Forum Topic

ULEZ

It's on the news criminals, have been copying other people's number plates to avoid paying the ULEZ charges. Apart from that, if they do something wrong, the police could think it was you did the Bank Robbery etc. this happened to my son a few years ago. Danny who used to be in Danemere St, was working on it for my son. But Danny was now under the arches at Kew Bridge. I got rang by the Police something had happened  in Windsor and they had my sons number plate. Well my son had to let them know it was still being worked in in Kew.

Barbara Stevens ● 1018d59 Comments

I deliberately headed it with the date separately to accentuate it!History shows attempts to achieve cleaner air but also attempts to fight against those efforts.

Philippa Bond ● 1002d

that article was 2015.If we are going back in time may I quote from memory Joey from Friends?"No one asks for a lift to the airport when you have a motorcycle!"Here is a very good reviewer of the LEVC TX (EV Black cab).Base model £60K+ but realistically £70K+.UK manufactured in Coventry I think but factory is operating at a fraction of capacity so volumes are low and costs quite high.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmqxEHqqLdE

Ed Robinson ● 1003d

August 2015https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/aug/20/tory-lobbying-against-air-pollution-laws-smells-political-corruption

Philippa Bond ● 1003d

I'm sure you can always slice and dice, the question is will it yield and useful analysis. It likely that viewing the gender by age or ethnicity wouldn't be very informative as a number of intersections would be zero, but I'd take a guess that analysing ethnicity by age with time might be more informative? There is, if course, obviously an issue with some statistics that small data volumes might identify individuals but I think that's unlikely with the variables being looked at in this case. 

Michael Ixer ● 1004d

Ok Barbara you are an expert at missing thd point. Having had 3 family members as cabbies over the years I am well aware of all the little 'earners' shall we say. But I accept your son is the exception to the average London cabbie!

Andy Pike ● 1004d

The customer would check the meter when they get in the cab. Think you are talking about something else. People selling a vehicle could clock it, by turning it back making out the vehicle being sold only had 19000 miles where it really had 60000. I had that happen at Peugeot when I worked there, a man bought a vehicle in to sell said it only had so many on the clock, but the young salesman then found the service book under the seat and the mileage was a lot more. So the customer looked really stupid and handed some money back to the salesman.

Barbara Stevens ● 1004d

That's why I said    the unmetered bit ! Although meters can be clocked

Andy Pike ● 1004d

Andy, Black Cabs have a meter that tells how much to charge. You don't make up your own prices, also my son would get called by COM Cab to collect people. My son even took Neil Kinnock to the Houses of Parliment. He had an Accountant, who dealt with any paperwork. Well if you want to know about tips, ask a hairdresser, waiter.

Barbara Stevens ● 1004d

This is a more interesting report.With a low number of subjects it is not always possible to slice and dice. This report does have more details.The prefer not to say group varies, but around 18% for most questions on gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, transgender etc but jumps to 50% for household income. Perhaps a British thing??https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s19663/Appendix%25204%2520EQIA%2520evidence%2520base.pdf

Ed Robinson ● 1004d

The up side is that hire costs are tax deductible, no maintenance costs.Not sure how many cabbies are totally up front re tax on income including tips ( ie the un netered bit) so not all a tale of woe.

Andy Pike ● 1004d

Ed, yes, I'd agree about trade/professions being handed down, although with changes over the past decades possible less so these days? (I'm glade I didn't become a motor mechanic like my father, IT skills might be more relevant with today's latest cars!) And, agreed, statistics can be misleading without detailed analysis. It would be interesting to see these trended and "sliced and diced" by ethnicity, age and gender: still not many female drivers!

Michael Ixer ● 1004d

Ok, thanks, Barbara, I was trying to understand your post. This is one of the clearest references on LEZ/ULEZ I've found:https://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/fuels-environment/london-low-emission-zoneI guess as taxis are explicitly exempted from ULEZ but not LEZ that implies they were included in the LEZ, unsurprisingly as most were diesel with high levels of polluting emissions. Yes, perhaps vehicle manufacturers who profited should have paid compensation to those affected by emissions legislation?

