Forum Topic

BT Digital Voice

Another programme on it - and how BT need to up their game and how those of us with elderly parents, friends and relations need to be aware of the problems that can be caused even when they are recorded as being vulnerable with the provider.  It isn't good enough to be left without a telephone line or a means of communication that you can use.https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001q0t5BBC Radio 4 You and Yours (the first subject)30 August 2023

Philippa Bond ● 618d21 Comments

Sorry about the technical details in the links, I post them just to prove I'm not making things up! The headlines are normally the important bits and I usually attempt to highlight any other relevant bits. I've copied another link below - and this one is full of BT marketing speak and technobable best ignored - but it follows up from something I posted a while ago. If you only have an old analogue phone line with no broadband there's a workaround transition product: 'SOTAP (Single Order Transitional Access Product) for Analogue' with an even catchier marketing name of 'Pre-Digital Phone Line'. This will be a copper line with power (probably your existing one) that emulates an existing phone line connected to the broadband network at the exchange. It should support alarm products but that, I believe, is still being tested and it's unclear if extension phones are being supported but as I can see no reason why they need to change the cabling and socket on the customer's premises I can't see why not.But you MUST have an existing phone line WITHOUT broadband, and not want broadband. This is a transition product so I assume it will only be supported for a few years.https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/11/openreach-prep-alternative-uk-analogue-style-phone-product.html

Michael Ixer ● 549d

Philippa,If you look at the link provided by Michael Ixer, it would not be surprising that many people would not know.  I had no clue until Michael I posted the link!Also, if people do not know, I find it difficult for them to participate in the "chats", particularly those who are not conversant with computers and IT.Would you disagree?

Ivonne Holliday ● 549d

Thanks for this - although I'm sure that a lot of people that this is important for will not be going out to Townhall events in November and December!

Philippa Bond ● 549d

The latest: BT to Deploy UK Digital Voice Across Greater London in November - ISPreview UKhttps://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/10/bt-to-deploy-uk-digital-voice-across-greater-london-in-november.htmlBT will be holding a series of public pop-up "townhall" events across the region in November and early December to address customer questions. The nearest to Putney seems to be:3rd-4th December – Wandsworth – Battersea library, 265 Lavender hill, London, SW11 1JB

Michael Ixer ● 557d

Yeah, those with care alarms will have a problem. We'll have to see how it pans out, but suspect the elderly or those who have reasons for not wanting to be part of it will probably be side lined eventually. It's the way it's all going. Watching Australia and the 'cashless banks' where they are steadily eroding the number of banks where you can actually get cash from...... it's coming this way too I suspect.

Victoria Diamond ● 591d

An update. Following successful trials BT do now seem to be going full steam ahead with their Digital Voice rollout with a planned completion date in 2025. However, this article seems to suggest for some with special requirements free battery backups will be available, and, for those who don't want broadband, or who can't change for some reason - for example, a care alarm (and don't have broadband) - there will be an option called "Pre Digital Landline Service". I'm not too sure what this is but my guess (and it is just a guess) is that you retain your existing phone(s), care line equipment and a copper link to the exchange, and then at the exchange there's a router which digitises the voice inputs and connects then to the Digital Voice service on the internet - essentially they're doing this at the exchange rather than in your home but it will allow BT to decommission their ageing PSTN switches and circuits.Apparently this service will be available until 2030 but only without broadband. (If you have broadband then at some stage before 2030 your copper circuit will be replaced with a fibre one and this limited phone only service only operates over copper).https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/26/bt_begins_big_switchover_ahead/BT seem to indicate those not requiring or wanting broadband won't be forced down the Digital Voice route (in BT's marketing speak you won't be "proactively switched"!) but you'll need to notify them.

Michael Ixer ● 592d

New scams. Just a warning that the conversion to Digital Voice is spawning new scam phone calls and emails. Typically they're targeting vulnerable people who may have health or care devices and trying to trick them to give out bank account and other personal details by pretending to be from the NHS, BT, etchttps://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/09/shift-from-uk-analogue-to-digital-phone-lines-breeds-new-scams.html

Michael Ixer ● 599d

Thank you Michael

Elizabeth Balsom ● 603d

The answer is yes ... but ... it will be different ... although in normal operation if everything works correctly it should operate as a current landline does. You will still have a line coming into you house with a phone attached. The line may change from two copper wires to a glass fibre cable at some stage and the signal will change from being a dedicated voice circuit to a broadband, data circuit, and the phone will need to be connected to a router or some similar network device - which will convert the voice to data and translate the phone numbers dialled to addresses for transmission over the Internet: BT should install and configure that. One shouldn't notice those differences when receiving or makings calls.However, power for the phone and router will be from a phone socket in your home rather than from the telephone exchange so you should request BT provide a backup power battery for when power cuts occur if you don't have a mobile phone. (There may be complications if a care alarm, etc is used - the suppliers of that equipment may need to make changes - and BT will not connect any wired extension phones, but a DECT system with wireless extension can be used, or BT can provide alternative wireless adapters for extension phones.)Not sure if that helps?

