Forum Topic

Toxic Thames.

Bit strange how they have to suddenly come out with the Thames is dirty just before the Boat Race. We know it's filthy and full of germs, so why haven't they attempted to do something about it sooner. Mud larking, I have notice some people on the TV programs don't even wear gloves while poking about in the mud. This is all on front page of the forum, just another excuse to charge customers more for their water. When they allow leaks in roads to go on for days.t

Barbara Stevens ● 32d59 Comments

And it isn't just the water companies who are responsible for the state of the rivers.  Here is some food for thought:https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/apr/19/most-uk-dairy-farms-ignoring-pollution-rules-as-manure-spews-into-rivers

Philippa Bond ● 9d

They have been doing this all over the country.  You may have a choice of water company if you are a business BUT NOT if you are a household.

Philippa Bond ● 11d

Richard Carter ● 15d

https://chamberuk.com/plastic-wet-wipes-banned-another-repeat-of-failed-measures/Will they won't they will they bite the bullet and follow through?They cost water companies 100s of millions of pounds clearing the sewers.It isn't just wet wipes that go into the sewers and rivers that shouldn't and need tougher dealing with with but run off from farms and roads and other long lasting chemicals.  The above article explains more.

Philippa Bond ● 17d

You would have to ask Thames Water that.  With old infrustructure all the upheaval in mending one bit of pipework can put pressure on other bits of pipework causing other leaks.  You need to keep up the pressure on Thames Water to make sure that any leaks are fixed satisfactorily.Many people seem to be unable to cope with any roadworks delaying their daily routines - but to get something fixed you need to keep on reporting it and expect the road to have to be dug up causing delays in order to fix it.  There's a lot of work that has to go in to assessing what the problem is and how it needs to be carried out, liaising with the LA and organising traffic lights etc.  Sometimes problems are easy to fix sometimes not so easy.https://www.thameswater.co.uk/help/report-a-problem#/view-problems-mapIt doesn't help when people despite being asked not to insist on putting stuff that shouldn't go down the loo down the loo eg wet wipes.  They block the sewers sticking to congealed fats and grease creating fatbergs and cost the water companies millions to get rid of.  With the sudden heavy and increased rainfall we are getting there is a lot more volume in the combined sewers.  Surely nobody wants the sewers to back up depositing waste in their homes?Fleur Anderson MP has been trying to get a Bill through Parliament banning these wet wipes which contain plastics so that they don't block our sewers and cause problems in our rivers.The water companies say only pee poo and loo paper should be flushed. Everything else should be binned.

Philippa Bond ● 21d

Richard I too would refuse to join any club that would have you as a member

Andy Pike ● 21d

There’s a leak on Chartfield Avenue that’s been there for almost 30 years.There have been 2 unsuccessful attempts to fix it in the past couple of years.How difficult can it be?

Canice Valentine Kelly ● 22d

https://www.ofwat.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/pap_pos_tms_acqtmskemble.pdfThere has been a change to some legislation made in Parliament about water companies very recently presumably as a result of the problems that Thames Water in particular has been suffering.

Philippa Bond ● 23d

So, Kemble Water, Thames Water's owner,  appears to be insolvent:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68742551

Michael Ixer ● 23d

Things are getting very difficult for gentlemen these days, the Garrick Club has now even voted to allow women to join: the horror!Personally, where the Garrick is concerned, I'm a follower of Groucho Marx: "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."

Richard Carter ● 23d

As I understand it it was the second overseas owners who piled on the debts AND paid out huge dividends.  I believe that those owners later bought another UK water company and I wonder how they have acted with that and whether regulations were different.  Regulations are an anathema to some but are necessary.  They also bought the UK's Green Investment Bank.  Govt tried with Cadbury's I think it was to ensure that the factories weren't closed but once companies are sold off despite agreements it doesn't seem to be possible to do this.  Gentlemen's Agreements should be banned anyway due to the lack of gentlemen!

Philippa Bond ● 24d

Sure, we can all do things to save water.But why were/are the owners of the water companies (and it's not just TW) allowed to siphon off (no pun intended) billions in dividends instead of paying off their debts? Surely there should be legislation in place to prevent such rapacious behaviour!

John Kettlekey ● 25d

It's no big deal:If it is yellow - let it mellowIf it is brown - flush it downWater companies for years have been giving discounts on water butts, encouraging people to shower and providing adaptions to taps that give a spray to slow the flow.  There are also water saving shower heads.There is a tremendous difference in the amount of water used to flush a new loo (maybe as little as 1.6 gallons) as opposed to an old one (7-8 gallons)!