Michael Ixer ● 1004d

Michael, after my son had to get rid of his Black Cab, he had to hire one off somebody he knew who had a few. You would pay about £180 a week. Spoke to somebody else before the Covid, who had to hire one it had gone up to £300 a week. So not very fair on them if they have families.

Barbara Stevens ● 1004d

Michael here is a link to the last survey that I could find 2022. 2019 link nolonger works even from TFL website.https://content.tfl.gov.uk/taxi-and-phv-demographic-stats-dec-2022.pdfNumbers could have changed drastically in two years possibly????You have to be very careful mixing up white and white British as white other are more than twice the numbers of white British in PHS. In fact It looks like these groups were then deemed "White British" to make the 8%. Very odd unless I got that wrong?Not conclusive proof as it is not the 2019 survey as mentioned.I think the white population of London is about 60%. We also know much of PHS employment is low pay, zero hour contracts, second jobs etc where as black cabs are considered a trade.I'm not convinced that explains all the difference but I think the black cab trade is often handed down and with any trade or even profession it is easier when you have family members with the knowledge (sorry) and connections.

Ed Robinson ● 1004d

Thanks, Barbara. I see this company claims to bundle in insurance. I guess renting is not dissimilar to leasing from a business model point of view?https://www.blacktaxirentals.com/black-cab-rentals

Michael Ixer ● 1004d

Michael, this is nothing to do with Sadiq Khan, this was when Boris was in, he wanted cab drivers to get new vehicles. Also van drivers.  Sadiq this time has let Black cabs off as paying 60,000 grand is a bit off. But it didn't help van drivers.

Barbara Stevens ● 1004d

Michael, black cabs are owned by you, not a company unless you hire from a black cab driver who has a few who hires them out. The money you receive from customers is yours. Expect you pay more for insurance for having passengers. If you bought a black cab, that you could not afford to pay outright, you would have to get a loan.

Barbara Stevens ● 1004d

Ed. I couldn't find a reference to black cabs being included in LEZ only that the were exempted from ULEZ because of different regulations being applied. Yes, there's a number of French drivers falling foul of LEZ/ULEZ but there's a court case pending over a possible breach of GDPR by EPC as they may not have legitimate access to the French vehicle records post Brexit. Perhaps French data privacy regulators will slap a fine of 10% of turnover on EPC :-)https://www.connexionfrance.com/article/Practical/Money/Drivers-challenge-UK-firm-s-right-to-access-French-data-over-fines(Not sure if all that article can be viewed?)

Michael Ixer ● 1004d

Yes vans and black cabs were/are included.I think they put 20p on the flat cab tariff to cover the cost. I'm not sure that helped much.Recently in the news: a French driver got fined £25,000 for driving in the LEZ due to not registering.Germany has delayed EU regs that will impact diesel sales.China introducing China 6b standards at the point of sale from January 2024 now. I think China 6b is similar to Euro 7 standards.https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/ulez-london-french-driver-mini-bus-transport-for-london-tfl-b1074310.html

Ed Robinson ● 1004d

I found this while looking for black cabs and LEZ/ULEZ: "Minicab drivers are launching a legal action against the London mayor, Sadiq Khan, accusing him of discrimination against a largely ethnic minority workforce by making them pay the congestion charge while black cab drivers, who are overwhelmingly white, will be exempt." - "Only 8% of private hire drivers are white British compared with 80% among black cab drivers, according to those who answered a survey by TfL." I'm assuming this action didn't get anywhere but the statistics are interesting? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/01/minicab-drivers-claim-discrimination-over-new-london-ultra-low-emission-zone-charge-black-cabs-exemption

Michael Ixer ● 1004d

Yes, Ed, which is what I was trying to explain in my post where the cut and pastes went badly wrong:-( But this did not affect everyone and from what I could see black cabs were treated as a special exemption, although restrictions and time limits were (from what came up in my quick searches) from 2018/19, which wasn't ten years ago. Some have had to replace vehicles but one would expect that over a period of time anyway. I think the the extra restrictions on vehicles has probably accelerated the move to leasing rather than purchasing, particularly for businesses, as that makes financial planning easier? 

