Forum Topic

Cost of policing pro-Palestine marches in London

I watched a DVD yesterday that described the efforts of the police to catch rapist and burglar Delroy Grant known colloquially as 'The Night Stalker'.What was striking were the efforts the officer leading the hunt for him had to make to set up a temporary squad of about 100 surveillance officers to monitor the suspect.Today I believe the pro-Palestine demonstrators have taken a day off from marching through London ("been there, done that"), hopefully allowing the police to concentrate on the high rates of burglaries, shop lifting, knife attacks and other crimes in the Capital.However I have learnt from my AM Leonie Cooper that costs for policing previous marches from 7/10/23 - 31/12/23 have amounted to £32.5 million, with further costs obviously arising from later marches.Doubtless this will be reflected in the next Mayoral precept in our Council Tax bills.But more to the point on how many more important areas could this money have been spent, rather than on an issue in a far away land, both of which we have no interest in or influence over ?

John Hawkes ● 43d64 Comments

You really are obsessed with both skin colour and violence - aren't you?

Philippa Bond ● 28d

Mr Rose'I am quite worried about the 21% who replied ''don't know'. Are they people who have spent the last six months living in the Amazon rain forest and haven't heard about the atrocity on October 7, or is it that they simply can't make up their minds as to whether torture, rape and murder are a bad thing?'Various reasons for the 21%.Many people don't follow any 'serious' news media at all.Not interested when they can TikTok a cross eyed cat or simply find it all too depressing.Hence probably they have no idea that the shocking event even took place.Were it to be explained to them I am sure all but the most  fanatical Hamas supporting Palestinian or western fellow traveller would condemn it.So, partly self interest but also canny media tactics by the Hamas terrorists.Has anyone seen them interviewed and asked to explain or justify their barbarous actions ?Perhaps on AL Jazeera or another dodgy Arab news channel but none watched by a sophisticated western audience.And I am sure never critically.A 'never explain never complain' approach means Hamas can remain in the shadows and literally get away with murder.If you make no comments you can never be put on the back foot by having them picked over by your critics. And no one but the most forensic investigator really knows who you are; what your beliefs and aims are; and what terrorist acts you have committed.And those you have committed and are known to the enlightened are soon forgotten.This 'no comment' approach is undoubtedly enforced by terror and brutality.Israel on the other hand does allow free speech and as is always the case, someone will always not choose their words carefully enough and will put their foot in it.These comments themselves then become the centre of interest and become easy pickings for any gaslighting opponent wishing to prove how wicked the Israelis as a whole are.Meanwhile the Hamas terrorists just smirk in the background, their atrocities and vile beliefs fading in the memory.

John Hawkes ● 31d

I am quite worried about the 21% who replied ''don't know'. Are they people who have spent the last six months living in the Amazon rain forest and haven't heard about the atrocity on October 7, or is it that they simply can't make up their minds as to whether torture, rape and murder are a bad thing?

Steven Rose ● 31d

Steven,YouGov does its polls mostly online.  While I agree that, normally, it is considered that a pool of 1000 is sufficient to give and indication of points of view, depending on the subject a higher pool is necessary.Have you never heard the comment:  "How could polls have got the results so wrong?"

Ivonne Holliday ● 31d

Mr Rose4% of the population thinking the attack, murder, rape, sexual assault and hostage taking of Israeli women and children by Hamas male Palestinians on 7th October 2023 is indeed worrying.One wonders who these people are.The 2021 census found that 6.5% of the population declared themselves to be Muslim so it is comforting that it cannot be said that 'all Muslims support this attack'.In this 4% there are doubtless extreme Arab Islamist racist antisemites and also white-British holding the same anti-Jewish views.Amongst the latter must be self-flagellating whites offering support to their non-white brothers in the battle for Palestinian freedom. But the reassuring figure is the 75% saying the Hamas actions were unjustified; doubtless both white British and Muslim immigrants. This probably is a true reflection of the fact that in everyday life Muslims and the indigenous white population do in fact rub along well together.Not the case in France one reads.

John Hawkes ● 31d

A more recent poll by YouGov (sampling dates 15-19 March, sample size 4061, https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_IP_RU_240319_W.pdf) has these results:To what extent would you support or oppose the following approaches to the Israel-Palestine conflict?* A single Palestinian state covering the whole of Israel and Palestine, with Jews expelled from the region: support 5%* A single Jewish state covering the whole of Israel and Palestine, with Palestinians expelled from the region: support 5%.I don’t know what you can reliably derive from such a poll except that you can't reliably derive much of value on polls on such extreme views.PS: Please note: I'm not interested at all in re-entering the endless for-and-against the Gaza war, just commenting on the issue of the usefulness or otherwise of such opinion polls.

