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Mr CairnsHow much of this do you disagree with ?1) Hamas that 'governs' Gaza is a proscribed terrorist organisation made up of Islamo-fascists.2) It, like most middle east politico/terrorist organisations claiming to be inspired by Islam, is a male dominated, misogynistic group.3) They are fascists because of what their Charter declares is their ultimate aim - namely the obliteration of the state of Israel and the Jews that reside there.4) On 7th October 2023 (seems such a long time ago) Hamas invaded Israel from Gaza, massacred hundreds of Jewish women and children and still holds some of them hostage.4) Israel fought back with the aim of obliterating an enemy on its borders determined to destroy it.5) The UK acted similarly in WWII when German Nazi fascists attacked us.6) Doubtless in the fog of war and under such existential threat Israel made horrendous tactical mistakes that caused many innocent civilian deaths.7) But a Hamas tactic is to imbed its fighters amongst the civilian population putting them at great risk.8) It has been noted that Egypt, an adjoining Islamic state has been most unwilling to give Hamas much support, politically or by allowing fleeing Gaza civilians to cross its borders.9) Hamas has made no effort to negotiate a settlement because this would contravene its Charter and acknowledge Israel's right to exist.10) Israel is a vibrant, sophisticated westernised country.11) Gaza and Israel's other Islamic neighbours are backward countries with no plausible claims of having improved the the state of the world economically, socially or artistically.12) Palestine is such a wonderful country that hundreds of thousands of its citizens have left to reside in western countries as they see no future at home because of its flawed governance.13) Of the tens of thousands now in the UK (why ?) they seem to spend most of their time marching and protesting and disrupting our way of life, at great expense to our taxpayers.14) Why ? We have no dog in this fight other than not being willing to politically stand aside as Israel is attacked.15) Simplistically and without going back to the British Mandate and UN resolutions in 1947, today Hamas represents barbaric 'badness' and Israel represents an imperfect 'goodness'.16) Do you not see this ?

John Hawkes ● 533d

Mr CairnsWhat 'Palestinian land' does Israel illegally occupy.It seems to me that Israel occupies the land allocated to it by the UN at the end of the British Mandate. (see Wikipedia below).And the Palestinians have their territories.It is just sad that they do not have the wit or energy to make anything of them.Or are you saying that Jews have no right to have a state and live in this part of the Middle East ?If I remember my school RE lessons aright, Jews have resided in this part of the world for millennia. And Israel is a legitimate state recognised by the UN and most countries of the world.It is multi-cultural where Arabs also have citizenship and elected members of the Knesset.From Wikipedia - 'The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a proposal by the United Nations, which recommended a partition of Mandatory Palestine at the end of the British Mandate. On 29 November 1947, the UN General Assembly adopted the Plan as Resolution 181.The resolution recommended the creation of independent Arab and Jewish States linked economically and a Special International Regime for the city of Jerusalem and its surroundings. The Arab state was to have a territory of 11,100 square kilometres or 42%, the Jewish state a territory of 14,100 square kilometres or 56%, while the remaining 2%—comprising the cities of Jerusalem, Bethlehem and the adjoning area—would become an international zone. The Partition Plan, a four-part document attached to the resolution, provided for the termination of the Mandate, the gradual withdrawal of British armed forces and the delineation of boundaries between the two States and Jerusalem. Part I of the Plan stipulated that the Mandate would be terminated as soon as possible and the United Kingdom would withdraw no later than 1 August 1948. The new states would come into existence two months after the withdrawal, but no later than 1 October 1948. The Plan sought to address the conflicting objectives and claims of two competing movements, Palestinian nationalism and Jewish nationalism, or Zionism. The Plan also called for Economic Union between the proposed states, and for the protection of religious and minority rights. While Jewish organizations collaborated with UNSCOP during the deliberations, the Palestinian Arab leadership boycotted it'.I do have to smile when Palestinian fellow travellers and keyboard warriors start calling Israelis 'Nazis'.You perhaps do not know that the term Nazi is used to define German antisemites whose plan was to obliterate the Jewish race and did in fact succeed in reducing it in number by 6,000,000+.However you probably deny this occurred and is just another example of Israeli unsubstantiated 'black propaganda' as you also think are the reports from the vast majority of the world's media of the Hamas atrocities of 7th October 2023.I end with a serious question.As both Israelis and Palestinians live in this part of the world what would your resolution of the conflict be to create 'piece in that region' ?

