilian casualties, though tragically many civilians have died.A further ploy is  to focus on statements by extremists on the Israeli side, such as the right wing politician Itamar Ben-Gvir or the fanatical settler Daniella Weiss, to claim that Israel's 'agenda' is to ethnically cleanse Gaza and repopulate it with Jewish settlers. This is not the policy of Netanyahu's government.Lastly there is the focus on admittedly unacceptable behaviour  by the Israelis, whether settler violence, or the incident where they shot hostages by mistake or the recent tragedy regarding the  WCK aid workers. As regards this last incident, I was surprised by the eagerness of some contributors to conclude that it was a deliberate act of malice when the most likely explanation was that it was a ghastly error, caused by gross incompetence and indiscipline, as has now been revealed. In any case none of this, as Lucille has said, can possibly be compared with the rape, torture, mutilation and murder seen on October 7.And I would still like to know how else the Israelis should act in order to remove the threat from Hamas.

Steven Rose ● 28d

Of  course I don't consider the 7 +  deaths as collateral damage Ivonne! That is an obtuse observation.But I do consider that Hamas are the people to blame for the deaths of all civilians in this war just as I consider the Russians to be to blame for the thousands of civilian deaths in Ukraine. Those who start a war are ultimately the ones who bear the guilt.

Lucille Grant ● 28d

More eloquent writers both on  this forum and in MSM have written articles galore, most recently since the seven aid workers died as a result of the IDF's tragic mistake. I include  Jewish and non Jewish writers here. Matthew Parris wrote an interesting piece in yesterday's Times when he stated that israel was doing exactly what Hamas wanted and had lost friends galore as a result. However, I still don't understand why Israelis/Jews have to be seen as being the better person than any other country at war unless of course it's simply because we are 'the other' ie Jewish.Every war has its casualties, its mistakes and its horrors but Jewish people need Israel to exist. More so now than ever, in view of the rampant antisemitism that has been unleashed upon us in the western world since 7 October. I have no truck with Netanyahu or his even worse Right Wing cohorts. Hamas caused this war. They do not care how many lives are lost or who suffers (and will continue to suffer even when the fighting ends.)As Jews we have so many enemies crawling triumphantly out of the woodwork (and sadly I see some on this forum) behind the facade of anti Zionism. The Jew hatred we are currently experiencing on our streets, in our universities and institutions is second to none in my lifetime and can only be compared to Germany almost a century ago when my mother was forced to leave. Why, today, should my fellow Jews, including members of my own family, be afraid to wear a Star of David in a British street?    Finally, where do we go to escape antisemitism if Israel does not exist?

Lucille Grant ● 28d

Easy answer Mr Hawkes. Absolutely none and no Red Cross has visited  a single Israeli hostage since 7 October. While  others  bandy the words war crime loosely against the Jewish state, surely this is also a war crime? Wherefore art thou Geneva Convention?

Lucille Grant ● 28d

Ms Holliday'Humanity means that human suffering must be addressed wherever it is found with particular attention to the most vulnerable'.Which aid agencies rushed in to support the attacks and subsequent murder, rape, sexual assault and kidnapping of Jews by the Palestinian armed wing Hamas, at Be'eri, Kfar Aza, and Nir Oz, and at the Nova music festival ?

John Hawkes ● 28d

Ms Grant'You cannot be serious. Over 1200 civilians butchered,raped and maimed versus 7 ...'Oh yes they are I'm afraid.There are many on this Forum that have a pathological hatred for the state of Israel and the Jews that live there.Thus they would equate a murderous invasion that killed, raped, sexually assaulted and kidnapped thousands of women and children with an as yet not fully investigated and explained attack on an aid convoy of 7.  Anyone who defends Israel and its Jews, even if they acknowledge the failings and political errors made on occasion by its politicians and the small number of its religiously extremist citizens, is a racially motivated supporter of child killing. The Palestinian Arabs of course are faultless, peace loving and have every right on their side.I would ask Palestine supporters on this Forum to come clean and declare that the state of Israel has the right to exist and its Jewish (as well as Arab) citizens should be free to live there in peace.If they do not believe this, what do they believe and how do they think the situation can be resolved ?Finally, it will be interesting to see what stance the anti-Israel supporters take when the mad Mullahs of Iran flex their god-given muscles.

John Hawkes ● 28d

Lucille,The core of humanitarian actions/aid lies the principles of humanity, impartiality, neutrality and independence.  Humanity means that human suffering must be addressed wherever it is found with particular attention to the most vulnerable.This means they are not military and not paramilitary.  Also, the 7 aid workers were travelling in clearly marked vehicles on a coastal road with prior authorization issued by the Israeli military.If the volume of deaths is what worries you the most, it should be 7 vs 1200 vs 30000. So you consider that the 7 and the 30000 are just collateral damage while the only true victims are the 1200?My goodness, May God forgive you too!

