Forum Topic

Rotten budget, again

Budgets that seem reasonable when they're announced often don't look anywhere near as good a day or so after, but this one was a stinker right from the start with, for example, its blatant but feeble attempt at electioneering with a small tax reduction (offset elsewhere).But, inevitably, it looks far worse in the aftermath. Dreadful is the Truss-level announcement about the plan to abolish NI without giving a thought to how that might be funded. And the one group who lose out are pensioners (who don't on the whole, for example, pay NI), who are the most likely group to vote for this benighted government: a staggering own goal. Yet another aspect, noted in the FT but curiously not trumpeted in the Tory press, is the decision to end the policy of letting local authorities keep all of the revenues from the sales of council homes. For the past two years this policy had reversed one of the nastiest of the odious Thatcher's policy of keeping the revenues for central government and was providing around a desperately needed £200mn a year to local housing budgets. So local authorities that are chronically short of money will be robbed of even more, just to help fund illusory tax cuts. What a hopeless chancellor Hunt is!

Richard Carter ● 51d44 Comments

We did have French, but don't think I was that interested. I didn't know why I would need it in the 60's, had to write on my hand in an exam, to make it look like I remembered something.

Barbara Stevens ● 46d

No, Barbara. Unfortunately the timetabling in my comprehensive school meant that I couldn't do French and history if I wanted to do Physics, which in the1960s was, for some reason, coupled with technical drawing, a discipline now completely redundant in the age of IT. Fortunately, i could do chemistry and everyone could do maths, geography, English language and literature, and a couple of practical subjects selected from woodwork, metalwork, domestic science or needlework.

Michael Ixer ● 47d

Ed. It's obvious that both industries I've quoted have a shortage of staff because those available to work select to apply for other jobs. Yes, it obviously a case of supply and demand. Fast food restaurants have got around this shortage by installing terminals to order ones own food, I don't believe the law would allow pubs to do that. From talking to people running datacentres those with IT training prefer to work in other areas: cybersec, AI, development. 

Or are you suggesting Tim Martin or datacentre ma agers are lying. I'm just forwarding the examples you asked for. I've nothing further to add to this.

Michael Ixer ● 47d

What Michael no French.

Barbara Stevens ● 47d

Michael,Hospitality has had pay issues - in fact I remember years ago one MP complaining about the minimum wage and being told it was not up to the taxpayer to subsidise their business.In the example you give the pay is not mentioned. There is still low economic activity in the UK Labour market.As for data centre jobs you are telling me the country that gave us the first electronic computer through the likes of Turin & Flowers can not produce IT students?The first part of correcting this is to educate the population about Turin & Flowers.If the UK had not hidden its history and instead celebrated it, then we would have ample IT staff.Ask any person in the street who were Turin & Flowers they probably will not know. The damage is unmeasurable. Every kid in the UK should know they could be the next Turin or Flowers - they do not. Social mobility has decreased. IT degrees incur the same level of student debt as other degrees.In short neither Labour or Tory have addressed the IT issues in 25 years!You can grow an IT person in 25 years - how much time do you think the blue/red flavours of Thatherism need???

Ed Robinson ● 47d

Ed, couple of links.
Hospitality (have you noticed some pubs and restaurants have changed closing times from 11pm to 10pm or 10:30pm?):https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/jd-wetherspoon-tim-martin-immigration-staff-shortage-brexit-covid-19-coronavirus-080709153.html
Data centres (a year/18 months ago I sat through a panel session at the ExCel Tech show that complained about the lack of staff applying for datacentre jobs):https://www.business-reporter.co.uk/human-resources/plugging-the-data-centre-talent-gap

Michael Ixer ● 47d

Michael, in that case give me some specifics of where there is insufficient UK workers (that there has not been greater than 4 years - 7 years for doctors) and I will look into it.

Ed Robinson ● 47d

Ed, I did not specify health services, just services. I don't think there's a cap on people being trained to work in hospitality or datacentres - to name a couple of service industries - but I've heard complaints from both that they can't ger sufficient workers.

