Forum Topic

Yet another benefit from the Brexit bonanza!

The goverment planned, as part of the process of escaping the evil clutches of the Brussels bureaucracy, to launch a new quality symbol, the UKCA mark, to replace the CE mark, to symbolise our liberation from the EU tyranny. But when it came to it,  it discovered that firms found the double system added to their work because of - wait for it - the consequntial extra bureaucracy and costs. So, in a humiliating turnaround, it has announced that it is effectively to abandon the UKCA mark, leaving firms to use the CE mark after all. Brussels 1 Brexit 0 !Even Sue Hammond's cat would surely laugh at this farce!

Richard Carter ● 916d37 Comments

"Why is there now apparently a crisis now in care services"There has been for decades. You can import cheaper labour but when they settle they too will need higher wages.One of the reasons the UK has population issue is it is not providing the necessities for people to have families. You either have to be very rich or very poor."I can tell you even if you paid me £100K a year.."Obviously if you are used to getting 100K in an IT job the same pay in a completely different job isn't going to be appealing. The average UK salary is very low and basing decisions on the top 1% is not very logical.Interesting that the UK has fallen well behind the US in terms of pay for normal jobs.We are a low pay nation and oddly enough it is part of Labour's policy.Thatcher, who destroyed the mining communities and Blair who rather kick the issue even further in the long grass and continue to pay for inactivity and successive governments to a lesser extent have continued this foolish policy.They would have you believe that there were no British miners throughout the country doing one of the most demanding jobs.Pay good pay and stop robbing them through utilities and excessive rent/housing and we be just fine. Continue with this folly and the UK will become an exporter of the young people.

Ed Robinson ● 908d

I didn't say that. I said at present there are too few people for too many jobs, and people's skills have to fit the jobs. I can tell you even if you paid me £100K a year I'd be an awful care worker - as you may have noticed I don't always have much patience.Yes, care workers have been poorly paid for decades but the pressure on them seems to have been increasing over the last decade? Why is there now apparently a crisis now in care services?My understanding is we have an ageing population so need immigration to fill the gaps, or take the Japanese approach of developing robots as care assistants?

Michael Ixer ● 908d

No Michael,poor pay and conditions is down to the current and previous governments including Labour.When pay was increased it attracted more applicants to HGV driving jobs.The ideal that British people can not do hard jobs is a myth and being used as an excuse for low pay. There is still a large percentage of the population that are inactive in the job market.Following Thatcherite policies have been a disaster for the UK  but I guess Labour will continue with her low pay policies.

Ed Robinson ● 908d

There were changes made. https://www.hgvc.co.uk/major-changes-to-hgv-driving-test-rules-announced/They were indirectly linked to Brexit in that EU drivers went home during the pandemic and my understanding is they didn't return because of the hassles with border controls. As I've said before no problem with paying wages but my understanding is that there's to few people for too many jobs. Having said that, care workers do have some of the worst pay and conditions but that comes down to current government policies. Even if pay and  conditions were good not everyone is temperamental suited to care work.

Michael Ixer ● 908d

"This Govt decided to reduce the training needed to be an HGV driver"Do you have any evidence of that? Not that is a Brexit issue."A lack of care workers..'Care workers need proper pay and conditions. Importing people to work in jobs at rates they can not live on is exploitation and short sighted!

Ed Robinson ● 908d

This Govt decided to reduce the training needed to be an HGV driver and also more recently wants to take away the visa listing for care workers.  A lack of care workers contributes to the NHS problems as they're needed so patients can leave hospitals and free up beds.

Philippa Bond ● 908d

It used to be easier to get day release and other training.  What has happened to the night schools of old where people could study and work during the day?  Online courses are just not the same.  There has been moreveffort more recently to provide apprenticeships.Work of course has changed a lot and most people no longer expect to be with the same company until they retire.

