Forum Topic

PM speech on Net Zero: 20 September 2023

There’s been surprisingly little comment here on last night’s speech by Sunak, and what there is, is buried in other threads. Whatever you think of it, it was significant and it deserves to be discussed properly (the text can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-speech-on-net-zero-20-september-2023)So, to initiate this, my view is that it was one of the most disgraceful, dishonest exercises in political rhetoric that I can remember. Sunak starts off by claiming that he has spent his first year as Prime Minister “bringing back stability to our economy, your government, and our country,” a dubious enough claim already, given the chaos of the school RAAC fiasco, to give only one example. But he goes on to say he wants to change the way our politics works: “Can we be brave in the decisions we make, even if there is a political cost? Can we be honest when the facts change, even if it’s awkward? And can we put the long-term interests of our country before the short-term political needs of the moment, even if it means being controversial?” He then said that “I have made my decision: we are going to change. And over the coming months, I will set out a series of long-term decisions to deliver that change.”I’ve no idea what these decisions might involve, but his announcement last night of the U-turn on reaching net zero is not a promising beginning. He claims to accept that the climate emergency is serious, yet he puts off (to the dismay and fury of manufacturers) the changes to vehicle engines and home heating under a confected concern for the cost to families; it’s an absolutely blatant, cynical move to scrabble for some votes for his failing party. In other words, he has put his and the Conservative party’s interests above the country’s, the very short-term approach that he claims to be against. If his concern were genuine, why would he be scrapping the requirement for homeowners and landlords to meet energy efficiency targets? Why will he not take forward policies to encourage more sustainable behaviour, such as taxing airlines properly and informing the public of the carbon footprint of meat? Why does he boast about scrapping the proposal for government to interfere in how many passengers you can have in your car – when there was no such proposal in the first place? The speech was riddled with such inconsistencies, all with the aim of propagating the straight lie that he was thinking of the country in the long term instead of dishonestly trying to rescue his miserable government from the fate it so clearly deserves.Anyway, this post has gone on long enough: it’s your turn.

Richard Carter ● 595d36 Comments

As I understand it the increase in the grant for a air source heat pump no longer has the stipulation that other insulation should be a condition of that grant.  The reason for it being a condition was because these ASHPs are not just a  simple swap for a gas boiler - they don't provide heat in the same way and you should either already have or look to get double or triple glazing and other insulation.  We have some of the worst insulated homes in Europe. There has been a lot of lobbying of Govt since so many MPs are also Landlords and there were new environmental regulations due to come in regarding the insulation standard of rented accommodation.  Landlords should have a C regulation certificate for each property by 2080, and under current policy developers will not be allowed to install new gas boilers after 2050.  It is also suggested that it would be well worthwhile offering smaller landlords tax incentives to make changes to draughty homes.  This would make them much more comfortable and cheaper energywise for their tenants.

Philippa Bond ● 583d

"And that listeners was a Party Political broadcast on behalf of the Labour Party. Now please turn off your radio to reduce the nation's use of electricity and carbon footprint".

John Hawkes ● 586d

"Are you suggesting Matt the government should give your landlord £23k?"No.I simply suggest the government reads and acts upon the recommendations of it's own climate change committee, whilst taking a look at other countries and having a think about what might work in the UK.

Matt Palmer ● 591d

To be fair the government did increase the heat pump grant to £7,500.Are you suggesting Matt the government should give your landlord £23k?

Ed Robinson ● 591d

Matt!!!  Welcome back!! :-) :-) :-)

