Forum Topic

Starmer's Demands On Benefits For Illegal Immigrants

I received this WhatsApp message this morning:Read this and then pass it on to everyone you know.In 2003 the Labour party was taken to court by a lefty lawyer who demanded illegal immigrants get benefits.He won the case and this laid the ground for todays scandal of hotel and benefits for illegal migrantsThe lefty lawyer who won the case wasKier StarmerIs this correct?  I didn't know about this but if it is true it is indicative as to why Starmer is so ambiguous about illegal immigrants now.

Sue Hammond ● 915d71 Comments

Well here is the First World War:https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/commonwealth-and-first-world-warhttps://www.iwm.org.uk/history/the-role-of-empire-and-commonwealth-troops-during-the-battle-of-the-sommeThen there is WW2 and plenty of other wars - and here most telling the treatment of veterans debated in parliament:https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2019-05-08/debates/3468AACC-1059-41E2-821F-EA20D21754FD/CommonwealthPersonnelInTheArmedForces

Philippa Bond ● 906d

"May I ask what shocks you the most, please?"That the DM feigns shock.

David Ainsworth ● 907d

Most refugees that reach the UK are from countries that the UK has helped to destroy by war or destabilised by other means.A good many of those wars were initiated by Labour. Many of the MP's that voted for the wars are still there. But more shocking many that voted again and again to block the inquiry into the Iraq war. Not to mention locking up and torturing journalists that expose the truth!The Conservative policy is to try and stop the boats - at any cost. More people drowned recently so the intent is correct.Labours view is unclear as they will not reverse anything the Conservatives do. But what is their alternative?Safe roots some people say. So how many million should the UK take?Parts of Scotland are vastly depopulated. In a fair world the UK would have to pay war reparations.Have you ever heard those that proposed safe roots say how many?I've heard things like "our fair share". Let's be clear a fair share is not a few thousand, even a million would be too low.Such is the scale of the destruction unleashed when destroying countries.

Ed Robinson ● 907d

May I ask what shocks you the most, please?

Ivonne Holliday ● 907d

Mr Hawkes,I think being less facetious will help enormously.Doctors are going "down under" because they are not only being paid more, but most certainly appreciated a lot more.There is no point of moving to Ascencion Island if the facilities are not there, do you not agree?

Ivonne Holliday ● 907d

"Alp Mehmet of Migration Watch, which campaigns for tougher border controls, added: ‘This is shocking. It is beyond belief that lawyers would pervert the course of justice by concocting stories" (DM article)I'm shocked, shocked!

David Ainsworth ● 907d

"Have they started ?"You obviously know, so perhaps you can tell us.

David Ainsworth ● 907d

Ms HollidayAs we read that doctors think they are so badly paid they are moving in droves down under, perhaps some might be paid to stop over on Ascencion Island

John Hawkes ● 907d

Mr Ainsworth'I doubt that 1500 years are available to work on the problem.'Have they started ?When did they spot monsoons cause floods ?

John Hawkes ● 907d

"As distinct from Holland where pretty much all of the land mass is below sea level but is protected by a sophisticated system of dams and dykes."I doubt that 1500 years are available to work on the problem.http://dutchdikes.net/history/

David Ainsworth ● 907d

Migrants before Brexit could be shared between all 26? EU countries.  Isn't it just 2 countries we now have agreements over migrants with?

Philippa Bond ● 907d

Nigeria is not a war-torn country...  is the Biafran war so easily forgotten.?  It was certainly more recent than WW2.

Philippa Bond ● 907d

Immigrants from the Philippines and India - ready trained no doubt to work in our hospitals...

Philippa Bond ● 907d

British governance or Nigerian governance?

Philippa Bond ● 907d

I am aware of that bit of steps that Australia took, thank you Mr Hawkes.You must be aware that, in Ascencion Island, there is only small hospital that deals with day-to-day complaints; anything more complicated they need to be evacuated to the UK.

Ivonne Holliday ● 907d

Mr Hawkes. The person who wrote the article was suggesting she was being deliberately tainted even though there's no suggestion she was acting in any way that was illegal.Yes, there are bad lawyers (I'm aware of some that have been struck off for misappropriating client funds that were white British like me) just as there are bad accountants, builders, financial advisors, doctors, IT consultants, cyber security experts but that's no excuse to taint others where there's no evidence. If one's going to keep a dossier then it should be balanced and fair. Perhaps the Conservative party will be deluged with subject access requests from human rights lawyers? As Mr Farage pointed out, they're a good way of asserting one's rights.

