Forum Topic

The Kiss

Appalling to see the male majority Spanish Football Association on the news, applauding their president’s refusal to step down. And how many times is the “consensual” defense falsely claimed in cases of assault against women?

Lisa Cottam ● 1170d34 Comments

It gets worse in the Spanish case: the 79 women’s football players who signed a letter in which they refused to play for their country as long as Rubiales remains in his post have now been threatened with legal action by the Spanish football federation because, it outrageously claims, “playing for the national team is an obligation on any member of the federation called upon to do so."

Richard Carter ● 1170d

So the team has obligations but not the president. I still think, or hope, there will be a reckoning.

Lisa Cottam ● 1170d

I am waiting for the Rodin meme. That is the only humour I can find in this!

Lisa Cottam ● 1170d

What about this:"He used to kiss me on the lips - but now it's all over."

Alexander MacLeod ● 1170d

It seems that Hermoso has been consistent with her statements that it was not a consential kiss whereas Rubiales first apologised and is now saying there was consent; why then did he apologise? I see the Spanish football federation are now threatening legal action against Hermoso on the basis of video evidence, although some say that's been doctored. Perhaps the Spanish government and FIFA will take a more robust stance against Rubiales - and FIFA have now suspended Rubiales! I'm sure any sponsors won't be keen on the bad publicity Rubiales is generating for football. Had he just apologised and stepped away from the Spanish federation that might had brought closure for him. If it gets into a legal confrontation he'll probably need to leave the UEFA executive committee as well.

Michael Ixer ● 1170d

It is heartening to see another country pluck defeat from the jaws of victory.

David Ainsworth ● 1170d

Just popped up on my phone:Luis Rubiales: Spanish prosecutors open preliminary sex abuse investigationhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66640485

Sue Hammond ● 1168d

Good news!

Lisa Cottam ● 1167d

It really is!

Richard Carter ● 1167d

Yes, it's important the legal system in Spain takes charge of this and overrides the arrogance of the current misogynistic leadership of the Spanish football federation. 

Michael Ixer ● 1167d

I could not agree more, Michael!Hispanic, and Latinos for that matter, believe male superiority is paramount.....  GrrrrrRubiales is, as far as I am concerned, a horrible little man with some power or of some importance who believes he can get away with anything.The most ridiculous thing I learnt two days ago was his mother going on hunger strike.....Despicable is too polite a word!

Ivonne Holliday ● 1165d

"Hispanic, and Latinos for that matter, believe male superiority is paramount.."I'm pretty sure if not universal, it is a flaw in many cultures including here in the UK. Perhaps easier to spot from a distance??

Ed Robinson ● 1165d

Her initial statement issued through the press agency for Spanish football said,“It was a mutual, totally spontaneous gesture because of the huge joy of winning a World Cup. The ‘presi’ (Rubiales) and I have a great relationship… It was a natural gesture of affection and gratitude.”I'm not sure that she has denied saying that although 'sources' have claimed that it is a made up quote.Looking at the timeline of what happened here, it seems likely that initially she wasn't that offended by the kiss but took issue with the Spanish FA which falsely claimed she initiated it. You could argue that the initial description of mutual wouldn't necessarily contradict a later claim that the kiss was non-consensual.Ultimately, only the two people most directly involved will ever know the full truth of the matter. That it has become such a big issue internationally probably has a lot to do with the factionalism within the Spanish FA and the dysfunctional relationship between the coaching staff and the women's team. That a World Cup win didn't heal this is extraordinary and can only mean the divisions are deep. What is stunning is that the players managed to win the tournament in this environment.