Ivonne Holliday ● 591d

I heard my name being taken in vain so I thought i'd chip in.Firstly: @Andy - would you like to back up the claim that I 'ruined people's lives' with any of my stunts?Addressing (again) the point about my rented house and the gas boiler.I had two different companies come round to our rented house and they both essentially said the same thing. A heat pump will not work efficiently in the house without the insulation being massively improved - primarily all of the single glazed windows need to be replaced with at least double-glazed. Both quotes for all the work came in at around £23k as I recall. Our landlord chose not to go for this option.I challenge anyone to go back through my previous posts on this subject and find where I said that individuals should be forced to pay for these upgrades themselves. It seems to be the biggest lie of the right-wing press at the moment that 'the common person will have to bear the cost' - this is not the case outside of the UK.As per the governments own climate change committee - "The UK ranked 21st out of 21 European countries for per capita installations of heat pumps in 2022."How do you think that's possible? Does it seem likely that in the other 20 countries rated higher than the UK that individual citizens are paying for all this work themselves? Or do you think it's more likely that their governments have a system in place to help people out because they understand the meaning of the word 'emergency'?The government needs to be doing more not less to help people insulate their homes and switch to non-fossil fuel heating systems. Instead it's decided that in a desperate attempt to win the next election it will start yet another populist culture war.

Matt Palmer ● 591d

Thanks for the reply, Andy.

Martine Guy ● 592d

There was talk about replacing one recently but yes I would expect them to need replacing within that time frame.Newer boiler are more efficient and obviously being used all the time that paper efficiency becomes more of a reality.Of course solar and heat pumps would help but would they get planning permission? What are people willing to sacrifice for net zero? About the same as ULEZ expansion I would say. Nothing they want someone else to carry the cost.Let's just remind ourselves that TFL/Mayor decided money  not on transport infrastructure that would reduce green house emissions but on cameras and other associated costs that will not help net zero.Plus the advice of the pro ULEZ expansion brigade was to swap an old diesel for an even older petrol car. You couldn't make it up. A situation that hasn't been modelled as far as I'm am ware and is likely to push up CO2 emissions.That moved could have been spent on communal bicycles and other green transport.

Ed Robinson ● 593d

My impression is that its fresher than London. By that I mean high 20s temps are not as heavy as they are in London. The wide open spaces and the breeze off the viaat make things much better.Only had one winter which was very mild. My son says that the winters are not too bad and again the breeze off the coast tends to keep the temps a little higher.Generally, the weather has changed across the country. I used to spend a lit of time in yorkshire and Northumberland and they get nowhere bear the levels of snow they git in the 70s 80s . And that's the same across the board London hasnt had a really bad winter since the 60s

Andy Pike ● 593d

Sorry, Andy, badly put by me.  I didn’t mean today, I meant in general, lol! What’s it like in the winter?  Do you think it is colder because of being on the coast or do you think the weather is mild in general because of being on the South Coast.  When I’ve been in places like Deal without cliffs, I’ve wondered what it’s like in the winter with the wind coming in off the Channel. As I said above, London seems warmer than the Midlands.  It surprised me how little snow London gets, which is another reason I have loved living here.

Martine Guy ● 593d

Presumably Ed when those boilers are next due for replacement ( 10-12 years at a stretch) your landlord will need a plan to move away from fossil fuels. Maybe the pipework will be ok but the rads will need upgrading to cope with ? Air source heat pumps ( individual or communal) or ground source pumps ( how deep they need to go or how widespread across the estate will obviously be dictated by how many units they need to serve.One good thing if they go deep enough the could maybe frack whilst there.

Andy Pike ● 593d

MartineWeather very good today but has been very wet most of the week.Looks set fair for the next few days

Andy Pike ● 593d

"was happy to ruin other peoples lives with daft stunts"Really? Ruin other people's lives in what way?

David Ainsworth ● 593d

I agree, Andy. Can I ask you what the weather is like in Brighton and the South Coast compared to London?  

Martine Guy ● 593d

You remember Matt the strawberry who was happy to ruin other peoples lives with daft stunts....he had a gas boiler.So it was a rented property but ckearly principals dont apply as to where you rent but you can impose on others who alsodont have a choice!

Andy Pike ● 593d

Yes that had occurred to me too, David! I’d like to know how Richard heats his home?  Does he have a gas boiler?  

Martine Guy ● 593d

"I would rather emigrate than live in a cold house ever again."You may not need to, as UK temperatures rise.

David Ainsworth ● 593d

"The issue of climate change really needs to be addressed by China, India and the USA, which together are responsible for over half of the world's greenhouse gases."Perhaps we should stop trading with those countries, and produce the goods here?

