Forum Topic

The cost of policing Palestinian and 'Just Stop Oil' demonstrations

'It has cost an extra £41m to handle a series of Just Stop Oil actions and protests related to the Middle East conflict, he (Sadiq Khan) said'https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68079880.We Londoners will thus be likely paying more in Council Tax to cover - 1) for the direct actions of those taking a certain UK political position on climate change which could be put to the electorate if the participants felt confident of gaining their support.2) for the political disturbances caused in the main by Palestinians  who are not UK citizens, relating to an issue in 'a small country far away about which we know little', and one that the majority have no interest in and do not support.This will result in a 9.7% increase in the GLA precept set by Sadiq Khan to be added to our Council Tax bill.I thought Labour wanted to help hard-pressed working people !

John Hawkes ● 93d43 Comments

What happened to all those evening classes there used to be?  They meant you could carry on your education with classmates rather than just on your own computer at home which was a much more sociable way of carrying on education and was needed for those who dropped out of school for one reason or another.  This meant they could get the qualifications needed to start progressing further on a chosen path once they have an idea - or better idea -and more enthusiasm for a career path.  I know someone who was diagnosed with malnutrition while at university 20 years ago and I believe it is even worse now.  Youngsters couldn't deal with the lack of living expenses then and many decided they didn't want the ongoing tuition loans with high interest rates and consequent high debt.

Philippa Bond ● 68d

Steven, I agree in part with what you say: that universities are keen to given places to foreign students to rake in the higher fees. However, I believe that is not the whole story. Many students are concerned about taking on a lot of debt so are looking at alternatives. I noticed when I was taking some Open University science courses for interest round about 2009-2012 the demographics of fellow students started changing. Whereas previously the students had been of a similar vintage to me - plus or minus around a decade or so - a lot of younger people began studying with the OU as that meant they could work, earn money and learn at the same time and avoid high debts - although OU fees escalated meaning a lot of people studying out of interest stopped. Similarly, some students on finishing A-levels are rejecting university and taking to apprenticeships. The son of one of my cousins is now doing an apprenticeship with a global accountancy firm following his A-levels. This should, provided he passes all the exams, mean he becomes a chartered accountant: he's being paid and working on audits while studying but when he qualifies he won't have a huge debt and ought to be able to earn a high salary.

Michael Ixer ● 69d

I don't think there is any evidence that fewer British students can afford to go to university. What is true that British students find it harder to gain a place at the university they want because the universities, to cover the shortfall in funding, are offering places to foreign students, who pay much higher fees.

Steven Rose ● 69d

Frozen tuition fees.  Universities wouldn't survive without foreign students.  They have to find their funding somewherenow that they no longer have the luxury of all that Govt funding and fewer UK students can afford to go to university. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-66786377

Philippa Bond ● 69d

Looks like they were at it again yesterday.Just as GB is a developing a new industry - namely opening its doors to thousands of 'students' to attend its higher education institutions (I think it correct that the University of Tooting is about to open with Sadiq Khan as its Chancellor), perhaps we should charge for pro-Palestine demonstrations. Were foreign Islamists to be charged say just £1 a head, this would bring in a good revenue stream.Then we could address the market potential of demonstrations by supporters of the Islamist Iranian government (no women allowed of course); the 'communist' regime in China; and the Putin led oligarchy in Russia.

