Near my house there is a charging point. Cars, when they charge, seem to spend half a day there on average. I assume that charging is quicker than that. But it does seem to suggest to me that we will need an awful lot of charging points, or faster batteries and chargers. And maybe signs on the road saying "no parking if not charging".
David Ainsworth ● 67d19 Comments
I am very fortunate living in Queensland Australia - our new retirement home comes with solar panels on the roof, Battery in the garage - just drive in and charge UP
Patrick D Barrs ● 61d
Spoke to a friend who has a Tesla.If you use one of their superchargers, which can get you up to about 80% in 20 minutes, the app will warn you that your charge is almost complete and that you need to be ready to move your car.Once complete it charges you £1 per minute until you move it. That's a good incentive.Filling a petrol/diesel car takes about 5 minutes from pulling up at the pump to driving away once you consider the time to fill the car, go in and pay, etc.So 20 minutes for an 80% charge is getting there, hopefully further improvements in battery/charging technology will bring this time down further or make it more applicable to every type of EV (not just Tesla). EV chargers, as we have seen, can be installed in lots of other places (car parks, offices, residential streets, etc) where you couldn't have petrol/diesel pumps.
John Kettlekey ● 62d
Great to hear that a neighbourhood Whatsapp is useful for communicating over the availability of roadside chargers.
Philippa Bond ● 63d
There is also a growing second hand EV market and quite a few articles about this online.
Philippa Bond ● 64d
Charging often takes longer than that. It all depends on the car, the battery, and the charger though.https://monta.com/uk/blog/how-long-does-it-take-to-charge-an-electric-car/ has more info.The lamp post chargers are generally only 5kW. If you have a car with a 45kW capacity battery it would take at least 8 hours to charge from near empty (although you never want it to get really close to empty for the sake of battery health). However, that 45kW or charge should be good for ~140 miles so it's not something people should need to do every day.Much easier (but not very popular) would be for the charging stations to charge a much higher rate for "wasted" time plugged in beyond the efficient charging time.For those that don't know, you don't just plug your EV into a charger and get free electricity. The chargers (even the ones in lamp posts) don't provide any power until you've plugged in the car and used the relevant App to tell the provider to start providing you power - and they have your billing data. They can tell when the car is full, as the charger stops sending power, so they could continue to bill you at a higher rate.I can see some future along the lines of the following (for the faster chargers):a) whilst your battery is below 80% and the charger can shovel electrons in at maximum efficiency you just pay for the electricityb) when your battery hits ~80% and the charging rate slows down (because a nearly full battery must be charged at a slower rate) the cost per hour should go up. (This is when it would be time to move to a low power lamp-post style charger).c) when the battery is full enough it does not need charging the rate should go up considerably to dissuade people from leaving their car plugged in taking up a charging spot unnecessarilyd) if a car is in a charging spot and not plugged in (either being charged or being charged excessively for charging complete) then give it a parking ticketIt should encourage people to only use the fast chargers for as short as necessary. Park it up, charge it for an hour or so, then nip out and move it to a normal parking spot and let someone else charge their car.For the lower rate chargers (such as the 5kW lamp post style chargers) you effectively sit in (a) above until the battery is full, skipping (b) completely.People who are lucky enough to have their own off-street parking can benefit from a 5kW charger from their home electricity supply and keep the car topped up charging overnight (which is also better for the electricity grid to use power at non-peak times).The really high power chargers (such as the 120kW ones at the back of the petrol station on West Hill) will charge the majority of cars to 80% in under an hour. The expectation there is that people use these like motorway services and have an hour long break getting a coffee or some food (or even doing a bit of work) whilst the car charges.What's needed though is encouragement for this to happen. Infrastructure takes time to put in (so start now!) and people take time to come to decisions about their new cars. I fear that bumping the ban on new petrol car sales to 2035 will be used as an excuse to delay the infrastructure investment, which will then mean a "lack of charging infrastructure" will be used as an excuse for why the decision was "the right thing to do at the time". It's likely to be an entirely self-fulfilling prophecy.The rug may be pulled out from under the Government (either by a change of Government) or, as seen recently with Nissan, by the manufacturers deciding themselves to stop selling petrol vehicles after 2030. Many would have already been planning to phase out their ICE production lines for the 2030 deadline and it may be too expensive to reverse those plans to accommodate a new 2035 deadline if there's a reasonable chance that it may flip-flop again back to 2030.Most people of limited means tend not to buy brand new cars, and there will be a reasonable supply of second hand petrol vehicles for many years to come. Although the depth of this market is dependent on those who are looking to buy an EV not being put off by the delay and deciding to hold on to their existing petrol car (which would go the second hand market) for a few more years.-jk