David Ainsworth ● 593d

It is worth noting that even if the UK were to achieve net zero by tomorrow, it would still make very little difference to the future of the planet since the UK is responsible for less than 1% of harmful emissions. The issue of climate change really needs to be addressed by China, India and the USA, which together are responsible for over half of the world's greenhouse gases.

Steven Rose ● 593d

"the net zero policy is not *my* policy but one that is almost universally accepted as necessary to prevent a climate catastrophe"But he hasn't cancelled the universally accepted net zero policy has he?

Ed Robinson ● 593d

There's a category error here. To be clear, the net zero policy is not *my* policy but one that is almost universally accepted as necessary to prevent a climate catastrophe.  Don't trivialise the issue by deliberately personalising it like this.

Richard Carter ● 593d

Perhaps Richard would introduce an London ULEZ on heating?Whilst turning a blind eye to log burners because they are classic after all!

Ed Robinson ● 594d

I'm quite lucky, my block still has communal heating.The gas boilers were recently replaced.When you dive down to the detail it is clear a lot of politicians and party parrots haven't got a clue.One labour politician was saying it would prevent poorer people from getting electric cars.Last week according to Labour, poor people do not even own cars!What rubbish anyway, electric cars are becoming cheaper regardless of UK policy. In remote areas (I do not mean Richmond Park) or where weight or other factors are an issue they will be still needed. Should be few in number and they will obviously cost more. You don't want someone dying in the middle of nowhere because the electric rescue vehicle ran out of juice or sunk in the mud!I would almost put a fiver on the same Labour MP saying in a few months that we should ban Chinese electric cars because they are too cheap. The EU (Germany) will be pushing to protect their diesel car manufacturing companies - those that are still in Europe that is.With LA going bankrupt where are they going to get the money from?Wait I can see Richard's policy becoming clear: Will it be that we must tax the poor more because they suffer from poor quality housing??

Ed Robinson ● 594d

I’d like to add that I am no illusion, Rishi Sunak is incredibly rich and has no idea what it is to struggle to pay the bills, he is no man of the people, but I don’t want to get rid of my gas boiler and replace it with heat pumps until I know they will actually heat my home.  I lived in a cold house once and I am not willing to return to those days.  I would rather emigrate than live in a cold house ever again.

Martine Guy ● 594d

It will be really interesting to see how LAs plan to deal with large blocks with individual heating systems in each flat.Is there room for them all to have air source systems ( on the balcony maybe) as the existing boiler is leaseholder owned can tge authority force them to abandon? Under the terms of the lease would it be reasonable ( key word in leases) to force a leaseholder to abandon a perfectly good system for say, a new communal system? That communal system would need the construction of a central heat and hot water  unit plus the retro fitting throughout the block of a 2 pipe system to provide heat and hot water. This will be expensive and leaseholders would presumably face a significant service charge for the installation and on the face of it receive little if any improvement to their supply system,apart of course from the environmental saving, which could be marginal.There are thousands of these blocks across the country nit all LA owned and managed. The costs will be substantial. I trust all LAs are advanced in their preparation and have a suitable alternative for the many differing block types and layouts.

Andy Pike ● 594d

I think it’s very easy to talk about meeting energy efficiency targets when you are an upper middle class Londoner, living a comfortable life.  I came from a working class background to live in London.  One of the things I noticed was how much warmer London was than Birmingham, which is about 120 miles north.  We lived huddled around a coal fire, not getting a gas fire until the 1970’s.  I didn’t live in a centrally heated home until the 1980’s when I moved to London.  To me, it was one of the greatest luxuries of my life, I couldn’t believe it. We were in North Wales recently.  It was really cold and we had to put on the heating in August. I have a friend in Putney who is Scottish, she said London is almost tropical in comparison. I think people who go on about meeting net zero targets have no idea about having low income and living in a cold home outside of the SE of England, in particular London which is so mild.

Martine Guy ● 594d

We are simply aligning with Europe surely that's a good thing and will save Starmer a bit of effort when he tries to undo brexit.

Andy Pike ● 594d

The answer to your first question is clearly "No" since the EU countries are sticking to their plan, not altering it in a search for cheap votes.And on your second question, you seem to have fallen into the simplistic error of confusing "popular" with "populist."