John Hawkes ● 69d

Ms Bond'So I'm not quite sure what all the fuss is about except that the two chosen by Mr Hawkes to comment on are ones that he would not take part in'.I have to confess that the only protest march I have participated in was the anti-Iraq invasion march in 2003 when Tony Blair sided with George Bush to invade Iraq and attempt to kill Saddam Hussein for his alleged part in the Islamist attacks on the Twin Towers New York.This was not that I in anyway supported British anti-American Islamist sympathisers like the 'Stop the War' group, but because I felt it was a military overkill (sic) reaction and likely to be politically counter productive.I thought the best response would have been to implement extreme and stringent economic sanctions, and then for US and UK Special Forces to enter Iraq and simply assassinate Hussein, which might also have been welcomed by many Iraqis themselves, groups of whom he had ethnically cleansed in their thousands.Moving on, I see there was another pro-Palestine march in London yesterday though in numbers the Met state were less than the organisers claimed.For some a Saturday protest march seems to be the equivalent of going to a Premier league game - a weekly ritual !But the issue seems to be facing relegation in that yesterday only c.10,000 marched rather than 100,000+ at the end of last year.I also read that parts of East London were adorned with Palestine flags on public buildings and street furniture.This of course gives the impression that parts of our country are being annexed just like the Palestinians and their sympathizers say the Israelis have been doing to them in the Middle East.The local Council for the area is dominated by a Party named Aspire formed by and led by Lutfur Rahman, a politician of Bangladeshi origin with a very chequered political past.According to Wikipedia -'Lutfur Rahman was the leader of Tower Hamlets London Borough Council from 2008 to 2010 for the Labour Party, and was initially selected as that party's candidate for the 2010 mayoral election. After allegations of links to a fundamentalist group and of signing up ineligible voters for the selection process, he was removed as Labour's candidate, and left the party to contest and win the election as an independent candidate.He was re-elected at the 2014 mayoral election as the candidate for Tower Hamlets First, but the result of this election was declared null and void on 23 April 2015 when the Election Court officially reported Lutfur Rahman to be "personally guilty" of "corrupt or illegal practices, or both" (electoral fraud) under the Representation of the People Act 1983.[1][2] He was thus removed from his office with immediate effect and was also personally debarred from standing for elected office until 2021.[3][4] He was also struck off as a solicitor.[5]In 2018 he was involved in the founding of a new party, Aspire, and at the May 2022 local elections, following the expiration of his ban, he successfully stood for election to the mayoralty as the Aspire candidate, with the party also taking the majority of seats on the council'.That's why I would certainly not take part in a pro-Palestine march because I have no desire for the country to be dominated by groups and their leaders whose religious/political views I am firmly against. As for the 'Just Stop Oil' campaign my view is that if they think they have such a compelling case they should put it to the British electorate by their candidates standing in elections at all levels of government.And their campaign should demonstrate unequivocally how our economy and way of life can persist without the use of such a source of energy.

John Hawkes ● 83d

Sir Nicholas Winton's interview on HardTalk from when he was 105 and looking back on his life was very interesting to hear again.  It includes religion and the Middle East:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO63ajFFhDo

Philippa Bond ● 85d

The Qatar Red Crescent was supplying aid to Syria after recent earthquake.  Syria was being asked to urgently open border crossings so that other countries could swiftly help those who had been buried, injured and made homeless.

Philippa Bond ● 85d

There are thousands of demonstrations and marches every year. So I'm not quite sure what all the fuss is about except that the two chosen by Mr Hawkes to comment on are ones that he would not take part in.

Philippa Bond ● 88d

"But to equate both 'organisations' - Hamas and Israel (as you seem to do) definitely not."This is getting tiresome: I do NOT equate both organisations as you suggest, but deplore both Hamas's terrible attack of 7 October and Israel's OTT attacks subsequently. I don't know how to make this any clearer in the face of your relentless attempts to smear my position.

Richard Carter ● 88d

Mr Rose,Excellent comment !However there are some contributing to this thread who are determined to ignore reality for the sake of some 'balance' between the actions of a terrorist organisation that invaded a democratic state and the state that was subject to it.Can't for the life of me see why.To me it's simple decision over what is good and what is evil.

John Hawkes ● 88d

Mr Carter'In the real world, it's possible to oppose both. Got it now?'At a simplistic level it is possible to 'oppose' some of the ACTIONS carried out by Israel after it was invaded by Hamas on 7th October 2023. Those you condemn are perhaps trying to force Gazans to recognise the effects the actions of their unelected rulers result in and 'encourage' their opposition to them.But to equate both 'organisations' - Hamas and Israel (as you seem to do) definitely not.Hamas is a proscribed Islamist terrorist, antisemitic and fascist organisation with no political standing anywhere, which according to its Charter is intent on the destruction of Israel and all Jews that live there.Have you read this and do you agree with my reading of it ?Israel on the other hand is a multi-ethnic democracy with the free institutions such as we benefit from.It is also our ally and doubtless provides us with much intelligence to prevent Islamist atrocities on our streets.On 7th October 2023 Israel was invaded by Hamas from Gaza which slaughtered or assaulted (sometimes sexually) numerous women and children and took and is keeping many others hostage.  But strangely the BBC claims that to call its members terrorists is to show a bias -'Terrorism is a loaded word, which people use about an outfit they disapprove of morally. It's simply not the BBC's job to tell people who to support and who to condemn - who are the good guys and who are the bad guys'.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67083432Perhaps this is why you are so even handed regarding this issue.