Richard Carter ● 31d

Ms Holliday'Also, I think that the responses of a pool of 2,092 respondents is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Had the pool been ten times bigger or more, I would listen to the outcome'.Well I have no doubt you are an expert in the statistics and organisation of public opinion polls.Especially a methodology known as multi-level regression and post-stratification (MRP) YouGov uses in its political polling.YouGov is currently predicting the voting intentions of the electorate for the next election as being Conservative 20% and Labour 47%.If you don't believe this I suggest a trip to William Hill to see if you can get better odds !

John Hawkes ● 31d

No polling organisation has the resources to survey 20 000 people. 1000 is a  typical sample size for political opinion polls, so 2092 in the case of Gaza is unusually large. I don't know anything about YouGov in particular, but polling organisations could not survive as commercial enterprises if they did not achieve broadly accurate results. In any case, what reason have you got to doubt the results on the conflict in Gaza?

Steven Rose ● 31d

Hello Steven,A lot of the so-called polls by YouGov are done online and every time you complete one, after every question, it says that the poll is not representative of national opinion.  Try YouGov.chat.Also, I think that the responses of a pool of 2,092 respondents is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Had the pool been ten times bigger or more, I would listen to the outcome.

Ivonne Holliday ● 31d

Hi IvonneI don't understand the comment that 'YouGov clearly state that their polls are not representative of national opinion'. How could a polling organisation possibly make such a statement, which would undermine their very raison d'etre? How could they possibly know what the 'national opinion' is except through a properly conducted survey? The survey on attitudes to the conflict in Gaza was conducted in February 2024 on 2092 British adults of different ages and from different social classes. On the question of whether the attack by Hamas on October 7 was justified, 4% replied 'justified', 75% replied 'unjustified' and 21% said 'don't know'. Obviously a clear majority disapprove of the attack, but the figure of 4% who support Hamas is worrying. 4% of British adults amount to around 2 million individuals.

Steven Rose ● 31d

Well, Steven, it is quite extraordinary that YouGov clearly state that their polls are not representative of national opinion.Whoever published the poll, I am sure that the result was given a slant preferred by that publisher.  A very typical thing to do when peodple/entities interpret statistics.

Ivonne Holliday ● 31d

I'm sure Hamas are censoring and managing information; after all, they are now defined as a terrorist organisation even if they originally won an election. I wonder what they've said about their operation on the 7th October to people in Gaza? Is the average person in Gaza aware of the hostages? I suspect after being subjected to the Israeli bombing and evacuations, and now facing famine, the hostages aren't foremost in their thoughts? I have a natural skepticism about these things, but I am interested that the UK voted for the recent UN resolution and the US abstained, a distinct change in position. 

Michael Ixer ● 32d

What flippant remark did I make. Robert? Please explain! I feel a lot of sympathy for the hostages. I note their relatives often seem to protest against the Israeli government,  whose actions don't seem to be getting them released. I was just noting that no UK journalist seem to be able to access Gaza, not just BBC ones. The BBC have interviewed relatives of the hostages so I think it's erroneous to say their coverage is one sided. 

Michael Ixer ● 32d

Michael, there is no evidence that Israel is trying to hide anything. The Israelis have not attempted to arrest the Palestinians reporting for the BBC on Gaza, nor have they censored their reports. These reporters are free to show the scale of death and destruction in Gaza, which is nightly shown on our tv screens. The censorship or self-censorship is all in the other direction, demonstrated by the fact that the BBC reporters never interview Hamas supporters, let alone militants. They only ever speak to Palestinians who disclaim all knowledge of Hamas, and when they do, they never ask them embarrassing questions like ‘What is your opinion of the massacre of October 7?’ or ‘Do you think Hamas should release the remaining hostages?’ There are two possible explanations for this one-sided approach. One is that the reporters are part of the propaganda machine of Hamas, who aim to convince the outside world that Gaza is entirely peopled by innocent civilians with no links to terrorism. The other is that the BBC reporters would like to ask these questions but are afraid to do so. But it comes to the same thing. The reports are subject to unacknowledged Hamas censorship.

Steven Rose ● 32d

Michael l am sure the hostages also appreciate your flippant remarks.  This would end if they were released. Many have realised along time ago that the BBC reporting is biased.

Robert Wheeler ● 32d

Not being allowed in means not being allowed in.'Most must be Palestinians that somehow have gained a right to reside here.'What a very strange idea.

Philippa Bond ● 32d

Mr Hawkes. To my knowledge they're not being allowed in by that route either. Of course, it's difficult to get to the truth of what's happening but I don't think any western (UK, US, EU, etc) journalists are being allowed in which is why the reports that come in from journalists that haven't been killed in the conflict are from Palestinian ones. I think given the number of deaths your flippant comment about pyramids andhalf term is inappropriate.  Whatever the true is that attitude and lack of empathy by its supporters might be why Israel is losing the PR battle? That's just a personal observation ...