Peter Higgins ● 1164d

In some early reports before the press release she is quoted as expressing discomfort and dislike with the kiss. That corresponds with my memory of the reporting on the day (although I didn't watch the match I did see reporting of it on BBC News immediately afterwards). I guess the Spanish legal investigation will be able to view any Instagram live material as well as all the videos?https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/21/spanish-football-chief-criticised-over-kissing-player

Michael Ixer ● 1164d

I thought that a " A kiss is just a kiss"

Patrick D Barrs ● 1163d

HalloIf the woman didn't like being kissed, then she should just have pushed the guy away, or indeed, slapped his face.  Job done.

Carole Tanner ● 1162d

Are you suggesting that it was her fault that that odious man assaulted her? You make it sound rather easier than it must have been.

Richard Carter ● 1162d

Where does "machismo" come from?

Ivonne Holliday ● 1162d

From the "cojones", I guess.

David Ainsworth ● 1162d

Well, without wanting to get into writing an MBA thesis, we're into the subject of positional power. Perhaps if it was a stranger in the street one might take defensive action but when it's someone who's effectively in control or one's boss it's more difficult the know how to react, and the main point is that someone shouldn't be put in that position.

Michael Ixer ● 1162d

"we're into the subject of positional power."Indeed. People did not seem to reply to Prince Philip's "gaffes" as they might have done to some rude stranger in the street. Doubtless afterwards, many will have thought of suitable responses.

David Ainsworth ● 1161d

Balls!

Alexander MacLeod ● 1161d

Balls!

Alexander MacLeod ● 1161d

Thank you both for your explanations.However, my question was where does "machismo" come from, meaning places in the world.So far, all answers can be marked as "D".

Ivonne Holliday ● 1161d

I think the previous answers covered it.Everywhere where you find testosterone unfortunately so pretty much every place in the world.

Ed Robinson ● 1161d

Thank you, Michael, for explaining it so brilliantly! 

Ivonne Holliday ● 1161d

Well, I think a load of rubbish, the young lady had her arms around his waist.  He did it in front of everybody else, he was happy they had won, with the big smile on his face. Probably oblivious to what other people would think of him, it has just got out of hand. He grabbed her face not her backside.

Barbara Stevens ● 1161d

Ed,The previous answers are incorrect.The term machismo comes from Spain and Italy - hence hispanic and latino countries.

Ivonne Holliday ● 1161d

No, machismo is in the Cambridge Dictionary too.https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/machismo

David Ainsworth ● 1160d

There seems to be a confusion here between the origin of the word, which is indeed Hispanic/Mexican,as Yvonne says, and where the behaviour is prevalent.

Jane Carter ● 1160d

As I said, I didn't want to write an MBA thesis on this but, machismo or not, there are other indicators that there might be a problem with the culture and attitude of the Spanish football federation's leadership. There are plenty of clips showing Rubiales grabbing his crotch while he's almost next to the Spanish Queen and her sixteen year old daughter ... then we have the fact that about a year ago fifteen members of the Spanish team refused to work with their coach; it's unclear why they claimed Vilda affected their health and emotional state. (My understanding is they were told they could be suspended but weren't but there seemed to be no investigation as to why they took this action?)Something doesn't seem quite right - I'm no football expert but I would not expect a professional leader to act like Rubiales did in public, let alone in front of his Royal family, or is that type of behaviour common amongst football managers? Ratner claiming his products were rubbish seems trivial by comparison! (Although he did damage sales …)

Michael Ixer ● 1160d

Well, Spain was ruled by Franco for 36 years and I believe that he did not have very feminist views.

David Ainsworth ● 1160d

Perhaps when it's Woody Allen supporting you it's time to slip away quietly?https://www.smh.com.au/culture/movies/he-wasn-t-raping-her-woody-allen-defends-spanish-football-boss-over-world-cup-kiss-20230905-p5e21f.html

Michael Ixer ● 1160d

At last, and long after it should have happened, Jorge Vilda, the widely reviled coach of the Spanish women's team has been sacked.https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/sep/05/jorge-vilda-sacked-as-spain-coach-amid-continuing-fallout-over-rubiales-kiss

Richard Carter ● 1159d