Forum Topic

20 mph speed limits

Personally I’m pleased that many London councils (but not, as yet, Wandsworth) have adopted 20 mph as the default speed limit on their roads, as is the whole of Wales, on the basis that it improves safety for all concerned and reduces fuel use.This, of course, has drawn criticism from all the usual suspects, but the most extreme I've seen is from Penny Mordaunt, quoted in The Times today as saying (about the Welsh policy) that it is not just "insane" – that would have been bad enough – but "absolutely insane." She goes on to say “More disturbingly, it is going to increase individuals’ fuel bills considerably and actually be harmful to the environment.” She also claims that it will cost the Welsh economy £4.5 billion.All of this is nonsense, especially the extraordinarily extreme language about the policy’s supposed insanity, but the claims that it will increase fuel bills and harm the environment are quite simply wrong: "Reducing peak road speeds in areas where people live, work or play saves energy and cash. Research into typical stop/start urban traffic by Future Transport reveals fuel efficiency peaks with speed capped at 20mph. Drivers benefit from up to 10p per mile in fuel savings without trips taking longer. That’s a 30 per cent saving in urban fuel costs." (https://shorturl.at/lryW8). And the £4.5 million claim is, unsurprisingly, made without the benefit of anything as trifling as evidence.What's disappointing about this stuff is that until now, Mordaunt had seemed one of the more reasonable members of our benighted government. What on earth has got into her?

Richard Carter ● 603d38 Comments

I'm sure you will push for every road Richard.

Barbara Stevens ● 600d

But the 20 mph limit applies only to built up/restricted areas, the vast majority of which does not apply to the road to Brighton.

Richard Carter ● 601d

So it will take you 5 hrs to get to Brighton, or 2 1/2 at 20 mph. So cars will be longer on the road, more fumes, bit like going slow and they have the cheek to say no idling.

Barbara Stevens ● 601d

There’s so much misunderstanding/misinformation/plain stupidity in many of the comments on 20 mph limits (I mean generally, not here). Some examples: “they cause congestion” (they don’t) “they increase emissions because 20 mph is less efficient than 30 mph” (wrong: emissions are lower at a lower speed, especially with smoother driving), “they’re designed to fleece the motorist” (only if they’re careless or foolish enough to exceed the limits), “it’s dangerous because you have to keep watching your speedo not the road” (if you drive like that, you shouldn’t be on the road at all), “it makes journeys much longer” (no, it’s a small increase in time which is trivial when compared with the improvement in safety). - And so on ad infinitum (there’s a useful myth buster on this issue on 20’s Plenty’s website: https://www.20splenty.org/busting_the_20mph_limit_myths).The last example above is particularly egregious: the Times reports today that the Welsh government says that the increase in the average journey time there will be 63 seconds. Now you may quibble about the exact figure (and I'd guess that arch-quibbler Ed Robinson is even now sharpening his quill pen), but the fact remains that the effect on journey times is very small. Many of the comments below the line of the Times article are daft/wrong/plain hilarious, but my favourite is this one on the claimed effect:"Hours more [more] like - 100 yards would take 63 seconds more, on top of the 10 minutes it already takes."It doesn’t seem to have occurred to this Einstein of the Highways that, if he’s travelling at a rate of 100 yards in 10 minutes, it doesn’t matter a fig what the speed limit is as it won’t make the slightest difference to his journey time. 

Richard Carter ● 601d

Absolutely brilliant!!!  :-) :-) :-)

Ivonne Holliday ● 601d

Good for him.

Barbara Stevens ● 601d

I liked the story of the 98 year old going to a driving school, and his comments at the end:“It was nice to see the youngsters just starting to learn as well. And my advice to them is always to stay inside the speed limit! There’s an old saying ‘Rules are for wise men to follow and fools to break’.”https://www.indy100.com/news/care-home-resident-becomes-driving-schools-oldest-ever-pupil-at-98#Echobox=1694930299

Michael Ixer ● 601d

But what your forgetting is, it's not funny, even buses are caught up in all this traffic, so while your laughing at cars, buses are not getting anywhere either. Road by Watneys Brewery Mortlake was all traffic and the Upper Richmond Rd.

Barbara Stevens ● 602d

Ha ha - that reminds me of the cartoon Richard posted sometime back!

Philippa Bond ● 602d

I look forward to 20 mph. It'll be a big improvement on the 5 mph I endured on Saturday on the New King's Road.

Alexander MacLeod ● 602d

"Sadiq Khan’s office under fire for suggesting white families ‘don’t represent real Londoners".There were 4 photos in the article, I actually found the "approved" photo disturbing. It should have not been marked as not appropriate IMO. People are individuals and arranging them according to gender is inappropriate!It was like a class photo from the 50's, which does not reflect London!

Ed Robinson ● 602d

"Sadiq Khan’s office under fire for suggesting white families ‘don’t represent real Londoners".Sadiq Khan said that the caption was added by a staff member and does not reflect his view or the view of the the Greater London Authority.Meanwhile Susan Hall does not appear to retract her views. Still "Hall has made an effort to tidy up her social media in recent years, including deleting every tweet sent prior to December 2017." Move along, nothing to see here. A prime Tory candidate. London deserves her.