Michael Ixer ● 32d

Mr Ixer'No BBC journalists are being allowed into Gaza by the Israeli authorities'. Have they not tried the Egyptian route ?Could also take a half-term break at the Pyramids !

John Hawkes ● 32d

Mr Hawkes and Mr Rose. No BBC journalists are being allowed into Gaza by the Israeli authorities. I draw the conclusion from that the Israeli government might be hiding something, not that the BBCis biased. I would also assume that as the US abstained in the last US vote their intelligence information suggests the IDF isn't acting entirely within the rules ... purely speculation on my part but the US seems to be losing patience with their Israeli allies? One has to wonder why? 

Michael Ixer ● 32d

The poll was conducted by YouGov.

Steven Rose ● 32d

Recent polling has found that over 3 million Britons want all Jewish presence in the Middle East eliminated’That is indeed very worrying. It would be helpful to know who carried out the polling and where.

Jane Carter ● 32d

Mr RoseMore good points; everyone of them true.The "over 3 million Britons want all Jewish presence in the Middle East eliminated through mass expulsion and a similar number say that the October atrocity was ‘justified’ " comment is a terrifying one.Who are these people ?Most must be Palestinians that somehow have gained a right to reside here.Though I am not claiming all such take this view; just the majority.Then there are possibly members of Islamist groups such as the Muslim Association of Britain, Cage and Muslim Engagement and Development (MEND).And perhaps members of the banned group Al-Muhajiroun whose founders Mohammed Sufiyan Choudry and Omar Bakri Muhammad (who also set up Hizb ut-Tahir), were  convicted of organising terrorist speeches and encouraging support for so-called Islamic State (IS).Or even followers of Abu Hamza al-Masri, the notorious 'Captain Hook' iman of Finsbury Park Mosque now doing life in the US ?But to be racially neutral the small number of white fascist 'nutters', members of the BNP and its numerous splinter groups, would probably take the same view.But I maintain a consoling belief that the typical shopper in Tesco or parent at the school gate or supporter of Chelsea do not hold the views of immigrant Palestinians or their unthinking fellow travellers, now complemented by the Pythonesque 'Energy Embargo for Palestine' group (which I have said before is probably not affiliated to by Saudi Arabia or Iran).They just want to get on with their lives. I totally agree with you about the BBC.'In contrast the BBC to my knowledge have never interviewed a Hamas supporter in Gaza. The people whom their reporters choose for interview always disclaim any knowledge of Hamas and accuse Israel of unprovoked aggression. The impression given is that Israel is filled with warmongers, while Gaza is peopled entirely by innocent civilians'.Whatever they claim, it is an organisation that would find it difficult in today's political and higher education  environment to hire journalists that have not been imbued with the attitudes you describe.Thus they apparently hire local journalists in Palestine to report on what they claim to be occurring, some with their Palestinian bias recorded on Twitter.Not unreasonable under the circumstances I guess for any dispassionate reporter would not only be ignored by Hamas but likely fear for their safety.And yes, haven't their actions on 7th October 2023 so quickly been forgotten.Still now Hamas have gained control of Gaza (albeit their true leaders are on the beach in Qatar) I have no doubt they are planning full and free elections - just as in Israel.

John Hawkes ● 32d

Ms Holliday'It is impossible to have a grown-up conversation with you.  If you do not read all posts it is your problem.  That does not give you the right to insult me'.I am intrigued you do not feel my comments worthy of participation in 'a grown up conversation'.That is your opinion however and you have a right to hold it.If you feel I have insulted you I apologise.Not my intention.Please reply with the comment I have made that has so offended you and I will attempt to choose my words more carefully.

John Hawkes ● 32d

That is to say, Hamas have administered Gaza since 2006 with a considerable measure of popular support, belying the notion that they are an isolated group of terrorists.

Steven Rose ● 33d

Recent polling has found that over 3 million Britons want all Jewish presence in the Middle East eliminated through mass expulsion and a similar number say that the October atrocity was ‘justified’. In my opinion the frightening rise in antisemitism is fuelled by media coverage of the conflict in Gaza, notably by the BBC. BBC correspondents in Israel only ever seem to interview right wing extremists like Daniella Weiss, who has several convictions for obstruction and assault. They never seem to speak to ordinary Israelis who just want to live safe from attack in their own country. In contrast the BBC to my knowledge have never interviewed a Hamas supporter in Gaza. The people whom their reporters choose for interview always disclaim any knowledge of Hamas and accuse Israel of unprovoked aggression. The impression given is that Israel is filled with warmongers, while Gaza is peopled entirely by innocent civilians. This kind of journalism is biased and misleading. Fanatical settlers are not representative of the Israeli population as a whole, while the Palestinians are  not all as depicted. Who were those civilians rejoicing wildly on October 7 when the half naked German- Israeli girl, who had clearly been raped, was paraded on the back of a truck through the streets of Gaza? It should be remembered that Hamas are not just a terrorist organisation. They are a political party who won an election in 2006 and have administered Gaza ever since.