John Hawkes ● 88d

To be honest,  Steven, I'd love to be proved wrong about the difficulty of erasing Hamas's ideology. However, I'm not sure comparisons with Nazis at the end of WWII works; when the Nazis were defeated there was no nation state or terrorist organisation to carry forward their ideology, whereas Hamas has allies in Iran (and possibly other states) and other terrorist organisations who may well carry forward their ideology to a new generation. And, of course there were other unintended consequence from WWII, namely the Iron Curtain that wasn't raised until the end of the 1980s. With the attacks on shipping in the Red Sea and drone attacks on US troops in Jordan who knows where the wider conflicts are leading?

Michael Ixer ● 89d

It would appear that Qatar has been providing aid to Qatar:https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/qrcs-allocates-35-mln-gaza-relief-enar#:~:text=On%20Sunday%2010%20December%202023,QFFD)%2C%20QRCS%2C%20and%20QatarNot sure about other countries in that area. 

Michael Ixer ● 89d

While this war is happening Netanyahu's court appearances have been put on hold under emergency measures.  One of which was to do with the newspaper reporting of the news.Many journalists have already died and this one is currently missing including this Canadian/Palestinian one:https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/mansour-shouman-missing-gaza-canada-israel-b2486721.html

Philippa Bond ● 89d

Oh dear, another long essay: life is too short to have to wade through all this stuff. And I gave up when I reached the accusation being wheeled out, yet again, that the BBC lied/is biased because it reported initially that the Al-Ahli hospital blast was caused by the Israelis.To be quite clear, this was a mistake made in the heat of war for which the BBC quickly apologised. And the BBC were not alone in this initial accusation: a detailed analysis from the the US Military Academy's Lieber Institute for Law & Warfare reported that:"In the evening hours of October 17, 2023, reports emerged of an explosion at the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital in the Gaza Strip. The Gazan Ministry of Health spoke of a massacre, suggesting that at least 500 people were killed in what it claimed was an Israeli air strike on the hospital. This account of the events was widely repeated by major media outlets prompting several governments to condemn Israel and organizations such as Médecins Sans Frontières to express their horror at 'the recent Israeli bombing of Ahli Arab Hospital'.”So please, no more of this "BBC lie" nonsense, which with its tedious repetition serves only to discredit your argument.

Richard Carter ● 89d

I should have added that I do accept that John Hawkes' comment that the Arab countries could/should be doing more is a reasonable one.

Richard Carter ● 89d

"Surely 'the Arab World' will not let this happen ?Saudi, Qatar etc could surely fund the requirements which could pass into Gaza via adjoining Egypt."A fair point, superficially, where Egypt is concerned (Qatar is much further away and anyway very much involved in facilitating the negotiations over hostage release and a possible ceasefire). Egypt controls the Rafah crossing it's true, but any imports through it have first to be agreed by Israel, so it's not at all clear whether more supplies could be increased. What seems obvious in the surface may not be so easy when you look into it in more detail.