Michael Ixer ● 47d

There is absolutely no evidence that the UK can not supply enough of its own doctors and nurses if it so wished.To imply there is insufficient workforce due to the aging population is just nonsense.Each year the number of doctors trained in the UK is capped.Student loans, the removal of bursaries not to mention low wages and conditions are the barriers.The UK continues to recruit from abroad including red list countries with huge fees being paid to middle people in some cases.Should we welcome health professionals from around the globe? Absolutely. They may have come here for a variety of reasons and professional people migrate.But that does not mean we be dependent upon recruiting from abroad and applying short term fixes over decades.Good wages & conditions are not just necessarily to attract staff but to retain them irrespective of where they have come from.Is there a link between those proposing being dependent on importing labour and those that support low wages & conditions? Almost certainly!After all if you do not respect your home grown workforce you are unlikely to respect newcomers as we saw during the Brexit campaign!

Ed Robinson ● 47d

Mr Hawkes Perhaps as the UK has an ageing indigenous population we need younger immigrants to carry out the services needed to do the tasks and generate the wealth the UK needs to support its ageing population.Why not speak English if you can? Why did my friend from Wales when by chance he met some old school mates from Angelsey in the Queen Adelaide drop into Welsh to talk to them? Why, when a US friend who was a Professor in Russian literature bumped into a family from Belarus living in the UK swap to Russian for a conversation on the #85 bus to Putney? Perhaps it just seemed more natural? English isn't the only language, although it's often used as the common language by my German, French, Italian, Dutch, etc colleagues, friends, relations. I'm sad and embarrassed that the only language the UK's education system taught me was English. 

Michael Ixer ● 47d

Mr Hawkes,"Topic: This is unforgivable! Posted by: Ivonne HollidayDate/Time: 17/02/23 10:12:00NHS battles sewage leaks as repair backlog growsSewage leaks are causing hospitals a host of problems as the backlog in repairs and maintenance grows.Hospitals in England reported patients slipping on sewage, staff becoming ill, and leaks in A&E departments, cancer wards and maternity units.It comes after the repairs backlog grew by 11% in the past year to a total of £10.2bn.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64653482"Please also see:  htpps://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/nhs-sewage-leaks-england-hospitals-london-ed-davey-lib-dems-b1061037.html#:~:text=The%20leaks%2C%20totalling%20456%2C%20saw,reported%20over%20the%20past%20year.So yes, the infrastructure in hospitals is not being maintained.  I find this disgusting and unforgivable. I have never doubted the quality of medical treatment at NHS hospitals.  From personal experience, there are not enough superlatives to describe how truly brilliant they are.As for the striking junior doctors and consultants, do you remember how we all clapped during COVID to show our enourmous appreciation for their dedication?  Clap for our heroes happened every Thursday evening for some 10 weeks?  As some of the placards during their strikes said, clapping does not pay bills.  I do not blame them for asking for salary increases taking into consideration that their salaries were virtually frozen for 10 years.You say: "They are obviously in it for the money as much as altruistic public service, and even the most junior are not on the same wage as a barista."  No, that is not true.  Being a doctor is a vocation not a money making machine.  As for junior doctors, I did post some time ago a link to the BMA's table containing the rate of pay.  And, yes, junior doctors were being paid, for the first two years I believe, some £14 per hour.  And that is after some 5 or 6 years of studies......As for GPs, they are independent contractors with the NHS.  This has been the case, I understand, since the creation of the NHS in 1948.  Most GPs treat only NHS patients, work to NHS guidelines and uphold the principles of the NHS. They are not seeking a business advantage or profiteering. https://lowdownnhs.info/explainers/are-gps-already-privatised-or-still-part-of-the-nhs/That changed when outsourcing was brought in.I hope this helps.

Ivonne Holliday ● 47d

Mr Ixer'Perhaps the NHS would collapse without immigrants? And the ones not speaking English in the waiting room might be British and bilingual ... they may not be but do you have evidence of that?'I am sure it is true that the NHS would collapse without migrants.However their presence represents a financial arrangement the country has with them.We allow residency in a place and under terms that are much better than they obviously would expect in their countries of origin.They provide us with a service that we need and do not have indigenous resources to provide.Fair dos.But my point is how many immigrants are there that have contributed little or nothing to the service the NHS offers them ?Are we providing and paying for an International Health Service ?Of course I have no proof that those I mention not speaking English are not actually fluent in our national tongue.If so why not speak it ?Nor do I know that they are not as British as me in terms of residency and citizenship qualifications. I just don't get that impression and wonder how much more the NHS can accommodate when inward migration levels are as reported by the BBC on 23/11/23 using Government data.'The net migration figure to the UK for 2022 has been revised upwards to 745,000.In May, figure for 2022 was given as 606,000 - a record at the time - and that was today revised up by 139,000.At the same time, new figures for the 12 months until June 2023 show net migration to the UK of 672,000.The figures show the number people arriving in the UK, versus the number leaving.Immigration in the 12 months to June 2023 was 1.2m - emigration was 508,000.The vast majority of immigration was from non-EU countries - 968,000'.And of course such immigration levels must be having an affect on our schools and particularly housing as is indicated by reports of the shortage of such and the rising costs of rental accommodation. It is not racism to highlight these facts if for no other reason it concentrates the minds of politicians of all persuasions on the fact that all of this represents a major set of practical problems that must be addressed and not glossed over.But I doubt the topic will be given major prominence in any Party manifesto.