Steven Rose ● 33d

Here is the piece:https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-chillingly-prophetic-beliefs-of-daniella-weiss-the-extremist-israeli-settler-367870/

Philippa Bond ● 33d

President Biden warned at the start of this that Israel should  be careful not make the mistakes the US made after 9/11.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/joe-biden-warning-israel-nod-mistakes-made-in-war-on-terrorThe ICJ have ruled that Israel must not commit genocide:https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/01/gaza-icj-ruling-offers-hope-protection-civilians-enduring-apocalyptic#:~:text=The%20ICJ%20found%20it%20plausible,under%20siege%20in%20Gaza%2C%20andThere are various pieces in the media about the problems caused by the Israeli right wing including this piece about the Israeli woman trying to illegally resettle Gaza (and more of the Middle East).

Philippa Bond ● 33d

Mr Hawkes,It is impossible to have a grown-up conversation with you.  If you do not read all posts it is your problem.  That does not give you the right to insult me.

Ivonne Holliday ● 33d

Ms Bond'It is hardly peaceful for any member of the Israeli Govt to be calling for Gaza to be nuked either'.Agreed it's a stupid statement to make.But in a country where free speech is a right, this person has a right to make one in the knowledge that what he calls for would never be sanctioned by Israel's government and hence never carried out.Hamas in its Charter however calls for the annihilation of Israel and the Jews and has as I am sure you would admit, already taken steps to make this happen.Control/governance/'ownership' of the West Bank is complicated.Wikipedia states - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank'Since the 1993 Oslo Accords, the Palestinian Authority officially controls a geographically non-contiguous territory comprising approximately 11% of the West Bank, known as Area A, which remains subject to Israeli incursions. Area B, approximately 28%, is subject to joint Israeli-Palestinian military and Palestinian civil control. Area C, approximately 61%, is under full Israeli control. Though 164 nations refer to the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as "Occupied Palestinian Territory", the state of Israel quotes the UN that only territories captured in war from "an established and recognized sovereign" are considered occupied territories.After the 2007 split between Fatah and Hamas, the West Bank areas under Palestinian control are an exclusive part of the Palestinian Authority'. I have no evidence to support me but I believe Israel would be quite happy to relinquish all control of the West Bank to the Palestinians as it did with Gaza before Hamas abused that control.Happy that is if it felt that the West Bank, like Gaza, was not a threat to its and its peoples' existence.This is unlikely to happen with the Palestinian cause being in the hands of aggressive and belligerent Arabs.

John Hawkes ● 33d

Ms Grant'And today fired rockets on Ashdod in southern Israel(the first since January). So ammunition is still available to Hamas'.Hamas gets unlimited supply of rockets from that liberal, democratic state (no sorry I meant to say misogynistic, theocratic autocracy) that is Iran.Which country if they lived there, would give women that post opinions on this Forum that could be seen as contrary to the Government position, the right to do so  ?Israel or Iran ?

John Hawkes ● 33d

Ms Holliday'"Is Israel supposed to tolerate on its border an army of over 20 000 militants who not only perpetrated a dreadful massacre but have threatened to repeat it ‘again and again’? And if not, how is Israel to remove this threat?"No, Israel is not supposed to tolerate on its border an army of over 20,000 militants from Hamas.  Israel has a far bigger army, not only in number but also on military capabilities plus incredible intelligence too plus that of its allies'.I note you do not answer Mr Rose's question above.And what's the point of them having a far bigger army if people like you object to them using it to defend themselves.

John Hawkes ● 33d

It is hardly peaceful for any member of the Israeli Govt to be calling for Gaza to be nuked either.I've seen film of that woman who is trying to resettle Jews on the West Bank before.  Why should some people have a choice of homeland and others not? 

Philippa Bond ● 34d

Yes, I believe Iran is providing weapons to Hamas.Also, Qatar is providing a lot of funding to them, in addition to Iran.Not good news!

Ivonne Holliday ● 34d

Who said peaceful and defensive?  You did because I certainly never have!