Richard Carter ● 89d

From the start of the conflict Israel has been accused of war crimes:  attacking hospitals, starving civilians, ethnic cleansing, mistreating prisoners and genocide.The thing that most of the people making these accusations seem to forget is that the party responsible for ghastly war crimes is Hamas, who on October 7 last year raped, tortured, mutilated and murdered over 1000 Israelis, desecrating their bodies in many cases, and took over 200 hostages, of whom over 100 still remain in captivity, where they are starved and beaten according to a released Thai hostage. The accusations of war crimes against Israel are mostly lies, invented by Hamas and disseminated by Palestinian sympathisers, including journalists and relief workers - lies which are unfortunately accepted as facts by well meaning people in this country.The first lie, disseminated by the BBC, was the alleged destruction by Israel of the Al Ahli hospital, which turned out to be a conflagration in the car park of the hospital  caused by a misfiring rocket launched by Islamic Jihad. then there was the supposed illegal occupation by Israeli troops of the Al Shifa hospital. Mishal Husain of BBC Radio 4 interviewed their Palestinian reporter, Rushdi Abualouf, who assured listeners that the hospital, which he had visited many times, was a purely medical facility. Even when the Israelis discovered Kalashnikovs, a car bomb and a tunnel at the hospital and later discovered footage of hostages being bundled into the hospital on October 7 in full view of doctors, Mishal Husain suggested that maybe they were being taken there for treatment.The accusations of a deliberate policy of starvation were first made by 'War on Want' back in October and repeated in December, supported by selective quotation from Israeli politicians. It is true that Israel has restricted the number of aid lorries coming into Gaza, presumably to prevent Hamas impounding food and fuel for their own purposes. This is not something I personally approve of but I can understand why the Israeli military are doing everything in their power to prevent Hamas from continuing their resistance. But I don't in any case believe that this amounts to a deliberate policy of mass starvation, as alleged.Israeli attempts to warn civilians to move from areas about to be attacked (which is more than the Allies did in World War Two, or Nato did when it bombed Serbia or the Coalition did in the Iraq wars) have been grossly misrepresented as ethnic cleansing. The accusation has been supported by selective quotation from Israeli politicians who do not represent the policy of the government. Netanyahu has made it clear that he does not wish to move the Palestinians out of Gaza but to retain military control, which, however controversial, is very different.The alleged mistreatment of prisoners stems from the picture of Palestinian men who were arrested in war zones that they were advised in advance to leave and who were stripped to their underpants. This was done to protect Israeli soldiers from concealed weapons and suicide jackets. The majority of the men were later released unharmed once it became clear that they were clearly civilians. This contrasts with the treatment of Israeli civilians by Hamas (see above).The accusation of genocide against Israel is not just false but patently absurd. The Israelis could have killed everyone in Gaza in a couple of hours if they had wanted to. Instead they have tried to minimise civilian casualties in a way that few, if any, invading armies in the past have tried to do, though tragically many civilians have died in the conflict. However I think it is shameful that the ICJ has taken the accusation of genocide against Israel seriously. Their decision also calls their objectivity into question. Is the ICJ going to consider a charge of genocide against Russia for the 10 000 civilian deaths in Ukraine, or against Syria, whose regime has killed literally hundreds of thousands of civilians and driven millions into exile?Concerning Israel's war aims, Michael casts doubt on whether Israel's plan to eradicate Hamas is realistic. It is sometimes said that Hamas is an ideology which cannot be eliminated by force of arms. But I don't believe that in 1945 anyone argued that Nazism was an ideology that could not be militarily defeated. Once the Nazi leadership was removed, it ceased to be a threat. I don't think that that the Palestinians' desire for statehood can or should be eliminated, but Hamas, a genocidal terrorist organisation, can be eradicated once its leaders are killed or captured. But it may be that Israel will be forced to accept the leaders going into exile as the price for the safe return of the hostages.  Michael says he doesn't think 'many of us' are antisemitic or anti-Israeli. I personally have not seen antisemitic posts on this Forum but I think there is evidence of anti-Israeli feeling, manifested by a) misleading accounts of the history of the Middle East b) gratuitous comparisons between Israel and the Nazis and c) criticism of Israel which is not matched by criticism of other nations.

Steven Rose ● 89d

Mr Carter'Just one example: currently, the aid requirement for the civilian population of Gaza is for 500 lorries to cross every day, but in fact the number allowed in is often less than 100. The UN special rapporteur on the right to food, Michael Fakhri, has said that “famine was imminent” but is now “inevitable.”'Surely 'the Arab World' will not let this happen ?Saudi, Qatar etc could surely fund the requirements which could pass into Gaza via adjoining Egypt.Probably best not to let the UN organise it as the food would probably either be stolen or replace by armaments.