John Hawkes ● 47d

Mr Hawkes.  An observation: when I was having my cataract operations at Kingston Hospital my first surgeon was a Muslim from the Middle East, my second surgeon was white British, all the other doctors/nurses I saw for pre/post appointments were first or second generation immigrants (African/Asian) or European (I assume moved to the UK before Brexit). Perhaps the NHS would collapse without immigrants? And the ones not speaking English in the waiting room might be British and bilingual ... they may not be but do you have evidence of that? 

Michael Ixer ● 48d

Ms HollidayI have nothing but praise for the treatment I am receiving from the NHS at St George's for a potentially life threatening condition.I also think that a health service free at the point of delivery is a prerequisite of a civilised society.Hence I am more than happy to have paid higher rate income tax for some 50 years to fund it.Though when I sometimes share a hospital waiting room with many that do not speak English and hence probably have not chipped in that much to fund the system, my feelings of a willing generosity to my fellow men sometimes waver.Unfortunately there is no cure I know of for mild forms of misanthropy !Is the NHS collapsing ?I don't recognise this phenomena.Is tax the best way to fund the service ?I am not an expert here.I believe the French health service is insurance based and those there who are quick to take umbrage on so many matters seem quite content with this.And perhaps it would result in a system where those that could pay more do so in order to help out those that can't.Extended waiting times in themselves indicate little other than we (or some of us !) are all getting older and medical science seems to have the means to keep us going on and on.How much more and by what means are we willing to fund this?Which Party at the next election will say it will put up income tax to increase health cares spending?As for striking hospital doctors and particularly consultants, this at least gives the lie to the claim the service is delivered by saints making huge financial sacrifices on our behalf.They are obviously in it for the money as much as altruistic public service, and even the most junior are not on the same wage as a barista.Google what they do earn and don't forget to factor in gold plated pension provisions.Is it money or lack of it that is causing NHS staff to quit ?As for health care in Australia according to Wikipedia -"Health care in Australia operates under a shared public-private model underpinned by the Medicare system, the national single-payer funding model. State and territory governments operate public health facilities where eligible patients receive care free of charge. Primary health services, such as GP clinics, are privately owned in most situations, but attract Medicare rebates. Australian citizens, permanent residents, and some visitors and visa holders are eligible for health services under the Medicare system. Individuals are encouraged through tax surcharges to purchase health insurance to cover services offered in the private sector, and further fund health care".This is the system that apparently is now full of expatriate British medics working from their surf boards on Bondi beach.Doesn't seem that wonderful or different to me.You are obviously well aware that all GP practices are private businesses.Mine gives me a good level of service, though I doubt if this would decline if it were American owned.In fact American entrepreneurship could perhaps lead to improvements.Finally my views on most matters are a result of a synthesis formed from a triangulation of comment gained from the BBC, the Guardian and the Mail.Yours ?

John Hawkes ● 48d

Rachel Reeves confirmed this morning that Labour will not repeal the reduction in NI if they win the election. It is pretty clear that the policies of the  Labour and the Conservative are now virtually indistinguishable.

Steven Rose ● 49d

I would not argue with that.It all depends on what the books look like.  Judging from the little information we have, I think it would not be incorrect to say that the coffers will be rather empty.Is it a rotten budget?  I would say it is.  It certainly was not a budget geared to encourage growth.  The 2% reduction in NI is, honestly speaking, not much of a reduction in taxes - neither will it prevent further cuts to public spending, especially to the NHS.

Ivonne Holliday ● 49d

It seems that the key element of the 'rotten budget', the 2% reduction in National Insurance, is not going to be repealed by Labour if they win the next election.