Ivonne Holliday ● 34d

Hello Steven,No, I am not better informed than you about Israel's military assets.  Google provided all the information!Your question was:"Is Israel supposed to tolerate on its border an army of over 20 000 militants who not only perpetrated a dreadful massacre but have threatened to repeat it ‘again and again’? And if not, how is Israel to remove this threat?"No, Israel is not supposed to tolerate on its border an army of over 20,000 militants from Hamas.  Israel has a far bigger army, not only in number but also on military capabilities plus incredible intelligence too plus that of its allies.I have no knowledge on the armed forces fields of expertise nor on intelligence corps.  Do you?But based on very well known books and films such as Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy; The Spy Who Came in from the Cold; North by Northwest; Bridge of Spies, Enemy of the State; Bond films, to name a few, I should think a lot of fiction is based on reality.  Hence, it could be assumed that the experts are very knowledgeable on how to combat elusive enemies.  Did you happen to see the BBC's website today? I am rather cynical about this, but:Jewish settlers set their sights on Gaza beachfronthttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68650815

Ivonne Holliday ● 34d

And today fired rockets on Ashdod in southern Israel(the first since January). So ammunition is still available to Hamas.

Lucille Grant ● 34d

Ms Holliday'All of the troops were wearing very identifiable uniforms.The latter is not the case with extremists/terrorists.  This is a very difficult war to fight for this very reason'!We might agree on this point at least.So how do you think Israel should fight these murderous terrorists especially as they tend to use civic buildings including hospitals as cover and also intermingle with Palestinian civilians ?Thank you for highlighting the anti-missile defences Israel has.It is comforting to think there is some protection from the Gazan rocket attacks. Apparently 'it uses different versions of the Iranian-made Fateh-110 surface-to-surface ballistic missiles which are road-mobile and can carry warheads weighing up to 500kg'. Sky News 11 October 2023'On Saturday alone, the militant group claimed it fired 5,000 rockets on Israel' CNN 13 October 2023.So is Hamas peaceful and defensive ?

John Hawkes ● 34d

Ivonne l don’t follow your logic.  From Steven’s eloquent post are you suggesting that Israel should just hunker down and suffer more attacks, rapes and murders.All countries have defences the UK included.

Robert Wheeler ● 34d

Hi IvonneYou are evidently better informed than I am about Israel's military assets. The multi-layered defence system may protect Israel from most of the missiles an enemy might send, but it would not necessarily guarantee protection from every missile. But how, in any case, does all this hardware enable the Israelis to eliminate the threat from Hamas? If there were a way of capturing or killing Hamas militants without harming the civilians whom they are using as shields, I am sure the Isrselis would have adopted it. But no one so far has explained how they should go about this.

Steven Rose ● 34d

Hello Steven,Yes, I did reply to your question though perhaps not a response you agree with or wish to consider. Allow me to expand:Israel has at least 10 Iron Dome batteries in operation, each containing 60 to 80 interceptor missiles. Each of those missiles costs about US$60,000.https://www.colorado.edu/asmagazine/2023/10/13/israels-iron-dome-air-defense-system-works-well-heres-how-hamas-got-around-it#:~:text=Israel%20has%20at%20least%2010,missiles%20costs%20about%20US%2460%2C000https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20385306Today, Israel is protected by a multi-layered defense array, which includes the Arrow-2, Arrow-3, David's Sling, and Iron Dome active defense systems. Together, they defend Israel against various airborne threats.https://english.mod.gov.il/About/Innovative_Strength/Pages/IMDO_Israel_Missile_Defense_Organization.aspx#:~:text=Today%2C%20Israel%20is%20protected%20by,Israel%20against%20various%20airborne%20threats.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Israel_Defense_ForcesIsrael also operates the MIM-104 Patriot missile defense battery, a prized US-made surface-to-air missile system that can neutralize everything from ballistic and cruise missiles to drones and loitering munitions.https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-used-new-arrow-system-first-time-stop-enemy-missile-2023-11#:~:text=Israel%20also%20operates%20the%20MIM,to%20drones%20and%20loitering%20munitions.Being called Israel's "new secret weapon", a "sponge bomb" is a kind of chemical grenade. It contains no explosives but can be used to seal off gaps or tunnel entrances.https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/what-are-israels-new-secret-weapon-sponge-bombs-and-how-they-work-4522254#:~:text=Being%20called%20Israel's%20%22new%20secret,off%20gaps%20or%20tunnel%20entrances.As far as I am aware, WW2 was fought in a few fronts.  The principal belligerents were the Axis powers—Germany, Italy, and Japan—and the Allies—France, Great Britain, the United States, the Soviet Union, and, to a lesser extent, China.All of the troops were wearing very identifiable uniforms.The latter is not the case with extremists/terrorists.  This is a very difficult war to fight for this very reason!The Hamburg bombings were organized by the Allies and, in this case, carried out by Great Britain and the USA. I understand it was called Operation Gomorrah.  I expect that the populations of France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Poland, Greece plus others must have been rather relieved.