John Hawkes ● 533d

Mr Carter'Now, after over g weeks of posting, this thread has reached 100 posts and has become totally unwieldy: I propose that we end it now as everything necessary has been said, multiple times, and I'm starting a new thread, looking to the future rather than the past'.I look forward to this but before we go let's get back to the basic facts.1) Hamas that 'governs' Gaza is a proscribed terrorist organisation made up of Islamo-fascists.2) It, like most middle east politico/terrorist organisations claiming to be inspired by Islam, is a male dominated, misogynistic group. 3) They are fascists because of what their Charter declares is their ultimate aim - namely the obliteration of the state of Israel and the Jews that reside there.4) On 7th October 2023 (seems such a long time ago) Hamas invaded Israel from Gaza, massacred hundreds of Jewish women and children and still holds some of them hostage.4) Israel fought back with the aim of obliterating an enemy on its borders determined to destroy it. 5) The UK acted similarly in WWII when German Nazi fascists attacked us.6) Doubtless in the fog of war and under such existential threat Israel made horrendous tactical mistakes that caused many innocent civilian deaths. 7) But a Hamas tactic is to imbed its fighters amongst the civilian population putting them at great risk.8) It has been noted that Egypt, an adjoining Islamic state has been most unwilling to give Hamas much support, politically or by allowing fleeing Gaza civilians to cross its borders.9) Hamas has made no effort to negotiate a settlement because this would contravene its Charter and acknowledge Israel's right to exist.10) Israel is a vibrant, sophisticated westernised country. 11) Gaza and Israel's other Islamic neighbours are backward countries with no plausible claims of having improved the the state of the world economically, socially or artistically.12) Palestine is such a wonderful country that hundreds of thousands of its citizens have left to reside in western countries as they see no future at home because of its flawed governance.13) Of the tens of thousands now in the UK (why ?) they seem to spend most of their time marching and protesting and disrupting our way of life, at great expense to our taxpayers. 14) Why ? We have no dog in this fight other than not being willing to politically stand aside as Israel is attacked.15) Simplistically and without going back to the British Mandate and UN resolutions in 1947, today Hamas represents barbaric 'badness' and Israel represents an imperfect 'goodness'.16) Do people not see this ?

John Hawkes ● 534d

I wasn't going to rejoin this debate since it just seemed to be going round in circles, with the same points being endlessly repeated and involving long lectures which hardly anyone would have wanted to read.But recent developments are rather concerning, in particular the ugly suggestions being made by right wing Israelis on what should happen to the present inhabitants of Gaza.According to a piece by Sam Sokol the Times of Israel (https://www.timesofisrael.com/ministers-call-for-resettling-gazas-palestinians-building-settlements-in-strip/amp/), cabinet ministers Ben Gvir and Smotrich have presented the migration of Palestinian civilians as a solution to the long-running conflict and as a prerequisite for securing the stability necessary to allow residents of southern Israel to return to their homes. According to Ben Gvir, the war presents an “opportunity to concentrate on encouraging the migration of the residents of Gaza,” and Smotrich has argued that the “correct solution” to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict is “to encourage the voluntary migration of Gaza’s residents to countries that will agree to take in the refugees.” And according to an article in the Telegraph (paywall), the Israeli government is conducting secret talks in which it is seeking to have Congo and other nations accept thousands of immigrants.I'm sure we can all imagine the "voluntary" nature of the "encouragement" of such migrations, and it remains to be seen if these are serious suggestions or just the vapourings of the more extremist ministers in Netanyahu's already extremist government.PS: I hope this essay isn't too long...

