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Sunak and integrity: how has that gone?

When he took up the job of prime minister, Sunak promised “integrity, professionalism and accountability,” welcome words after the previous holders’ lack of compassion (May), lack of integrity (Johnson) and lack of any competency (Lettuce Liz): how has that worked out? We’ve found out this week.Setting aside his welshing on the £1,000 bet with Piers Moron (“I’m not a betting man,” he said “it took me by surprise” – let’s hope the Russians don’t see this) and the tasteless attack on Starmer on trans issues as if they weren’t bad enough, I think even worse was his smearing of Starmer in an interview with Moron, in which he said that Starmer was “on the side” of a major Islamist group and suggested he was a “terrorist sympathiser”.What’s the background to this? Before he was Leader of the Labour Party, before he was Director Public Prosecutions and even before he was an MP, Starmer, working as a lawyer, represented the Islamist group Hisb ut-Tahir in a court case (and I hold no brief for them, before someone accuses me of being an Islamist supporter). Discussing this, there came this exchange (quoted from the Telegraph)Mr Morgan then asked: “Do you think he is a terrorist sympathiser?”Mr Sunak responded: “Well I would say let the facts speak for themselves, right?”Sunak doesn’t (or won’t) understand certain basic principles of the law, in particular, that you’re innocent until proved guilty and that you are entitled to legal representation if a case is brought., so he went ahead and accused Starmer of being a terrorist sympathiser. What an utter disgrace the man is!

Richard Carter ● 78d43 Comments

Mr Carter'This is utterly pointless discussion. You have nothing to offer but mindless smears ("the overwhelming minority," whatever that's supposed to mean). I won't be responding to any more of this stuff, which is anyway completely irrelevant to the actual subject of this thread - which may I remind you is Sunak's lack of integrity. Thank you.'Mr Carter,There is a link between what Sunak said in PMQs recently and pointing out other instances where Starmer has made commitments which he has then backtracked on when the going got hot.His definition of what is a woman and whether such could have a penis is one just one example.Thus it was justifiable in the cut and thrust of Parliament for the PM to say what he did.'At PMQs, Mr Sunak listed what he described as a number of Labour U-turns, accusing Sir Keir of changing his position on "defining a woman"."Although in fairness, that was only 99% of a U-turn," he added.Starmer then had a sanctimonious hissy fit when this was pointed out to him.He had actually said 99.9% do not have a penis meaning on my calculation that about 30,000 do have.He also took some time to back a reversal of his party’s then policy on allowing people to self-declare a new gender identity on official documents.But let's consider what is going on in politically in Rochdale.In the '30s when Britain was pulling itself out of the Depression, an inspiring figure was singer and actress Gracie Fields.Born and bred in Rochdale and maintaining her local Lancashire accent, she put the town 'on the map'.Recently however Rochdale has gained recognition for the crimes of the Pakistani male grooming gangs and what they did to mainly white young girlsThankfully many were convicted and imprisoned but some it is said are still at large locally.Others are protesting against deportation orders to return them to Pakistan.Now the town is in the news for comments made by the then Labour candidate for the upcoming Rochdale by-election; a certain Mr Azhar Ali.Apparently he was heard to support the conspiracy theory that 'Israel deliberately allowed 1,400 of its citizens to be massacred on October 7 in order to give it the 'green light' to invade Gaza.  The Egyptians are saying that they warned Israel ten days earlier... Americans warned them a day before [that] there's something happening... They deliberately took the security off, they allowed... that massacre that gives them the green light to do whatever they bloody want.'When called out by the press he then said 'I apologise unreservedly to the Jewish community for my comments which were deeply offensive, ignorant, and false'.If that is truly what he believes, why on earth did he make them ?To gain support from the large Muslim community in the town ?Can his word be trusted ?He admits he is ignorant, tells lies and is happy to offend; but only Jews of course.Thus to my mind he is also obviously a racist.Initially the Labour Party maintained support for him saying that he had been taken in by conspiracy theorists.Bit dim obviously.However, the party subsequently withdrew support after it was reported  Mr Ali had blamed "people in the media from certain Jewish quarters" for the suspension of MP Andy McDonald from the Labour Party.And there is a published audio allegedly from the same meeting, in which Graham Jones, the Labour candidate in the Hyndburn constituency, used an expletive to describe Israel and said British people who fight in the Israel Defense Forces "should be locked up".Mr Jones was suspended by the party and is now facing an investigation.All of this proves that antisemitism still lurks within Labour if you turn up a few stones.There you might also find Dianne Abbott and Kate Osamor suspended from Labour ostensibly for this reason.But credit to Starmer for trying to stamp it out.Bearing in mind there is essentially no fundamental difference in economic policy between the Conservative and Labour parties, in my view there will be three key issues which will differentiate them at the next election. The first is the position they take on the Israel and Palestine conflict since the Hamas massacre of  women and children on the 7th October 2023; specifically how strong is the support they give for the right of Israel and the Jews to peacefully exist in the region and how much are they willing to compromise this to gain Muslim support.The second is the gender issue and what rights a male might have to declare himself a woman and hence claim access to women's spaces.The Party's leader seems to have a biologically peculiar and non-scientific understanding of what constitutes a woman which I would doubt accords with the majority view in the country.The third is its pledge to introduce a new Race Equality Act, allow equal pay claims based on ethnicity and disability, and introduce dual or intersectional discriminationHowever, such discrimination on the grounds of disability and race is already illegal and has been since 1965.Does it really believe this country is so racially discriminatory or is it just desperately reaching out for the non-white vote ? In its eyes is Britain 'institutionally racist' as many of its members claim ?So I think we are in for a lively but probably not very edifying election with attitudes on the above issues differing between 'the young' (but who will not probably bother to vote) and us oldies !   