John Kettlekey ● 65d
Perhaps what we need are scratch off cards which note time of arrival at the charger and one hour increments up to three hours? Anyone who stays beyond the allotted time liable for a parking fine ticket.Nick
Nicholas Evans ● 65d
> There are different types of street charger including ones in street lamps. There always seemed to be the problem of cars parking in spaces blocking other users from using them. Whether a solution has been found I don't know.Near us, where there are a few lamp post based chargers, the solution is generally the street WhatsApp group.It's common to see messages such as:"I'm charging my car right now but it should be done in a couple of hours, and then I can move it if anyone else needs to charge theirs."or"Does anyone on here own the cars XX11XXX, YY11YYY or ZZ11ZZZ as they're parked by the lamp post charger on X Road and I would like to charge my car. There's space elsewhere in the road and the cable is long enough that I just need one to move."Eventually those people without EVs try to leave the spots near the charger enabled lamp posts free, unless there really is no option.The problem comes when there's a real squeeze on parking spots, but that's a more general societal problem of there being way too many cars rather than anything to do with EVs.
John Kettlekey ● 65d
I don't know why everybody thinks that they have to charge their cars at home. It is often easier not to.I think the first ones I ever saw were in the supermarket car parks at least 15 years ago now. These were free to use.Lot of supermarkets now have them as do some other stores eg Ikea - so you can charge while you shop. https://electriccarguide.co.uk/is-it-free-to-charge-electric-cars-at-supermarkets/#:~:text=Sainsbury's%20offers%20free%20charging%20for%20any%20customer%20shopping%20in%20their%20stores.What we do know is the British don't like sharing - they like to own everything themselves - their homes, their cars etc whereas in other countries people rent. Aren't there still car clubs with electric cars? Once upon a time those were the ones that used to be parked in the same electric car charging spaces. There are now fast chargers so it does not need to take as long. What there is though is quite a lot of different types and companies running them and I understand this can be problematic and some are much more expensive than others.Have a look at the zap map which shows a lot of chargers in your vicinity. I believe they say 95% of chargers are listed.https://www.zap-map.com/live/If you try planning a virtual journey I understand it is a good plan to try to charge your car a couple of chargers before your last chance one in case there is a problem if you leave it to the furthest. (Keeping chargers working should be made a priority somehow!)Different Councils are trying different solutions and if you really want a street charger near you then why not request one. https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/our-key-themes/transport/electric-vehicle-charging/suggest-location-ev-charge-point#:~:text=If%20you%20live%20in%20London,do%20this%20in%20your%20borough.There are different types of street charger including ones in street lamps. There always seemed to be the problem of cars parking in spaces blocking other users from using them. Whether a solution has been found I don't know.In Oxford the Council was trying out chargers placed in gulleys:https://www.oxford.gov.uk/info/20185/electric_vehicles/1535/gul-e_project_no_driveway_no_problemThe oil companies were very slow and it is only much more recently that they started creating a large number of EV chargers at their 'petrol' stations.Yes, there is a problem with the National Grid and there have been long waits for electricity upgrades in many London offices for years. You would see the generators in car parks. This was interesting:https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/03/16/from-heating-swimming-pools-to-vertical-farms-data-centres-are-proving-useful-but-is-it-enThis need for electricity makes it easier to understand why smart meters are important as electricity companies can offer users cheaper electricity if they use it off peak.
Philippa Bond ● 65d
Nissan confirmed it believes EVs will be cheaper than combustion by 2030 so it must invest for the transition.The European are behind the Chinese who are almost if not there already. So I think it would be well before 2030 for European companies.Also "Germany rejects EU plan for ban on new fossil-fuel cars from 2035"It mentions niche products as a reason but the delay is probably more to do with giving German car manufacturers more time."https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/germany-rejects-eu-plan-ban-new-fossil-fuel-cars-2035-2022-06-21/"On the subject of charging we do not have own petrol stations and most people won't have home charging. This should not be an issue as range increases and car use is reduced due to WFH etc, home deliveries etc. How many people remember petrol stations every mile or so? Now they are few and far between due to increase efficiency and reduction in mike's used If we were in the EU we would be following Germany's timescales with no possibility for delivering early, perhaps a rare unicorn poo Brexit benefit??