Michael Ixer ● 603d

thank you for this explanation.Will I still be able to have a landline when the switch is completed?Thanks

Elizabeth Balsom ● 603d

Digital Voice (or VoIP) is a fait accompli. I don't see any amount of lobbying slowing it down much, for a several reasons. Firstly, It's essentially for BT to be able to replace copper connections with fibre to allow provision of Gigabit broadband. BT and other companies rolling out fibre will say the government is pushing them to provide fast internet connectivity. (I don't see that as a political issue  Boris Johnson initiated Gigabit broadband projects, at one time aiming for all by 2025, and Corbyn was promising free fibre broadband, although with a more realistic date of 2030.) https://www.gov.uk/government/news/work-begins-on-first-major-broadband-upgrade-under-5-billion-project-gigabit https://labour.org.uk/press/british-broadband-labour-sets-out-mission-to-connect-communities-across-britain-by-delivering-free-full-fibre-broadband-for-all/ Secondly, the existing equipment the public switched network operates on is aging and will become difficult to maintain or impossible to replace - and some copper wire on the local loop was probably installed over 100 years ago (BT will make money recovering that copper and selling it). Hence, the  network will become less reliable in a few years. (Granted VoIP on FTTC/VDSL circuits isn't likely to be that reliable. My Plusnet broadband is often interrupted; I hope that's caused by work installing fibre …). Thirdly, keep in mind this conversion isn't just happening in the UK, it's happening world wide, so the market for PSTN/ISDN switches has shrunk - if not completely disappeared yet - and, in turn, so has their availability. Telcos like BT no longer make money out of PSTN now private individuals' voice calls can be made for free or very cheaply using WhatsApp, Skype, Zoom, various VoIP, or mobiles services, and most large businesses and probably many medium sized ones have already installed VoIP systems. In my opinion any lobbying should focus on improving the installation of VoIP: providing battery backups where, assisting in liaising with care or other alarm providers where needed, being persuaded to support wired extensions to existing, multiple analogue phones, etc. I saw a recent statement from BT where they described themselves as "the UK's largest provider of fixed-line broadband and mobile services in the UK" - no mention of 'phone' services. I'm not saying this is necessarily good, just indicating where realistic lobbying is likely to be effective. Mr Google tells me a host of European countries such as the Netherlands, Estonia, and Germany have switched to IP phone networks, with Norway, Spain and Portugal not far behind. Further afield, Singapore has already switched off PSTN, with Japan and Australia targeting completion dates within the next 2-3 years. [1 Aug 2023]
https://www.yay.com/blog/voip/global-pstn-switchoff-learnings/#:~:text=A%20host%20of%20European%20countries,the%20next%202%2D3%20years. And it's happening (or happened?) in the US too (only they called it POTS - the plain old telephone system):
https://www.comrex.com/news/the-great-switch-off-pots-isdn-shutdown-imminent-in-2022/

Michael Ixer ● 603d

Philippa, I'd never heard of Silver Voices until I read the ISP Review article. The SV website (https://silvervoices.co.uk) seems to be unreachable at present! If the BT engineers are under time pressure they're just going to follow whatever their instructions are and not delve further into anything. 
On a point of detail, I don't think OpenReach will guarantee to supply a modem from any specific supplier. I know with FTTC the modem will be from the same supplier at the equipment in the street cabinet (the "big green box") as having the same signal characteristics is critical for pushing the copper between the cabinet and modem to it's limits. The router will usually be specified and supplied by one's ISP, which may be BT. In practice OpenReach seem to install the modem and router for both BT and other ISPs, for example, Plusnet. Not sure about FTTP installs (I know Community Fibre install and supply everything: fibre, modem and router but they're completely). Hence, I'm not surprised pictures don't always match. (I believe one can supply one's own router by then you're on your own with regards to configuration and support.) The "Digital Divide" is a major concern - not just for older people - and I know there are organisations looking at this, such as the Digital Poverty Alliance and the British Computer Society:
https://digitalpovertyalliance.org/
https://www.bcs.org/policy-and-influence/digital-divide/