Richard Carter ● 538d

Philippa, it is true that the atrocity perpetrated by Hamas occurred almost three months ago whereas the Israeli assault on Gaza is ongoing. But Hamas have threatened to repeat their murderous  incursions until they achieve their ultimate aim of destroying Israel. Should the Israelis simply wait for the next attack?Your account of the creation of the State of Israel leaves much to be desired. You refer frequently to the Balfour Declaration of 1917,  but you omit to mention the rather important fact that in 1947 the UN voted to partition Palestine between they Jews and the Arabs, the original two state solution. The UN plan was accepted by the Jewish population but rejected by the Palestinian Arabs and by the neighbouring Arab states. In 1948 Israel declared independence along the lines of the UN partition and the same day it was simultaneously attacked by all its Arab neighbours. In the course of the war 700 000 Arabs fled or were forced to flee their homes and in the aftermath 800 000 Jews fled or were forced to flee their homes in Arab countries. The difference is that the Arab refugees were largely kept in refugee camps by the neighbouring  Arab countries whereas the Jewish refugees were welcomed by Israel and made a new life for themselves. These Arabic speaking Jews and their descendants now constitute over half of the Jewish population of Israel.The claim that Israel is presently engaged in collective punishment of the Palestinians is not justified. The aim is not to punish the people of Gaza . Indeed the Israelis have tried to warn them of impending attacks (which is more than the RAF did to save German civilians in the Second World War). The aim is to eradicate Hamas, who use the civilian population as shields. The situation is tragic, but what are the Israelis supposed to do? They cannot simply call a ceasefire and leave Hamas in control of Gaza, ready to strike again.Israel, like other nations, has committed terrible errors in the course of existence. The  biggest mistake was to occupy Gaza and the West Bank after the Six Day War in 1967 and build Jewish settlements there. One of these mistakes was corrected in 2005 when the Israelis unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. Unfortunately Hamas gained control of Gaza in 2007 and instead of developing its economy and normalising relations with the Israelis they have used it as a launch pad to fire rockets into Israel, culminating in the atrocity of October 7. The behaviour of Hamas has also had the effect of undermining support for a two state solution  in Israel. It is not just Netanyahu but ordinary Israelis who fear that if a Palestinian state were created on the West Bank, it would simply be used by Hamas or one of the other groups  to launch further attacks into Israel whose right to exist they have never accepted.

Steven Rose ● 541d

Thanks Philippa! Just one point with regard to the Nakba. Just as many Jews were expelled from Arab countries at the same time, losing homes and businesses from where they had lived for generations. The were absorbed into the Jewish state. This was what could have happened if fellow Muslims with huge amounts of land at their disposal had welcomed their brethren instead of letting them fester in refugee camps eg in Lebanon.Greater radicalisation may well ensue but Hamas is entirely to blame for what is happening now. Sadly Israel is doing just what Hamas wants.I won't go back and forth as to the rights and wrongs of the establishment of the State of Israel. The country came into being 75 years ago in the same month I was born. I no longer visit as I don't agree with the colonisation of the West Bank but I do consider it my spiritual home having first visited in 1969. Suffice it to say that British Jews now have a homeland should we need it. And it appears that we do now that antisemitism stalks London's streets on a weekly basis.  I am not ashamed to be a Zionist. For clarification that means the right of Jews to live in their ancestral home. I appreciate that there are Jews who do not accept this. Let's hope they never need the protection of the Jewish state to escape from AntiSemitism as my German born mother did in 1939 after being refused permission to travel to the British Mandate in Palestine.People living in Gaza are ruled by Hamas. No free elections have been held there since 2006 I believe. Israel has free democratic elections regularly. Some might say too regularly as they have a ridiculous system of proportional representation that lets in the worst of extremist politicians. Once Netanyahou goes, as he will come the end of the war, if not sooner, Israel will hold elections where, I might add, both Jews and Arabs have equal right to vote.Happy New Year x

Lucille Grant ● 541d

Thanks Philippa! Just one point with regard to the Nakba. Just as many Jews were expelled from Arab countries at the same time, losing homes and businesses from where they had lived for generations. The were absorbed into the Jewish state. This was what could have happened if fellow Muslims with huge amounts of land at their disposal had welcomed their brethren instead of letting them fester in refugee camps eg in Lebanon.Greater radicalisation may well ensue but Hamas is entirely to blame for what is happening now. Sadly Israel is doing just what Hamas wants.I won't go back and forth as to the rights and wrongs of the establishment of the State of Israel. The country came into being 75 years ago in the same month I was born. I no longer visit as I don't agree with the colonisation of the West Bank but I do consider it my spiritual home having first visited in 1969. Suffice it to say that British Jews now have a homeland should we need it. And it appears that we do now that antisemitism stalks London's streets on a weekly basis.  I am not ashamed to be a Zionist. For clarification that means the right of Jews to live in their ancestral home. I appreciate that there are Jews who do not accept this. Let's hope they never need the protection of the Jewish state to escape from AntiSemitism as my German born mother did in 1939 after being refused permission to travel to the British Mandate in Palestine.People living in Gaza are ruled by Hamas. No free elections have been held there since 2006 I believe. Israel has free democratic elections regularly. Some might say too regularly as they have a ridiculous system of proportional representation that lets in the worst of extremist politicians. Once Netanyahou goes, as he will come the end of the war, if not sooner, Israel will hold elections where, I might add, both Jews and Arabs have equal right to vote.Happy New Year x

