Forum Topic

Ukraine

Could somebody please tell me why with Global Warming, Khan can send our vehicles to Ukraine, but it doesn't matter if they cause pollution with our cars, but we can't. Something fishy going on. What will Greta have to say about this. Will they march in Ukraine, saying our city is already in a mess with your unsuitable cars being sent here, because Khan doesn't want them in his country.

Barbara Stevens ● 48d39 Comments

Link below - seems the plan was to give Ukraine time and that would be sufficient. High corruption doesn't go well with such plans as shown in Afghanistan or even in the UK with regard to PPE.There doesn't appear to have been a plan B or C for that matter.France kept it's defence spending below 2% GDP, Germany just above 1% and the UK's went from 2.5 to 2%.France at least is more energy independent unlike the UK & Germany. No preparation appears to have been made with regard to energy despite the repeated US warning that they would one way or another put an end to Norsk Stream.A free press stopped the Vietnam war. It probably could have stopped the multiple of illegal wars the UK engaged in. Could it have stopped the Ukraine war? Many regional conflicts like Gaza, Ukraine (pre invasion) and Northern Ireland exists due to inequality. A free press can certainly shine a light on those issues before they become critical and lead to better decisions.The EU is meant to be founded on law and process. Pro Israel or not Ursula von der Leyen did not follow process nor did she have the legal authority when she cancel Palestinian aid. So whose orders was she following??Also the veto is vital to the EU constitution. Strange that there is no outcry in the EU effectively breaking its constitution and probably acting illegally. Ukraine aid could easily come from member states just like the UK.Is it still looking like the EU that some hard remainers would have us believe?https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/brussels-threatens-hit-hungarys-economy-if-orban-vetoes-ukraine-aid-ft-2024-01-29https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2023/01/the-wests-tankies-finally-get-their-way-in-ukraine-but-where-does-that-way-lead.html

Ed Robinson ● 43d

Mr Robinson,Now you have lost me completely!"NATO ceased to be a defence organisation once it began to conduct offensive operations."  Care to explain, please?"I'm not sure how the EU's conduct in Ukraine by not honouring peace agreements promotes peace or by sanctioning cutting off electricity, food and water to 2 million people does."  ???????Which peace agreements are you referring to, please?

Ivonne Holliday ● 43d

"Michael perhaps a million dead is a light matter to you but not to me."Putting words into my mouth again?"Talk of mobilization here in the UK by politicians and generals joined at the hip to a corrupt US, means that noone should be under the illusion that it could soon be a million British lives providing good value for the buck. Would the US care about British lives? It seems the UK didn't care much about US lives when it came to the withdrawal of Afghanistan. Lives it seems do not hold the same value by some if out of sight."Not sure what the above has got to do with Greens or Hard remainers?"I direct you to Peter Kitchens articles on Ukraine. The Minsk agreement and actual EU intentions are well documented. But then again why would you want to know?"I have looked and honestly can't find an article where Germany and France said 'they wouldn't honour any agreement' - I know you aren't my search engine but please provide a link. I honestly cannot find it."You can not have democracy without freedom of speech, transparency and a free press. It is what should separate us from Putin. It is not a nice to have. The little value you appear to give to it underlines the issues we now face. "The comment you made was that we needed a free press to deter Putin, my response to you is that a free press would not have stopped him. I'm asking you to explain why you think it would have done."merky"Murky

Michael Brigo ● 43d

Michael perhaps a million dead is a light matter to you but not to me.Talk of mobilization here in the UK by politicians and generals joined at the hip to a corrupt US, means that noone should be under the illusion that it could soon be a million British lives providing good value for the buck. Would the US care about British lives? It seems the UK didn't care much about US lives when it came to the withdrawal of Afghanistan. Lives it seems do not hold the same value by some if out of sight.I direct you to Peter Kitchens articles on Ukraine. The Minsk agreement and actual EU intentions are well documented. But then again why would you want to know?As I said it is unlikely that any future agreement will be better than the various agreements that were on the table before or during the conflict.Northern Ireland, Gaza or Ukraine eventually agreements have to be made.You can not have democracy without freedom of speech, transparency and a free press. It is what should separate us from Putin. It is not a nice to have. The little value you appear to give to it underlines the issues we now face. I didn't say it was black and white, in fact it seems you view these matters as being black and white rather than the merky reality.I think your response answered your last question.