Ivonne Holliday ● 28d

Ms Bond'It seems Israel just ploughs on ahead with its own agenda'.What is this agenda ?

John Hawkes ● 28d

Carter'Netanyahu's smirking non-apology apology for the IDF's killing of 7 aid workers in Gaza (see it on BBC News at 10 last night, about 3:50 in'This is purely a subjective comment.No one can challenge how you choose to perceive it.As regards the nature of the attack by the IDF, this is being reviewed and investigated by Israel and a number of senior officers have already been dismissed and are potentially liable to criminal prosecution.As doubtless you know but choose to ignore.I find it revealing that you have studied in detail what is claimed by the Palestinians regarding this attack as well as Israel's response.Please point me to the justification and explanation by the Palestinians for the Hamas invasion of Israel on 7th October 2023 and the murder, rape, sexual assault and kidnapping of women and children these Arabs perpetrated on Jews.I assume you will take their word for what they say.

John Hawkes ● 28d

Ivonne ' the Killing of 7 aid workers is just as unforgivable as Hamas atrocities.'You cannot be serious. Over 1200 civilians butchered,raped and maimed versus 7 ... May God forgive you.

Lucille Grant ● 29d

"It seems Israel just ploughs on ahead with its own agenda" That's it, precisely.

Alexander MacLeod ● 29d

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/03/un-human-rights-chief-deplores-new-moves-expand-israeli-settlements-occupiedAnd not just building new Israeli settlements on the West Bank... "Since 7 October, 592 people, including 282 children, have been displaced in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, after their homes were demolished due to the lack of Israeli-issued building permits, which are almost impossible to obtain".It seems Israel just ploughs on ahead with its own agenda.

Philippa Bond ● 29d

And yet, despite the endless tedious essays, not one of the Israel-can-do-no-wrong brigade can bring themselves to reflect on Netanyahu's "apology" that I posted at the very beginning of this thread, or on the credible reports that the IDF has turned Gaza into a free-fire zone.

Richard Carter ● 29d

Mr Rose'It’s all very well adopting a position of judicious neutrality but sometimes you have to pick a side. Israeli is a democracy in which its Arab minority, making up 20% of the population, enjoy full civil rights. Hamas is an Islamist organisation which, enjoying considerable popular support, has gained control of a territory with the avowed aim of destroying Israel and exterminating its Jewish population'.You might also have said that there are Arabs that are Parliamentarians in the Israeli Knesset.Hence Israel is a multi-racial and multi-ethnic state which is not the case of those that surround and attack it.Your point about making a choice goes to the heart of the matter.One must choose between 'good' - to me what describes, with limitations, the beliefs, ambitions, actions and behaviour of Israel and 'bad' - those of the Palestinians who wish to destroy Israel and annihilate the Jews.It seems that it is just you and me on this Forum that are both willing, albeit not unequivocally to give any support to Israel in the situation it finds itself in and also to point out and criticise the actions and nature of the Palestinians that are attacking it.I have to confess I do not understand the attraction some have for the Palestinians who seem happier in warfare than in turning the land they hold into something ordered and prosperous.I have no doubt however that attacks on Israel are very often driven by antisemitic jealousy.

John Hawkes ● 29d

I  agree with the sentiments expressed by John Hawkes. I know that some contributors to the Forum  take the view that it is perfectly possible to support the demonstrations against Israel  while still condemning Hamas’ attack on October 7. It’s all very well adopting a position of judicious neutrality but sometimes you have to pick a side. Israeli is a democracy in which its Arab minority, making up 20% of the population, enjoy full civil rights. Hamas is an Islamist organisation which, enjoying considerable popular support, has gained control of a territory with the avowed aim of destroying Israel and exterminating its Jewish population. That doesn’t mean that Israel is above criticism. But if you condemn Israel’s conduct of the war, I think you need to explain how else Israel should act to remove the threat from Hamas.