Philippa Bond ● 25d

Well the answer is don't cook, don't drink and don't go to the loo. No Sh-t.

Barbara Stevens ● 25d

If only there had been more fuss and attention long long before this!  The campaigns to do something about it have increased and increased and there is now more regulation.  Thames Water is stuck in the middle between the Govt regulations and Ofwat. The trouble with privatised companies is that they change ownership and although I thought it was the first company that had piled the debt onto Thames Water, Ivonne earlier posted a timeline of ownership recently and it seems it wasn't - it was the second.  I understood that there weren't dividends being paid out to shareholders recently and that that happened much earlier in Thames Waters' privatised life. Their problems are the servicing of their large debts,  - and I think one in particular is due in soon.  The other big problem is that in the UK we have combined rainwater and sewage pipes and not enough/up to date infrastructure (yes, just another case of UK infrastructure) to deal with it all and whenever there is heavy rainfall the storm drains have to be opened to allow untreated or half treated water in the rivers.  The alternative would be the water backing up and flooding people's homes.  So they - and we - are between a rock and a hard place which hopefully the Tideway Tunnel will solve.It is important that rainwater and river water is slowed down and you will find that the Environment Agency has put wiggles back into at least one river to do this, farmers have been taken to court for interfering with the flow of river water by straightening streams.  The concreting and asphalting of land be it for big building or all the new bathrooms and loos and non-porous patios and hardstandings that residents have added to properties just exacerbate the problem.There are things we can do like using water butts where you can so that you both slow the rainwater down the drain and also have water for the garden when there is no rain, and being much more aware of the amount of water you use (our tap water is drinking water standard). Expect to see more swales and rain gardens!

Philippa Bond ● 25d

The Guardian has suggested we send in nominations for our UK invertebrate species of the year (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/apr/02/nominate-your-uk-invertebrate-species-of-the-year). My nomination goes to the Conservative government for their spineless inaction on the pollution in our water (though maybe we should keep the nominations open for when the next Labour governmentfails to act similarly...).

Richard Carter ● 25d

Andy, sadly, I think I'd expire if I did ...

Michael Ixer ● 25d

I wouldnt hold your breath on that one

Andy Pike ● 25d

We need a government that will introduce prison sentences for directors of water companies that dump sewage. I don't see the current useless government doing that. Perhaps Labour would?

Michael Ixer ● 25d

Everywhere gets flooded on a High Tide, even on the non tidal river. All the sewage is left behind on paths, all Richmond, Putney, even Surbiton even at our club it comes right up where you sit outside, all thick mess. What about children picking things up on towpaths, does anybody think the germs on their hands and shoes are being taken indoors.

Barbara Stevens ● 25d

Astonishingly, the investors in Thames Water and its parent company are blaming Ofwat, the supposed regulator of the water companies, for the present mess. Thames have a plan, they bleat, and Ofwat is stopping them from implementing it: “After more than a year of negotiations, Ofwat has not been prepared to provide the necessary regulatory support for a business plan which ultimately addresses the issues that Thames Water faces,” they claim.The fact that the "plan" involves allowing Thames to increase prices to customers by 56% (inc. inflation) by 2030, pay lower fines for spillages of sewage and paying out massive dividends doesn't factor in here. And no one in government seems the least bothered by this!

Richard Carter ● 25d

Let's be clear this is not just  an embarrassment to the current government but to all the governments since privatisations and to all the governments in the future including the in waiting Labour one.Fundamentally it comes down to them neither following a socialist agenda or a capitalist one.Rees Mogg quite right let it fail.I'm probably the most radical when it comes to opinions on the forum. But private companies should not only fail but also reap the rewards if they have invested and completed in a fair and open market. I'm against retrospective tax on individuals or companies.Retrospective taxes usually means a failure of regulations or the market or both and should be dealt with by either fines or reform not a windfall tax.If the market is not fair or open then do not elect the same politicians.

Ed Robinson ● 29d

Maybe it will improve water quality, but it's A bit late for Thames Water - and for us. The FT today says that "Ministers have accepted that bills will have to rise to "stop it from sliding towards a politically disastrous nationalisation." "We are not overjoyed about bills rising," said one government insider close to the discussions with Ofwat and Thames Water. "But if you have to give somewhere, it would have to be on bills."So, to avoid the embarrassment to the government of renationalising, we the customers will have to pay. Quelle surprise!

Richard Carter ● 29d

No one is mentioning that the Tideway Tunnel will definitely Improve the Water Quality in the Tidal Thames!