Lucille Grant ● 541d

As most of you know I am Jewish and grew up in the shadow of the Holocaust in which my maternal grandmother died in a concentration camp and my mother was a refugee from her native Germany via Prague in August 1939.FWIW I haven't read the full thread but I have been on two peaceful marches to highlight the plight of civilian hostages in the news and to protest against rampant antisemitism here in Britain, the like of which I have never known in my lifetime. I go to sleep each night and wake each morning with the images of the hostages in my head and the brutality towards in particular the young and the old, especially women. Israel first and foremost (as all countries should) have to put the safety of her citizens whether Jews, Christians or Muslim, at its heart. Hamas has repeated that they will repeat the pogrom of October 7th until all Jews are killed. What would any other country do? Meanwhile there are no marches supporting Ukraine during Russia's continuing bombardment. Why is that I wonder? Just because fewer people have been killed in Ukraine than in Gaza? Or is it as Sasha Baron Cohen remarked 'Is it cos I'm a Jew'? Every death is to be mourned, no matter how many or how few. I do not support Netanyahou nor the extreme Right Wing members of the Israeli government BUT there needs to be leaders in both Israel and the  Palestinian territories to come forth with solutions in the way that in Ireland/Northern Ireland political leaders such as the late John Hume and Seamus Mallon did (am quoting from a recent  Irish Independent article here.) Unfortunately I can't see that happening any time soon.

Lucille Grant ● 542d

Ms HallidayYour evidence for Israel not being a 'peace loving country' is that it was a participant in the many conflicts you list.Are you suggesting that Israel initiated all of these conflicts ?Hamas may have been founded in 1987 but its founding Charter  'defines the struggle to be against the Jews and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in all of former Mandatory Palestine, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel'.Do you find this a laudable mission ? 'What I find could be a parallel is that:- the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews (regardless of nationality);- Hamas wants to exterminate Israel (regardless of religion);So are you conceding that Hamas and the Nazis are identical in their genocidal aims but they are simply based on different criteria ?Who has Israel invaded apart from Gaza since 7th October ?'Israel wants to exterminate Hamas because it is threat, but above all, Israel wants all the land'.Ah yes - those avaricious Jews at it again !'Historically, we have been on the side of Israel because of the horrific holocaust.  But the truth is that the Jews killed were from many countries, including those that were split in the Postdam conference'.And perhaps Jews who survived the attempts at extermination on an industrial scale by the Nazis wherever they lived, when the 6 million or so of their fellow religionists did not, deserve us 'being on their side' and also had an understandable desire for a state in which they could defend themselves.

John Hawkes ● 550d

Richard, I agree with you 1000% (numbers not a mistake!).As I mentioned before, in the 20th century alone, without including the first and second World Wars, the list of conflicts between Israel and the Arab States is long and very bloody:  - the 1948 Palestine war - Israel vs Palestine- the 1956 Suez war - Israel vs Egypt + UK + France- the June 1967 Six-Day War - Isreal vs Egypt-Jordan-Syria- the 1969-70 War of Attrition - Israel vs Egypt-Jordan-PLO- the October 1973 Yom Kippur War - Israel vs Egypt-SyriaIsrael, by the looks of it, has not been a peace-loving country.  After all the wars indicated above, Hamas was founded in 1987.I despise Hamas - there is no way I am on the side of terrorism.  But I cannot be on Israel's side either; it is not a victim but yes an invader.What happened on 7 October 2023 is horrific and unforgivable.  But Israel is no saint on its retaliation.The  comparison with WW2 is rather far fetched.  What I find could be a parallel is that:- the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews (regardless of nationality);- Hamas wants to exterminate Israel (regardless of religion);- Israel wants to exterminate Hamas because it is threat, but above all, Israel wants all the land.  It destroys anything Palestinian under the cloak that they are all terrorists.  Not all Palestinians in the Gaza strip agree with Hamas.Historically, we have been on the side of Israel because of the horrific holocaust.  But the truth is that the Jews killed were from many countries, including those that were split in the Postdam conference.