Steven Rose ● 29d

Mr Rose'It was South Africa who accused Israel of genocide'.True, and it is good that you point out that its Government is quite capable of taking up whatever political posture that suits its politicians interests at the time..I could not believe what I read about South Africa's claim and almost burst out laughing until the craftiness and hypocrisy of it struck home.It is an obvious case of deflection; calling out others misdeeds to avoid your own being analysed.South Africa; a potentially very wealthy country where 30% of the population are unemployed.It is also crime ridden.'23 Nov 2022 More than 7,000 people were murdered over three months in South Africa, according to new police statistics, which showed a rise in violent crime from the same period last year'.A few years earlier 'South Africa's police minister Bheki Cele has said a surge in murders has turned his country into a place that "borders on a war zone.""Our bottom line is that this situation must reverse," he said.Crime statistics released by the government show there were more than 20,000 murders in 2017, a 7% increase over the previous year.The minister highlighted that this was 57 murders every day.The self-righteous South African President himself seems no angel but good at making money.'Ramaphosa's net worth was estimated at over R6.4 billion ($450 million) as of 2018.[6] He has been criticised for his conduct and involvement in his business interests, including his harsh posture as a Lonmin director towards the Marikana miners' strike in the week ahead of the Marikana massacre.According to the State, the charges include 12 counts of corruption under Preca (Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act) and one of money laundering under Poca (Prevention of Organised Crime Act)On 9 February 2020, it is alleged about US$4 million in cash was stolen from Ramaphosa's Phala Phala game farm in Limpopo, although the exact amount was disputed.[183]Ramaphosa later said the amount was $580,000. In 2022, he was accused of corruption, obstruction of justice, kidnapping and bribing the burglars into silence. After delivery of a report on the matter commissioned by Speaker Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula, the parliament voted on 13 December 2022, 148 for and 214 against impeachment of the president'.'Mapisa-Nqakula herself faces 12 charges of corruption and one for money laundering. She allegedly received R4.5 million kickbacks from a contractor during her tenure as Defence Minister. This was between 2016 and 2019'.And Ramaphosa still tries to deflect criticism of his crimes and misrule by accusing others.You couldn't make it up !

John Hawkes ● 29d

Ms HollidayIsrael, being a country subject to its rule of law ethos, investigated the attack on World Central Kitchen.The results of this inquiry as reported by the BBC -'Two senior Israeli military officers have been sacked after seven aid workers were killed in missile strikes in the Gaza Strip.The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) called the killing of staff from World Central Kitchen (WCK) a "grave accident".Drone operators did not follow rules and thought WCK's cars were carrying Hamas gunmen, its inquiry says.The IDF launched an internal investigation into the deaths after coming under intense international pressure to explain the circumstances.Three commanders have been formally reprimanded for their overall responsibility in the strikes, which the IDF said were carried out in breach of army rules.The IDF said those who carried out the attack could also face criminal prosecution'.Perhaps you could point out to me any reports of the Palestinians and especially their terrorist 'army' Hamas investigating the circumstances regarding their attack on Israel on 7th October 2023 murdering, raping and sexually assulting women and children and still holding many as hostages.Do you personally think they made mistakes or errors of judgement in doing so ?Perhaps more to the point, do you think they do ?Will they 'fess up' ?Of course they don't and wont; they are racist barbarians.I find it sickening that thousands of British people will today choose to march with UK resident Palestinians implicitly supporting their attitudes and beliefs regarding this conflict.

John Hawkes ● 29d

"I mentioned genocide because the letter signed by the former judges and barristers cited the ICJ ‘s view that there is a plausible case of genocide against Israel as a reason to suspend arms sales. Astonishingly the signatories also called on the government to restore funding to UNWRA, an organisation whose operatives actually participated in the massacre of October 7."TWELVE UNWRA workers were implicated as being involved on October 7.  That is 12 out of some 13,000.  Some of the countries who paused funding to UNWRA have now resumed their funding as requested by the UN.

Philippa Bond ● 30d

And this is in the BBC's website. Rolling news at 16.07Our night vision failed to identify aid group logo - IDF says"A spokesperson for the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has recently spoken to our colleagues on the BBC News channel after it was announced that two officers had been fired.Lt Col Peter Lerner describes the strike on a convoy of trucks that killed seven aid workers in Gaza on Monday as an "immense human tragedy". But when put to him that "lethal force" was used on the basis of an "assumption" that Hamas gunmen had boarded the vehicles he says this is incorrect."It wasn't an assumption, it was a visual confirmation of a gunman," he says, before saying there was a "miscalculation" and that "two senior officers - a major and a colonel - have been dismissed from their roles" as a result."We're taking this incident very, very seriously," Lerner goes on, explaining how the situation on the ground shouldn't prevent humanitarian organisations doing their work. "We've clearly failed in this instance," he adds.Pushed to explain how Israel's military technology failed to identify the marked WCK vans, Lerner says night vision "couldn't identify" the NGO's sticker on the roof and it was then thought they were Hamas vehicles."This is, again, another failure that we need to learn from ... so this doesn't happen again in the future," he says."https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-68738452