Ed Robinson ● 44d

ooooh @Ed you're sounding a little hysterical...perhaps it's time to put the sherry down?Let's tick these points off one by one shall we?"For the leaders of France & Germany to admit they had no intentions of honouring international agreements"I'm actually interested in this one, with no sarcasm (honestly) because i'm not sure what you are talking about. Give me something to read please :)"Lock up journalists for example? What say you on that?"I am not in favour of locking up journalists - I admit i'm not sure what this has to do with your accusation that 'hard remainers and greens' have provoked Putin into invading Ukraine. I'm ready to be enlightened though!"The way to defeat Putin is not by acting like him but sticking to the democratic principles of transparency and the freedom of the press, transparency and the belief in the common person making the right decisions given the facts."Excellent, a most worthy amibition and i'm sure a committment to a press press would absolutely have deterred Putin from invading. He certainly comes across as the sort of person who could be stopped by an unflattering headline doesn't he?"Are you against Putin but want to stave two million people to death? How does that work?"Um...no, i'm against Putin and i'm also against starving two million people to death. I don't see the world in the same black and white way that you seem to - I don't agree with the EU stance on Gaza at all, however I am broadly in favour of the idea of the EU in general.Perhaps I missed it in your slightly tipsy/hysterical response but I still can't figure out how the Greens/"hard remainers" are responsible for Russia invading Ukraine?I await, with some excitement I admit, your response!

Michael Brigo ● 44d

NATO ceased to be a defence organisation once it began to conduct offensive operations.I'm not sure how the EU's conduct in Ukraine by not honouring peace agreements promotes peace or by sanctioning cutting off electricity, food and water to 2 million people does. 

Ed Robinson ● 44d

I am sorry but you have confused me.I thought the main values of the EU were to promote peace, its values and well-being of its citizens.On the other hand, NATO's essential and enduring purpose is to safeguard the freedom and security of all its members by political and military means. Collective defence is at the heart of the Alliance and creates a spirit of solidarity and cohesion among its members.

Ivonne Holliday ● 44d

Yes thank you for your correction Michael.Perhaps my post was not clear about the EU's primary purpose being to prevent war in Europe. It almost seems to have been forgotten.For the leaders of France & Germany to admit they had no intentions of honouring international agreements one would have thought that would have received some attention as it seems to conflict with the EU's primary objective.No so you it seems. Perhaps you believe that we should act more like Putin too?Lock up journalists for example? What say you on that?The way to defeat Putin is not by acting like him but sticking to the democratic principles of transparency and the freedom of the press, transparency and the belief in the common person making the right decisions given the facts.What say you on the EU and it's stance on Gaza?Are you against Putin but want to stave two million people to death? How does that work?Please enlighten me Michael?

Ed Robinson ● 44d

It is a voluntary schemeThat statement refers to the vehicles for Ukraine. Ie those scrapping can volunteer their vehicle for donation to.Ukraine.ULEZ is a done deal, a bad deal in my opinion but it's done.

Andy Pike ● 44d

"War should be the last result"I assume you mean 'resort' but either way what has that got to do with the Green party or 'hard remainers'?Perhaps your comments would be better directed at Putin? Or are you going to pretend that the Greens and Remainers somehow pushed him into invading Ukraine?

Michael Brigo ● 44d

"It is a voluntary scheme."Not really - it's a scheme that has been created due to a retrospective tax that has impacted the market and worth of some of those vehicles, forcing many who can least afford sell.I would add that the ULEZ expansion IMO will makes no economic or environmental sense when compared to alternatives such as expanding the congestion zone to inner London. Odd that Greens seem to be against this. After all Inner London's transport is excellent compared to outer London. Voter base I'm sure has nothing to do with it.It's money ill spent on either vehicles that are at their end of life and would be scrapped anyway or would be perfectly good for another couple of years.Either way TFL's reluctance to make public the data they had on the impact is always a clue.The ULEZ expansion infrastructure such as fixed/mobile cameras not to mention policing and other costs does not help anyone get from A to B. In short it is transport money being spent on non-transport.

Ed Robinson ● 44d

War should be the last result.There was the Minsk 1 & 2 which German & French leaders admitted subsequently they had no intention of honouring.Hang on - wasn't the EU primary purpose to prevent war in Europe?Not a mention from the hard remainers who are more concerned about a short delay at an airport.Then there was the agreement last year that was scuppered by Biden/Johnson.Even if the war ends it is unlikely to be on terms as good as the above. That's without factoring the million dead, many young. Not to mention the many that have left Ukraine and are unlikely to return.The US answer seems to be extend conscription. As one US commentator put it, it's US dollars well spent. Unfortunately it is Ukraine & Russian blood that is being spent in many cases by politicians on both side wallowing in corruption.Having green vehicles for defense is one thing. But if you are going to wage war around the planet, destroying cities, countries etc then the benefit will be neglectable.