Michael Ixer ● 1004d

Yes Michael, a year and a half ago they were exempt taxis . But 12 odd years ago they had to get rid of them over a certain age.

Barbara Stevens ● 1004d

Ed was ordinary sized vans and Black cabs as well.

Barbara Stevens ● 1004d

I think this is the LEZ see below.This applies to commercial vehicles. Obviously most people will not run small businesses and be aware of the various changes.It is how things are implemented that's important and in London it is very badly."The low emission zone started operating on 4 February 2008 with phased introduction of an increasingly stricter regime until 3 January 2012.The current standard for large commercial vehicles (over 3.5 tonnes) is Euro VI, increased from Euro IV on 1 March 2021. Vehicles need to meet these standards or face a penalty of £100 per day."https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_low_emission_zonehttps://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone

Ed Robinson ● 1004d

Meant their Reg was over a certain year.

Barbara Stevens ● 1004d

Freddie, anybody with a van or taxi, had to get rid of their vehicle in London area over a certain date, or pay £100 a day. That's why up by Putney Station it was very strange, but a lot of the taxi drivers happen to be something like Somalian and didn't even know where Dover House Rd was or surrounding area. A lot of ordinary taxi drivers then had to pay hundreds to hire. But strange how the other ones managed to afford a brand new taxi. My other half had to get rid of his van or pay 100 a day. Then a year and a half ago get another vehicle. So my partner is on his 3 van. When the others worked OK. Yes and on google it has very conveniently been deleted.

Barbara Stevens ● 1004d

*** ignore previous post, cut and paste went wrongWell, Barbara, as you seem to be incapable of providing the references I see taxis are exempt from ULEZ as they must use specified vehicles.  There were regulations introduced in 2018 specifying ZEC zero emissions rules for newly registered taxis and ones introduced in 2019 setting age limits for non ZEC taxis: https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/emissions-standards-for-taxis However, I didn't see anything going back ten years (2013). ULEZ was introduced in 2019, not ten years ago! And the LEZ started to be phased in in 2008 but was only for commercial vehicles. Soas far as I can see nothing forced everyone to change vehicles ten years ago, and those with non compliant vehicles can still chose to pay the charge. So I still can't see the justification for your statement. If I've missed something (which is possible as I've only had time to do a quick search) please provide the references.

Michael Ixer ● 1005d

Well, Barbara, as you seem to be incapable of providing the references I see taxis are exempt from ULEZ as they must use specified vehicles. There were regulations introduced in 2018 specifying ZEC zero emissions rules for newly registered taxis and ones introduced in 2019 setting age limits for non ZEC taxis:https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/emissions-standards-for-taxisHowever, I didn't see anything going back ten years (2013). ULEZ was introduced in 2019, not ten years ago! And the LEZ started to be phased in in 2008 but was only for commercial vehicles. So as far I as can see nothing forced Well, Barbara, as you seem to be incapable of providing the references I see taxis are exempt from ULEZ as they must use specified vehicles. There were regulations introduced in 2018 specifying ZEC zero emissions rules for newly registered taxis and ones introduced in 2019 setting age limits for non ZEC taxis:https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/emissions-standards-for-taxisHowever, I didn't see anything going back ten years (2013). ULEZ was introduced in 2019, not ten years ago! And the LEZ started to be phased in in 2008 but was only for commercial vehicles. So nothing forced everyone to change vehicles ten years ago, and those with non compliant vehicles can still chose to pay the charge. So I still can't see the justification for your statement. If I've missed something (which is possible as I've only had time to do a quick search) please provide the references.everyone to change vehicles ten years ago, and those with non compliant vehicles can still chose to pay the charge.So I still can't see the justification for your statement. If I've missed something (which is possible as I've only had time to do a quick search) please provide the references.