David Ainsworth ● 602d

Somewhat off topic but it’s increasingly easy to smear any politician these days.  Here’s something far more recent from your favourite Khan“Sadiq Khan’s office under fire for suggesting white families ‘don’t represent real Londoners’”https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sadiq-khan-white-family-official-website-b2396431.htmlI would suggest a separate thread for mayoral candidates though and let this go back to the issue of 20mph zones.  I mentioned Susan Hall only as she offers a seemingly genuine choice on this matter.

Mike Warman ● 603d

"I wonder if the OP will only truly be happy once all cars are again required to have someone with a red flag walking in front of them - that should slow them down nicely!"I'd prefer that cars' speed was controlled automatically in urban streets. No need to put one's trust in motorists' good sense. "Nice to see the increasingly centrist consocialist party have been so incompetent as to allow a decent actual conservative candidate for London mayor who wants to remove both the ULEZ extension and the red route 20mph zones implemented by the hideous KhanI can imagine the howls of protest on this forum if Susan Hall wins, although with scant support from conservative head office if any it may be tough even against such a dystopian nightmare as the current incumbent."Hope Not Hate disagree with you about her "decency":-"Taken together, Hall’s X/Twitter history shows that she is not fit to represent London – she’s engaged in Islamophobia, appeared to endorse Enoch Powell, and shown a contempt for democracy and our press.Susan Hall must be suspended immediately and ultimately, she must be removed as a candidate by the Conservative Party."https://hopenothate.org.uk/2023/09/15/susan-hall-conservative-candidate-for-london-mayors-social-media-exposed/

David Ainsworth ● 603d

I wonder if the OP will only truly be happy once all cars are again required to have someone with a red flag walking in front of them - that should slow them down nicely!Nice to see the increasingly centrist consocialist party have been so incompetent as to allow a decent actual conservative candidate for London mayor who wants to remove both the ULEZ extension and the red route 20mph zones implemented by the hideous Khan I can imagine the howls of protest on this forum if Susan Hall wins, although with scant support from conservative head office if any it may be tough even against such a dystopian nightmare as the current incumbent.

Mike Warman ● 603d

Twerp, it is about 20mph how fast does a bike go in the high Street when it's not meant to be going at all. STOP means everybody. Also going the wrong way down a one way street, but they look annoyed when your going the right way down the street. Loads of idiots on bikes going faster than 20 mph.

Barbara Stevens ● 603d

So much wrong here I hardly know where to start. * If more fines are given out it's because, d'oh, more drivers are exceeding the limit.* Why is 20 mph "unnatural"? That's simply a daft assertion, any more than saying 23.78 or 36.97 or even 30 mph is unnatural.* There are no plans to make major trunk roads 29 mph.* In fact, traffic flows more freely without incessant accelerating to 30 and back * and, of course, the silly "war on the motorist" cliché. Boring!

Richard Carter ● 603d

Whataboutery. This thread is about 20 mph speed limits. If you want to continue ranting about cyclists ' bad behaviour in other contexts, start your own thread.

Richard Carter ● 603d

Well Richard, you should stand at the end of the Bus Garage Rd, you can see non stop cyclists going past the traffic lights, not attempting to stop at all, I even pushed my trolley backwards to stop one bloke. Women couldn't careless either. But the most upsetting is seeing a bike with the carriage at the front with a baby lying on the base and a young 2 year old also sitting there. It only needs a large vehicle to reverse back a bit and that's it.

Barbara Stevens ● 603d

"Does the 20 mph limit apply to cyclists?No, and your point is?"Elizabeth, I should have answered your question more politely. The short answer is "No" because the law on speeding doesn't include cyclists, and the longer answer is that anyway it would be hard to implement because most cyclists don't have any kind of speedometer. (It could also be argued that the risk from speeding cyclists is very small, but that's a separate argument).

Richard Carter ● 603d

It could cost you your life of the life of others both dear to you and dear to others but also terrible life changing damage and life long  pain to yourself and to others.  Families can be destroyed.    Life is fragile.  The faster you go the harder you hit and for just a few minutes gained and so often not gained and certainly not gained if you cause, are involved in or are held up by a collision.

Philippa Bond ● 603d

So if I take a taxi, will it cost me more??

Patrick D Barrs ● 603d

What got into her?  Maybe leopards don't change their spots?https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/penny-mordaunt-terence-global-warming-policy-foundation-donation/

Philippa Bond ● 603d

http://www.putneysw15.com/default.asp?section=info&page=concrime449.htmI hope that is the correct article about Penny Mordaunt in Putney where she got a speeding fine (not in a 20mph area)People seem to forget that drivers should not see limits as just the max speed they can drive but taking more account of the driving conditions including the weather and what else is happening around you on the roads and pavements.