Ivonne Holliday ● 34d

Mr RoseThough I agree with pretty much all you write about the threat posed by Hamas and other militant Arab groups towards Israel, I differ with you on this point -'Hamas cannot be compared with the might of Nazi Germany'It can in various ways.Firstly it has the same objective which is to annihilate all Jews (see their Charter).Secondly it has comparatively all the might it needs, as did the Nazis who wanted to overrun Europe, to achieve its aim of overrunning Israel.It is only the bravery and military sophistication of Israel that prevents it doing so.Keep up your good work of trying to get across to the 'whataboutery' posters on this site the reality and morality of what is actually happening in the Middle East.

John Hawkes ● 34d

PSConcerning the objection, raised previously on the Forum, that Hamas cannot be compared with the might of Nazi Germany, I would say that is is easy from the safety of Putney to underestimate the threat posed by Hamas. But if you were living in Southern Israel, fearing that you or your loved ones might be the next victims of rape, torture and murder, you would expect your government to do something to protect you. That is right now. But given time, Hamas might acquire from Iran or elsewhere weapons able to wreak even greater devastation.

Steven Rose ● 34d

Hi IvonneI do understand that there are civilians in Gaza. I mentioned them explicitly in my post. I also understand that it is possible to despise Hamas and criticise the actions of Israel at the same time. In fact I pointed out that critics of Israel are offended at the suggestion that they are apologists for Hamas. But I am afraid you have not answered my second question. How is Israel supposed to remove the threat of repeated attacks from Hamas? Israel may have an enormous army, but when Hamas militants fire from schools, hospitals and residential buildings, using the people of Gaza as human shields, it is impossible to eliminate them without causing civilian casualties. The analogy with the IRA is misleading. The IRA were a terrorist organisation operating within the UK and  consisting of fewer than 1000 activists at any one time. Though they killed some civilians in dreadful pub bombings and other terrorist outrages, they mainly targeted police and army personnel. Their aim was to achieve a united Ireland, not to wipe out the Protestant community of Ulster, nor to exterminate the population of the British mainland. Hamas, in contrast, have taken control  of a foreign territory where they enjoy considerable popular support. They possess an army of over 20 000 militants and their stated aim is to exterminate the Jewish population of Israel, as demonstrated by the atrocity of October 7. A better analogy of the conflict between Israel and Hamas would be the war between Britain and Nazi Germany. The RAF caused  more civilians casualties in a single night of bombing over Hamburg than the total death toll in Gaza, but Britain continued hostilities until the Nazis finally surrendered.

Steven Rose ● 34d

Mr Carter'strategic control (what the mayor has) and operational control (the purview of the Commissioner, Mark Rowley)'Perhaps you could enlighten us with examples of these different types of control especially with reference to the pro-Palestine marches.Would also be interested in your comments on the fact that the pro-Palestine movement has now joined a new alliance with protest groups linked to Just Stop Oil called 'Energy Embargo for Palestine' which closed down the British Museum yesterday.Probably a group that Palestine backer Saudi Arabia will not affiliate with !Seems to me there is great potential for an all embracing protest group covering everything everybody either supports or objects to.I'd march against Fulham FC selling Paulinho to Bayern Munich and to support the right of Keir Starmer to reaffirm that '99.9% of women 'haven't got a penis' even though it must seem insulting to the 0.1% of women that do.But then this latter minority group could also join the march.Anyone have other issues that they firmly support or oppose and would wish to declare publically in a 'March for and against everything' next Saturday ?

John Hawkes ● 34d

I disagree with you too, Steven Rose.It is a concept very difficult for you to grasp but it is very possible to despise Hamas and disaprove of Israel's actions at the same time.  The flattening of parts of Gaza is not acceptable.  It was equally unacceptable when the Syrian government did this to its own people with the assistance of Russia.Hamas were as pesky as mosquitoes and midges in summer when shooting rockets into Israel.  I never understood why Israel did not reply to them then.Your question:  "Is Israel supposed to tolerate on its border an army of over 20 000 militants who not only perpetrated a dreadful massacre but have threatened to repeat it ‘again and again’? And if not, how is Israel to remove this threat?"  For starters, Israel has an enourmous and very well trained military.  I Googled it and here is an article from The Independent which states that Israel has 173,000 active soldiers including 8,000 commanders plus 300,000 reservists called up to fight Hamas. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/idf-israel-military-power-iron-dome-b2437545.htmlIsrael admitted that, on 7 October 2023, it had let its guard down.Of course Israel must defend itself, something that it can do very well indeed and it has all the military and intelligence backup to do so very effectively indeed.But many people like you forget there are civilians in Gaza that have nothing to do with Hamas.  The population of Gaza City alone is 590,481 of which some 15,000 to 40,000 are in Hamas.  Quite a difference, would you not say?To conclude, it is very difficult to fight extremists and/or terrorists wherever you are in the world.  The IRA must have taught you this much.I very much doubt you would have agreed the British Army to flatten NI to erradicate the IRA.  Or would you?