Vic Condon ● 30d

“Thames Water ought to be allowed to go bankrupt. It would continue to be run by an administrator, the shareholders would lose their equity but they took too much cash out so deserve no sympathy.”Wise words, but who said them? It was that absurd stuffed shirt Rees Mogg: the first time I've agreed with anything he has said!

Richard Carter ● 30d

So, yes, let TW drift into collapse and then harvest the proceeds. But we may have to be patient. TW moves slowly. They told me (wrongly) that I had a leak on our property. It took them 9 months to come and taker a look, and another 3 months to admit, having checked, that the fault was their meter.

Alexander MacLeod ● 31d

Actually, things are a bit more complicated than that: in the 1950s pollution was very bad, to the extent that in 1957 the Thames was declared biologically dead. But then improvements were made and the water cleaned up so that many fish returned. But then it all went downhill again with privatisation so that we reach the filthy state the river is in now.

Richard Carter ● 31d

Having lived in Festing, Rotherwood and Bendemeer Roads and seen many Boat Races and fallen in from the embankent larking about, I can confirm it's always been filthy.

Fross Walters ● 31d

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/517/industry-and-regulators-committee/news/197495/government-criticised-for-lack-of-leadership-over-water-industry-problems/

Philippa Bond ● 31d

PS, I bet SBF is wondering how TW execs got away with their financial manipulations while with FTX everyone should have realised it was a risky, dubious investment? :-)

Michael Ixer ● 31d

Andy, yes, I think many don't understand the workings of financial services. Why would they? It's not taught in schools and, as I said, my knowledge of financial systems in the 1970s and 1980s, when most privatisations of utilities took place, was minimal - but I had a good education in maths and physics and, later, training in ICT; any knowledge I have of finance has been gained later from supporting financial IT systems!If Thames Water fails and goes into administration then there will be some ramifications elsewhere in finacial products but at least it would reset things: plus, firstly, I don't think it's quite on the scale of subprime mortgage debt being repackaged as triple 'A' debt and, secondly, there's time to plan for it - a year and a half according to TW's CEO!

Michael Ixer ● 31d

No blame Michael. Im sure my pension benefits from investment in shares I maybe not happy with.My point was do those complaining know if they have benefitted from these shares via their pensions.A bit like the dick Fox who told everyone to boycott Nike whilst wearing a pair of their shoes.

Andy Pike ● 31d

An interesting question, Andy. Noone was ever going to get rich from the handful of shares made available to the oversubscribed public privatisation floatations. I'll be honest, I had a handful of British Gas shares, the main benefit from that now is I get to attend the shareholders' meetings and get to see the Just Stop Oil floor shows - and chat with some interesting people from the Netherlands who represent organisations owning shares in Shell and attend to make serious challenges to Shell board's "greenwashing". (Some from activist organisations using legal approaches and the courts, others serious financial investment companies with strong ethics.)I must admit back in the 1970s my knowledge of how stock markets, pensions and other non cash investments worked was minimal. However, if one wants a personal or company pension it's impossible in a capitalist society to avoid stock market investments and unless you invest in a SIPP there's little control over where that money is invested (at least, that's my perception). So you can't blame pensioners if they've benefited from privatisation shares via pensions unless you're suggesting they should rely on the meagre state pension and live in penury? Let's hope the pension company's analysts saw the high gearing and potential disaster, pocketed the dividends and sold out when the shares were high - at least some in the UK might benefit!

Michael Ixer ● 31d

There's talk of a government bailing out Thames Water, but that would just mean the public purse  (i.e., us) paying off the crooks who caused this mess in the first place. The answer, surely, is to let the blighters go bust and then to pick up the pieces cheaply. Sure that would mean some public pension schemes losing out, but if this line were adopted there'd be some spare cash to help them.

