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If Scotland left the UK then the UK as we know it would cease to exist and a new state would emerge.If Israel went for a one state solution then it may also cease to exist in its present form. Not that there is any sign of a one or two state solution.On the democratic question it is difficult to measure, although the UK moved to one person one vote for the house of commons in 1948, local government wasn't until 1969. Even today we have a member of the house of Lords that noone is allowed to know why they are there or who they are. We also do not elect our head of state. So how do we compare that to Israel, where not everyone everyone in territories controlled by Israel has the same rights. Some live under martial law and martial courts. Perhaps some similarities with Northern Ireland with internment etc??As for the press we do not have a free press. We are actually holding a journalist in a maximum security prison for informing the public about its illegal wars and telling the truth.History, will not solve this issue nor will states or other forms of tribalism. Perhaps if the UK put it's own house in order then it would be in a better position to help others. It must make sure it's on the right side of international law. Collective punishment is a two way evil, no doubt some have forgotten the twenty year war in Afghanistan or the many other wars that did not make the world and the UK safer.Back to the original question on the forum. A shadow secretary of Northern Ireland should of all people have called for a ceasefire.

Ed Robinson ● 576d

There was also a UN resolution passed on 29 November 1947, supported among others by the USA, the Soviet Union and France (the UK abstained), which agreed to the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine as well as a Palestinian state, while Jerusalem was to become an international city. This plan was bitterly opposed by the Palestinians and by the neighbouring Arab states, who attacked Israel the day after its declaration of Independence in 1948. There was injustice on both sides. Around 700 000 Arabs felt compelled to leave the Jewish State  during the conflict and were not permitted to return once the armistice was signed. They were not absorbed by the surrounding Arab countries but were kept in refugee camps.  Over the next ten years around 800 000  Jews felt compelled to leave Arab countries. They were absorbed by Israel and their descendants now constitute over half of the Jewish population. About 150 000 Arabs remained in the State of Israel in 1948 and their descendants together with those who came to Israel from the West Bank presently constitute 20% of the population.  Since 1966 Arab Israelis have enjoyed full civil rights. There is still discrimination against the Arab population but the situation is improving. Christian Arabs, for example, who constitute 10% of the Arab population, have the highest rates of educational attainment among all ethnic groups, including the Jews. It is worth noting that on October 7 Hamas killed 10 Israeli Arabs and took 5 hostage. I mention some of these details in order to correct the misleading (and antisemitic) trope that Israel is largely populated by American Jews with dual nationality who have colonised Arab lands.

Steven Rose ● 576d

Mr DoorlyIn some ways, however the current situation arose, it is what it is and I would be interested in your views and those of others below you on this thread regarding the questions I posed to our MP.Does the state of Israel have the same right as the UK to exist ?Is not Israel like the UK a democratic state with an independent judiciary and a free press ?Does it not have a right to defend itself ?Is Gaza in contrast not a dictatorship, controlled by Hamas with no electoral mandate ?Is Hamas not a proscribed terrorist organisation that invaded Israel on 7th November murdering 1400 civilians including women and children ?Was Israel not justified in chasing them back into Gaza, where, cowardly, they hide amongst civilians, in order to eliminate them ?For did the UK not invade Germany in order to pay them back for their attacks on us and thence to eliminate Nazism, a racist form of fascism similar to the doctrine of Hamas ?Is it not these cowardly tactics by Hamas that have caused so much civilian death and destruction and not deliberate tactics of Israel ?Hamas will not negotiate as they are killers not talkers and neither should Israel be suckered into believing a word they might say.I am amazed the support Palestinians have in the UK, as well as their numbers living here, as shown by how many are supporting them on marches 'for peace'(sic).Why are UK resident Palestinians not defending their homelands if such are so precious to them ? And support by some Britons surprises me bearing in mind what the UK has suffered from Islamism inherent in Palestinian doctrine.I refer to such incidents as the 7/7 London bus bombing, the Manchester Arena bombing, the Bristol stabbing and the murder of David Amess MP.I am shocked by the antisemitism inherent in these marches and revealed by criticism of and lack of support for Israel.We do have a binary choice.Israel is exposed to an existential threat as is clear if you Google and read the Hamas charter.It deserves our support and so would Palestine if it stopped its belligerent martyrism and put its effort into developing the land it controls as Israel did.Till Palestinians do so and stop relying on Hamas and the PLO in the West Bank to control and represent them I am afraid they do not deserve support but rather condemnation.

John Hawkes ● 576d

Hamas Charter (1988):‘The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them. Then the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees and the rocks and trees will cry out, “ O Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him” ‘.(Article 7)‘(Peace) initiatives and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement’.(Article 13)Some people questioned whether Hamas really believe this stuff. However the events of October 7, in which Hamas not only murdered 1400 people but raped, tortured and mutilated their victims, even tying children together and burning them alive, and then sending images of their crimes to their families back home, show beyond doubt that Hamas is an evil death cult. Their claim to fight for the rights of Palestinians is a mask for their genocidal barbarity. They are the Palestinian equivalent of Isis.It is all very well to call for a ceasefire from the safety of Putney, claiming in a high-minded way that the choice between Israel and Hamas is not binary, but for Israelis it is a binary choice between life and death.Double standards are applied to Israel. When this country was confronted by the Nazis (who did not threaten to exterminate the entire population), I don’t think there were many protesters calling for a ceasefire, leaving Hitler in power, in order to avoid further German  casualties. Britain prosecuted the war until Hitler was defeated and the scourge of Nazism was eliminated. But when the Israelis attempt to eliminate Hamas, who represent an existential threat to their country, they are accused of crimes against humanity.I don’t seek to minimise the scale of destruction inflicted on the people of Gaza. The war is awful. But there is a choice. Hamas could stop attacking Israel using the civilian population as human shields. They could put an end to their tyrannical rule in Gaza. They could surrender and hand over the sadistic killers who committed the atrocity of October 7 to the International Court for trial.  Once peace has been established, Gaza could be administered by Palestinians who are willing to coexist with Israel, the blockade would end, Gaza could be rebuilt and its people could get on with their lives.This of course would not solve the question of the West Bank. I am not a supporter of Netanyahu. I would like to see the Israeli settlements on the West Bank dismantled and Israel withdraw its security forces so as to allow the creation of a Palestinian state. Unfortunately public opinion in Israel is suspicious that the supposedly moderate Palestinian Authority is only pretending to support a two state solution, seeing it as the first step in reclaiming the whole of Israel from ‘occupation’.

Steven Rose ● 577d