Ivonne Holliday ● 550d

It is true that the the conflict in Gaza did not begin on October 7. But to pretend that the atrocity should just be seen as part of the ongoing struggle for Palestinian rights is morally bankrupt. It should not be necessary to repeat that Hamas did not just murder over 700 civilians on October 7 - they raped and mutilated women, they tied children together and burnt them alive, they desecrated the bodies of the dead and they sent the pictures of their horrible crimes back home to their families. What group fighting for human rights behaves in this way?The implication that Israel is at war with Hamas because the Israelis regard themselves as the 'Chosen Nation' is an absurd antisemitic trope. Prior to October 7 Israel attempted a policy of containment, characterised by quite a bit of stick and some carrots. Hamas and Islamic Jihad used to fire rockets into Israel, the Israelis used to fire back and so it continued for twenty years, a bit like the situation regarding Hezbollah in Lebanon. The Israelis also implemented a blockade of Gaza in order to prevent Hamas from using imports like cement in order to build their military network of tunnels, not to mention stopping arms imports. At the same time the Israelis tried to normalise relations. They granted around 18 000 work visa last year to enable people from Gaza to earn money in Israel. Kibbutzniks on the Southern border, some of whom were killed or taken hostage on October 7, even used to ferry patients from Gaza to hospital in Israel. All this stopped on October 7. The enormity of the atrocity, which Hamas has threatened to repeat, has made it impossible for Israel to allow Hamas to remain in control in Gaza. What country can tolerate the existence across its border of a terrorist organisation dedicated to the extermination of its people?A two state solution would be desirable. But the obstacle to peace is not, as some people imagine, just the refusal by Netanyahu's right wing government to dismantle the settlements on the West Bank. The real problem is the fear by many Israelis that even if an independent Palestinian state were created on the West Bank, the Palestinians would simply use it as a stepping stone to reclaim the whole of Israel, whose right to exist as a Jewish state they have never recognised. In other words, Israelis fear that the West Bank would become a terrorist state, just like Gaza, from which further attacks on Israel would be launched.

Steven Rose ● 555d

Ms HollidayRe your reply to Mr Rose.1) Are you aware that Hamas is proscribed in the UK because it is legally deemed to be a terrorist organisation ?Hence - 'It is a criminal offence to belong to or invite support for a proscribed organisation or wear clothing which could be seen to support the group'.So you should perhaps be careful what you state publicly.2) Hamas has no authority to fight for the rights of Palestinians on the West Bank for two reasons.Firstly it has no electoral mandate to do so as is the case also in Gaza.Winning elections is not as much fun as murdering women and children for these misogynistic thugs.Also the West Bank is under the control of the Palestinian Authority controlled by Fatah, another unelected Islamist group, led by Mahmoud Abbas.Both Hamas and the PA both prefer relishing victimhood rather than, as Israel has done, take a patch of desert and turn it into one of the world's most wealthy and innovative hi-tec economies.3) Though I never had anytime for the IRA who chose to bomb and maim innocent British citizens rather than seek a political resolution to their claims for extended Irish independence, they were not invading the UK nor did they claim to want the UK obliterated from the face of the earth.This is what Hamas are doing to Israel and what their objectives are.You have read the Hamas Charter ?I quote from Wikipedia."Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy." - Mahmoud al-Zahar, co-founder of Hamas.The original, 1988 version of the charter emphasize four main themes:Destroying Israel and establishing an Islamic theocracy in Palestine is essential.Unrestrained jihad is necessary to achieve this.Negotiated resolutions of Jewish and Palestinian claims to the land are unacceptable.Historical antisemitic tropes that reinforce the goals.The Covenant proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day. Compromise over the land is forbidden. The documents promote holy war as divinely ordained, rejects political solutions, and call for instilling these views in children.Article 6 - Hamas is uniquely Palestinian, and "strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned". It claims that the world will descend into chaos and war without Islam, quoting Muhammad Iqbal.Article 7 - describes Hamas as "one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders" and claims continuity with the followers of the religious and nationalist hero Izz ad-Din al-Qassam from the Great Arab Revolt as well as the Palestinian combatants of the First Arab-Israeli War. It ends with Sahih al-Bukhari's hadith Muslim 2922, suggesting that the Day of Judgment would not come until the Muslims fight and kill the Jews.Article 13 - There is no negotiated settlement possible. Jihad is the only answerArticle 17 - Declares the role of women in Islamic society to be the "maker of men". It condemns Western organizations such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, and intelligence agencies as "saboteurs" for promoting subversive ideas on women.Article 18 - Defines the role of women as homemakers and child-rearers, providing education and moral guidance to men.Article 22 - Makes sweeping claims about Jewish influence and power. It specifically claims that the Jews were responsible for instigating multiple revolutions and wars, including the French Revolution, World War I, and the Russian Revolution. It also claims that Jews control the United Nations (sic), and that they are supported by "the imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East".Article 28 - Conspiracy charges against Israel and the whole of the Jewish people: "Israel, Judaism and Jews". It claims that "Zionist organizations" aim to destroy society through moral corruption and eliminating Islam, and are responsible for drug trafficking and alcoholism.Article 32 - Hamas condemns as co-plotters the "imperialistic powers" seeking to corrupt all Arab countries one by one, leaving Palestine as the final bastion of Islam. States that the Zionists' plan is set forth in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and that they intend to expand their control from the Nile to the Euphrates.4) Israel, having been attacked by a group that has murdered its citizens and seeks to obliterate it certainly has the right to try to eliminate its members.It is not trying to eliminate all Palestinians.This is exactly what we did in WWII to protect ourselves and in retaliation after being invaded by another racist and fascist group the German Nazis.In doing so innocent people suffered then and also after Israel responds now particularly when groups like Hamas infiltrate their terrorist forces into the civilian population.5) There are not 'two perpetrators' in the Israel/Hamas conflict if by perpetrator you mean 'initiators'.Hamas initiated this conflict with its 7th October massacre of civilian Israeli Jews.Israel's consequent 'perpetration' is one of retaliation and self defence.Finally I am beginning to wonder at your understanding of this conflict and other matters of historical significance if you claim the Battle of Britain against Nazi Germany was fought by Poles !