Richard Carter ● 594d

The EU is also committed to net zero by 2050 but has only recommended a ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars from 2035. This policy has been adopted by France, Germany, Italy and Spain. Are these countries also led by 'rotten hypocrites' motivated by 'cheap, short term electoral advantage', or do these accusations only apply to Rishi Sunak?  Pragmatism should not automatically be equated to betrayal. If net zero can be achieved in such a way as to reduce the financial burden on ordinary citizens, not all of whom can afford to go out and get a heat pump or an electric vehicle,  surely it is sensible to adopt a moderate approach. And the fact that a policy might be popular or even a vote winner does not necessarily mean that it is wrong.

Steven Rose ● 594d

Peter Brookes, the Times' cartoonist, makes his view of Sunak's speech pretty clear:

Richard Carter ● 594d

You seem touchingly trusting of Sunak’s good intentions despite his gleaming insincerity, none more so when he was promising to scrap three moves - the proposal to make us change our diets and harm British farmers by taxing meat, the creation of new taxes to discourage flying or going on holiday, and the Seven Deadly Bins – which never existed in the first place!Similarly, you boast that the UK has already decarbonised faster than any other leading industrial nation – but most of this decrease came between 2001 and 2009 (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1147372/2022_Provisional_emissions_statistics_report.pdf); the Climate Change Committee warned in June that current policies won’t deliver net zero (https://www.ice.org.uk/news-insight/news-and-blogs/ice-blogs/the-infrastructure-blog/uk-progress-on-net-zero-is-slowing-warns-ccc). And in July last year the High Court ruled against the Government’s inadequate net zero strategy, concluding that it breaches the Climate Change Act, and needs to be strengthened (https://www.clientearth.org/latest/latest-updates/news/clientearth-are-suing-the-uk-government-over-its-net-zero-strategy/).Finally, you say that people around Keir Starmer are worried that Sunak's new stance might be a vote winner. Rightly so, since that whole stance is aimed at gaining cheap, short-term electoral advantage and to hell with the long term that he boasts so much about, the rotten hypocrite.

Richard Carter ● 594d

I think some of the announcements are good and some are sensible.Let's start with the good:    heat pump has been increased from £5,000 to £7,500Obviously this could be seen as renters tax money going to those that are probably better off, with home owners of large properties benefiting the most.I'm sure this is why Richard is being negative about the announcement rather than the green benefits it will bring. A high take up may help to bring the price of heat pumps down as the market and those that are skilled in there installation increase.Next the car announcement.    "And I expect that by 2030, the vast majority of cars sold will be electric."I disagree - it will be much sooner!As mentioned before China have reached the point where the electric car is cheaper than the ICE equivalent. It will be a no brainer with year on year improvements in charging, battery weight to capacity, range and lower prices. But there will be a need for some specialist cars where electric are not suitable. These will be low in number but still important.As for the non-policy announcement - if it adds clarity I do not see the harm."why would he be scrapping the requirement for homeowners and landlords to meet energy efficiency targets?"Because people are struggling to pay their mortgage and rent plus utility bills.A direct result of red and blue Thatcherite home/foreign policy.Are you against such policies? I assume not from previous posts!

Ed Robinson ● 595d

The UK has already decarbonised faster than any other leading industrial nation. Rishi Sunak has reiterated his commitment to achieving net zero by 2050 but he has delayed implementation of some measures while rejecting others for the moment.1) He has postponed the ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles from 2030 to 2035, bringing the UK into line with France, Germany and many other EU countries. The reason for the postponement is the high cost of electric vehicles and the lack of charging points.2) He has extended the period in which people will be able to buy gas boilers from 2026 to 2035, by which time boilers which have already been installed will need to be replaced in any case. This means that people with recently purchased and perfectly serviceable boilers will not be obliged to rip them out in three years' time and replace them with heat pumps costing £10k or more. These are sums which many people simply cannot afford. There will also be exemptions for people in rural areas whose homes are not on the gas grid or where the electricity connection is insufficient.3) Landlords will no longer have to pay out an average of £8k to make energy efficiency improvements to their rental properties. Not all landlords can afford these sums. The threat of having to pay for these improvements within the next two years has already caused many landlords to sell up, decreasing the stock of rental property. In reply to David Ainsworth's reasonable question on another thread as to how delay in implementing these measure will help people meet the cost if at some later date electric vehicles and heat pumps will be imposed in any case, the answer is that Rishi Sunak's changes will give people more time to save up for the new equipment and that hopefully within a few years costs on these expensive items will come down.It is interesting that Keir Starmer has not so far spoken on  the changes. Steve Reed, the shadow environment secretary said that Labour would reverse the measure on petrol and diesel cars but Ed Miliband suggested that Labour would revisit the issue of boiler targets. I suspect that the people around Keir Starmer are worried that Rishi Sunak's new stance might be a vote winner.