Ed Robinson ● 44d

Thank you for your detailed response. I think your concept of being pro war is a bit simplistic. Yes in a perfect world there would be no wars but to support Ukraine in its struggle against Putin is not being pro war. What’s the alternative?Allow Putin, who is a warmonger, to take over Ukraine? The Spiegel article seems only to refer to the change in the German Greens in relation to Ukraine.On the Green issue - as modern armies have military vehicles, surely it’s better for them to be as Green as possible.

Jane Carter ● 44d

Perception of corruption raises questions for me. Not sure what corruption is being alluded to with regard to the subject of ULEZ scrappage vehicles.Who is it that perceives?What is the measurable that gives the total?On who perceives i suspect the scores would be hugely different if in both cases the audience was made up of Russians or Ukrainians ? So not sure theres much in this.

Andy Pike ● 44d

I invite you to look at the following link.While Ukraine ranks 104/180, Russia is ranked 141/180.https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2023?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwte-vBhBFEiwAQSv_xSRqTdlmCiNi_NJh3zGQsUVfm4wMtyql59AJrApkQFQhX3gC6ZVUSxoC3d4QAvD_BwE

Ivonne Holliday ● 44d

It is a voluntary scheme.Thise applying for the scrappage grant can OPT in tonthe scheme and offer their car for donation or opt out and simply have it scrapped.Only certain types of vehicles will be suitable hence I said' 4x4 etc'. I doubt many use will be found by the Ukraine military for a mini whereas a 4x4 or similar would be useful in the difficult terrain.You really should try and contain your imagination that anyone would come for your house. Again that only happens in  very extreme circumstances (say HS2) when compulsory purchase is necessary ( or not in that instance) for facilitation of a major scheme.

Andy Pike ● 44d

But it doesn't say they only want 4x4, the way it reads it's any cars. It will be knock your house down next we need the land, your house is to old, build a skyscraper.

Barbara Stevens ● 44d

I'm really no9t sure what the problem is here.People surrendering their vehicles for payment of a scrappage fee.Instead of some of those vehicles being crushed (scrapped) they are being gifted to the Ukraine to help with their war effort.Not for everyday Ukrainians to pop out and get their shopping but for the authorities to used strategically during the war effort. Only those vehicles suitable for this initiative ie 4x4s etc are being utilised.The issue of ULEZ in London is completely different but at least in this instance some good comes of bad.

Andy Pike ● 45d

Philippa, give yourself a rest with your https, that's what I'm talking about they can use our vehicles there not here. You don't know about vehicles stay to a subject you do.  Gardens in Hospitals.. Or how to teach your mother to suck eggs. Or worms.

Barbara Stevens ● 45d

Yes Michael, I know but if you didn't know what I meant that is your problem. picky picky, I'll pick up on you when you make a spelling mistake.  Watch this space.

Barbara Stevens ● 45d

The rules were changed following lobbying:https://www.london.gov.uk/vehicles-can-be-sent-ukraine-through-ulez-scrappage-scheme-next-week

Philippa Bond ● 45d

"Please could you provide evidence to back up your claim"Yes, let's start with the Big Man, also favorite for the blowing up of Nord Stream,(It is estimated that more than 115,000 tons natural gas (CH4) were released over the course of six days and contributed greenhouse gas emissions comparable to approximately 15 million tons of CO2—or one third of the Danish total CO2 annual emissions) https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/11/09/electric-military-vehicles-are-part-of-biden-climate-agenda-pentagon-says.htmlI guess we could move onto the German Greens who have been very quiet on the Nord Stream but oddly enough very pro war.https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/from-peaceniks-to-hawks-germany-s-greens-have-transformed-in-the-face-of-russia-s-war-a-19bd95f6-fcbc-497d-8ad9-1a767be205f1You can be green or pro war but not both."In 2012 Ernst & Young put Ukraine among the three most-corrupt nations from 43 surveyed, alongside Colombia and Brazil.[24][25] In 2015 The Guardian called Ukraine "the most corrupt nation in Europe".[26] According to a poll conducted by Ernst & Young in 2017, experts considered Ukraine to be the ninth-most corrupt nation from 53 surveyed.[27]Transparency International's 2023 Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI), which scored 180 countries on a scale from 0 ("highly corrupt") to 100 ("very clean"), gave Ukraine a score of 36"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine#:~:text=Transparency%20International's%202023%20Corruption,Ukraine%20a%20score%20of%2036.

Ed Robinson ● 45d

No, we I was referring to the mathematician, Alan Turing (-ing not -in), and his test for artificial intelligence ...

Michael Ixer ● 45d

Thought you had been reading about the Turin's theory, of women feeling threatened to speak out that was in the newspaper today.