Ivonne Holliday ● 30d

Steven, I saw this originally on the US website Democracy Now, perhaps the IDF personnel responsible were lazy and relied too much on AI? (Someone whose identity I didn’t catch also just referred to it on BBC TV News. (https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/5/israel_ai)
If true - and I have to stress the "if" as sources aren't traceable - it's of concern not just in regard to the current conflict in Gaza but also future conflicts elsewhere if AI, technology that is still embryonic and not fully developed, is the prime decision maker of who is to be executed (just think of the Horizon IT scandal).However, some of if it might explain the unexpected ratios of civilian male/female/child v Hamas male deaths discussed a while ago and approximates to one suggestion I made about Hamas members being targeted in their family homes being a possible explanation.
https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/
972 magazine is a left wing journal but I can't see any evidence of it promoting conspiracy theories, although its sources on this are obviously attributed only to "intelligence sources"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%2B972_MagazineRegarding the judges and genocide, they presumably are prepared to accept the ICJ ruling on the case presented by SA. SA may have a different view and allegiancies on this to western nations but my understanding is the ICJ judges come from a range of countries and the court didn’t say genocide had been committed just that certain actions should be taken to be sure of avoiding it?

Michael Ixer ● 30d

Hello Steven,Regarding the thread entitled:  "Cost of policing pro-Palestine marches in London", in a message you posted on 27 March 2024 you mentioned a poll carried out by YouGov.  This is just to confirm my reply to you of 28 March 2024 and I  copy-paste below the what YouGov state in their polls:"These poll results show what Chat members think in real time. They are not representative of public opinion."Returning to this thread, indeed the strike on the aid convoy was beyond despicable.  There is a possibility that those operating the drones were not aware of the information supplied by WCK to IDF - I find that difficult to believe.I still maintain that I can no longer believe that everytime the IDF attack infrastructure with civilians present or aid convoys is because Hamas is hiding behind them. It seems to me more of an excuse than a reason.  Reading about Netanyahu's statement, there is no word or feeling, sorrow or remorse on the act, it is not a contrite statement. Please, let me VERY clear once again.  I do NOT support Hamas by any stretch of the imagination.  That does not mean that I find Netanyahu and the IDF acts as defensive by default.

Ivonne Holliday ● 30d

Hi MichaelI mentioned genocide because the letter signed by the former judges and barristers cited the ICJ ‘s view that there is a plausible case of genocide against Israel as a reason to suspend arms sales. Astonishingly the signatories also called on the government to restore funding to UNWRA, an organisation whose operatives actually participated in the massacre of October 7.It was South Africa who accused Israel of genocide. So it would be interesting to know why the humanitarian activists who run that country did not also make an accusation of the same kind against Russia at the ICJ. Perhaps the 77 billion rand (5 billion dollars) that South Africa have invested in Russia may have something to do with it. South Africa withdrew its initial criticism of the Russian invasion of Ukraine and abstained on the vote at the UN calling on Russia to withdraw its troops.The investigation held by the IDF into the dreadful attack on the aid workers has revealed gross incompetence and indiscipline by the Israeli military rather than deliberate murder. It appears that an armed Hamas militant left the food store in a vehicle, presumably in an attempt to steal food, and the Israelis assumed that three other vehicles leaving the store were also being driven away by Hamas. At night the markings on the WCK vehicles were not visible. And most important of all, the account which the WCK gave of their movements was not filtered down to the people operating the drones. Even so the Israelis should not have targeted vehicles which offered no threat when they had no way of knowing who was inside them. So I am glad that those responsible have been dismissed or reprimanded. Hopefully the Israelis will now tighten their rules of engagement and ensure the safety of aid workers.

Steven Rose ● 30d

Well, Steven, one could take the view that an important part of judges's functions is to. guide juries on the law, admissible versus inadmissible evidence and even what a verdict ought to be based on those. (Of course it is guidance and sometimes juries do reject it.) Based on that one could take the view these judges are guiding the government's path in a similar way. One should also consider that judges can also overturn verdicts if they considerthem unsafe. I'd agree Russia has probably commited war crimes in Ukraine and I'm sure there will be pressure to hold some individuals to account if the ICJ can get access to them (as happened in the Balkan conflicts). However, Russia is not an ally of the US, UK et al whereas Israel is, the difference being that if international law is being broken by Russia there's no complicity in terms of the US, UK etc being arms suppliers. You'll notice I've been careful not to use the term genocide as I don't have access to evidence to support that so I'm unclear why you introducedthat in your response to me, but given the harder line that's being taken by some of Israeli's allies such as the US my guess would be they have some intelligence that concerns them but, of course, it could just be the poor PR. Netanyahu's attitude certainly seems to have changed since his recent discussion with Biden (although I suppose cynics might say sadly that's because a higher value is give to the lives of foreign aid workers from Israel's allies than to Palestinian civilians). Interesting that some IDF senior staff have now been sacked or disciplined over the incident; it will be interesting to see the reason and details of why - was it individuals' failues, or poor strategies or rules of engagements,