Michael Ixer ● 907d

Mr Ixer'Nasty tactics. Interesting that the Conservative party are keeping dossiers on those they are attacking - they're inadvertently being leaked; nasty and incompetent?'Perhaps someone should as there is obviously a cohort of immigration lawyers of East Asian background who are using dubious defences on behalf of their clients 'Lawyers charging £10,000 to make fake asylum claims: Special investigation exposes staff at immigration law firms briefing clients on how to LIE to the authorities to win the right to stay in Britain'https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12333013/Immigration-law-firms-LIE-authorities-win-asylum.htmlNot just a Mail-ism for following this -'SRA investigating after Mail’s covert sting on immigration lawyers'https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/sra-investigating-after-mails-covert-sting-on-immigration-lawyers/5116773.article

John Hawkes ● 907d

Ms Carter,I for one am NOT a colonial denier.Colonialism was a natural process for many countries for centuries.Hence the British Empire.But I am also a believer in the fact that GB some seven decades ago started a retreat from this as a policy and on withdrawal left the governance of colonised countries in the hands of the indigenous population.Strangely though some countries said to have been harmed by this policy decided to stay associated with us by remaining in the Commonwealth !

John Hawkes ● 907d

Mr Hawkes, I was canvassing the opinion of those on the Putney Forum. Thank you for yours. 

Michael Ixer ● 907d

Mr Ixer'Would you consider the developed world's excessive use of fossil fuels leading to climate change and global warming perhaps causing crop failure and famine, and loss of land from rising sea levels a destabilising effect'?A good question perhaps better addressed to India and China (are they not developed ?) and not to the UK which I believe contributes 0.9% of climate influencing gases.

John Hawkes ● 907d

Mr Robinson'How many come from countries which have not been destabilized and have had natural disasters and what countries are they from?'How long does it take a country destabilised by UK to regain a stable civic society ?The countries most susceptible to flooding are in SE Asia which we withdrew from decades ago.Unfortunately the governments that took over were incapable or unwilling to step up to addressing the problem.As distinct from Holland where pretty much all of the land mass is below sea level but is protected by a sophisticated system of dams and dykes.

John Hawkes ● 907d

Ms Holliday'Also, it seems that the Government was considering the alternative of Ascencion Island....'Similar approach taken a few years back by Australia and surprise, surprise it cut down the number of their boat people enormously !

John Hawkes ● 907d

Mr Robinson'The rest is wars and coups due to Western policies'.Do you want to give some examples ?Simplistic view of history and current affairs to blame all regional and tribal disputes, especially in Africa, on the 'west'.The desire to adventure into foreign parts for pecuniary gain has been a natural instinct since the 15th century.And then before that of course there's them pesky Romans, Scandinavians  and Normans !

John Hawkes ● 907d

I think you have not looked at the number and are in colonial denial territory.Perhaps you could tell us where we might find these ‘colonial deniers’ and how many there are

Jane Carter ● 907d

Would you consider the developed world's excessive use of fossil fuels leading to climate change and global warming perhaps causing crop failure and famine, and loss of land from rising sea levels a destabilising effect?

Michael Ixer ● 908d

"There are also people taking refuge from the problems caused by natural disasters"I think you have not looked at the number and are in colonial denial territory.Obviously if the natural disaster occurs in a country we have destabilized then that country will not cope well.How many come from countries which have not been destabilized and have had natural disasters and what countries are they from?

Ed Robinson ● 908d

It doesn't have to be bombing that causes the destruction of homes and businesses and utilities and services which causes prople to move.  Although when that happens many will seek to join family and friends overseas.  There are also people taking refuge from the problems caused by natural disasters - flooding, storm damage which pollutes all fresh water and ability to grow food, wild fires.  Much of which is the result of increased global warming.

Philippa Bond ● 908d

Kidnapping asylum seekers and have the flown to Guantanamo Bay or another similar location to be tortured might be a future Labour policy based on previous Labour government actions.Perhaps lets not create asylum seekers in the first place is the best policy for all!

Ed Robinson ● 908d

I fairly sure only a fairly low percentage are caused by natural disasters.The rest is wars and coups due to Western policies.You are in colonial denial territory.Do you want to give some examples?

Ed Robinson ● 908d

Displaced people aren't just caused by wars or bombing by others or their own forces.