Michael Ixer ● 1005d

Barbara, why should I look it up? You made the statement therefore  you should justify it. I don't believe it's correct; if it is prove it! True, I don't own a car, but I do drive modern club and hire cars and follow developments in the motor industry. 

Michael Ixer ● 1005d

Freddie, my son had to get rid of his Black cab, my other half had to get rid of his van. Speak to an older black cab driver. You might get some sense out of them.

Barbara Stevens ● 1005d

@barbara. “Why just over 10 yrs ago did Boris make everybody get rid if they were over a certain age”. Really? What age was that? I think you’re making stuff up. Nobody has been made to get tid of anything.

Freddie Francis ● 1005d

Michael I can never get your posts to open on a PC!  So the shorter the link is to highlight copy and paste the easier.  I learnt how to do the short ones on a mobile!Is it a good day to bury bad news or a bad day to bury good news.  Most of the red tops are full of dreadful rubbish atm.

Philippa Bond ● 1005d

Was not talking about now, why answer my posts. I was talking about 12 yrs ago. Don't answer my posts Philippa. We know we don't have charging points.

Barbara Stevens ● 1005d

Michael,you obviously, didn't own a car or care then. Cars taxi's vans. Everything imaginable. If you don't know why answer and sound thick.  Look it up.

Barbara Stevens ● 1005d

They're the same. I just didn't remove the Google newsfeed referencing information when I copied the link after I'd opened it in Chrome. (The urls match up until the reference data.)

Michael Ixer ● 1005d

Is that the same as this?https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/05/pollutionwatch-debunking-myths-low-emission-zones-health-air-pollutionTo read highlight then use Ctrl C to copy and Ctrl P to paste into your browser.  One of the wonders of being on the World Wide Web.

Philippa Bond ● 1005d

Finding electric charging stations near you:https://www.zap-map.com/live/

Philippa Bond ● 1005d

Another view on low emission zones and, no, I haven't had time to look at the references backing up the article:https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/05/pollutionwatch-debunking-myths-low-emission-zones-health-air-pollution#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16832832535700&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fenvironment%2F2023%2Fmay%2F05%2Fpollutionwatch-debunking-myths-low-emission-zones-health-air-pollution

Michael Ixer ● 1005d

Did "Boris make everyone get rid of cars over a certain age"? Not that I'm defending Johnson, I just don't recall that. Please refresh my memory: how did he do it? what was the age limit? References are always useful!

Michael Ixer ● 1005d

but i'm not the one saying "it's all an excuse to get people to buy new cars"

Matt Palmer ● 1005d

Well,you tell me Matt.

Barbara Stevens ● 1005d

"It was all another excuse to make people have get rid of a perfectly good vehicle, they had maintained and serviced and MOT."But for what purpose?

Matt Palmer ● 1005d

ULEZ is just another scam to get people to get rid of their vehicles, nothing to do with emissions.  Why just over 10 yrs ago did Boris make everybody get rid if they were over a certain age. Now the same again, so had to use the excuse emissions. If vehicles are made with a vehicle emission problem in the first place, why not deal with Manufacturers. Then the same with Electric, you cannot drive far on a charge. A new battery cost an arm and a leg. Hardly any charging points. It was all another excuse to make people have get rid of a perfectly good vehicle, they had maintained and serviced and MOT.

Barbara Stevens ● 1005d

Not "proportionally", (dis)"proportionate". You are looking at the wrong post. Someone your age can thus be easily confused - don't poke fun at someone of mine.

Michael Winstanley ● 1006d

Will you have to take out an extra insurance for people tripping up on the pavement.

Barbara Stevens ● 1006d

Hmm, problems. Screwfix do have a 45 metre 4-gang extension cable reel.