Michael Ixer ● 30d

"What I will concede is that the actions and words of Netanyahu do his country no favours.This is why Israel is losing the PR battle for world opinion when Israel's cause is so just."I think we can agree on that, so let's leave it there and end this pointless to and fro

Richard Carter ● 30d

Carter'conflates Hamas's strategy (which is appalling) with its capacity to carry it out (which is nil)'.Do you mean strategy or mission ?Its mission is defined in its Charter; the obliteration of Israel and the annihilation of the Jews that live there.You do know this I assume ?As for its capacity to carry it out; well it made a good start on 7th October 2023.A moral and military 'free-fire' zone. But you are right it has a nil chance of achieving its mission because militarily Israel's IDF is so superior to Hamas.Just as Israel is so superior to its Arab neighbours in all areas; politically, economically and socially, though not so much terrorism..Hence why so many Arabs are citizens of Israel and some members of the Knesset.Hamas is nothing more than a gang of Islamist misogynistic psychopaths who like nothing more than merging into the Gazan community, creeping out to commit murder, rape, sexual assault and hostage taking before retreating into their Gazan tunnels.But what I find disturbing if not disgusting is that many like you use large dollops of 'whataboutery' to equate the acts of warfare carried out by both parties to this conflict.Attack by Hamas and defence by Israel.  I will be no apologist for Israel's actions in the fog of war if they are proved on consideration to be 'illegal'.Though which members of the world community of nations has a record on social justice and the rule of law to make such a judgement I wonder.And what is legal when a country is struggling for its very survival ?Perhaps we should review what Churchill and Stalin did in WWII when faced with a gang of racist fascists similar to Hamas.What I will concede is that the actions and words of Netanyahu do his country no favours.This is why Israel is losing the PR battle for world opinion when Israel's cause is so just.It also gives the likes of you and other Palestinian apologists increasing public support for what is an obnoxious cause. 

John Hawkes ● 30d

"personalise and emotionalise"? Where? Perhaps you'd like to elucidate.As for not engaging in the question of what Israel should do in response to Hamas's genocide strategy, I don't believe it's a meaningful question because, as always from the Israel apologists, it confuses and conflates Hamas's strategy (which is appalling) with its capacity to carry it out (which is nil). But, in so doing, it's used to justify any military action by the IDF - which, according to credible reports, includes treating Gaza as a free-fire zone.

Richard Carter ● 30d

Well said Steven.Richard - as always an attempt to personalise and emotionalise rather than put forward a cogent argument as Steven repeatedly does.  Israel is far from faultless but you never engage in the real point  - what should Israel do in response to Hamas genocide strategy?l am not an Israeli apologist but when hostages are still being held what chance is there of peace.

Robert Wheeler ● 30d

Michael, the situation in Gaza is not a question of law but of fact. I am sure the learned judges and barristers know the law. The question is whether Israel is actually in breach of the law. On that point I don't think they have a better understanding than any other observer. Matters of fact in this country are decided by juries, not judges or lawyers.The UN defined genocide as 'acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group'. I don't think the evidence supports this monstrous charge against Israel. Unlike Hamas, whose genocidal aims are written into their constitution, Israel has not attempted to exterminate the Palestinians. On the contrary the Israelis have taken unprecedented steps to avoid civilian casualties as far as possible when fighting an enemy who use civilians as human shields. The IDF have made thousands of phone calls and sent out thousands of text messages to warn the local population of impending attacks. Tragically many civilians have been killed and injured, but the ratio of civilian to military casualties is far less than in recent counter-insurgency operations of a similar kind. I don't think, for example, that the American led coalition, including the UK, sent out too many text messages when they killed an estimated 6000 civilians in Syria and Iraq in 2017 after ISIS moved into densely populated urban areas. Two wrongs don't make a right, of course, but justice has to be even-handed. Israel is judged by standards that are not applied to other countries. Just to take the most obvious example, how come the ICJ are not considering a case of genocide against Russia given that over 10 000 civilians have been killed in Ukraine?   