Barbara Stevens ● 45d

Sorry,  Barbara, but I couldn't resist it after seeing Andy's comment 😄 

Michael Ixer ● 45d

Well you won't have to worry Michael, you don't have a car. Good luck if you start getting tickets, like when your vehicle has been nicked. No but it is obviously stuck in my brain after ordering new vehicles for years, and HPI. Are they real or 2 different vehicles stuck together or been in an accident. Checking Chassis No. on the window, especially when they hand over their second hand car. Or if it still has finance on. Blah blah blah.

Barbara Stevens ● 45d

I was discussing Barbara's posts with someone and we think they might fail the Turing test -  Barbara, are you a 'bot'? :-)

Michael Ixer ● 45d

You do write some of the funniest nonsense Barbara

Andy Pike ● 45d

Perhaps he just wants our cars, so he can sell them to his friends or family, perhaps they are being sent to India. Who knows. He might even make money from selling them. Who will you write on the Vehicle Registration Document when you hand them over. They must have to be registered who the new owner will be.

Barbara Stevens ● 45d

Many green activists are even pro war with some believing you can make war green.Please could you provide evidence to back up your claim.

Jane Carter ● 46d

The short answer is war is exempt from climate change in their opinion. Levels of corruption (here & there) are such that we may not be sure that they will be used for their intended purposes Many green activists are even pro war with some believing you can make war green.

Ed Robinson ● 46d

BTW After the restrictions on the use of chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) in refrigerants and elsewhere (eg some inhalers) I don't believe there still is a problem with the ozone layer.https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2023/01/14/how-humans-healed-the-ozone-layer

Philippa Bond ● 46d

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Barbara Stevens ● 47d

Barbara I've just explained to you that the UK is supporting Ukraine in its war against its invader Russia.  Did you read the info I posted?  There were campaigns on change.org by residents of the UK for the UK's export restrictions to be changed to allow the export of vehicles as part of the UK's support and the result is We also have a pollution and climate emergency and that is particularly urgent now because our Govt has been dragging its feet for so long.  The UK was taken to the High Court several times and LOST over air pollution.  More European countries have joined NATO so that we can support each other.Leaving the EU has cost millions.  As did a rash Prime Minister with a crazy budget with frightened the markets together with an expected-sometime-pandemic for which we were inadequately prepared.We are now ALL now having to deal with all these things at the same time.  It has brought hardship to many people.  Some of the worst off are those who don't even have cars and all the 'stuff' we have here and whose homes are being flooded with salt water making it impossible to grow food.  Others are those here whose homes on the coast are being damaged and washed away in heavy storms.

Philippa Bond ● 47d

Philippa give yourself a rest, most people have got rid of their vehicles and sold them, as our area happened well over a year ago. What he is saying is don't sell or scrap them, give them to Khan for nothing to be sent to Ukraine. How do you think people here are struggling with everything. do you think they wanted to get rid of their car that was OK. As you said you don't even have a car what about the people who needed their car here. They have had to spend thousands for a new one. If Sahara dust can blow here so can their fumes, why did we have to get rid of our cars. Because of a shit Government. Ozone here there and everywhere. What about the price for taking them to Ukraine..

Barbara Stevens ● 48d

https://www.london.gov.uk/vehicles-can-be-sent-ukraine-through-ulez-scrappage-scheme-next-weekHere's the press release.  It followed quite a big of lobbying.  I'm dure we'd all like thd war to be over but we also don't want President Putin to invade any more countries in Europe  - or anywhere! else!

Philippa Bond ● 48d

There was nothing to stop you selling or giving your vehicle to people in other parts of the UK with no restrictions  - although there are increasing restrictions all over thd UK.  You couldn't do that if you had exchanged it for a grant and there were people who just wanted to give their vehicles to the war effort in Ukraine where there weren't restrictions but found there were Govt export restrictions on non-compliant cars being exported so nobody could send them.War unfortunately causes a lot more pollution and we would be far better off without it as far as air pollution and green house gases are concerned but it is proving difficult and expensive to win and it seems President Putin wants to rule for ever.

Philippa Bond ● 48d

What has it got to do with Global Warming and Pollution that goes everywhere in the wind, that's why it's called Global Warming. We aren't talking about Ambulances we are talking about residents cars that they have had to get rid of at a great cost. Then having to buy another vehicle. But they are OK in Ukraine WHY?

Barbara Stevens ● 48d

Nothing fishy.  The Govt changed the rules so that vehicles like ambulances and 4-wheel drives and perhaps some others could be sent to what is a war zone where they are unlikely anyway to have as long a life as they might otherwise.

Philippa Bond ● 48d