Steven Rose ● 49d

The PFI was not a good idea - I agree. Sadly, it was not improved since the conservatives took over.

Ivonne Holliday ● 49d

Almost starting to look forward to Starners lot getting in seems ( as my mum used to say) they're gonna sh.. miracles and work wonders.Seem to recall last time they just lumbered the hospitals with piles of debt through the PFI.and still didnt solve anything, but let's see.

Andy Pike ● 49d

I remember my Dad had it and used to get a bit towards his glasses and teeth.again I think it was a work place type scheme.

Andy Pike ● 49d

Yep, Andy your right. you can google it, it was founded in 1922 to help fund Hospitals and to stop them closing. It did help with Dental costs and Physio or if you went into hospital.  Shame they never told me what I was paying for.

Barbara Stevens ● 49d

Andy, probably was my Uncle who worked at Cadby Hall, used come to our house and collect it. I'm talking about in the 60's and 70's. I had only just started work. Never got told what I could do with it.

Barbara Stevens ● 49d

Mr Hawkes,If you can, and have the time, try visiting one hospital building.  I seem to remember that either Kingston or St George's had sewage leaks in some wards not long ago...Of course there is nothing written about imposing an insurance-based health system as it would not be politically wise.  However, Ian Duncan-Smith and I think Jacob Rees Mogg have expressed they would prefer an insurance based system.I am not going to try and find any evidence for you other than say that even The Telegraph has reported on extensive/extending waiting lists, loss of doctors and nurses to foreign lands, the doctors' and consultants' strikes.I would have thought that the latter is proof that all is not well in the NHS.Also, the purchase by American health care providers of GP  surgeries in the UK could be an interesting clue.  Please see:https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2023-06-05/debates/3050686A-DABA-4065-ABB7-2F9C8582E3E7/NHSGPSurgeriesPurchaseByUSCompanieshttps://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/centene-sell-gp-clinics-hospitals-uk-market-exit-ft-2023-08-30/For your information, I read many newspapers of different political inclinations as I try and find a balance between them all.  You could hardly say that The Telegraph, which I expect is the only one you read, is unbiased.

Ivonne Holliday ● 49d

I thought hsa (as was) was a form of private health insurance that you could used towards dental costs  glasses etc.It wasnt a govt scheme.

Andy Pike ● 49d

Ms Holliday'I think it all adds up to dismantling the NHS, the State pension, establishing an American-style of health care, no social care and an American-style tax system.  That has been the dream of some in the Conservative Party for some time'.Some hard evidence please; quotes and policy statements from official Conservative Party spokespeople not what you surmise some members are dreaming.Guardian Opinion pieces will not count !

John Hawkes ● 49d

Ed, I'm OK with my Pension, been getting it years. Just wondered what HSA really was, don't hear of it now. It was Hospital Savings Association. If I went into hospital I just said I also paid Hospital Savings Association.  Don't know what difference it made.

Barbara Stevens ● 49d

Barbara you could try the following government website:https://www.gov.uk/find-pension-contact-detailsThe government it appears is not just there to make your person disappear but also help you find it :)

Ed Robinson ● 49d

I had not forgotten it.  I think it all adds up to dismantling the NHS, the State pension, establishing an American-style of health care, no social care and an American-style tax system.  That has been the dream of some in the Conservative Party for some time.I totally disagree with dismantling the NHS and with the sad state it is in at the moment.  The NHS has always been one of those emblematic institutions that made the UK quite unique.  The saying goes: There can be no change without continuity and there can be no continuity without change.  This is a far cry from destruction.

Ivonne Holliday ● 49d

I always thought NI was for your Pension and NHS. When I worked at Potterton's I was also given Private Health and a Private Pension. When I was younger at work I also paid HSA, my Uncle Collected it from our family don't know where the money went or really what it was for.  Anybody else know? He's been dead years so unable to find out.s

Barbara Stevens ● 49d

Yes NI has a long history of dishonesty.This article from 2020 covers part of that including a bit of Gordon Stealth Brown. Which is why many ignore budget day and wait for the small print.https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/feb/22/a-truly-bold-chancellor-would-scrap-national-insurance-patrick-collinson

Ed Robinson ● 49d

I'd forgotten about that: Johnson raised it by adding a new 1.25 per cent health and social care levy  as a way of tackling the NHS backlog and reforming social care. I don't know what happened to the reform of social care, presumably yet another Johnson broken promise.https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/national-insurance-rise-today-boris-johnson-b20

Richard Carter ● 49d

Maybe I dream it but I thought Boris RAISED national insurance with a promise that the funds raised to go towards fixing social care and making sure that none of us have to sell our homes to pay for our end of life care?What has happened to that? It was a flagship policy at the time.