Philippa Bond ● 908d

Apologies Michael for my misreading,Low wages are however and were part of Labour party policy.A very rare but credit where it is due, the government did the right thing with regard to HGV drivers. Labour's solution was to import more drivers to continue to suppress pay. There is a similar discussion concerning care workers - I'm not sure how that is going to end.Oddly enough this is not really Brexit related either. Brexit just shows up many of the underlying UK issues that have been there for decades.It's about investing and training your workforce. Adult education and reskilling. And not using the increase in income tax revenue from the immigration boost the country received to keep people on benefits and out of work, which the Labour government did.The problem the UK has is it either blames everything on it's relationship with Europe. All ills will be cured if we rejoin or leave, in reality they are mainly UK problems that must be solved by the UK in or out.As for Tim Martin I've no idea. Perhaps he thinks if we are not going to do anything with Brexit then what was the point in leaving?

Ed Robinson ● 909d

Some companies operate a clawback scheme,  if one leaves before a specified period you pay for the cost of your training. 

Michael Ixer ● 910d

But when youngsters had training with a Company, even in our Country, not very nice they get their training then don't even stay at the Company for a few years.

Barbara Stevens ● 910d

I found it!!! Pint to the brim = with or without the foamy layer? https://www.festivalglass.co.uk/printing-techniques/ukca-marking.html

Ivonne Holliday ● 910d

Yes, Ed, and if you read my post it wasn't me supporting low wages it was that champion of Brexit, Tim Martin.

Michael Ixer ● 910d

"Labour's policy of flooding the UK with cheaper labour from the EU led to wages being suppressed"Oh, not that old chestnut again. Numerous studies showed that immigration had little or no effect on wages here, yet this stuff still gets wheeled out by the credulous.

Richard Carter ● 910d

There was no war or oppression in the countries that joined the EU. It's one of the conditions for enlargement.The ability for remainers to deny basic facts was yet another reason why Brexit occurred.The UK decision was purely economic.The alternative was that the UK would have to tackle underlined structural failures. Those failures are still there and will remain and are not dependent on being in or out of the EU.

Ed Robinson ● 910d

When you create a huge gap in life expectancy and life chances between countries you are also creating a greater draw for immigration.  Many may arrive for training and then they will take back expertise.  You disregard the great yearning many who move due to war and oppression have to return.

Philippa Bond ● 910d

Michael,Labour's policy of flooding the UK with cheaper labour from the EU led to wages being suppressed. Although there are some supply and demand deniers out there this is pretty much accepted.It was also a major contributor to the Brexit vote.It's why the other EU countries had quotas. The enlargement process adopted for Spain & Portugal was cast aside by the UK. What is worse is that Labour did not protect these workers and many were exploited. It also did not put them forefront of a Brexit policy. The shadow Brexit secretary is now the leader btw.In short paying workers a wage that is not sufficient to settle here, raise a family etc can not be justified just to give a cheap pint or cappuccino.Sorry but colonial days are over. All workers need fair pay that they can live on.

Ed Robinson ● 910d

Ed, I agree energy costs are the major factor but it's not that long ago that the great fan of Brexit, Tim Martin, was complaining about the shortage of staff post Brexit and having to increase wages (at one time quite a few of his staff, including pub managers, seemed to come from the EU, at least in London). I'm not saying pub staff shouldn't be paid more but it all contributes to higher prices unless there are ways of cutting costs - perhaps difficult 'cause you can't really have self service in pubs :-) Maybe using the app to order is more efficient?

Michael Ixer ● 910d

Yes Michael,but it is energy costs that have probably increased the cost of your pint the most not Brexit.It could be worse if we were not importing oil from India - that well known oil producer, but that is a different story."Refined oil (£1.6 billion or 15.2% of all UK goods imported from India) "https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1174811/india-trade-and-investment-factsheet-2023-08-01.pdfhttps://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/01/14/india-offers-russian-oil-back-door-britain/

Ed Robinson ● 910d

Ed, Brexit and the Lizz Truss effects were avoidable,they were poor Tory decisions. The Ukraine war probably wasn't. Well, not unless one could reverse some decisions made after the collapse of the Soviet Union ...