John Hawkes ● 73d

That's a worrying attitude; should we only defend someone if we agree with them otherwise they shouldn't have justice? I'm sure Sir Kier had no sympathy with the extremist organisation he was defending - it would be in opposition to many things he stood for: sexual, gender, racial equality, etc - but as a civil rights lawyer (or any lawyer) he surely wanted to see his client had a fair trial? (The problem with the current Post Office scandal seems to be that too many lawyers, even some of the defence ones, were willing to take the money without really caring about seeing justice done.) As an atheist I'm not "pro" any religion but I don't see being "pro" Islamic much different to being "pro" other religion. I've worked and studied with Muslims and I think your use of "pro Islam" here would be insulting to them. Perhaps you meant pro religious extremists? (The region to is surely irrelevant?) In the early 90s when I was studying on my telecoms/networking post grad course I often went for a drink with a fellow student from Iraq with a Muslim background - it was very interesting to get his perspectives on various things like the first Iraq war. I think he'd have found the comment an Islamaphobic slur! (He and his English wife had left a very comfortable life style in Iraq in the 1980s where he was an engineer and refer to his wife's native Devon after he said some very unwise things about Sadam Hussein.) Anyway, perhaps also remember that Sir Kier provided pro bono support to the McLibel pair as they couldn't afford a lawyer and had to defend themselves - another poor example of English justice - but I don't think that makes Sir Kier a vegan?Sunak may not have meant it to be disrespectful (let's face it the taunt would have been preprepared by some lacky) but that just emphasises his lack of judgement in not skipping the comment about trans women and making a crass, insensitive and, some would say, ignorant comment in the circumstances. The main concern is that joking about matters concerning trans people is that it may lead to them being more targeted by abuse and violence, and it shows a lack of understanding by him that times are changing and the gender definitions are blurring. Ok, we know that there are two primary sexes - male and female - and a few intersex people - defined by chromosomes. However, we are still not sure why those with the same chromosome make up can be heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual. It's generally considered to be one or more factor based on genetics, epigenetics, hormones, microbiome, neurological conditions, physical development, environment, etc but it is now accepted that it's what someone is rather than a choice. So it seems sensible to accept that gender difference such as transgender where people feel uncomfortable on their birth body or asexual people who don't feel a desire for sex are influenced by these factors as well and thus defined on the LGBT+ gender spectrum. I consider it's an area being evolved and I like it to the theory of gravity: Newton's theory has served us well and still works for rocket launches, but Einstein determined it wasn't a force and was actually the curvature of space time that created waves as movement occurs - which has only been proven, well, as much as science ever is? - in the last decade. So I guess we're still learning about gender? I mean, why would someone who has lived several decades, for example, as a man go through the difficult process of gender realignment if there wasn't some driving factor to make them do it? So, perhaps it's not really funny? Interesting, the few people I've met who have don't seem to talk about it, they just want to be accepted for who they now are. Anyway, why do people care so much about people's gender?