Philippa Bond ● 908d

@ Philippa 5.08"Many people have EMIGRATED to other countries FROM the U.K.. What if they were all sent back?"Agreed but I assume they applied to emigrate via the application process and did not enter the countries illegally in the backs of lorries or in dinghies. Those who do so are CRIMINALS and enable the people smugglers to continue their trade in human misery. There was a recent report of several being thrown overboard because they were fighting over space in the inflatable. In my opinion all countries should be able to deport criminals back to the country of their birth or wherever they said they came from.

Sue Hammond ● 908d

Very nasty tactics.  One can assume that the dossier was inadvertently leaked on purpose? On the BBC website:  Tories could campaign to leave European human rights treaty if Rwanda flights blocked.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66438422Also, it seems that the Government was considering the alternative of Ascencion Island....https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ascension-island-rwanda-population-map-b2388720.html

Ivonne Holliday ● 909d

Nasty tactics. Interesting that the Conservative party are keeping dossiers on those they are attacking - they're inadvertently being leaked; nasty and incompetent?https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/08/immigration-lawyer-braverman-smear-campaign-rightwing-press-deported-to-rwanda

Michael Ixer ● 909d

Yes but we don't need to keep doing the bombing and overthrowing regimes while at the same time supporting oppressive regimes.Stop creating millions of displaced people. Perhaps then the UK can have a sensible asylum policy. It can't be done the other way around and to suggest so is nonsense.

Ed Robinson ● 910d

When people's lives are threatened, their homes and workplaces bombed and way of life destroyed by war or natural disaster and life becomes not only intolerable but impossible then they consider and do move.  It has always happened and will continue to happen.  Many people have EMIGRATED to other countries FROM the UK.  What if they were all sent back?

Philippa Bond ● 911d

"Re wars and displaced people we are damned if we intervene and damned if we don't."We just can't help being so kind & helpful it seems.Colonial views after all are hard to let go.

Ed Robinson ● 911d

Watching a programme on Tony Bennet last night we were reminded how the capital of capitalism New York was founded on immigration.Re wars and displaced people we are damned if we intervene and damned if we don't.  People are still displaced whatever we do.

Philippa Bond ● 911d

Countries are repaid in spades for their generosity. Immigrant contribution to the economy is so often overlooked in favour of recycling “Great Replacement” theory in its latest permutation. For example, immigrants are twice as likely as UK natives to start a business and create jobs:https://www.gemconsortium.org/news/Enterprising%20immigrants%20boosting%20prosperity%20in%20the%20UK#:~:text=The%20new%20GEM%20report%20for,to%20be%20early%2Dstage%20entrepreneurs.

Lisa Cottam ● 912d

"The numbers of course would be fewer if the Govt would actually get around to processing them"Is it possible that the delay is being used as a deterrent??Yes, harvesting the well educated after displacement them makes perfect humane leftist sense - possibly even Blairite.For their own good of course - just like the displacement. It seems our problem is that we just can't stop giving! It's a mystery how other countries are gaining worldwide influence with such generosity.

Ed Robinson ● 912d

What gets me is that there are so many displaced peoples who are just as well educated or better educated and certainly more willing to work who are being denied the chance to which also includes the chance of contributing to our society.  The numbers of course would be fewer if the Govt would actually get around to processing them.  Sucessive Govts pander to the population and their extreme supporters by not facing up to problems and raising enough taxes early enough so that everyone is paying enough for the services to which they now feel entitled.  It is later generations not our own who are/will be picking up the tab.  We have been relyingb on cheap labour from abroad instead of educating and training our own and now with an increasing elderly population living longer it seems that quite a few chickens are coming home to roost.

Philippa Bond ● 912d

Mr Hawkers, certainly an interesting social system where visiting UK business people need an armed escort when travelling between locations they're going to :-)

Michael Ixer ● 913d

Ms Hammond'Most of Nigeria's economic and social failures can be blamed on decades of corrupt and inefficient Governance'. I am sure that is trueMy fear is that the doubtful attitudes and behaviours of such countries are brought over here by their emigrants to the UK.Good example is what has been revealed by the activities of the 'immigration lawyers' revealed recently.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12333013/Immigration-law-firms-LIE-authorities-win-asylum.htmlAll seem to be from countries where public standards might be said at least to be traditionally 'a little iffy' !

John Hawkes ● 913d

Very well put, Lisa.