Ivonne Holliday ● 34d

Hamas is all but defeated militarily. Their last hope is that peace campaigners in the West will put pressure on their governments to compel Israel to call a unilateral ceasefire. Unfortunately such a ceasefire would simply leave Hamas in possession of the hostages, whom they can use as bargaining chips, and in control of parts of Gaza where they hope to regroup and renew their attacks.Peace campaigners, motivated by sympathy for the civilian population, naturally take offence at any suggestion that they are antisemitic or apologists for Hamas. Some of this indignation has been expressed on the Forum. But in effect, however much they may dislike the implication, these campaigners are furthering Hamas’ cause for the reason given above. Their presence also gives respectability to the groups organising the demonstrations, some of whom make no secret of the fact that they regard the whole of Israel as ‘under occupation ‘, proved by the chants of ‘from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free’.The immediate solution is for Hamas to lay down their arms and release the hostages and for Israel to suspend its military campaign. Regrettably the demonstrators only demand the latter, but never the former. Some contributors to the Forum have tried to justify this one-sided approach by arguing, in effect, that there is no point in appealing to Hamas because they  are just a bunch of terrorists while Israel is a democratic country. In my view this approach simply favours Hamas.I have got two questions. Is Israel supposed to tolerate on its border an army of over 20 000 militants who not only perpetrated a dreadful massacre but have threatened to repeat it ‘again and again’? And if not, how is Israel to remove this threat?

Steven Rose ● 35d

Hello Richard,I agree with you wholeheartedly.We seem to be bereft of competent politicians all round.  Totally depressing!

Ivonne Holliday ● 35d

Well, Mr Hawkes,You will not be surprised that I disagree with you.I am not anti-Israel or antisemitic.  But I disagree most vehemntly with Netanyahu's strategies.I am most certainly against terrorism but certainly do not agree with the "strength of power shown by the powerful".I hope this post clarifies the situation of being anti-Netanyahu's policies and worrying about Palestians who are not pro-Hamas! I hope this is clear enough for you.

Ivonne Holliday ● 35d

Goodness knows there are enough reasons already to vote against the hopeless Tory mayoral candidate Susan Hall, but now she's added another one: she's so ignorant of how the Metropolitan Police is managed that she even doesn't understand the difference between strategic control (what the mayor has) and operational control (the purview of the Commissioner, Mark Rowley). Where do they find these deadbeats?https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/03/23/met-arrest-thugs-pro-palestine-susan-hall/PS: This is a comment on the candidate's (lack of) understanding; I'm not trying to reopen the discussion on what is or is not appropriate about the Gaza marches.

Richard Carter ● 35d

Mr Ixer'If you think the marches are anti Israeli'Of course they are and in my view they verge on the antisemitic in some respects.

John Hawkes ● 40d

Mr Hawkes. I suppose I'd agree that I'mlsi not sure to what extent these - and other marches - influence government policies,  which is why I rarely participate in any. It's perhaps more a way of expressing feelings - as with the marches about the lies and madness of Brexit? The person I had a conversation with about the recent marches wanted a ceasefire to stop the collapse of the Gaza health system and what appears to be the impending famine, both of which could devastate the population in Gaza.I'm not sure it's anything to do with marches but the US seems to be worried about the human catastrophe that might be caused by famine and a health system collapse in Gaza - perhaps it's the risk of the Democrats losing votes in the Presidential election that's more of a factor? Although the EU (and UK?) are now expressing concern. If you think the marches are anti Israeli, the social media posts in the US are a lot more direct, and from apparentyly normally moderate liberals - I'd guess you'd call them woke? Still, I suppose the real judgement will come after the conflict ends and the historians begin their analysis. I wasn't drawing parallels between the Ukraine and Gaza war per se, it was precisely that people weren't demonstrating about Ukraine because the government was acting but if they weren't acting would those objecting to the current protests have a different view if people were protesting for support of Ukraine? But I put it together in a hurry, as with this post - perhaps I could have used Black Lives Matter or Sarah Everard protests as examples; anyway surely the danger is only allowing protests one agrees with; as is the case in Russia. 