Michael Ixer ● 75d

This thread began with an attack upon Rishi Sunak’s integrity based on his recent criticism of Keir Starmer. It is reasonable to examine whether his remarks are fair. In my opinion Rishi Sunak had a perfect right to mock Keir Starmer’s prevarication on the issue of gender. The Prime Minister intended no disrespect to the family of the murdered teenager. Indeed he expressed his horror at the crime.As regards Rishi Sunak’s interview with Piers Morgan, it is a fact that Keir Starmer defended Hizb ut-Tahrir, an Islamist organisation, during his former career as a barrister attached to Doughty Street Chambers, which specialised in civil rights cases. I am afraid that I don’t agree with the view that Keir Starmer accepted the brief on the basis of ‘next cab on the rank’. This was an international case to which the next cab rule does not apply. He voluntarily took up the case, leading a team of radical lawyers at the European Court of Human Rights to argue that Berlin’s prohibition of Hizb ut-Tahrir breached their human rights.This is not to suggest (and I don’t think that Rishi Sunak  meant to suggest) that Keir Starker is actually an Islamist sympathiser. He took up the case because he foolishly believed that he was acting in the interests of democracy by defending the civil rights of an organisation whose avowed aim was (and remains) to destroy democracy.I suspect that Keir Starmer now regrets his association with Hizb ut-Tahrir. But he has changed his mind about a lot of things lately, as confirmed by the numerous policy U-turns since becoming Labour leader.

Steven Rose ● 75d

I think the major problem with UK politics at the moment is the affective polarisation on display.So many people's opinions are so entrenched that they cannot begin to contemplate saying that the opposition party might be right about something, and/or the party they support is not right about something.Personally I have no problem saying that there are aspects (albeit only a few) of the current Conservative Government that I agree with and support. And there are a greater number of aspects of Labour's policies that I disagree with and do/would not support. (I said before that my political views most closely align with the Green Party). However, the balance in my own personal opinion is heavily in favour of the current opposition (Labour).If you do any form of political policy alignment quiz you will undoubtedly end up supporting at least some of the policies of each and every political party. And many people are surprised to find just how close their views align with two seemingly wildly opposed parties.https://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz is a good one.But much of politics today is simply fanatical and tribal. Many supporters/voters will object to an idea from their opponents purely because it is from their opponents. There have been numerous studies where people are polled about their support for a specific policy and will rabidly endorse it if presented as if it is from the party they align with, but rabidly oppose it if exactly the same policy is presented as being from the opposition.I see much of this on display on this very forum, which is why I generally try to stay out of the political debates. Some of the levels of stupid on display are mind-blowing. (I'm sure the usual suspects will be along soon to blame all of this on cyclists.)