Philippa Bond ● 603d

When the top of Putney Hill was a 20mph, the section that is a 6 lane dual carriageway, just before Tibbets Roundabout, with no pedestrian access to the south bound lane, the police used to regular have a speed trap.It has now gone back to 30mph.Of course it is never about the money.Meanwhile on residential roads people are whizzing along.The no left turn from Upper Richmond Road into Charlwood Road (7-11am I believe).A guy sits in an electric car - probably 50K+ of equipment for over half a day. Add his wages and that's a huge cost.No markings on the car but I assume it is WBC.To top it all it is often parked on a yellow line - but somehow never gets a ticket.Nor do the cars behind him that are often double parked in the morning and doing dangerous maneuvers when the road is full of kids.

Ed Robinson ● 603d

Dear JohnIf you can’t monitor your speed.They will have many more camera’s operation giving out fines this was never the case with 30 mph.20 is a unnatural speed they plan to expand this limit across the whole of London and include major truck roads A4 to Heathrow and parts of A3. It doesn’t help traffic to flow freely. Where it’s a sensible speed it’s impossible to do more the 20 anyway. It’s war on the motorist.

Paul Beer ● 603d

Driving at 24mph in a 20mph zone falls under the area of "accepted speeding" according to the Highway Code because it is 10% +2.Wandsworth considers driving at 25mph or above to be breaking the speed limit... but on the whole does not enforce anything.  Ooops, I forgot!! Police enforce this, not the Council.  There again, police are absent on all the roads or they carry out speed checks wearing high viz jackets and in full view of drivers.....

Ivonne Holliday ● 603d

The Met responded to various FOI requests about this. Here's one from January 2022 (the latest I can find).https://www.met.police.uk/foi-ai/metropolitan-police/d/january-2022/enforcing-20mph-speed-limit-zones-december2020-november2021/This says the rule they use is 10% + 2mph, which is also the national guidelines (although a few forces did their own thing, mostly 10% + 3mph).So a camera in a 20mph limit will flash someone at going 24mph and they will look to enforce that.

John Kettlekey ● 603d

Ivonne, they don't forgive you doing 24 mph, my neighbour had to sit on her computer for about 3hrs for being caught on Mill Hill going towards Barnes Pond. Otherwise she would have had to go Hanger Lane. They still fine you.

Barbara Stevens ● 603d

What part of it is totally wrong?If you can't monitor your speed and keep it under the limit (which you get a bit of leeway with anyway) then either pay the fine (or go do the course) or stop driving. But don't whine about being caught.Driving isn't a right.I have absolutely zero sympathy with people who complain about being caught. And, for the record, I've been caught speeding (once) and did a speed awareness course. No complaints from me, and had a very beneficial effect on my driving as I learned loads of useful stuff on the speed awareness course.(Personally I'd prefer mandatory driving license refresher tests every 10 years, but no UK party would even dare to put that forward.)

John Kettlekey ● 603d

We’ve had speed limits of 30 in built up area’s for year but the new 20mph limit has more speed camera’s associated with it.Large fines of £130  and In some areas a speed awareness course is enforced.My neighbour attended one. Took place 9am Hangers Lane run by the AA 1.5 hours long.  A stressful event for this 82 year old lady.Remember If you don’t attend 3 points goes on your license. It’s totally wrong.

Paul Beer ● 603d

Hello Richard,Please bear in mind that in Wales the 20mph speed limit applies to restricted roads, meaning residential roads and Councils are free to designate some roads as 30mph.I cannot see this speed limit applying to roads like the A3 going out of London beyond the Kingston exit or on any motorways.As far as Wandsworth is concerned, I fully support the 20mph speed limit on residential roads.  It is a great pity that enforcement is non-existent! But I disagree with Roehampton Lane and URR being 20mph roads.  LRR is a 20mph road which I  believe at times being ridiculous but it is mainly on the stretch under Richmond Borough.We asked the Council to check speeds on our roads.  They eventually put the ATC on the road and the result was that the average speed was 20mph.  It did not matter that two cars were doing 50+mph, 10 more than 45mph or three times as many 40mph.  In my response to them, according to the table they provided, if you take into account cars driving above 20mph, the average was 1 car every 72 seconds.  Of course, they forgive anybody doing 24mph - which is lawful - but the difference between the Council's averages and the ones shown on the table were eye watering....

Ivonne Holliday ● 603d

Surely you want people to take the route that uses less fuel, Richard??In the real world we know if you lower the speed limit on major routes, more drivers will use minor roads which tend to have less visibility and more people crossing them. They are also policed less so speeding tends to be a problem.

Ed Robinson ● 603d

I have seen traffic flow better when the limit is 20. however it's a struggle to get to third gear in most cars LOL

Maxine Campbell ● 603d

You mean you wouldn't mind if a constant stream of rat runners drove through the area where you live?

Richard Carter ● 603d

"Does the 20 mph limit apply to cyclists?"No, and your point is?

Richard Carter ● 603d

If all routes are 20mph the most fuel efficient will tend to be the shortest.The question is what will be the objection to so-called clean ULEZ compliant and now safe cars  traveling through residential roads instead of main routes?

Ed Robinson ● 603d

Does the 20 mph limit apply to cyclists?

Elizabeth Balsom ● 603d