Michael Ixer ● 40d

Mr IxerI have never seen any statement made about what the objectives of these marches are.To me they look like a very one sided and aggressive expression of support for one side in the conflict and hostility towards the other.What do they want the UK government to do ?Everyone wants peace in the region and the end to the killing of people on both sides of the conflict.But how do these marches in the UK improve the chances of such ?After all, we are not providing any troops or arms to be used in the conflict, which let's face it is 'a game in which we have no skin'.All we can be accused of is not withdrawing our support for  Israel's right to exist and maintain its status as an independent state.And if these marchers are protesting against the killing of innocent children, have there been many banners and slogans that condemn the atrocities of 7th October 2023 perpetrated against children and their mothers from Jewish families ?  I find your attempt to conflate the Israel/Arab and Ukraine/Russian conflicts a little naïve.The UK is helping the Ukraine with arms and money to stop it being invaded and overwhelmed by a Russian unelected dictatorship.It is only providing Israel, which has already been invaded by the unelected Hamas terrorist group, with moral support so that it does not suffer the same fate.It is unlikely to change this stance until the Palestinians accept the right of Israel to exist.

John Hawkes ● 41d

Philippa, this war DID start on October 7th. Or did you miss the news that day? The restrictions you mention came about after the war began.

Lucille Grant ● 41d

100% this, Mr Hawkes. Millions of ££ spent policing these regular marches is not the best way of spending our money. Nothing that happens in the UK will affect what happens in Israel or Gaza/West Bank other than a refusal to supply arms to a fellow democratic state. That is not going to happen during the lifetime of this government. Meanwhile arms aplenty will continue to be supplied to Hamas by our enemies, Iran and Russia, where they can. 

Lucille Grant ● 41d

It did NOT start on 7 October.  Both Joe Biden and David Cameron have put restrictions on some of those who should not be causing problems on the West Bank and who have been encouraged by the Israeli Govt.

Philippa Bond ● 42d

Mr Hawkes, is there any evidence that 'tens of thousands of those protesting' aren't UK citizens, or perhaps refugees with permanent residence in the UK and likely at some point to apply for UK citizenship? I suppose some could be from wealthy arab countries here on student visas and perhaps feel if there parents are effectively helping to subsidise the UK's higher education system it's not unreasonable for them to protest against the killing of innocent children? I suppose if the UK weren't assisting the Ukraine with arms against Mr Putin you would also object to the many Ukrainian citizens here if they protested against the UK taking that stance? Obviously,  they don't need to protest as the UK is helping the Ukraine. As far as I'm aware the majority of protesters just want to see peace and the stopping of the killing. I have to admit the only person I've met recently who's been going on a march was an octogenarian white British retired fireman who has been a life member of CND and just wants peace; I don't think he had any strong religious views.

Michael Ixer ● 42d

Ms Bond'you can only see one side of this situation'.On one side of the situation I see the invasion of Israel by Palestinians and the rape, sexual abuse and massacre of Israeli women and children.Palestinians who seek the destruction of Israel but yet already have and govern their own territory - namely Gaza and the West Bank.Please describe the 'other side' please.And also explain your cryptic and Zen like reference to Saharan dust.Does it mean we should be prepared to accept many more with sand on their boots who have decided that this country is a better place to live than their homelands ruled by Hamas and the PA ?

John Hawkes ● 42d

Mr Ixer'the price of democracy' in our country seems to be allowing tens of thousands of non-citizens on to our streets to vent their spleen and implicitly attack an ally.And the original instigators of the killings in this dispute we must not forget were part of the same ethnic grouping.

John Hawkes ● 42d

Needless to say Mr Hawkes I disagree with you as you can only see one side of this situation.BTW have you considered all the other protests that take place  and will you be deliberating on which of those you think on be allowed.  Noticed any Saharan dust on your car or front door recently?  It is a far smaller world than you think!

Philippa Bond ● 42d

I suppose the price of democracy is the cost of policing people demonstrating that you disagree with. The alternative is Mr Putin's example of paying for the police to stop those you disagree with protesting - perhaps that's why he finds it cheaper to kill them?

Michael Ixer ● 42d

Mr Robinson'If we think we are rich enough to police the world then surely we can police peaceful protest?'I don't think we are rich enough to police the world.And as regards the Middle East it is not in our interest to take sides and do so other than to offer support to a fellow democratic state that is threatened with obliteration by barbarians.

John Hawkes ● 42d

Mr Brigo'"which we have no interest in" 'Speak for yourself'.Perhaps you are right and what I wrote was hyperbolic.I am interested in why so many display a deep hatred for Israel and its citizens yet show enormous sympathy for Palestine and as such seem to ignore the atrocities some of its citizens perpetrate.I really meant to say that the UK population as a whole probably could not care a toss what is happening far away in the Middle East and would wish our politicians and political media spent more time addressing domestic issues which they assume fall within their remit to fix.

John Hawkes ● 42d

If we think we are rich enough to police the world then surely we can police peaceful protest?

Ed Robinson ● 43d

"which we have no interest in"Speak for yourself

Michael Brigo ● 43d