Steven Rose ● 31d

Inevitably, the usual deflection and misdirection from the usual Israel apologists ("It's all Hamas's fault") and the tired, endlessly-repeated smear from Hawkes ("implicitly excusing the acts of terror perpetrated by the Palestinians")?Of course, not one of them addressed the original point of this thread, which was Netanyahu's "apology" for the killing of 7 aid workers in Gaza. To help you out, here's a link to it; the relevant part is about 3:50 in: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001xy2x/bbc-news-at-ten-02042024.

Richard Carter ● 31d

Israel occupies and controls the area so why is it so difficult for Israel to control its military operations so that those who have informed the IDF of their movements are not targeted and destroyed and for the aid agencies to get food safely into the area?  There are so many more reports of malnutrition now and the lack of the availability of food from the aid agencies. It is just looking like a re-run of the 1947 ethnic cleansing.

Philippa Bond ● 31d

So, Steven,  your knowledge of international law is better than 600 lawyers? I'm impressed, would you like to publish your legal qualifications on this site?Given that US intelligence managed to predict the concert hall attack by ISIS in Russia I suspect the US criticism of the heavy "collateral" deaths in Gaza is based on US surveillance of possible breaches of international law by he IDF?Obviously, no one can be sure at the moment, we have to wait for history to judge ... but definitely a bad move by the IDF to target an easily identifiable convoy of US, UK, and other personnel from allies; I bet they are sorry about all the adverse publicity 😐 Sorry, I'm old and cynical. 

Michael Ixer ● 31d

The strike on the aid convoy would indeed  be a despicable act if the intention was to kill aid workers. But what motive would the Israelis have to carry out a deliberate attack on a humanitarian agency with whom they have been cooperating for some time? A likely explanation for the tragedy is that those operating the drones were not aware of the information supplied by the WCK and  believed that Hamas had stolen the vehicles in order to make off with the food. This would still not excuse the conduct of the Israeli military, which at the very least was grossly negligent. They could not have known for sure who was in the vehicles, which represented no threat. The IDF are conducting an investigation of the incident and the results will be submitted to the governments of the countries from which the aid workers came.But I don't think this appalling incident is any reason to disbelieve the claim that Hamas shield behind civilians. Recently the Israelis pulled their forces out of the Al Shifa after a battle lasting 19 days. Who were they fighting if not Hamas and other militants, who had occupied the hospital and were using it as a base in contravention of the rules of war?The letter signed by 600 lawyers including 3 former Supreme Court judges, urging the government to suspend arms sales to Israel lest the UK be deemed complicit in genocide, strikes me as a tendentious piece of virtue signalling. There has been no genocide and there is no 'plausible risk of genocide'. Many civilians have tragically died, but the numbers given out by the Hamas 'Health Ministry' are palpably false.

Steven Rose ● 31d

I agree, Richard.  Despicable does not even come near to a true description!A convoy that had been approved and cleared by the Israeli military!  Then pretend they either did not know about it or that a terrible mistake had happened - on three clearly marked vans on their roof "World Central Kitchen" logos..... Before having a barrage from Israel defenders PLEASE TAKE NOTE THAT I do not defend Hamas in the slightest.  However, the killing of 7 aid workers by Israel is just as unforgivable as Hamas' atrocities.I am afraid I cannot believe Israel any longer when it says that Hamas keep hiding behind civilians....  These were three very identifiable vans that had collected aid for civilians in south Gaza.  "WCK said it would pause operations in Gaza.The team members were traveling in a deconflicted zone in two armored cars with the WCK logo and another vehicle without armor, according to a statement from the nonprofit. The WCK said that it had coordinated movements with the Israeli Defense Forces but that the convoy was struck as it was leaving a warehouse in Deir al Balah, a city in central Gaza. The team had unloaded more than 100 tons of food brought to Gaza by sea."https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2024-04-01/world-central-kitchen-workers-killed-gaza-jose-andresHorrific does not cover it!