Michael Ixer ● 604d

We have had a very rushed visit from an engineer to replace or check our router not that long ago and I wondered if that time constraint that you mentioned Michael might also be a reason for problems.  Bamboozling letters where pictures don't match equipment doesn't help - wherever your router might 'live'!  Telephone companies pack and market their equipment without any cabling.I couldn't access the Silver Voices (who I'd never heard of) website.  The Think Broadband one was interesting.Age UK are apparently starting a campaign 'Offline and Overlooked' so it might be worthwhile anyone with problems contacting them so that comprehensive solutions are arrived at.  It isn't up yet but here is the website:https://www.ageuk.org.uk/our-impact/campaigning/

Philippa Bond ● 604d

A lot of assumptions are being made about people and their use of technology.  We have differing abilities and use it for different things.There are also elderly people who have an internet connection but do not and cannot use it - like my FIL used to - because WE used it when we visited and mainly for work initially.  However it meant that we were also able to spend much more time there with him and function the way that we were used to at home but which also included being able to get information on and deal with all the local services available that he needed.There are also those who used to be able to use a laptop but whose eyesight is now so poor that they don't any more and for whom learning a whole new system is possibly just a pipe dream.  Moving from a non smartphone to a smartphone and learning those functions bit by bit is quite a challenge when there are already plenty of other daily challenges to deal with - a lot of which are all the different kinds of technology that hospitals and GPs and Councils are now using.

Philippa Bond ● 605d

Interesting reading. Thanks. I recently met an elderly person who is really very concerned about the whole switch over, as she only has a landline. She does have a computer, but no smart phone or mobile. There was a power cut for about 8 hours, and without her landline she wouldn't have been able to call an ambulance for her neighbour, who ironically had a smart phone, but it was flat and she couldn't charge it! She doesn't want a smart phone or a mobile, and feels she's being forced into a corner by having to give up her landline.  She's not the only one obviously - probably thousands in the same position. The fear of a power outage and being unable to call anyone weighs heavy on them.

Victoria Diamond ● 606d

Talk Talk are now offering free upgrades to FTTP where OpenReach or other fibre wholesale suppliers have installed the infrastructure: https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/09/broadband-isp-talktalk-start-free-automatic-uk-fttp-upgrades.html The communications looks reasonably clear about when an upgrade will be unsuitable at present for a subscriber who still needs a device that relies on PSTN copper pairs or for some other reason. Very frustrating that Putney is lagging behind on fibre installations. The Clapham Junction area is now getting FTTP from Community Fibre; a friend discussed with me whether they should get 1Gb or 3Gb - a consistent 60Mb or so would be good in Putney! I can see from the top of the telegraph poles around East Putney that it's on its way, but when? https://www.flickr.com/gp/m-j-i/6e6Yg0wW03

Michael Ixer ● 608d

Thanks for all this.  It will take some time to digest.  Customers do not all have the same needs and these need to be taken into account for a smooth and successful changeover!  BT doesn't always show true illustrations of their equipment and this would help understanding.

Philippa Bond ● 609d

End of an era … for better or for worse, BT OpenReach have announced the cessation of sales of analogue, PSTN, two wire copper phone services, except in some cases where they have continuing commercial agreements with other telcos.https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/09/openreach-stops-selling-new-uk-analogue-copper-phone-lines.html

Michael Ixer ● 614d

Thank you Philippa for the link to the You  and Yours programme. I thought it telling that BT declined to appear. What are they afraid of?When I got the DV notification I wrote to Philip Jensen and I have delayed switching over.  I have a landline in every room but it looks as if I'll be deprived of this convenience. Although I have a mobile I rarely use it, certainly in the house unless I need to phone a tradesman who only has a mobile number. Certainly I don't want to have to carry it around with me.It is immensely frustrating.