John Hawkes ● 89d

I'm loathe to make many comments on this as we don't know the truth in a war zone where journalists have limited access - and a record number of journalists have been killed. Others also appear to have far more knowledge of the history and background of this region than I do.However, we do know Hamas made a deadly, despicable attack on Israeli 7th October killing and abducting many; no excuse for that.Israel responded in self defence in line with international law as its entitled to do.Now over 20,000 Palestinian have apparently been killed. Videos from hospitals and sites destroyed seem to indicate many of those killed or maimed are innocent civilians, many are children.The Palestinian casualty figures do originate from the Hamas controlled health authorities but if one uses Google there are a number of articles indicating in previous conflicts their figures have been reasonably accurate. If one looks at the devastation of Gaza in video and satellite images the numbers don't seem unrealistic. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-is-gazas-ministry-of-health-and-how-does-it-calculate-the-wars-death-tollI doubt whether the aim to eliminate Hamas or that culture is realistic, the current action may even have strengthen that attitude amongst many Palestinians. I'm not saying that's desirable but being realistic in that other anti Israel parties, probably Iran, would like to foster that culture. I'm sure there are Palestinians who are pro Hamas, but some are also Christians; the IDF reportedly shot dead two Catholic women sheltering in a church trying to go to the toilet - ok, mistakes happen in war - but I'm sure they weren't Hamas supporters. Is there a shortage of food, water and fuel? Well if the number of lorries allowed in with aid has been significantly reduced and infrastructure is damaged restricting distribution, and some areas are blocked off by the IDF then I think common sense coupled with evidence from interviews with non Palestinian UN workers and Palestinian civilians suggested the answer is definitely yes. My personal opinion is the current action is unlikely to free the hostages; it's already caused the death of three because of IDF members not following their rules of engagement (but I suppose that's war when conscripts are frightened and self preservation clocks in). The hostages' families don't seem too happy with the Israeli government action freeing them (invadingandprotestingat a finance committee meeting), and it's interesting that behind the scenes negotiations are going on (yes, one might say the action is keeping Hamas talking, the Israelis are there as well; US pressure?). That's possible seen as the best way to get the remaining ones freed like the first ones? But, yes, the hostages should be released.I don't think many of us are anti Israeli or anti Jewish. Perhaps more a concern is with the current Israeli government which seems to be a very right wing coalition (and yes, I dont like very right wing governments wherever they are), and to be honest I think their spokesmen (and they are predominantly men) are losing the PR battle. Comments about nuclear weapons don't help either (other than confirming that Israel has them, and I know that was a minister who's now suspended, not an official commentator), but still a worrying comment as it does emphasise that Israel has the means to completely destroy Gaza, although it probably has the conventional weapons to achieve that if it wanted to:https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/7/israels-nuclear-option-remark-raises-huge-number-of-questions-russiaI'm not sure how appropriate it was saying how helpful they were being dropping leaflets with QR codes of maps indicating safe spaces in Gaza; not much help when telecommunications and power networks were down! Poor PR at best, cynical at worst? Looking at my US FB feed there's now many, some I know are of Jewish heritage, that are now now posting pro Palestinian messages.With regard to WWII comparisons and what was referred to as "area bombing" many like my mother who'd experienced the blitz and V weapons did regard this as revenge to demoralise Germans rather than as militarily beneficial, and post war some considered Arthur "Bomber" Harris a war criminal (some reports say the late Queen Mother was hecked when she unveiled a memorial to him), and there are reports Churchill found the action distasteful as it wasn't focusing on military targets, and some military personnel also thought it detracted from strategic aims. My understanding is that many of the current rules of war, what's proportionate, etc are the results of post WWII treaties so what happened in WWII may no longer be relevant or legal? (Sometimes it also helps to be on the winning side to determine what's lawful ...)Interesting that the ICJ didn't demand a cease fire as Israel was entitled to defend itself but essentially said it should take action to minimise civilian casualties (my precis); haven't the US, UK, some EU countries said that as well?Anyway, i just feel sad for all the innocent Israelis, Jews, Palestinians, Muslims Christians, and atheists caught up in this conflict. And now we have the situation where the conflict seems to be spreading: the Red Sea, Yemen, Jordan, Iraq ... next Iran?

Michael Ixer ● 89d

'Israeli officials have made public statements expressing their aim to deprive civilians in Gaza of food, water, and fuel'  But are they actually doing so, you ask?Just one example: currently, the aid requirement for the civilian population of Gaza is for 500 lorries to cross every day, but in fact the number allowed in is often less than 100. The UN special rapporteur on the right to food, Michael Fakhri, has said that “famine was imminent” but is now “inevitable.”