Michael Ixer ● 913d

Mr Ainsworth'Well, we fought the Second World War at their expense'.Intriguing comment.What does it mean ?

John Hawkes ● 913d

Mr Ainsworth'I'd say that you have to be in a pretty desperate situation to try this:'Who knows the details of this person's background.Nigeria is by many standards a country with a thriving economy and reasonable legal and other social systems.So perhaps he left either because he had done something wrong or thought in the UK he could make a living more easily than in his homeland.Neither of these reasons necessarily make him a persecuted hero nor place any obligation on us to let him remain here.And the fact he had no idea where he was going doesn't make him sound like someone who is going to make a great contribution to our society - in fact the opposite.Where is he going to live and will he qualify for legitimate work ?

John Hawkes ● 913d

I really don't get this at all! So a lawyer did his job... and if he were a doctor would you be outraged that he provided medical assistance?

Lisa Cottam ● 913d

Page 19 of link below has a graphic that shows which countries refugees com from from 1989-2021War is a major factor.The concept that while someone is in their own country we can bomb, machine gun, poison, destabilise their governments, arm extremists, feed misinformation to provoke mass murder, rob & steal their resources - but as soon as they get to the UK they become human has always struck me as a bit odd.https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01403/SN01403.pdf

Ed Robinson ● 914d

"I cannot remember anything about this.  There again that was 20 years ago."Not that long ago just the length of one of the UK's wars.An extract below. Fairly well documented and of course news at the time. The Tory government just continued Labour's policy."The number of asylum applications to the UK peaked in 2002 at 84,132. After that the number fell sharply to reach a twenty-year low point of 17,916 in 2010, before rising slowly to reach 32,733 in 2015. The number fell, then rose again and then dipped during the first year of the pandemic (2020). In 2021, it rose to 50,042 applications, the highest level since 2002.  "https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01403/SN01403.pdf

Ed Robinson ● 914d

Ha ha ha!!  Brilliant, Michael I!!  :-):-):-):-)

Ivonne Holliday ● 914d

No problem, Ivonne. I think the Forum's clock challenges Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity ...

Michael Ixer ● 914d

But I must add that the reality in 2003 was completely different to the one we have today.Dare I say it was even before the financial crisis of 2008! And that one had nothing to do with immigrants but yes greedy banks....History seems to repeat itself - sooner than we expect!

Ivonne Holliday ● 914d

Apologies Michael I, I did not see it.I think a lot has to be said for the forum's clock!!!  :-)

Ivonne Holliday ● 914d

I thought they were all coming here because they were told there were so many hospitals, schools and dentists. Even when we were at Bourne End about 4 yrs ago up river at the Bounty Pub, lovely Pub. A man and his wife sat down at our table, he said Putney is the place to live, that's what he said.

Barbara Stevens ● 914d

@DAWhich young Britons wanted to better their lives in Africa? I am not following this line of reasoning at all.

Sue Hammond ● 914d

Ivonne. It was answered in the article I posted below; the case involved six asylum seekers from Angola, Rwanda (interesting), Ethiopia, Iraq and Iran, with another 150 likely to be affected by it.

Michael Ixer ● 914d

Hello Sue,I cannot remember anything about this.  There again that was 20 years ago.I do not think the massive waves of immigrants crossing the Mediterranean had started yet.  Did all this not start in 2011 when Cameron was PM?Do you know which illegal immigrants were arriving in the UK?  The highest immigration at the time I think came from the Philippines and India.....

Ivonne Holliday ● 914d

"Most of Nigeria's economic and social failures can be blamed on decades of corrupt and inefficient Governance." Yeah, let's just cut out the stuff in history which shows us in a bad light. Snip, snip."You cannot blame the young for wanting to better their lives in another country but they are not welcome anywhere as illegal immigrants."You cannot blame the young Britons for wanting to better their lives in Africa but then they were not defined as illegal immigrants, and unwelcoming locals were discouraged violently.

David Ainsworth ● 914d

This seems to be the case in question:https://irr.org.uk/article/asylum-seekers-win-temporary-reprieve-from-impending-destitution/Nothing showed up about an appeal or its outcome if one took place.

Michael Ixer ● 914d

Sue, I understood Starmer took a number of cases regarding rights. I haven't followed his career, the only one I'm aware of was when he provided pro bono support in the McLibel case where those being sued by McDonald's had to defend themselves. One assumes the solicitors acting for the defendents approached Starmer as they knew he was a good lawyer with knowledge in that field. I think it would be unusual for a barrister to instigate a case, but I'm not familiar with all the details of the case. The quote from the WhatsApp post has even fewer than I've gleaned from a couples of minutes on Google.