John Hawkes ● 557d

Hello IvonneIn 2007 Hamas took control of Gaza, expelling, imprisoning or executing Fatah officials, who owed their allegiance to the President of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA), Mahmud Abbas. So whatever the plight of the Palestinians on the West Bank, which is governed by the PNA, Hamas has no authority to speak for them, let alone to wage war on their behalf. The PNA has never asked Hamas to send rockets into Israel on a daily basis, nor did it encourage Hamas to commit the terrible atrocity on October 7, as a means of getting the Israelis to dismantle their settlements and withdraw their security forces from the West Bank. As regards the number of Palestinians killed in the conflict, the BBC regularly quotes Hamas' figures, but never differentiates between civilians and Hamas fighters (some of whom may have been responsible for the atrocity on October 7). Thus BBC viewers might be forgiven for thinking that all the dead were innocent civilians. The Israelis estimate that around half of those killed were Hamas fighters, but it is impossible to  be sure.  I don't think the analogy between Hamas and the IRA is helpful. The IRA was a terrorist organisation operating within the United Kingdom with the aim of achieving a united Ireland. Hamas has attacked Israel across an international border with the avowed aim of exterminating its Jewish population (see Hamas Charter, Article 7). How is Israel, how is any country, supposed to respond to an enemy that threatens it with annihilation?Yes, World War Two was mainly fought by army against army. But in order to win, the allies carried out bombing raids over Germany which caused enormous civilian casualties. For example, 1300 German civilians died in the famous Dam Busters raid. The RAF did not warn the civilian population of the impending attack. And when the airmen came home, they were awarded 34 medals for gallantry, including a VC for Wing Commander Guy Gibson. The Israelis, in contrast, have tried to warn civilians of impending bombardment, yet they are condemned as war criminals. Why is that?PSThe Battle of Britain was not 'mainly fought' by Polish pilots on the British side. Polish pilots were phenomenally successful in shooting down German planes, but they constituted only 145 of the 2353 British pilots who took part.

Steven Rose ● 559d

Good morning Steven Rose,Apologies for this very delayed reply."Hamas has no authority to fight for the rights of Palestinians on the West Bank".  I am not too sure what the reason for this statement is.Yes, the figure of 17,000 Palestinian dead reported by Al Jazeera was provided by Hamas.  It was also quoted by the BBC and it confirmed the source.You ask "what country can tolerate the existence across its border of a terrorist organization dedicated to the extermination of its people?" Well, many countries have had to face terrorist organizations (remember the IRA?).  But the Israelis have confirmed recently they are also in pursuit of the total destruction of Hamas. It has to be, otherwise the degree of destruction of buildings and life in Palestine (similar to those we saw on TV during the Syrian war as well as those perpetrated by Russia in Ukraine) are not justified as defence. And yes, we all saw these horrific images on TV from the safety of Putney.I am glad you mentioned WWII.  As far as I understand it, the battles were between the easily identifiable armies on both sides.  The problem with terrorists is that they do not wear uniform, hence cannot be identified.  You also mention the "menace of the Nazis". From what I have learnt, the Battle of Britain was fought mainly by Polish pilots; their contributions and skills during the battle are more than famous! Also, it is my understanding that the Germans were trying to invade the UK but the UK was not trying to invade Germany at the time.  The bombing of Dresden, on the other hand, was horrific! A very important difference WWII and the Israel-Gaza war is that for the former, there was one clear perpetrator and for the latter, both sides are perpetrators.Thank you.