Richard Carter ● 89d

Mr Carter'Israeli officials have made public statements expressing their aim to deprive civilians in Gaza of food, water, and fuel'But are they actually doing so ?Their aim is to crush Hamas and if the Palestinians had any sense (or the power) they would endorse this and help so that they could return to a normal way of life.

John Hawkes ● 89d

Mr Wheeler'In your opinion Richard.  I wonder what the innocent Israeli hostages think who are still being held'. So very true.And we read today that the UNRWA, the UN agency responsible for assisting Palestinian 'refugees' has sacked several of its staff over allegations they were involved on 7 October, when Hamas gunmen infiltrated Israel, killing about 1,300 people - mainly civilians - and taking about 250 others back to Gaza as hostages.Commendably the UK, US, Germany, Japan, Italy and others are withholding funding to this group which uses them to mollycoddle Palestinians who seem very reluctant to or incapable of doing what Israel did - take a patch of desert and turn it into a thriving state.

John Hawkes ● 89d

"I just can't understand why people like you are so anti-  Israel and so supportive of groups of primitive Islamists "For the nth time, can you get it into your head that opposing Israeli war crimes ("The Israeli government is using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare in the Gaza Strip, which is a war crime. Israeli officials have made public statements expressing their aim to deprive civilians in Gaza of food, water, and fuel – statements reflected in Israeli forces' military operations" - Human Rights Watch, 18 December 2023, http://tinyurl.com/jv3hrka9) does NOT mean supporting terrorism by Hamas. In the real world, it's possible to oppose both. Got it now?

Richard Carter ● 89d

Mr Carter'In general of course we should of course support an ally, but NOT when they are committing war crimes, as is clearly the case with Israel's assault on people in Gaza. A one-eyed stance on this is simply wrong'.They are not committing a war crime.They are defending themselves against an existential attack by a gang of murderous Islamists known as Hamas whose charter defines their aim to obliterate the state of Israel and the Jews that live there.They have a right to defend themselves by whatever means are necessary just as the UK did in WWII against another fascist group - the Nazis.I just can't understand why people like you are so anti-  Israel and so supportive of groups of primitive Islamists who if the pro-Palestine movement gaining ground in the UK is any indication, are also seemingly trying to change our culture - for the worse in my view.

John Hawkes ● 89d

In your opinion Richard.  I wonder what the innocent Israeli hostages think who are still being held.

Robert Wheeler ● 90d

"Israel is a country very similar to our own and is doubtless an ally in providing intelligence on Islamist activity in the west to prevent atrocities by such groups happening here.So why should we not support an ally ?"In general of course we should of course support an ally, but NOT when they are committing war crimes, as is clearly the case with Israel's assault on people in Gaza. A one-eyed stance on this is simply wrong.

Richard Carter ● 90d

If all these demonstrations stop, they wouldn't be taking the Police away from all the crimes going on. It's getting so much worse, even on Next door site all the stealing. Some people are just doing what they want to.

Barbara Stevens ● 90d

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGWeeIdr880

Philippa Bond ● 90d

Fundamentalists of ALL RELIGIONS & NONE can be a problem.  You are very wrong to just consider one faith to be a problem.  That just shows a real lack of insight and tolerance.

Philippa Bond ● 92d

Randomly holding people up that probably have less of a carbon footprint than the so-called protesters isn't really protesting it is just publicity seeking.Of course they could have a march like other demonstration and even picket outside relevant sites, but there number are too low for that.Such tactics were used as an excuse for stricter legislation. I wouldn't be surprised if JSO were probably infiltrated and aided by the MET and they came up with these tactics.

Ed Robinson ● 92d

It was reported by all pretty much all news outlets I think, including the Times, Guardian and yes, the BBC (not sure I understand the significance of pointing that out)Who reports it though is irrelevant as far as I can see. You asked Mr Palmer who produced the report and I have told you that it was the GOVERNMENTS OWN DEPARTMENT OF CLIMATE CHANGE (apologies for shouting but i thought it might help the message get through)As for nobody 'would produce a report that far ahead' well1) They have. 2) Regarding the mitigations point - why dont you read the report? As I recall the figure quoted previously factored in medium mitigation actions - the figure was in fact far higher if no mitigation took place.Please don't bother to reply unless you have actually read the report.