Steven Rose ● 595d

I am in two minds about this.My understanding was that the UK had undertaken to be net zero in 2050 (China in 2060).  I thought the 2030 target was to reduce emissions by 45% (Paris Agreement?).Please, do correct me if I go the wrong end of the stick!!!As for Rishi's announcement, I am not at all surprised.  We are in the middle of a financial crisis as well as climate crisis.  As we are all aware, many people have fallen in the poverty trap.Most certainly, he is electioneering at the moment.On another matter, I also understand that heat pumps are not only very expensive but not proven to be as efficient as advertised? Personally, I would love to have solar panels at home as well as a small wind turbine....  My finances at the moment do not reach that far.

Ivonne Holliday ● 595d

Richard. I'm not sure I've the time to add too much more to this in addition to previous posts elsewhere as you seem to have summed up the situation well. It makes Starmer's flexing of policies look positive in that until/if he forms a government it's difficult for him to assess the true state of the nation and what's viable so it's pragmatic for him to rein back any promises; what may have seen achievable four or five years ago may now seem a long way in the distance following Brexit, the pandemic, Trussonomics, poorly regulated utility companies, etc. Sunak, as you say, seems to be gearing his pragmatism to short term policies that will save him and the Conservative party. There doesn't seem to have been any thought of equalising fuel tax on airlines with that on railways - or even subsidising railways, using a windfall tax on oil companies to subsidise home insulation, etc. Ok, I don't know how the arithmetic on that stacks up but some seem to think it's viable so why hasn't Sunak looked at it to see if it is or not, he's supposed to be a finance person isn't he? On another level I take the view that if people are naive enough to be taken in by him then too bad, perhaps they'll get a short term gain over the next decade but they'll pay for it later in two or three decades. (I suspect that may not be my problem by then or I won't care so much! I'm glad I have no off spring to suffer in the future - although I do feel sorry for younger friends, colleagues and more distant relatives who will be blighted by these poor, short sighted decisions.)When the CEO off Fords - that well known socialist and green organisation:-) - is calling him out for this change in direction one has to wonder about the competence of the current government.It's interesting that it's not the only area where Sunak is changing his mind. Apparently a whole panel of experts on AI has been disbanded quietly; I wonder how much monet that change in direction has cost the taxpayer and why it's been done. (Not sure if one can read this without a linked in account.)https://www.linkedin.com/posts/alexandermartinnews_british-government-quietly-sacks-entire-board-activity-7110543020684386305-u83i

Michael Ixer ● 595d

We've had quite a few politicians defending us from mythical threats lately.So it goes."Rishi Sunak accused of axing policies that never existed in combative interview over net zero""Interviewed on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme the morning after a hastily convened Downing Street press briefing, journalist Nick Robinson asked the PM: “You said you wanted a better, more honest debate. You then went on to say ‘I’ve scrapped a series of proposals’, so let me ask you about them.“Where was this proposal for the government to put a tax on meat, that you had to scrap with such fanfare?“Where was the proposal for compulsory car sharing that you say will be scrapped?“And was the government considering forcing people to have seven bins? Another proposal you say you have scrapped.”Mr Sunak said “a range of different things have been proposed by lots of different people” and cited a report by the independent Climate Change Committee which suggested the measures."https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/rishi-sunak-net-zero-bbc-radio-4-b2415688.html#comments-area-----------------------“Sincerity - if you can fake that, you've got it made.”― George Burns

David Ainsworth ● 595d