Michael Brigo ● 49d

There is no reason why income tax contributions could not be used to determine state pension eligibility once National Insurance is abolished.Pensions are paid out of today's taxation or money printing to be more precise. The original purpose of NI is long gone. There is no real argument for keeping it.Making work pay is not an own goal as some have stated. It's the traditional view held by working people. Possibly a majority of people?Many hard working mining towns became areas with no work and people living on benefits that were largely hidden from official numbers. In short they cooked the books.We can not afford to do that anymore. Successive mismanagement, squandering resources such as North Sea oil, we have very little to privatize. Mass immigration has been tried and abused.Unfortunately we live in a country with parrot politics. Selective cut and paste and cheap sound bites.Abolishing National Insurance makes absolute sense. The question should be how are we going to do it not if we should. Merging with income tax is one way.I wonder why people that do not want it abolished??

Ed Robinson ● 50d

I think we've lost sight ofthe original idea of National Insurance. As I understand it was something you paid into to cover the NHS and payments for when you weren't working: unemployment benefits, sick pay, and state pension (when one retired from work). In practice it hasn't covered those things - well not that I remember - so income and other taxes make up the shortfall. .

Michael Ixer ● 50d

Of course the government could abolish National Insurance, a tax on those that get their income from wages.It could merge it into income tax.The full amount of employee national insurance wouldn't need to be added to the lower rate of income tax because income tax impacts more people.Taxing workers significantly more just  because they get their income from wages has done untold damage to the country and the work ethic. But it suits many of the Thatcherite red and blue supporters.

Ed Robinson ● 50d

Ouch!

Ivonne Holliday ● 50d

"Well, we've screwed the economy all right but this job seems to be a bit harder..."

Richard Carter ● 50d

I don't think the government can logically be accused of electioneering if it has decided to reduce NI, a tax which pensioners, a group which is most likely to vote Conservative, don't pay.

Steven Rose ● 51d

Reducing stamp duty seemed to be a successful way in encouraging people to downsize from overlarge homes.

Philippa Bond ● 51d

The govt always recalled any unspent monies from rtb sales. The money can only be spent on replacement housing it is not to underpin any other council service. Seems the govt have just removed the incentive for councils to actively push rtb, maybe not a bad thing.On the budget overall we pensioners have done pretty well in the last couple of years on the triple lock. Yes it would be nice if the thresholds went up but any pensioner paying tax obviously has either a job or a private income so of course they should share the load.On the budget generally folk are saying it's the highest tax burden since 1948. Funny that zs in 48nwe were repaying debts incurred from WW2 and in 2024 debts incurred in the pandemic when hundreds of billions were spent keeping people safe at home. We can argue about PPE etc but the major doend was furlough and we all new it had to be paid back.we have also had these energy handouts and cost of living payments in the last 2years that too has to be paid back from somewhere.There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Andy Pike ● 51d

Incorrect, Mr Hawkes, by miles!I do not vote labour and I certainly will not vote conservative.  The current lot calling themselves conservative are an insult to the traditional conservatism.

Ivonne Holliday ● 51d

True Mr Carter,Where will Councils find the money to house annually the 600,000 or so immigrants to the UK that are expected ?

John Hawkes ● 51d

Ms HollidayOh dear !Do you and Mr Carter share a subscription to the Guardian !

John Hawkes ● 51d

I dislike Jeremy Hunt enormously.As I replied to Mr Hawkes under the "stealing the non-dom policies from Labour:"I dislike Jeremy Hunt immensely!!!I think Philippa Bond described him to a T: "BTW Jeremy Hunt continues to remind me of the snake in the Jungle Book as I can just imagine him singing that song "Trust in Me" while trying to hypnotize me...!!"Slimy, slithery, sneaky, devious, sly, dishonest and much more."The budget reflects Jeremy Hunt's personality perfectly.  Destroy the NHS, help you friends and forget the rest.

Ivonne Holliday ● 51d