Ed Robinson ● 65d
Surely the way forward is to use this forum to present reasoned arguments based on evidence rather than unsupported assertions or abuse. The theme of this thread is charging points, or rather the lack of them. Michael has suggested that Rishi Sunak’s motive in delaying the ban on the sale of new petrol vehicles is to cover up his government’s failure to provide the necessary infrastructure for electric cars. On another thread Richard suggested that it is a self-serving populist move to win votes. I see no point in idle (and biased) speculation about the PM’s motives. The issue is whether the delay is justified or not. I would argue that it is the right thing to do and I can’t understand why Labour has stated that it will reimpose the 2030 deadline if it wins office when it will face exactly the same problems: 1) motorists who do not own homes with driveways will be competing for an inadequate number of charging points 2) electric vehicles are currently too expensive for people of modest means.
Steven Rose ● 66d
"One problem with this forum is that it has driven away all but those with the thickest skin on both sides. With that which remains it is no surprise that there is little useful "debate"."So, if those people, who do still come here to the Forum and argue, stop doing so, then there will be more people coming here to argue.Fair enough.
David Ainsworth ● 66d
> I find it depressing that so much political debate in this country, of which the debates on this Forum are a microcosm, is based on prejudice rather than reason. If you support Labour, then everything the present government does must be wrong and even if it does the right thing (as in this case), it must be for the wrong reason.One problem with this forum is that it has driven away all but those with the thickest skin on both sides. With that which remains it is no surprise that there is little useful "debate". I know plenty of people locally that steer clear of this forum as the views here are so entrenched (on both sides, but mostly in support of the current Government) that it is verging on toxic.It may seem that people are constantly attacking the current Government, but that's mostly because they are utterly awful in almost every aspect. British Politics has never seen such a bunch of vain, greedy, self-absorbed ****s that are mostly interested in their own personal futures than that of the country they pretend to serve.I'm neither a Tory or a Labour voter but I will cheer the day that the current lot of charlatans are cleared out. Labour may not be my preferred party but they're hundreds of times better than the current lot.
John Kettlekey ● 66d
I’ve also noticed the two charging points at the top of Commondale are also blocked by cars which are often left there all day. Also commercial electric vans who do the same. I wonder why they don’t collect parking fines from the parking wardens who dish them out when cars park during restricted hours. Perhaps there is no way of knowing how long the interlopers have been in occupation?
Nicholas Evans ● 66d
Building charging stations isn't really the issue it's the National Grid power distribution system infrastructure that needs to be upgraded both to collect power from new energy sources such as wind farms and solar fields then to distribute it to the new charging stations. Remember when the lifts were installed at Putney station and they weren't working for several months because no one had planned for the additional electricity needed and they had to install a sub station in an empty shop unit ... imagine that on a national scale with charging stations waiting for rows and rows of pylons to be installed :-)
Michael Ixer ● 66d
The EU also took the decision in March this year to delay the ban on the sale of new petrol vehicles till 2035. Are the leaders of France, Germany, Italy and Spain also covering up their failure to provide the necessary infrastructure for electric vehicles, or does this criticism only apply to Rishi Sunak? I find it depressing that so much political debate in this country, of which the debates on this Forum are a microcosm, is based on prejudice rather than reason. If you support Labour, then everything the present government does must be wrong and even if it does the right thing (as in this case), it must be for the wrong reason.
Steven Rose ● 66d
With EV sales increasing do you think that fuel companies are just going to watch their revenue drop?https://thedriven.io/2023/09/20/byd-and-shell-open-a-fast-charging-hub-with-258-bays-and-a-solar-canopy/
Ed Robinson ● 66d
So Sunak isn't helping anyone other than trying to cover up for the incompetent Conservative governments who have failed to plan properly for the infrastructure upgrades necessary to support their plan to ban the sale of ICE cars from 2030 to meet the net zero targets they set themselves.
Michael Ixer ● 66d
All of which explains why the government has delayed the ban on on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars.
Steven Rose ● 66d