John Kettlekey ● 77d

Watching the death throes of the Conservative party and its vehement supporters is fantastic entertainment.There's little point attempting to engage with people like Robert or Steven, their only recourse to reasoned debate is to attempt to poke holes in the positions of the people that haven't been in power for 12 years, whilst the country continues to fall apart.Most of the stuff that people complain about on this forum (staffing levels in shops, empty shops on the high street, policing levels and a rise in local crime, cost of living, etc) is a direct result of the misguided austerity policy and mismanagement of the country put in place by the current party in power, who a large number of people on here voted for and continue to vote for. The Tories only trick is to try and claim that a Labour alternative would somehow be worse, and the Tory supporters lap this up and peddle it remorselessly."Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband" - David Cameron 4th May 2015I'm loving the stability and strong Government we've had with Cameron/May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak since that tweet.Once the Tories lose power the party will fall apart and be a fraction of itself within a few years. With no realistic possibility of re-election for a few GE cycles the backing (both financial from donors and support of various parts of the media) will all but disappear and move elsewhere. There will be multiple alternative parties that come and go, happily splitting the centre-to-right-of-centre vote. Although one specific danger is a rise in some nationalist party that will further stoke the disassociation and hatred that fuels much of the support for the right currently.(I'm not a direct Labour supporter, my politics veer far more to the Green corner of things, but with the current first-past-the-post system in this country I'm more than happy to vote for Labour locally in order to oust the Tories - just like in 2019. ABC = Anyone But Conservative)Back on topic, Sunak is now completely out of his depth, and trying desperately to manage a crumbling party that is tearing itself apart with its infighting and positioning for an upcoming election. Who was it that said that it's over when a PM has to start governing from day to day rather than being out of the media and focusing on the long term?The Tory party can't afford to get rid of Sunak as they can't agree on who to replace him, and whoever they picked would only have support from a minority of the party. The barrel has already been scraped pretty deep. They can't afford to keep him as every day they are losing more and more ground to Labour. I don't see Sunak caring personally once this happens; he's a multi-multi-millionaire and will simply pick up his perks of being a former PM and disappear back off to the US.In 30 years' time the UK will look back at this era of politics with disbelief but mostly shame. It's not just Sunak to be fair, it's all of those past PMs since (and including) Cameron.So, keep voting Tory and keep complaining about the state of the country and somehow blaming it on the opposition for not coming up with a way of fixing it despite not being in power.

John Kettlekey ● 77d

The indignation over Rishi Sunak's throwaway comment on Keir Starmer's refusal to define what a woman is seems entirely confected. The mother of the murdered girl was not in the Chamber at the time, though she was visiting Parliament. But in any case there is no reason why parliamentary debate on an important issue like gender should be constrained by a single tragic event. Rishi Sunak meant no disrespect to the mother of the murdered girl and expressed both his horror at the murder and his  sympathy for the family.As to Keir Starmer's previous career, before becoming Director of Public Prosecutions, he worked in Doughty Street Chambers, founded by 'libertarian' lawyers specialising in human rights cases. So while it is true that all accused people have a right to legal representation, it is likely that Hisbut-Tahir (now a proscribed organisation) chose Keir Starmer as their barrister because they thought he would be sympathetic to their case.Keir Starmer's decision to ditch Labour's commitment to a £28 billion investment in the green economy is just the latest in a series of U-turns since he was elected Leader of the Opposition:1) he has deselected his 'friend and colleague', Jeremy Corbyn, whose campaign to become Prime Minister he fully supported at the last election2) he has ruled out both freedom of movement and a second Referendum, having previously argued in favour of both3) he has abandoned his pledge, made while running for the leadership, to take rail, mail, energy and water into public ownership4) he has rowed back on his commitment to end outsourcing in the NHS5) he has abandoned his plan to abolish Universal Credit6) he has dropped the commitment to abolish tuition fees7) he is no longer committed to guarantee childcare until the end of primary school8) he is no longer in favour of imposing a 5% tax increase on the highest earners9) his pledge to abolish the House of Lords will now take 'a back seat'.10) he will not now end the two child benefit cap11) he will not reimpose  the cap on bankers' bonuses.My interpretation of these astonishing U-turns is that Keir Starmer is completely out of his depth as a politician. Having grown up in fairly humble circumstances, both his parents being Labour supporters, he imbibed socialist values which as a lawyer he never had to evaluate seriously. His left wing opinions did him no harm at Doughty Street Chambers and certainly helped him to become Labour leader. But now that he has a good chance of becoming Prime Minister he has been forced to confront reality and he has belatedly realised that a lot of what he previously believed, or thought he believed, is at best impractical and at worst nonsensical. If Labour wins the next election, he is likely to be another in a long line of right wing Labour Prime Ministers. Personally I would rather vote for a genuine conservative like Rishi Sunak than a recent convert.

Steven Rose ● 77d