Forum Topic

Should the HS2 be scrapped?

I know, it is not a Putney issue but an important national matter.Do you agree with the HS2 project being scrapped?  I honestly believe that the current infrastructure should be updated, that there is an urgent need for east-west connection and, if it was to really connect north with south, why stop in Manchester and Leeds?When the HS2 was discussed initially, I was not convinced that saving 20 minutes travel time between Birmingham and London justified the expense....  Thank you.

Ivonne Holliday ● 589d29 Comments

> Thus, in the absence of concrete policies, Labour’s message seems to be that they will do the same things as the Conservatives, only do them better. I am not sure that this is a winning formula.Yet they achieve a 20.4% swing in Rutherglen and Hamilton. Although that doesn't show whether it is just distaste for the SNP (and the Tories).Also the first u-turn from Sunak's announcements on Wednesday: https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2023-10-05/government-u-turn-on-rail-line-pledge-less-than-24-hours-after-announcement. I would expect more are to come.I agree that the state of UK politics is particularly poor at the moment.

John Kettlekey ● 580d

Starmer was elected as a leader by presenting popular policies which he has now discarded.In a two horse race neither seem to deserve their position.The fact that people are celebrating this is very worrying.The outcome will be poor regardless.

Ed Robinson ● 581d

At some point Labour will have to tell the electorate what their plans are. Up to now Keir Starmer has only told us what he is not going to do. He is not going to abolish tuition fees, he is not going to renationalise the utilities, he is not going to rejoin the single market, he is not going to impose a super tax on the rich (all of which he advocated when seeking the leadership). He is apparently not going to reverse the decision on HS2 either. His policies on all these issues are therefore indistinguishable from those of Rishi Sunak. And should the Supreme Court allow the government to start deporting illegal migrants. I wouldn’t be surprised if he reversed Labour’s position on that as well.  I also expect Labour to support Rishi Sunak’s policy of expanding the curriculum for sixth form students as well as putting technical studies on a par with academic subjects. About the only policy differences I can see are Labour’s intention to abolish the fixed tax payments for non-doms and to impose VAT and business rates on independent schools. It remains to be seen whether these policies will survive a realistic appraisal of how much they will contribute to the Exchequer. Thus, in the absence of concrete policies, Labour’s message seems to be that they will do the same things as the Conservatives, only do them better. I am not sure that this is a winning formula.

Steven Rose ● 581d

Too right. Never interrupt your enemy when they're making a mistake. And never give them a hint as to what to do to get out of the mess. He doesn't need to stand for anything right now, the Tories are doing irreparable damage to themselves on their own.Labour aren't saying anything as the Tories would probably claim that was their plan all along. Labour only need to firm up their plans once they know there's an election coming. For now they can have more fun at the Tories expense by simply saying "We'd conduct a thorough review to see just how badly the Tories have messed things up before committing to the obvious and sensible solution." Welcome to politics.Meanwhile Tory supporters will froth at the fact that Labour aren't taking the bait.HS2 isn't done yet. The realities of the existing contracts have yet to surface. They'll probably find they'll need to pay 3/4 of the money even if they cancel, and that money has now been promised for transport initiatives elsewhere. Get ready for more austerity and pension cuts.Look at this new bridge that they've built already! Unfortunately it's North of Birmingham so it won't have the new HS2 track being laid underneath it (the existing track is part of the line between Birmingham and Crewe, not HS2). Wonder what they can do with it instead. Build another road?

John Kettlekey ● 581d

Keir Starmer today refused to commit Labour to reversing the government's decision to cancel the Birmingham-Manchester GS2 link. He also refused to say whether ULEZ expansion is right. Does anyone know what Starmer actually stands for?

Steven Rose ● 581d

Confirmed:  The rest of the HS2 has been cancelled.  GrrrrWhat a terrible waste of money plus the cost of destroying parts of the countryside...

Ivonne Holliday ● 582d

The Elizabeth line is very successful right now as it is.

Philippa Bond ● 583d

Will it, why?I was not aware that the current route from Euston to Birmingham  was overwhelmed...  I may be wrong.But surely, the cost of the train tickets for the short HS2 route to Old Oak Common will be rather more expensive that the tickets for the "old" London to Birmingham route?

Ivonne Holliday ● 583d

And if it comes as far as Old Oak Common and doesn't continue to Euston then the new Elizabeth Line at Old Oak Common will be overwhelmed.

Philippa Bond ● 583d

"I still wish we could find an engineer of Brunel's stature!!"I couldn't agree more, Ivonne; unfortunately, we have instead Rishi Kingdom Brunel...

Richard Carter ● 583d

Ooops!!!  Do not know where the Islamabad came from!!Isambard Kingdom Brunel!!!I still wish we could find an engineer of Brunel's stature!!

Ivonne Holliday ● 583d

Predictive text is having fun at our expense again :-) 

Michael Ixer ● 584d

Islamabad Kingdom Brunel: I love that! Was he, perchance, any relation of Riyadh Stephenson?