Michael Ixer ● 914d

Most of Nigeria's economic and social failures can be blamed on decades of corrupt and inefficient Governance. You cannot blame the young for wanting to better their lives in another country but they are not welcome anywhere as illegal immigrants.

Sue Hammond ● 914d

"So they are fed and watered for 6 months, at our expense."Well, we fought the Second World War at their expense.

David Ainsworth ● 914d

"In fact, the 2021 Notre Dame Global Adaptation Index ranks Nigeria as the 53rd most-vulnerable country and the 6th least-ready country in the world to adapt to climate change.As a result, growing desperation over food supply is driving resource conflicts across Nigeria.""Although Nigeria has 2.6 percent of the world’s population, it is only responsible for 0.26 percent of global emissions.""In the end, Nigeria will require the assistance of the international community to successfully manage its climate fragility risks. With a population projected to balloon to 400 million by 2050, the stakes are high not only for Nigeria, but for the continent and rest of the world."https://tinyurl.com/2dwshhp5Who created Nigeria?"Britain’s consolidation of Nigeria as a single colony has been the source of most of the major political conflicts that have roiled the country since independence." (New York Review of Books, 8th June 2023).

David Ainsworth ● 914d

So they are fed and watered for 6 months, at our expense.

Barbara Stevens ● 915d

@DANigeria is not a war-torn country although there is some conflict in the North therefore most Nigerians do not qualify for refugees status. In the main they are economic migrants as youth unemployment is very high. In 2020, the country's National Bureau of Statistics reported that 53.4 per cent of young people were unemployed and it is probably even worse now. The example you have posted is an extreme one and thankfully not typical at all.  There is a way for Nigerians to seek asylum here: How can Nigerians seek asylum in the UK?When you apply you'll have a meeting with an immigration officer (known as a 'screening'). After your screening the Home Office will decide if your claim can be considered in the UK. If it can, you'll have an asylum interview with a caseworker. You'll get a decision on your application within 6 months.

Sue Hammond ● 915d

Read this this morning. The sea water couldn't have done them much good.

Barbara Stevens ● 915d

Michael you are either missing my point or being deliberately disingenuous. The fact is Starmer raised the issue in the first place which clearly shows where his sympathies lie. Perhaps he should use his legal mind to try and sort out the home grown issues of people born here and struggling to cope or our veterans having nowhere to live. Our own people are more important than illegal immigrants.

Sue Hammond ● 915d

I'd say that you have to be in a pretty desperate situation to try this:-"Nigerian stowaways survive 14-day trip across Atlantic on ship's rudder, drank ocean water: reportMan says he thought he was 'going to Europe'"https://www.foxnews.com/world/nigerian-stowaways-survive-14-day-trip-across-atlantic-ships-rudder-drank-ocean-water-report

David Ainsworth ● 915d

Yes, Barbara, it is disgusting that people can't get NHS treatment. However, Starmer took on that case twenty years ago when the NHS was in reasonable shape under a Labour government, since then we've just had thirteen years of the current Tory government underfunding of the NHS which is why people can't get an NHS dentist now. So in my opinion it's disingenuous to try and link the two situations.Interesting that it was Blunkett who was home secretary at the time in 2003; someone probably a lot "leftie" than Sir Kier :-)

Michael Ixer ● 915d

Yes Michael, but only the other day, you had front News in the paper, Lawyers telling them what to say to stay in the Country by making up stories and telling lies. Perhaps the Judge wasn't English or in 2003 didn't realize how the situation would escalate.

Barbara Stevens ● 915d

This is disgusting, on the News even this morning most people are unable to get a NHS Dentist. We have paid for years NHS. Yet they can come here get fed, bedded, watered, also all the medical treatment as well. Yet our own people are pulling out their own teeth and hair with how we are being treated. Already Surbiton 2 were stabbed who were staying in a Hotel by one of their own.  Why is the government putting them everywhere, ordinary people are having their lives put in danger.

Barbara Stevens ● 915d

Sue, but it was the judge who made the decision. Are you saying he was also a lefty, and biased rather than applying the law? Perhaps the reason Starmer got to be DPP and was knighted is because he was an excellent lawyer? 

Michael Ixer ● 915d