Michael Ixer ● 910d

Michael,Energy specify has had a huge impact. This is not unique to the UK although the UK has not dealt with the issue as well as some European countries.Over egging the Brexit impact is unnecessary as there are plenty of good examples with regard to exports etc."Energy costs set to sink UK pubs and brewers, new data shows"https://beerandpub.com/news/energy-costs-set-to-sink-uk-pubs-and-brewers-new-data-shows/“This year, we front-loaded significant price increases, often leading the market, to offset unprecedented levels of commodity and energy inflation, which impacted consumer off-take,” it said.https://www.standard.co.uk/business/heineken-profits-fall-beer-prices-print-cost-inflation-drink-alcohol-beavertown-birra-moretti-b1097680.html

Ed Robinson ● 910d

Ed. Inflation is caused by a number of factors: Brexit, the Ukraine war, the Liz Truss effect, etc. It was ironic that a couple of days after Sunak spoke about the duty changes and said beer in pubs would stay the same price Wetherspoon pubs put their prices up including that of Doombar, not one of the strongest beers. Another misleading statement? Just like the lie that Brexit would reduce red tape - tell that to those importing or exporting, and bands trying to tour Europe!

Michael Ixer ● 910d

"What this has to do with the new UKCA.."My reply was to the following: "Is that why the beer's gone up".As for: "Is the UK dependent on Russian energy?  I do not think so!"Sorry but the UK buys energy on the international market. The price on the international market has gone up due to the economic war with Russian following their invasion.Germany has reduced its dependence on cheap Russian energy by implementing a number of measures including moving a lot of energy intensive manufacturing abroad to USA/China.The ability for remainers to blame everything on Brexit is as bad as the Brexiteers excusing the impact. A bit of truth would have saved us all from the extremists on both sides.https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9491/"Why have energy prices increased?Prior to Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022 there was an increase in demand for oil and gas as economies around the world came out of lockdown. Supply did not keep pace with the higher demand for various reasons. Increased gas prices fed through to increased electricity prices.The Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022 caused oil and gas prices to jump due to concerns about disruption to supply. Sanctions on Russia, the embargo on Russian oil, a potential embargo on Russian gas and cuts in Russian gas supply to Europe have pushed oil and gas prices up further still. The price of electricity produced form gas has increased in line with gas prices and effectively sets the price for all power on wholesale markets. Lower electricity production in some sectors have also helped to push up power prices. Drought in parts of Europe have led to lower hydroelectric output and a large number of French Nuclear reactors were offline in late summer.Wholesale gas and electricity prices on the spot market fell in autumn 2022 to levels below those at the start of the year. There was a spike in prices during the early December, but prices have steadily fallen back again over winter and spring. The operation of the price cap and the EPG mean that there will be a substantial time lag before these lead to lower household bills."https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/articles/theimpactofsanctionsonuktradewithrussia/november2022"Imports of fuels from Russia fell rapidly at the start of 2022 and remain at historically low levels; fuel imports have fallen by 98.1%, with only £9.2 million imported in November 2022."

Ed Robinson ● 910d

Sorry, Ed, but I am not clear what you are trying to say. It is probably more to do with energy cost - yes, but the unique best in the workd set up we have in the UK?????The same set up before Brexit - hmmmmmm?Is the UK dependent on Russian energy?  I do not think so!Is Germany?  Yes it is/was but it appears it has reduced it considerably.What this has to do with the new UKCA + EC markings on pint glasses is puzzling me.I would greatly appreciate it if you could explain.

Ivonne Holliday ● 910d

"Is that why the beer's gone up"Probably more to do with energy costs & the unique best in the world set up that we have in the UK.It was the same setup before Brexit and it must be great because the opposition are not going to change it.Obviously sanctions have also impacted the price of energy with Europe being dependent on cheap Russian energy, but I guess it is easier to blame Brexit.