Ivonne Holliday ● 31d

Mr MacLeod'The reason is to be found in the way Israel was created in the first place'.To put all the discussions about Israel and Palestine in an historical context , it should not be forgotten that there have been Jews living in the region for millennia alongside Arabs.Read the Bible !The 'Two State Solution' has been on the agenda at least since the Balfour Declaration of 1917 "favouring the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.....it being clearly understood that nothing be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine".Emir Faisal, son of Sherif Hussein leader of the Arab revolt against the occupying Turks, signed an agreement with Chaim Weizmann during the 1919 Peace Conference supporting the Declaration and acknowledging the 'kinship and bonds' between Arabs and Jews.The international community accepted the Declaration which specifically referred to "the historical connections of the Jewish people with Palestine" and included it in terms of the British Mandate for the region which was formalised by the fifty-two governments at the League of Nations in 1922.Ironically Churchill in 1921 took four-fifths of Palestine, 35,000 square miles, to create a new Arab entity Transjordan and by 1949 Britain allocated 87,000 acres of the 187,000 cultivatable land to the Arabs and 4,250 to the Jews.In 1922 the Jewish population in Palestine was 84,000 and the Arab 643,000.In 1939 the British also said Jewish immigration into Palestine would be limited to 75,000 during the next 5 years and then cease.Arab migration would be unrestricted.The Arabs rejected these terms.In 1937 the Peel Commission, following the ending of the British Mandate in Palestine offered the Jews 15% of Western Palestine and the Arabs independence in the rest.This was rejected by the Arabs.In 1941, the Mufti of Jerusalem left Palestine to meet with Hitler.He wanted the Nazis to extend their anti-Jewish program to the Arab world.Hitler said the time was not yet right but the Mufti thanked him for his sympathy to the Palestinian cause and saying the Arabs were Germany's natural friends.Then the UN set up a Special Commission on Palestine in 1947 which recommended the establishment of two separate states - one Jewish and one Arab.Jews welcomed the compromise.The Arabs rejected it wanting a unitary Arab state and not wanting to be seen recognising Israel.And the interagency and antagonism of the Arabs towards Israel continues to this day.Even though the Arabs govern Gaza and the West Bank.Sorry to go on so long but I think it time we get away from the simplistic view that Israel is and always has been the colonial oppressor of poor little, friendless Palestine and realise it's more complex than that.

John Hawkes ● 31d

Mr Macleod'the feeling persists  - and not only in the Islamic world - that Israel has a record of overstepping its limits, and of treating its neighbours with disrespect.Ah yes; those uppity Jews !

John Hawkes ● 31d

Mr CarterI am impressed with the effort you put into researching the news media to prove how wicked the Israelis are.If only you would acknowledge the fact that the suffering of the innocents caused in the context of Israel having to defend itself from Hamas attacks, would stop were this proscribed terrorist organisation to renounce its Charter that calls for the destruction of the state of Israel and the annihilation of the Jews.I assume you have read it ? Not only that, Hamas could then concentrate its efforts on turning Gaza into a Western-style state like Israel with successful economic and socio-political systems; much to the benefit of its own benighted citizens.When are you going to reverse your political posture and critique of heaping all the blame for this conflict on Israel whilst implicitly excusing the acts of terror perpetrated by the Palestinians by seeming to imply they have no agency in this situation ?What is it about Israel and its citizens you really can't stand whilst you seem to see Palestinians as totally blameless for their own misfortunes ?Are you not just seeking atonement for your feelings of guilt regarding your own 'white privilege' ?

John Hawkes ● 31d

Why doesn't someone ask why Hamas has been turned into the implacable hate machine that it unquestionably is? The reason is to be found in the way Israel was created in the first place. The displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and Arabs festers still. Israel's subsequent relentless expansion has deepened the resentment. OK, it's all history, and it is impossible to recover the past, but the feeling persists  - and not only in the Islamic world - that Israel has a record of overstepping its limits, and of treating its neighbours with disrespect. It certainly has a right to defend itself, and the Jews have a proud history, but does the Jewish state have the right to keep on killing innocent women, children and, now, aid workers in a conflict that has its origins in the disputed (and British) Balfour Declaration?

Alexander MacLeod ● 31d

Robert - we do not have to support Israel at all = there can be no 'have' about it - what Israel is doing is visiting carnage and slaughter upon innocents, mainly children and babies - some peoples twisted ethical bent may incline them towards justifying such genocide but mine does not. What sort of monster can ever justify the slaughter of children and the deliberate bombing of hospitals?

Clifford Cowell ● 31d

There are Palestinian and Arab journalists in Gaza whose reports and footage are regularly broadcast. As to the hostages, I don't think Netanyahu or any other Israeli is indifferent to their fate. But though the families (understandably) want a deal at any price, the Israeli government, probably with the support of most Israelis, are not willing to give in to Hamas' demands for the return of the hostages, which include a complete Israeli withdrawal. This would leave Hamas in control of Gaza, ready to renew their attacks.