Elizabeth Balsom ● 617d

This just appeared in my newsfeed. It appears Silver Voices (not an organisation I'm familiar with) are withdrawing support from BT's restart of the Digital Voice rollout. My reading of it is that Age UK are still ok with it but perhaps they could still retract support as well? I still think there's scope for better communications between the various parties. Interestingly, I'd read a while ago that a "landline only" DV option would be available for those who didn't want a broadband package. (BT would still provide, depending on progress converting to fibre, a copper or fibre IP connection but it would only have bandwidth and routing to support VoIP.) I also suspect it wouldn't support extensions. However, it seemed to disappear from marketing BT's marketing material until the mention here.https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/09/silver-voices-withdraws-support-for-bts-digital-voice-transition.html

Michael Ixer ● 617d

Thanks, Philippa, interesting listening, and also interesting that BT didn't want to appear to present their case. I see Think Broadband have published a follow up to this: https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/9679-pstn-switch-off-hiccups-still-causing-problems-for-the-public Listening to this programme, in my opinion the technology isn't the main problem here, it comes down to the reasons many IT projects disappoint or sometimes fail completely: insufficient planning, communications and training. This seems to be compounded by the way BT marketing has packaged a generic technology, Voice over IP (VoIP), into their own product: Digital Voice (DV). For reasons known to themselves this stipulates that cabled extension phones are not supported and any extensions are provided either by BT's wireless DV Adaptors or a DECT system plugged into the phone socket on the BT Hub. Firstly, my perception from the programme is that planning seems to be focused on just providing a switch from PSTN to DV in "ideal" circumstances. It seems to have limited capability for the installations where difficulties arise because of poor wireless transmission to extensions, where a hub is located in a position that has difficult or inconvenient access for a phone to be plugged directly into it and where other exceptions such care alarms or special handsets must be catered for. The plans seem inadequate in highlighting those customers who are vulnerable and may need additional support and assistance. (I'd also wonder if the installers are alloted a time for each setup and might be penalised or have additional paperwork if that time is exceeded so might do the minimum additional work or a quick "fix" where exceptions occur?) Secondly, communications between consumers, installers and service staff seems to be inadequate in dealing with exceptions and vulnerable customers, and ensuring they are provided with a safe, reliable and easy to use service. It sounds like too much bias is put on pushing the marketing message rather than listening to customer concerns? Thirdly, the training doesn't seem to have covered how installation and support staff should deal with vulnerable customers and other exceptions. I also sense that OpenReach training of their installers has been limited to providing a minimal solution corresponding with the marketing constraints rather than what is technically possible. (I can see reasons for that in order to keep control over the solution but there should be a senior technician with in-depth knowledge who can override that when it can be shown a customer needs a more flexible setup. ) Finally, there seems to be no technical reason why existing phone extensions can't be supported, as this Think Broadband article discusses: https://www.thinkbroadband.com/guides/digital-voice-pstn-switch-off-and-telephone-extensions My initial reaction to the case raised in the You and Yours programme was the same as that of the Think Broadband interviewee; just install a long extension cable from the BT Hub to the existing phone with big buttons - and make sure it's neatly secured so it's not a trip hazard- job done! As the Think Broadband article indicates, in theory with some small changes to cabling existing extension phones can be supported. Some words of caution: one - I don't know if that breaches the BT customer agreement; two - I'm not sure if, because they don't support extensions, BT publishes the REN¹ of their Hub so it may be difficult to ascertain how many extension phones a BT Hub can support . For some it might be worth considering a different VoIP provider and service to BT's Digital Voice. Alternative suppliers might be more amenable to connecting extensions to a router but that's obviously adding another possible complexity. (Although if one's broadband fibre is supplied by a company other than BT - for example, City Fibre - that's likely to be the case anyway.) The other consideration is whether one can transport one's landline phone number from BT to an alternative VoIP provider. Ofcom's advice says it is only a problem if you're also moving home as well although I thought there were sometimes technical issues but perhaps they've been resolved now. https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecoms-and-internet/advice-for-consumers/costs-and-billing/switching/switching-landline There is also an Ofcom summary about the change to VoIP: https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecoms-and-internet/advice-for-consumers/future-of-landline-calls However, in fairness to BT, my perceptions are based on complaints in programmes such as You and Yours; perhaps there are many installations for vulnerable customers that work successfully so never get publicity (although it's interesting that BT didn't want the opportunity to say that on the radio). I also understand OpenReach are under a lot of political and commercial pressure to provide gigabit fibre broadband to as many of us as possible by the end of this decade. (I must admit I'm one of those who longs to have a decent fibre connection to my home rather than the lash up of fibre to the cabinet and "very high bandwidth" digital subscriber line (VDSL) - sometimes not very high - over the PSTN copper to my home.) Perhaps those pressures may have caused the issues with planning, communications and training? ¹REN: Ring Equivalence Number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringer_equivalence_number

Michael Ixer ● 617d