David Ainsworth ● 1006d

About changing vehicles, no electric charging points in Norroy rd and only 3 in Chelverton Rd. So not a good idea to get electric. No large front gardens before anybody says about having your own at the front.

Barbara Stevens ● 1006d

“..of little interest to the average Londoner.”The definition was in the following sentence and I’m sure the average Londoner would be able to work it out.I can see that some people who can’t recall what cars they buy and sell within a few of months, may have a bit of difficulty.

Ed Robinson ● 1008d

What you need to do is develop and explain a  clear definition of "proportionate", otherwise your continual Marxist carping about expenditure on our transport system relative to that in South Shields is is pretty meaningless and of little interest to the average Londoner.

Michael Winstanley ● 1008d

Que?

Michael Ixer ● 1013d

Doing an Michael I here:Many years ago I argued that my travel costs were proportionally higher than a college's. Putney being approximately 5 miles to the city and my college's journey was closed to 70 miles. Yet he only paid less than 6 times my costs. Clearly he was receiving a greater subsidy.Our travel times were not that different. In those days the service to Putney was dreadful. Local trains were also often held for 10 mins or so to allow the fast trains to pass through. I have never been convinced about sucking everyone in from the various regions while local transport ia starved of resources. This again has been both policy of both parties and it is also why the ULEZ extension is wrong. Some outer London areas have dreadful public transport.

Ed Robinson ● 1013d

Michael W,HS2, Crossrail & Silvertown tunnel are three projects that spring to mind which is proof London does get investment. Is it getting enough? Probably not but there is also huge waste. Hammersmith Bridge being one example but also if busses would save £100m per 1mph increase according to one report.I'm just stating the reality that days the days of the government giving London endless pots of money have gone and are unlikely to return even with a change of government.The Marxist Corbyn era idea of having an national investment bank for infrastructure was a good one IMO. I do not think that the main parties have any policies that really address the loss of EU funding schemes.

Ed Robinson ● 1013d

Disproportionate? In proportion to what? Due to network effects, cities like London generate economic value more efficiently than their less populated surrounds. Proportionate to the level of economic activity, London doesn't receive enough and we are forever siphoning off its revenue to subsidise the regions. Run your winners and trim your losers is how any savvy portfolio manager operates. This myopic idea to do the opposite is to the nation's ultimate cost. At the very least, those of us living in London should stick out against it, even if no-one else will. The UK is not some enormous commune run on the basis of each according to his needs. Not unless one is a Marxist.

Michael Winstanley ● 1013d

"It's what the main parties want."Bailing out their friends? Just look at the fuss over franchises and the strangeness of figures over trains running up north.  It isn't just London that has been starved of infrastructure funding.

Philippa Bond ● 1013d

"So perhaps the Govt should be leant on to provide more funding  for infrastructure"The problem is London already receives a disproportionate amount of funding compared to other cities/regions."The constant bailing out of failed privatisations.."It's what the main parties want.

Ed Robinson ● 1014d

So perhaps the Govt should be leant on to provide more funding  for infrastructure.  The constant bailing out of failed privatisations is truly pathetic and very costly.  No wonder there are constant attempts to re-write history.

Philippa Bond ● 1014d

The tariff, the scrappage scheme criteria, the implementation date, the exemptions, the areas included are all Khan's.How policy is implemented is as important as the policy itself especially when it comes to an retrospective regressive tax.The difference between the two politicians or even parties is not much at all. Indeed on policy Labour tends to be more stubborn and not bend at all!

Ed Robinson ● 1017d

So Grant Shapps called for an expansion in the ULEZ - so he got what he wanted! Good of Khan to follow Conservative policies :-)https://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk/2023/04/20/travelcards-axed-transport-for-london-consider-options/

Michael Ixer ● 1018d

Yes. I read that there have been 5000 cancelled tickets in the last 6 months. In addition there must be more than to challenge.

Michael Winstanley ● 1018d