Steven Rose ● 32d

The death of the aid workers is a tragedy. Unfortunately incidents of this kind occur in every war. It has been estimated, for example, that 15% of  the American soldiers killed both in the Second World War and Vietnam were killed by friendly fire. It is even worse when aid workers die, but the causes are the same: flawed intelligence, poor communications and hot-headed soldiers or commanders. The enquiry will determine what combination of these factors led to the ghastly error by the IDF, which, contrary to all the propaganda, has generally tried as far as possible to avoid civilian casualties. The ratio of civilian to Hamas casualties has been estimated at 1.5 : 1 and may be nearer 1 :1, compared to the figure of 3 : 1 for civilian as opposed to military casualties during the invasion of Iraq. Every civilian death is a tragedy but it would be wrong to suggest that Israel is more culpable in this respect than other nations, including our own.I don’t agree with the sentiment behind Philippa Bond’s remark that the war didn’t begin on October 7, which seeks, if not to justify, then to explain Hamas’ monstrous attack. I don’t think a horrible pogrom can ever be put in ‘context’. Factually, however, her remark is accurate. The war didn’t begin on October 7. It began in 2001 when Hamas and Islamic Jihad started firing rockets into Israel and have continued ever since, even though the Israelis unilaterally dismantled their settlements and withdrew from Gaza in 2005.And for that reason I don’t accept Richard’s analogy of an abusive  husband who blames his wife for his own violence. Hamas is not an innocent victim.  As Robert pointed out earlier in this thread, Hamas could end this tomorrow if it released the remaining hostages.

Steven Rose ● 32d

There are reports that the hostages' families have now started campaigning for Netanyahu to go as they feel that he is hindering the negotiations which are necessary in order for the hostages to be released.

Philippa Bond ● 32d

This isn't the first mistake though: there was the shooting of their own escaping hostages and the Catholic women sheltering in a church trying to go to the loo; I believe there have also been other close shaves with western medical staff narrowly avoiding bombardments. Yes, Hamas are still holding the hostages, an inexcusable and cruel act but one assumes Hamas took them originally as a bargaining position? Personally I've come to the conclusion that I don't think Netanyahu is worried about deaths whether they're the hostages, Palestinians or foreign aid workers - although I noticed one or two other Israeli spokespeople seemed more conciliatory and perhaps rattled by this attack and the statements by foreign leaders condemning it - it seems he is just trying to protect his own position given the demonstrations and opposition against him in Israel.As I've said before my cynical position makes me wonder what is being hidden as no western journalists are allowed into Gaza. I'd have to say given the surveillance and information products I've seen that are commercially available from Israeli companies I'm surprised that with what must be available to the Israeli military they made the mistake of hitting three clearly maked vehicles sequentially from a drone even in the dark if the convoy's route had been clearly communicated. I guess we'll have to wait for the result of the open and independent enquiry to see who was negligent or incompetent? Let's hope the IDF have more integrity than the UK's PO.What's sad is that looking at social media this action seems to be losing sympathy for the Israeli government, and the hostages' and their families' plight is being forgotten, while the important Hamas leaders are safe in Qatar and other places to live another day and probably continue their fight in the future :-(

Michael Ixer ● 32d

"wait for the investigations and the conclusions to come out"Let's hope the enquiry into this terrible event is rather more thorough than the inquiry into the shooting dead of the three surrendering hostages on 15 December. Despite the fact that the hostages, who were shirtless, visibly unarmed and carrying a white flag, the conclusion of this determinedly non-forensic "inquiry" was that "there was no malice in the event, and the soldiers carried out the right action to the best of their understanding of the event at that moment." So that's all right then.And do read the last paragraph of my original post and stop this endless trying to deflect blame on Hamas: this tactic is like the abusive husband who says after beating his wife: "Look what you made me do."

Richard Carter ● 32d

Really?  It didn't start on 7 October and what about all the teenagers that the Israelis have put in jail for throwing stones etc?

Philippa Bond ● 32d

Get a grip Philippa why not wait for the investigations and the conclusions to come out before your rabid claims are made.  War is always chaos and Hamas could end this tomorrow with the release of the hostages.

Robert Wheeler ● 32d

Israel don't allow foreign journalists in to report on what is happening and exactly what they are doing.  They are supposed to have the most sophisticated military in the world so how can there be any accident? They are just continuing the killing. Why do they insist on give vehicles permission to pass and then target them?  Why don't Israel let aid in through the easiest channels?  Is there some good cop bad cop scenario playing out?  Why did they originally cut off water and then reinstate it?  Was that something that was just too obvious a war crime?

Philippa Bond ● 32d

We have to support Israel as there will never be peace with Hamas declaring death to Israel.  Why don’t Hamas just release the hostages and end this.  What no answer?Israel will make mistakes but hasn’t Hamas however we hold our friends to a higher standard.

Robert Wheeler ● 32d