Ivonne Holliday ● 559d

Mr Hawkes,I am afraid that I do not necessarily agree with all you say but yes a few things.I would like to make it clear that:- as you say, not all Israelis are Jews; but- not all Jews are Israelis;- not all Palestinians belong to Hamas;- Hamas are mainly Palestinians.The history of the region is immensely complex, the amount of wars that have been fought over territory throughout the years is frightening, horrifying and mind boggling.  In the 20th century alone, without including the first and second World Wars, the list of conflicts between Israel and the Arab States is long and very bloody:  - the 1948 Palestine war- the 1956 Suez war- the June 1967 Six-Day War- the 1969-70 War of Attrition- the October 1973 Yom Kippur War- the 1982 Lebanon war- the 1991 Gulf war. In addition to the Sinai Peninsula (returned to Egypt in exchange of Israel being recognized as a state) and the continuing problem with the Golan Heights, you also have the occupied territories by Israel and the extension of settlements in Palestine.The attack and massacre of 7 October 2023 by Hamas were beyond appalling, despicable, horrifying, unforgivable and indefensible. There is no excuse whatsoever under the sun for them.  Hamas officials said their attack was a response to the Israeli occupation, blockade of the Gaza Strip, Israeli settler violence against Palestinians, restrictions on the movement of Palestinians, and imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians.But Israel is not helping one iota for peace in the region, on the contrary, it is exacerbating it.Please, bear in mind that Hamas was founded on 10 December 1987.According to Al Jazeera, at least 17,487 Palestinians killed in Gaza since October 7. In Israel, the revised official death toll stands at about 1,147.https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/12/8/israel-hamas-war-live-palestinians-demand-end-to-israels-gaza-onslaught#:~:text=At%20least%2017%2C487%20Palestinians%20killed,toll%20stands%20at%20about%201%2C147.What is my view on this conflict?  Both sides are equally responsible for the deaths so far inflicted.

Ivonne Holliday ● 564d

Please review your post. If everything is OK, click Submit below. Otherwise,click the Back button on your browser to make corrections.Topic: Re:Re:Peaceful march of Jews in London to support Israel...... Message:Mr RoseYou are so right to raise this issue as it is symptomatic of the anti-semitic and pro-Islamist sentiment which seems to be beginning to dominate this countryIsrael is a predominately Jewish yet a multi-faith  independent and westernised democratic state.Arab Israelis make up 20% to 25% of the population and 10 members of the Knesset are Arabs.Interestingly the official title of Pakistan is the 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan' which would be disconcerting for any Hindu, Christian or Jew that might reside there.Jews for some reason (the killing of Christ, a Jew, by Jews ?) have been a uniquely persecuted race for millennia and they are the only race that has been, by the Germans, subject to a state sponsored program of total elimination.I do not understand why Palestinians and other Arabs are anti-Jewish.Perhaps I should read my Old Testament.Hamas on the other hand is a proscribed Arab terrorist organisation.It rules Gaza with a rod of iron with no mandate from the populace.Its charter (google it) makes chilling reading and is indubitably racist.A similar organisation, the PLO rules the Palestinian West Bank in the same manner.Leaders of both organisations themselves live in cosy exile in Qatar.Both organisations are vicious and totally run by men with a brutal and misogynistic mindset that seems to be dominant in Islamist countries.On 7th October Hamas invaded Israel and further attacks have taken place.Wikipedia reports these incidents thus -'On 7 October, over 100 civilians were killed in the Be'eri massacre, including women and children; and over 270 attendees were killed at a music festival in Re'im. As of 10 October, over 100 people had been reported killed in the Kfar Aza massacre, with the total death toll unknown. Nine people were fatally shot at a bus shelter in Sderot. At least four people were reported killed in Kuseife. At least 400 wounded were treated in Ashkelon, while 280 others were reported in Beer Sheva, 60 of which were in a serious condition. In the north, injuries from rocket attacks were reported in Tel Aviv'.So back to your point - why does Palestine and Palestinian violence get such a sympathetic hearing from the BBC and much of the media whilst Israeli reaction does not ?Apart from historic and ongoing antisemitism, I would suggest -1) Jews are considered 'white' and Palestinians 'non-white' and the prevailing political belief is that the world's problems and issues are caused by 'whites' and that the majority of victims of these are 'non-white'. 2) The predominately 'white' BBC management feels a need to demonstrate its diversity and anti-racism which it does by the presenters it uses and the slant it puts on news items as you illustrate in your post.3) The Palestinians have for years successfully played the role of 'colonialist oppressed' and portrayed Israel as colonialist.4) The BBC needs to recapture a 'yoof' audience for news and there is nothing the young enjoy more than the self-satisfaction of supporting anyone they are told is oppressed by 'the whites'.Non-traditional media tells them this in 10 second videos - so much easier to absorb than a serious written analysis of any political situation. That being said and to give the BBC some credit, should anyone still have a sympathy for Hamas they should read the latest report of how Hamas treated its hostages captured on 7th October when it also slaughtered 1200 Jews and took 240 hostage.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67556006