Ed Robinson ● 910d

Should I laugh or cry?I really have no idea what UKCA M23 0126 utopia pint nor CE M23 0866 utopia mean!!  I did not try to read the rest....

Ivonne Holliday ● 910d

Interesting that there's now CE & UKCA markings on Wetherspoon's pint glasses. Is that why the beer's gone up, paying for the extra bureaucracy?https://flic.kr/p/2oUcXGV

Michael Ixer ● 910d

Farmers and fishermen!!!At least now they have happy British fish, waving the Union Jack and singing Rule Britannia!!I know, facetious but this has happened!

Ivonne Holliday ● 914d

And the checking of imports from the EU is postponed again showing what a bad idea it was. I thought most farmers were in favour of Brexit? They seem to be whinging about it now …https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66394235

Michael Ixer ● 915d

I'm more concerned with what we put the quality mark (whichever one) on.Manufacturing down for 11 months in a row. Probably will get worse when interests rates rise again and again. Both the main parties support the rise of course..Germany in decline with so much manufacturing now moved overseas.I guess you could call it fast decarbonizing!

Ed Robinson ● 915d

Nice try, but it really is a humiliating climb down:https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/01/the-brexit-red-tape-illusion-has-been-exposed-by-the-tories-ce-mark-climbdownAnd even the Daily Mail admits it's rather a climb down by poor Sunak:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12361053/Rishi-Sunak-performs-Brexit-climbdown-PM-allows-British-firms-continue-using-EUs-CE-safety-mark-products-indefinitely-new-UKCA-alternative.html

Richard Carter ● 915d

I think Richard's real point (and I guess mine) is that many of the so called benefits aren't ever likely to materialise or will eventually be abandoned and the important thing about that is business and civil servants' time and taxpayers' money will be wasted on attempting to set them up and perhaps trying to operate them until they fail when those resources should be devoted to higher priorities such as negotiating additional agreements with the EU to improve the withdrawal agreement or spent on (perhaps) repairing Hammersmith Bridge or supporting the poorest in society?

Michael Ixer ● 915d

He has to get a little pleasure somewhere Sue.

Andy Pike ● 915d

Correction:So really it's Richard making a fuss over nothing! 😉

Sue Hammond ● 915d

So really it's a fuss over nothing!

Sue Hammond ● 915d

Sue, looking at the Guardian article I think you're right, UK companies can choose to use the UKCA standard. However, I can't see any company other than a small one supplying to UK retail customers and trying to show their Brexit credentials wanting to use it. It would make no financial sense to go for both accreditations and any manufacturer who is CE compliant will likely want all component suppliers to also be CE compliant as well. The whole thing is a nonsense, standards are there to cut costs and have a known consistency. Look at the IT networking world: despite their commercial muscle MS's, IBM's, even most ISO OSI basic protocol standards are long gone in favour of TCP/IP protocols originally developed by the US ARPA back in the 1960s. It doesn't make commercial or practical sense to have multiple standards without a functional purpose for it. I suspect UKCA will disappear in a few years. (Ok, I know elements of the OSI framework are still around but that's because sometimes they've been 'retrofitted' or new proprietary development have borrowed from it and put back into Internet RFCs.)

Michael Ixer ● 915d

@RichardFrom what I have read I understood that firms could use either one or both on their packaging. Their choice. I discussed it with Lily but as her food is imported from Canada she really didn't care.😼

Sue Hammond ● 916d

Yes, the only sensible thing to do: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/aug/01/uk-eu-safety-mark-brexit-climbdown Brexit is also causing issues for Eurostar when the UK should be encouraging train over plane travel: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/01/eurostars-gwendoline-cazenave-seamless-border-crossing-isnt-science-fiction And EU citizens are benefiting from online rights whereas our stupid government wants to jeopardise our online security by ending end-to-end encryption: https://www.reuters.com/technology/meta-seek-user-consent-targeted-ads-eu-2023-08-01/

Michael Ixer ● 916d