Richard Carter ● 584d

Hello,I posted this hoping to get some answers.  I would be very grateful if nastiness is not included in them.I remember very well when the HS2 (as a continuation of the HS1) was proposed by the UK government at the time in order to address capacity constraints on the West Coast Main Line railway, which was forecast to be at full capacity in 2025.The view at the time was that the UK railway system was becoming obsolete - it needed upgrading urgently, particularly if it was compared with the French TGV and the Japanese bulet train.  It also considered that the existing connections could be used by freight trains which I thought was a brilliant idea - why use roads if trains can do it quicker and more economically?According to Wikipedia, "Work on Phase One of the route began in 2017, and passenger services are planned to begin in 2026. Phase 2a to Crewe on the initial part of the western leg of the "Y" is due to start services in 2027, and the remainder of phase 2b by 2033."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_High_Speed_2#Hybrid_billSadly, the Minister in charge of all this was Chris Grayling.I so wish we could find an engineer with vision and knowledge of Islamabad Kingdom Brunel.

Ivonne Holliday ● 584d

I hold no brief for Susan Hall but I doubt very much whether a person who ran a business employing 20 people and who served for 2 years as Leader of Harrow Council can be ‘thick as the proverbial’. And I don’t think that quoting a phrase once used by Enoch Powell  proves that she is a racist. It is becoming clear that HS2 was ill conceived from the start. I never understood how shortening the journey time between London and Manchester by an hour would help to regenerate the North. It would be more likely to extend the commuter belt around London, allowing people living in the Midlands and the North to work in London. I understand the argument about increasing rail capacity, but does this justify the expenditure of £120 billion on digging  large chunks out of the countryside and destroying  people’s homes in the process? I agree that a high speed link between Birmingham and Old Oak Common is pointless. If the government had any courage, it would scrap the whole thing. But given that the work has already started, second best is to scrap the Birmingham-Manchester link and spend some of the money saved on improving bus and rail links in the North, which is what should have been done in the first place.

Steven Rose ● 584d

> My husband and I are a bit mystified by the whole project, as it’s only 90 minutes from Euston to Brum, so we aren’t sure 20 minutes off the journey time is worth it.  But was it going to make the London to Manchester journey time much quicker? as I suppose it would have made the cost more justified.  I don’t know?It's never just been about getting the fastest journey times down, but there's great nuance in what changes the extra HS lines make, and these seem to be beyond the media to explain clearly so they just go with "20 minutes faster to get to Euston".High speed rail is also about increasing capacity so you can have more local/stopping services on the existing lines, and much more freight transported by rail (mostly on the non-high-speed lines).Right now scheduling is a nightmare on the existing lines as you can't easily run slow trains and freight with higher speed trains on the same line(s). Any blip in the schedule of the slower trains and it throws everything off.(You see this a lot on SWR going down to the South West as there are several sections between Salisbury and Exeter that are only one track that has to serve both directions.)HS2 has it's own "Why?" page: https://www.hs2.org.uk/why/

John Kettlekey ● 584d

My husband and I are a bit mystified by the whole project, as it’s only 90 minutes from Euston to Brum, so we aren’t sure 20 minutes off the journey time is worth it.  But was it going to make the London to Manchester journey time much quicker? as I suppose it would have made the cost more justified.  I don’t know? I think Andy Burnham is a great Mayor of Manchester and he is rightly upset about it.  It is a total slap in the face to northerners.  What was really needed was a train line going east/west not north/south. But, one thing I’d like to add, London has an amazing transport system.  People outside London are tax payers too and about time they saw some investment on the transport systems in their regions.

Martine Guy ● 584d

Richard Carter ● 584d

Yes, Hall is a real embarrassment: thick as the proverbial, and having expressed some pretty nasty opinions in the past: to give just one example, she liked a Twitter message in February 2020 which quoted  Enoch Powell as saying: "It's never too late to save your country."

Richard Carter ● 584d

That was truly embarrassing - gaffe of monumental proportions!

Ivonne Holliday ● 584d

Although the combined intelligence at the party conference seems to be limited ... the first Tory Labour, female London Mayor ...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-66981612Does she know the day of the week,  who the Prime Minister is (ok, that's tricky, they change so often), her date of birth (her real one), etc

Michael Ixer ● 584d

You have to say, it takes a particular kind of political genius (to redefine the term) to announce the scrapping of the extension to Manchester... at Manchester!

Richard Carter ● 584d

It's being reported on various news sites (Inc Sky News: https://news.sky.com/story/northern-leg-of-hs2-to-manchester-will-be-scrapped-12975050) that the northern extension to Manchester of HS2 is being scrapped.So what we'll end up with is worse than useless: a line from the outskirts of London (Old Oak Common, Sunak's idea of a world-class station) to the outskirts of Birmingham. So, and this is the worst of it, it'll take longer to go London to Birmingham on the supposed high speed link than it will on the current Euston to Birmingham New Street!

Richard Carter ● 584d

I agree Clifford.However, during the Victorian times, the UK was a very wealthy country.Nowadays, well, that is certainly not the case - far from it.

Ivonne Holliday ● 587d

The Victorians would have gotten on with it - so should we.

Clifford Cowell ● 587d

Perhaps but how did the costs compare?

Ed Robinson ● 589d

They'd then find they'd need to change bridges and tunnels - and they're even more infrastructure we're not good at investing in any more...

Philippa Bond ● 589d

Resources need to be spread more evenly across the country not just the South. They should have started up North."get an earlier train"Perhaps double decker trains may have been a better investment?

Ed Robinson ● 589d

It should be scrapped. If people want to arrive earlier get an earlier train

Andy Pike ● 589d