Richard Carter ● 31d

Apologies, but this is going to be a long post.All the information below is from Wikipedia. It is fairly hairaising.  After MacQuire's "asset stripping", please check the last paragraph that lists who the mayor shareholders are.  Heartbreaking?  One heck of an understatement! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_WaterPrivatisationIn 1989, the responsibility for navigation, regulatory, river and channels management was transferred from the Thames Water Authority to the National Rivers Authority, which later became part of the Environment Agency. The remainder of the Thames Water Authority was privatised as Thames Water Utilities Limited.TakeoversThames Water plc was acquired by the German utility company RWE in 2001.[6]On 17 October 2006, following several years of criticism about failed leakage targets in the UK, RWE announced it would sell Thames Water for £8 billion to Kemble Water Holdings Ltd, a consortium led by the Australian Macquarie Group which appointed David Owens as CEO. In December 2006, the sale of Thames Water's British operation went ahead, with RWE keeping the overseas operations.However, during the 11 years of Macquarie's ownership, which ended in 2017, there were substantial dividend payouts to shareholders. In this period debts more than tripled from £3.2bn to £10.5bn (unadjusted for inflation) as Macquarie borrowed against the company's assets to increase dividend payments. During these 11 years £2.8bn was paid to shareholders, 40% of the total £7bn in dividends paid in the 32 years from 1990 to 2022.Sale by MacquarieFrom 2017, under the government's Open Water programme, and in common with all water and sewerage companies, Thames Water was required to provide entirely separate retail and wholesale operations for its commercial customers, working through a central market operator.On 14 March 2017, Macquarie Group sold its remaining stake in Thames Water's holding company to Canadian pensions group OMERS and the Kuwait Investment Authority.On 22 March 2017 a record fine of £20.3m was imposed on Thames Water after large leaks of untreated sewage, totalling 1.4bn litres, occurred over a number of years.As of July 2023, the company listed its shareholders as: OMERS (32%), the Universities Superannuation Scheme (USS - 20%), Infinity Investments (a subsidiary of the Abu Dhabi Investment Authority) (10%), British Columbia Investment Management Corporation (9%), Hermes Investment Management (manager of the BT Pension Scheme) (9%), the China Investment Corporation (9%), Queensland Investment Corporation (5%), Aquila GP Inc. (5%), and Stichting Pensioenfonds Zorg en Welzijn (2%). Shareholders have not taken a dividend since 2017, though the company has paid internal dividends from the operational business to holding companies to be able to service its debt obligations.

Ivonne Holliday ● 31d

Got to wonder how many of the folk moaning about past privatisations benefitted directly by buying shares at the time or through their pension funds investing in these companies.

Andy Pike ● 31d

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68682198

Philippa Bond ● 31d

The more they are fined the larger their debts become...  The ownership of privatised companies like this changes.  We complain about the company but it isn't quite as simple as that when they have shareholders and it isn't just one company and they aren't just individuals but pension funds and other Govts...  who may not want to fork out.https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/10/as-thames-water-sinks-macquarie-group-continues-its-unstoppable-rise#:~:text=Macquarie%20sold%20its%20final%20stake,concerns%20taxpayers%20were%20being%20shortchanged.

Philippa Bond ● 31d

BTW All the water companies are having trouble with sewage spills because of our joint rainwater and sewage systems.  There is also a lot of pollution of our waterways from farming, from manufacturing and from run off from roads - let alone all the misconnected properties sending dirty water straight into rivers.  We need the Environment Agency to be fully staffed and funded to follow up on all pollution.When you see raingardens and swales being built together with rivers and streams being unstraightened this isn't just a cosmetic expenditure it is to slow down the speed and time that rainwater takes to hit the main sewers.

Philippa Bond ● 31d

Another instance of "the unacceptable face of capitalism ". I guess the only hope is the regulator keeps saying no to any price rises and it goes into administration. That will be messy but if it results in the shareholders and debt lenders being taught a lesson it will be worthwhile. I'm sure if this were France the customers would just stop paying their water bills!

Michael Ixer ● 31d

Just to add, this is how the debt pile at Thames Water has grown since privatisation:
Also, Chris Weston, Thames' chief executive, said last year that “I’d like to reassure our customers that, despite this announcement [about their hope that debts could be repaid], it is business as usual for Thames Water." But that's exactly why people are so worried!

Richard Carter ● 31d

To privatise what is in effect a monopoly with a guaranteed customer base in the national interest just has to have been crazy.  Who wouldn't want to buy into that?  It then seems to have been seen by some of the vultures in the international markets as a really great asset to borrow against.On the one side the Govt has lots of water regulations some of which they relaxed when it became difficult.  The Environment Authority had a lot of cuts and could not monitor.  (There is now stricter monitoring.)  On the other side Ofwat was refusing to allow the cost to customers to rise.  

Philippa Bond ● 31d

You're right, of course: I was referring just to the symptoms, but the cause of them is a much more important issue, and it is indeed the extremely poor model used for the privatisation of the water companies. As Caroline Lucas told parliament last year, the "water companies had no debt when they were privatised. Since then, they have borrowed £53 billion, and much of that has been used to help pay £72 billion in dividends. Meanwhile, we have an appalling sewage scandal, particularly in the south-east of England." In particular, over the last five years Thames Water has spent over a quarter (27.8%) of its income on servicing the almost £15 bn in debt it has loaded onto the company.