John Hawkes ● 571d

The conflict in Gaza is tragic and people are naturally distressed by the scale of the destruction and the loss of life. But in my opinion the widespread criticism of Israel, borne out by the number of people who attended marches in support of the Palestinians, is influenced by the biased coverage in the media, particularly the BBC.1) It is noticeable that statements by Israel are regarded as questionable unless ‘independently verified’, while statements by Hamas are accepted as true unless  conclusively shown to be false and sometimes not even then. For example, at the beginning of the conflict BBC journalists based in Israel, Jon Donnison and Jeremy Bowen, virtually endorsed Hamas’ accusation that Israel had carried out a massive air strike on the Al Ahli hospital resulting in hundreds of casualties. The following morning Mishal Husain  on the ‘Today’ programme aggressively challenged an Israel general to prove that Israel was not responsible. In fact the accusation was false in every respect. A conflagration had occurred in the carpark, not the hospital, which was virtually undamaged, the casualties were around 50 and, most importantly, the damage was caused by a malfunctioning Islamic Jihad rocket. The BBC’s false report was widely disseminated in the Middle East and among other things caused Saudi Arabia to break off talks to normalise relations with Israel, but the BBC has never apologised. A second example is the  ‘attack’ on the Al Shifa hospital. The BBC repeatedly questioned Israel’s claim that the hospital was used by Hamas to cover military operations, even though as far back as 2015 Amnesty International has reported that it was used by Hamas for interrogation and torture. Even when Kalashnikovs, a grenade, military uniforms and a booby trapped vehicle were found in the hospital, not to mention a tunnel entrance discovered in the grounds, Jeremy Bowen repeated a claim by Hamas that this material belonged to the hospital security staff. A third example is the death toll. The BBC regularly reports figures given by the ‘Hamas Health Ministry’ on the number of people killed in Gaza. The total is never questioned and no attempt is made to assess how many of those killed are actually Hamas fighters.2) While BBC journalists embedded with the IDF are careful to point out that their reports are subject to Israeli military censorship, the BBC never warns its viewers that journalists operating in Gaza are reporting from areas under Hamas control and are effectively subject to Hamas censorship. Their reports only show flattened buildings and distressed civilians. Hamas is never seen and never mentioned. It is as if they didn’t exist, Gaza being populated only by innocent civilians.

Steven Rose ● 572d

Ms BondThis is the definition of antisemitism produced by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance.'“Anti-Semitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of anti-Semitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”It is accepted by most Western governments including ours and the then Prime Minister Theresa May said the adoption meant:“There will be one definition of anti-Semitism – in essence, language or behaviour that displays hatred towards Jews because they are Jews – and anyone guilty of that will be called out on it.”It does not preclude criticism of the state of Israel where about 25% of the population are Arabic or of other non-Jewish racial background and where ten members of the Knesset are also non-Jewish. Though far too often criticism of the state of Israel is just cover for criticism of Jews as Jews i.e antisemitism and this was pretty obviously taking place in the recent pro-Palestine marches. However the criticism surely should be that which could be reasonably directed at any other western-style democracy which Israel of course is.Legitimate internal criticism of its challenge to its judiciary only proves this.We do not read much about internal protest of Government behaviour in Gaza, the West Bank, Syria, Iran, Saudi..... I think that most would see the recent Palestine support protests as being as much antisemitic as anti-Israel.On the other hand the Jewish support march was Jews demonstrating their solidarity to each other, joined by non-Jews who fear the rise of antisemitism in the UK from Islamists.I have read no report that in anyway it was a protest against or attack on Palestinians.  Finally  did you read the latest report of how Hamas treated its hostages captured on 7th October when it also slaughtered 1200 Jews and took 240 hostage ?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67556006Nice people huh ?

John Hawkes ● 573d