Michael Brigo ● 92d

"Why should the UK be neutral on the Palestine-Israel issue ?"Perhaps to broker peace.The point I was making - if there is a government policy then it should of course be legal to protest against it."Israel is a country very similar to our own.."Israel is unique and not similar to the UK IMO.As for preventing atrocities happening here:Withdrawing citizenship from adults who bear arms for other countries/states abroad would be a good start.I seem to recall that MI5 prevented the Manchester bomber from leaving the UK to join a terrorist group but was overruled by MI6 because the group was fighting against Libya.

Ed Robinson ● 92d

Mr Brigo'Bad news: it was a UK government report that produced that figure.But reported by the BBC !https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68079880.

John Hawkes ● 92d

Mr Brigo'Climate change is predicted to cost the UK up to 20 billion a year by 2050.'No forecaster would make a claim for any such cost at a time 26 (!) years hence if for no other reason it assumes no actions are taken over that period to mitigate the issue causing concern.

John Hawkes ● 92d

@JohnBad news: it was a UK government report that produced that figure.There's plenty of articles to read about it but I thought you might prefer the Times rather than the Guardianhttps://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/climate-change-to-cost-uk-economy-up-to-20bn-a-year-by-2050-mhjcnw7pv

Michael Brigo ● 92d

Mr Robinson'However the UK is supplying arms, intelligence and possibly on the ground military support too'.Why should the UK be neutral on the Palestine-Israel issue ?Israel is a country very similar to our own and is doubtless an ally in providing intelligence on Islamist activity in the west to prevent atrocities by such groups happening here.So why should we not support an ally ?

John Hawkes ● 92d

https://thecorrespondent.com/6285/shell-made-a-film-about-climate-change-in-1991-then-neglected-to-heed-its-own-warning/692663565-875331f6#:~:text=Climate%20of%20Concern%2C%20a%201991,uniquely%20broad%20consensus%20of%20scientists.%22

Philippa Bond ● 92d

Mr Palmer'Climate change is predicted to cost the UK up to UK 20 billion a year by 2050.'Predicted by whom ?

John Hawkes ● 92d

If you have to negotiate with the police about the where's and when's of how you protest - then you're already at risk of losing the right to protest.I wonder if the suffragettes asked for permission?Policing both those protests cost the MET 20 million last year.Climate change is predicted to cost the UK up to UK 20 billion a year by 2050.The UK gov's own climate change committee says the government isn't doing enough. If they stepped up to the plate then perhaps the police would only be worrying about the pro-Palestine protests and their costs would be lower.

Matt Palmer ● 92d

Two different things.One are planned marches with consultation with the police and probably involves negotiations over the route etc the other is not.Peaceful protest should be permitted whatever the cause.JSO Randomly targeting the public at various locations without notice to gain publicity is a completely different matter.With regard to 2) if the UK was neutral you would have a point.However the UK is supplying arms, intelligence and possibly on the ground military support too.

Ed Robinson ● 93d

Irrespective of one's views of the merits of the demonstrations (and I don't know anyone who has been involved in any of the ones you mention) we need to uphold our democratic right to protest even if we disagree with the cause. Unfortunately, demos may attract those who's actions may be unlawful so policing is necessary. I suppose, given London is the UK's capital and where people can demonstrate against parliament that's where they're going to protest. Given that additional burden on London's police, is it unreasonable it should be compensated by the nation via parliament providing additional financial support? (And sometimes demos do change policy - remember the poll tax riots?) On an specific point, I'm not sure why some from the middle east are in the UK, does it go back to Palestine being a British protectorate after WWI to just after WWII? (I'm honestly not sure, others seem quite knowledgeable on this topic.)With regard to the changes needed in the met police, the poor practices and culture go back decades (I can remember the attitudes of someone I knew in the met in the 1980s - and he was quite moderate) so it's good they're finally being addressed. Making political points is unnecessary, those practices and culture span governments, councils and mayors of both major parties.

Michael Ixer ● 93d