Richard Carter ● 31d

All very well going on about the toxic Thames and other rivers (and lakes and beaches). Surely the real issue is privatisation. The idea that an absolutely essential public utility should be put in the hands of profit-making businesses, several of which are foreign-owned, was always insane. It was yet another failed Tory gambit. I'm keen to know how in coming weeks and months Labour  responds to this latest H2O uproar.

Alexander MacLeod ● 31d

All very well going on about the toxic Thames and other rivers (and lakes and beaches). Surely the real issue is privatisation. The idea that an absolutely essential public utility should be put in the hands of profit-making businesses, several of which are foreign-owned, was always insane. It was yet another failed Tory gambit. I'm keen to know how in coming weeks and months Labour  responds to this latest H2O uproar.

Alexander MacLeod ● 31d

Actually, I've revised my opinion on this somewhat, having read this report: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/mar/27/a-national-disgrace-oxford-rail-at-river-thames-pollution-ahead-of-boat-raceIt shows a much worse picture than before: high levels of E coli were found in the Thames; symptoms of infection with E coli include diarrhoea, stomach cramps and occasionally fever. About half of people with the infection will have bloody diarrhoea. In a small number of cases it can lead to kidney failure and death. This is rare: but who would want to take that risk?The Environment Agency's worst rating of E coli levels found in bathing waters is “poor” ("water has not met the minimum standard" and bathing in it is warned against) but levels found in the Thames were nearly ten times higher than that - hence the real concern over the Boat Race.

Richard Carter ● 31d

https://www.thameswater.co.uk/about-us/performance/mogdenMogden always used to inform river users when they let sewage into the river.  This was particularly important for schools' rowing.https://www.thameswater.co.uk/edm-map

Philippa Bond ● 32d

https://www.tideway.london/the-tunnel/timeline/

Philippa Bond ● 32d

The only surprise about this is that antone is surprised: the filthy water scandal has been going on for years.

Richard Carter ● 32d

It will.It's one of the biggest engineering projects underground in London, so it does take a little time to build.

Andy Pike ● 32d

I know some of you hate the Guardian, but his article really enfuriates me!Water companies in England face outrage over record sewage dischargesWater companies in England have faced a barrage of criticism as data revealed raw sewage was discharged for more than 3.6m hours into rivers and seas last year in a 105% increase on the previous 12 months.https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/mar/27/water-companies-in-england-face-outrage-over-record-sewage-dischargesNo wonder the Thames is in the state it is.  On top of this, Thames Water withdrew I do not how much water from the Thames in Teddington and replenish it with....  you guessed it, "treated water"......I fell sorry for the rowers!

Ivonne Holliday ● 32d

Next Year. If it does.

Barbara Stevens ● 32d

Ifvyou read it all Barbara it also says when 'the big sewer' will open.

Andy Pike ● 32d

I've read it.  It is just another story about the state of our waterways.Did you read it when Fleur Anderson was campaigning for the ban on wet wipes?

Philippa Bond ● 32d

READ THE FRONT PAGE OF THE FORUM.

Barbara Stevens ● 32d

Lots of us have been complaining about the state of the rivers for years. The recent rains (greatest amount since records began) make this worse as the storm drains are opened so that the sewers don't back up into peoples' homes.Our COMBINED sewage and rainwater drainage system is overloaded especially now with the increased rain due to climate change hitting the sewers, the concreting/tarmacking/paving over of gardens so rain can't soak into the ground and extra building.  Ideally it would be separated.  Just imagine how many roads would have to be dug up to do all that, the cost of that - and how much moaning the digging up of roads would cause.I'm told we have the cheapest drinking water in Europe.  Our tap water is drinking water so why do people wash their cars  with it and water their gardens with it instead of using rainwater?Wet wipes and and grease and food put down the drains cause fatbergs and cost the water companies millions of pounds to clear - some cost of which gets passed on.  HURRAY for the food waste collection!

Philippa Bond ● 32d

Or it could just be that as part of the boat race routine preparations the water is tested to see what the risks are if the rowers come into contact with the Thames. That would be a sensible precaution and explain the timing. As John says, the Thames Tunnel has still to be commissioned so it won't be making a difference yet.

Michael Ixer ● 32d

The big sewer opens for use in the next couple of days.This sounds like a story timed for the grand opening of the super sewer.

John Kettlekey ● 32d

What was the point of the big sewer then, just another waste of money.

Barbara Stevens ● 32d